Psychic magic and Spell Resistance


Rules Discussion

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kestral287 wrote:
The magic itself-- Psychic, Arcane, or Divine-- is the same. It's HOW the magic is obtained that is different. All manipulate the same fundamental power.

Sadly the Sorcerer fundamentally manipulates power the way they are representing Psychic power in more or less the exact same way. Again making the Psychic "Magic" system, redundant.

Shiroi wrote:
You wanna strip the defense of every one of my monsters? Yours is gone too. My lvl 18 fireball? Psychic Resistance doesn't block it. Make your massive damage fort save.

Yeah, kinda the point. They don't mix and challenge each other. As if most creatures or PC's posses SR either, to be able to use against that self same fireball?

That really isn't exactly a problem.

Psyren wrote:
@ Gwiber - Psychic Spells are still Spells. They are not a completely different type of energy as psionics were,

Which is my point. I wanted it to be a differnt form of power.

Calling it "Psychic" is the mistake in my opinion. Psychic and Magic are two different things. And should have been represented as such.

Dark Archive

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I know what you wanted, but even when it WAS different (i.e. psionics), they did not extend that difference to SR except as a variant rule, and one they advised DMs not to use at that. So even if it was something other than a form of "magic" - they would have been extremely unlikely to remove that restriction. And judging by this thread, only one or a handful of people would even want them to.

Grand Lodge

OK, so here is the long and short of this issue. Gwiber, you would like a whole different system that would make the "Psychic and Occult" different systems than Arcane and Divine, and you propose that this can be done with just a few side bars in one book. I take it that this while it might be an over simplification, but I'm pretty sure it boils down to that.

OK, I really don't think that's what Paizo had in mind, nor was it a product that I was looking for, but it's and idea. It would have to be a big trick to get me to buy a book like that because I like how the systems work right now and thematically I like the systems to mesh well together, and I think that given how many people have approved of the general idea of the character classes shown, even some sharp critics seemed to be on board for the most part.

Personally, I'd consider writing this all down for a personal campaign and letting us know how it all turns out.


Fnipernackle wrote:
If you want to go the balance route, if you take out spell resistance hindering psychic magic, the abilities are going to have to be reduced to the point they are terrible and no one wants to take them.

Why not as compromised:

Most creatures have SR -5 vs psychic magic.

But psychic creatures have SR +5.

It makes the rules different, but yet still relatively balanced.


At least that would be a blanket rule instead of something requiring changes to every stat block. I could see someone playing it that way. It doesn't really fit the kind of magic Paizo is trying to present, but it might better represent the kind of thing OP seems to want from psychic magic.

You'd have to nail down what a psychic creature is. A creature with class levels in psychic? A creature with the psychic subtype?


Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me to have something that looks and functions like magic be something completely different. In universe, magic is the force called upon to warp reality. They call upon it in different ways, whether it would be through in an internal source (Sorcerers), study and understanding (Wizards), or beseeching gods (Cleric), as well as others.

So, you introduce Psychic power. It's about manipulating and warping reality through thought and concentration. Even if it didn't use spell slots, it would be accomplishing the same things as other sources of magic. Why does psychic power get to be it's own, separate thing in a setting rife with magic?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gwiber wrote:
Calling it "Psychic" is the mistake in my opinion. Psychic and Magic are two different things. And should have been represented as such.

No offense...but says who? Why is your definition of psychic the only correct one?

Random House Dictionary wrote:

psychic

[sahy-kik]
adjective, Also, psychical
1. of or pertaining to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical).
2. Psychology. pertaining to or noting mental phenomena.
3. outside of natural or scientific knowledge; spiritual.
4. of or pertaining to some apparently nonphysical force or agency:
psychic research; psychic phenomena.
5. sensitive to influences or forces of a nonphysical or supernatural nature.

1855-60; < Greek psȳchikós of the soul.

Spiritual forces, spiritual knowledge, nonphysical forces, sounds a lot like magic to me...

Historically, the word psychic arose because people wanted to pretend that supernatural forces could have 'scientific' explanations. Ghosts, mediums, moving things about with 'ectoplasm', and so on and so forth. Ultimately, it's just another approach to magic, trying to move away from the less reputable label of magic and superstition. It started with spiritualism and moved on to New Age stuff and has spread itself about since then.

Personally, I do not believe in either magic or its attempt to clean itself up and pass itself off as being reputable, advertising itself as psychic activities. I certainly enjoy science fiction and fantasy, and have seen both portrayed in many ways, often interchangeably, and on occasion both together as separate entities within the same system. Ultimately, since I believe in neither, it is up to each continuity to decide what magic is and is not, and what psychic abilities are and are not, and if they are even different or simply the same thing under two different labels.

Perhaps you believe in both, and thus have particular definitions for what one is, and the other is not. Or perhaps you believe in one as being real, and the other one as not being real. I cannot say, but even if you do, Pathfinder presents a fictitious world, even if it contains a variant of our own within its confines, and I think most people would agree that we cannot expect a perfect representation of reality from it. Thus, it is not restricted to whatever you might view as being the true order of things, presenting instead their own cosmology of demons, devils, angels, eldritch horrors from space, and other such things.

On the other hand, if you are simply taking your cue from certain works of fiction...I will simply say that fiction on this subject varies quite a bit. Certainly, sometimes they are not the same thing...but often enough, the way magic itself is portrayed is not identical to the way Pathfinder portrays magic, given the wide number of magic systems presented in various works of fiction, ranging from summoning demons to advanced psionics to creating living magical programs to poetry to calling upon the gods to simply imposing one's will on reality with a command.

Now, if, on the other hand, you should say that you personally prefer psychic abilities and magical abilities to be portrayed as being different in nature, and that you would prefer Paizo to have represented them in a way where they were extremely different powers, that's certainly fine. Everyone is entitled to personal preferences, I certainly have my own (albeit not on this particular topic) that I sometimes wish Pathfinder and its default setting were more like. But saying they are different things...well, that supposes a standard definition of either, which - particularly in fiction - seems lacking.

Of course, if you would like to go into more depth on your own personal definitions of what is and is not magical and what is and is not psychical, it might be interesting, though I certainly question the authoritativeness of such definitions.

I apologize if I have offended.


I don't believe in magic. ghosts or pretty much anything in a supernatural form. But belief really isn't the point in RL times.

The difference in magic and Psychic is one of source.

Magic is the manipulation of an ambient existing energy through various means from outside oneself. Learning. granting it to you. or natural talent to manipulate it. The magic user doesn't create the energy himself, he only uses it.

Psychic energy is the force generated, manipulated, and controlled by the body and mind. Created by the individual using it themselves.

There in lies the fundamental difference, and why I see and want the two forms of power to be separate entities.

Taken in that vein, it makes total sense the defensive mechanisms that are naturally inherent to stop one, would not be effective on the other, or at least not nearly as effective.

Spell Resistance, to me, is an inherent and natural (relatively speaking) Resistance to the effects of magical energy. To me, it should have no bearing on Mental Energy that does not rely on the Magical force.

It's not an active resistance you have brought forth to defend yourself, which I COULD see being a defense between the two forms of energy.

That's why I dislike Spell Resistance having any bearing on Psychic power.


If, they are wanting to say that the Psychic uses their mind and emotions to reach out and manipulate magical energy then the class as present makes sense to me.

A Psychic has learned to use his mind or was born with or has learned the ability to use his mind to manipulate magical energy and cast spells.

But you now what? That? Is a Wizard or Sorcerer. One has learned how to manipulate magic through knowledge. The other was born with the power to do so intrinsically without having to learn it or call for it.

There's no need for the Psychic class to even exist. It could just be labeled as an School for a Wizard and a Bloodline for Sorcerer. Then you could list all the various Psychic spells as things only those two things could access, only their form of training, or lucky circumstance of Birth allows them to access those abilities.

Really making them exclusive to that school or Bloodline wouldn't be required. In the Sorcerer's case, you would just get those powers like you do any bloodline power. Not sure how you would limit it in the case of a Wizard. You could just keep it as a pure Sorcerer bloodline, and keep the Psychic stuff as Bloodline powers and Spells, limiting it that way to be only accessible through those means.

You were either born with the capacity to use it, or you weren't.


Actually its simple. Create a Psychic School of Magic (Like Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy etc.) And just have the powers groups already listed be sub schools (like subdomains) granting them at certain levels like all the other schools do. That turns the Psychic Wizard out perfectly fine.

You can also just create a Sorcerer Psychic Bloodline as I suggested before. Everything is covered, and the fact that a Psychic is manipulating magic makes perfect sense.

And there's not any need for a Psychic class.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But why can't the magic that comes from within still be roughly the same sort of cosmic energy that everyone else uses? To my knowledge, we don't know the source of magic in the Pathfinder setting, or, indeed, if there even is a single source of magic. For all we know, there could be countless sources of magic that people draw on rather than a singular source...or it could be that the source of all magic is various souls. The souls of the gods, the souls of planets (suggested to perhaps suggest in some Golarion material), the souls of planes (given that at least some planes seem to be capable of independent action), and the souls of mortals could all be possible sources, the energy being similar, though utilized differently via thought and emotion components. And if it's the same general form of energy...then it certainly explains why spell resistance resists spells regardless of source, and why psychic spells are mostly in the same format as normal spells.

Scarab Sages

Why is there a needs for a distinction between Arcane and Divine magic then? Is there any real difference between the cleric praying over a holy symbol to a god and wizard praying over a book to try to absorb the formula?

What is the difference between an oracle spontaneously casting a burning hands spell learned from his curse and sorcerer spontaneously casting a burning hands spell manifested from his bloodline that he sees as a curse?

It's nothing but flavor. All magic is magic regardless of source, and it all follows the same rules.

Where arcane magic is manipulating the energy of the universe, and divine magic is manipulating the energy of the gods, Psychic Magic is manipulating the forces of yourself, your soul, and life.

Playtest Doc pg. 59 wrote:


Wizards study ancient tomes to unlock arcane secrets of the
universe, and clerics pray to distant deities to grant them
divine power, but there is a third, more esoteric kind of
magic, connected to every creature’s composite being, from
the conscious mind to the deepest desire, from the life force
to the spirit, from the very soul to the cosmic self. Those
who use psychic magic are easily mistaken for practitioners
of arcane and divine traditions.

...

Psychic magic originates from the distinctive qualities of
the caster’s composite being, rather than through arcane
formulas or rote supplication to divine entities.

The source is different, and the components used are different. But it's still the same force being applied to the world, and that's why Spell Resistance still works on psychic spells.


Gwiber wrote:

The simplest, easiest answer?

Add one small stat box.

Psychic Resistance. [PR]

Just like not everyone has Spell resistance as a stat, not everyone has Psychic Resistance as a stat.

In the Psychic Spells stat block you put Psychic Resistance instead of Spell resistance. Note in the other spells for the Classes that use Psychic Spells that any reference to Spell Resistance is Psychic Resistance instead.

Saves remains the same as they always have.

It's a very small rules addition to make along with all the other special abilities and feats that come with the Psychic classes.

And it shows a difference in Spells and Psychic powers, without lumping them into the same category, or having to add a host of new rules.

realy you want to go back a change four these bestiary worth of stat blocks....

That right there should end the whole discussion. BAD IDEA!!!!!


IF we go by the thought that a Psychic is applying his mind to affect magical energy, and not the mental energy he creates himself. Then yes.. Spell resistance works. The Psychic is still manipulating the same force that other casters use.

Which still makes him... a Sorcerer or Wizard. They are doing, the exact, same, thing. Using their knowledge or inborn abilities to manipulate magical energy.

The Psychic just happens to use a different manner of manipulating said energy.

But he is still, just a caster, and should still fall under the auspice of being either Wizard or Sorcerer, not a special class unto itself.

It's about the same effect as taking the lockpicking and trap skills out of the Rogue class, and calling it another class entirely that doesn't get precision damage.

You could, but why the hell would you bother? Anyone who sees it could just as easily take Rogue and get All the benefits instead.

Turning Psychic into a school of magic, allows you to do the very same thing. Pick it as a school as a wizard, and get all the benefits of it. as well a the benefits of being a wizard to boot. K+Just like being an Evocationist does.


The Psychic is manipulating a different kind of magical energy. The distinction between him and the Sorcerer is the same as the distinction between the Sorcerer and the Oracle.

Not really sure why that's difficult to understand. There are three types of magic now: Arcane Magic, Psychic Magic, and Divine Magic.


Technically all magic comes from the same sources I would imagine, it is simply a different means of focusing. An Arcane user focuses through formulaic repetition. A Divine user focus through faith. A Psychic user focus through concentration.


"Psychic Magic" is the point. It means psychic manipulation of magical energy in the case they are showing in the Occult book.

Manipulation of actual Psychic Energy itself, not Magical Energy, would require an entirely different rule set.

And thus my original issue. If the Psychic was meant to be manipulating real psychic energy, not magical energy, then Spell Resistance wouldn't have any effect on the Psychics powers.

As they are now, the class is nothing more than an oddly glorified Wizard or Sorcerer. They are doing the very same thing those classes are doing. Thus, my contention they should just be schools and bloodlines for those classes.


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Why can "Psychic Energy" not be inherently magical? Why does "real" psychic energy have to be nonmagical in any way? To be honest, at this point you're coming off as rather arrogant, as "This is The Way Things Are, and since Pazio hasn't lined things up with The Way Things Are the designers should scrap the work they did and just make this book boring." Instead, you really need to recognize that you have an opinion, one of many, and one that is at odds with what Pazio is clearly trying to do. And you need to accept that. You don't have to change your opinion, by any means. But you do need to realize that there are other opinions out there that are exactly as legitimate as yours.

And... just making it a school doesn't really work, no. I mean, it could be made to work, if one really wanted to, but there are a number of mechanics introduced with Psychic Magic that makes defaulting it back to Arcane difficult. Undercasting rules would make it the first time the Sorcerer could definitively laugh in the Wizard's face about something though, so there's that.

That said, good money we get a Psychic archetype for the Sorcerer.


Would it help to just call Spell REsistance "Supernatural resistance" ? then it wouldn't have any issues to any of it no? It's all superal natural in nature and all.

Grand Lodge

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Zwordsman wrote:
Would it help to just call Spell REsistance "Supernatural resistance" ? then it wouldn't have any issues to any of it no? It's all superal natural in nature and all.

Except that Supernatural Abilities ignore SR, so that wouldn't work in the slightest.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Would it help to just call Spell REsistance "Supernatural resistance" ? then it wouldn't have any issues to any of it no? It's all superal natural in nature and all.
Except that Supernatural Abilities ignore SR, so that wouldn't work in the slightest.

thats why i specified Superal Natural. not the SU game term but actual "protection agianst the not natural" There is probably another generalized term I just don't know. but basically something like that.

Grand Lodge

Zwordsman wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Would it help to just call Spell REsistance "Supernatural resistance" ? then it wouldn't have any issues to any of it no? It's all superal natural in nature and all.
Except that Supernatural Abilities ignore SR, so that wouldn't work in the slightest.
thats why i specified Superal Natural. not the SU game term but actual "protection agianst the not natural" There is probably another generalized term I just don't know. but basically something like that.

If you change the name to Supernatural Resistance, you'd have to also change the name of Supernatural Abilities to something else, otherwise you have the situation of Supernatural Resistance not applying to Supernatural Abilities, which it would, based on the name.

Silver Crusade

Things really get murky when it comes to specific spells, how for example is a psychic fireball different from an arcane or divine fireball? I mean different in a way, that is relevant to the creature getting fireballed or the caster trying to counter it.

Fluff and some limited class internal rules are one thing, but a game system tends to suffer, when it has to many systems that affect each other.

Systems like feats and panache are a great example, only the player of the class needs to understand them, and keep and eye on them.

Things like critical hits are another matter, a number of abilities interact with or trigger of them, so they decided to limit the ways characters can enhance them (like the keen weapon and improved critical).

If for example an arcane golem was only immune to arcane and divine spells, it would be an easy encounter for a psychic caster and or course, this works both ways.

Of course that is not really how it would work on the table, arcane casters would just get some psychic magic items to deal their golems and vice versa.

The game as written, and published doesn't benefit from this distinction, it will already be quite annoying for a psychic character playing older adventure paths and only finding arcane and divine scrolls, even if he has all those spells on his spell list.

Sovereign Court

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Gwiber wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

None whatsoever. You end up with an annoying sidebar for every monster's stat block like they did in 1st Edition D&D... every balor, pit fiend, elminsters and black staves had a humongous psionic points reserve and "iron tower" ratings just to prevent cheesed out prionic PCs to lay them flat in one round (because one regular round of 1 minute meant ten 6 seconds rounds of psionics).

Adding ONE stat, and a small one at that [PR] and copy pasting the SR text and replacing SR with PR would not suck nor would it add any major rules to the game.

And it would go worlds away to giving Psychic powers an impact difference over just being another form of 'Magic'.

And the difference really isn't that onerous. All it is is adding a different from of special Resistance, which is what Sr is in the first place. a special resistance that isn't common to most creatures anyway.

Just how many monsters are really meant to be psychic anyway, that aren't going to be introduced or reintroduced in the new book?

It seems highly likely to me they will do what they have always done; if something new applies to something old, they will say so in the book.

I beg to differ. If adding PR "would not add any major rules to the game" then why are you even requesting it to be added? It's much simpler for the psionics book to simply list every new psionic power with a Spell Resistance entry and preface the psionic powers section with an explanation along the lines of "Albeit not spells, all psionic powers are considered spell-like abilities for the purposes of interacting with Spell Resistance, and therefore each power contains an entry for Spell Resistance"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shiroi wrote:
I see a lot of people saying it would be severely unbalanced to have SR not apply to psychic spells (pardon, abilities) but the big problem I'm seeing here is few people bringing up the reverse: as a DM, go ahead. You wanna strip the defense of every one of my monsters? Yours is gone too. My lvl 18 fireball? Psychic Resistance doesn't block it. Make your massive damage fort save.

I did not bring it up, because I'm not fond of the Gygaxian preference of balancing one out of the park aspect with another. I prefer the elegance of transparency.

Sovereign Court

Also, I don't think Charles Xavier could mind control Doctor Strange; could Doctor Strange cast a spell that mind controls Charles Xavier? probably not, but maybe: magic seems to trump everything in the Marvel Universe (or DC for that matter, as magic seems to be the only thing that can hurt Superman... he has some kind of built-in defense against telepathy/mind control granted by his kryptonian genetics...)

Case in point, the Illuminati had Doctor Strange mind wipe Captain America after Xavier died. So in Marvel magic seems to be king, telepathy being only a small portion of what magic can achieve. Magic can also apply force on objects (telekinesis) and charm person into thinking they're your friend (mind control).

So if you're gonna make a whole new psionics class, I don't think it should have the wide range of possibilities afforded to magic users. At best, they should just be another brand of spellcaster with their own spell list, which would overlap with all other spell lists (so on their spell list, for example, could be a selection of spells from the wiz/sor, cleric, druid and ranger lists, and a bunch of new ones that could also be just for them and/or for other existing spellcasting classes, e.g. Mind Blade, psion 2, sor/wiz 3; Autorejuvenation, psion 1; Life Detection, psion 3, cleric 4; etc. etc. etc.

Doing this not only provide a balanced approach to psionics, but also provides a commercial value for the book for those sworn never to roll up a psion in their game (i.e. player: hey, this book has psion class yay! DM: I don't like psionics; player: can my wizard use the new wizard spells listed in there? DM: sure)


There are a couple of ways I see to resolve it one is to errata SR to be supernatural resistance applying to spells and psi equally. Another is to include the 3.x psi and magic are different side box that outlined the additional math needed if the DM wants that flavor of game. To add PR would mean every monster printed would need to be gone back over with a should this get PR question, then a huge errata made. I don't see the last one as very likely though.


Thefuzzy1 wrote:
To add PR would mean every monster printed would need to be gone back over with a should this get PR question, then a huge errata made. I don't see the last one as very likely though.

Not at all.

I mentioned this already (more than once).

New rules appear in new books all the time that have backwards ramifications.

How they have handled it so far is to either add a section that shows the changes to the past writings as a part of a chapter. Or just insert a sidebar that talks about it and how to apply it, and then they move on with the rest of the book.

In books that come after, the new rule is just included as par for the course.

They've already done it many times over, and will do it again in newer books.

IF they were forced to rewrite and reissue every book when they added a new rule item, we'd never stop buying books and would quickly get more than a little miffed with Paizo.

Sovereign Court

Thefuzzy1 wrote:
There are a couple of ways I see to resolve it one is to errata SR to be supernatural resistance applying to spells and psi equally. Another is to include the 3.x psi and magic are different side box that outlined the additional math needed if the DM wants that flavor of game. To add PR would mean every monster printed would need to be gone back over with a should this get PR question, then a huge errata made. I don't see the last one as very likely though.

Exactly. Every single iteration of psionics came around the end of a D&D edition, heralding the coming death of the ruleset. If we don't want psionics to herald the demise of Pathfinder, it needs to be done right and it needs to be perfectly balanced with other classes and spells. None of that "3.X psi and magic are different" option B.S... that just won't do.

Sovereign Court

Gwiber wrote:
Thefuzzy1 wrote:
To add PR would mean every monster printed would need to be gone back over with a should this get PR question, then a huge errata made. I don't see the last one as very likely though.

Not at all.

I mentioned this already (more than once).

New rules appear in new books all the time that have backwards ramifications.

How they have handled it so far is to either add a section that shows the changes to the past writings as a part of a chapter. Or just insert a sidebar that talks about it and how to apply it, and then they move on with the rest of the book.

In books that come after, the new rule is just included as par for the course.

They've already done it many times over, and will do it again in newer books.

IF they were forced to rewrite and reissue every book when they added a new rule item, we'd never stop buying books and would quickly get more than a little miffed with Paizo.

Examples please. And if you find some, explain how they provide significance to this discussion. You are advocating a new kind of magic that bypasses the existing magic we all know and love. Please show us how this was done in Pathfinder in the past and how that played out.


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I can see thematically psionics being different than magic...maybe even psychic being different...thematically.

However, rule wise making SR not work for psionics/psychics is asking for a lot of trouble.

House rule it in your game if you don't like it.


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I'm missing the point here. I must be. All magic users, Psychics included, manipulate the nebulous and frankly difficult-to-define forces of the universe. Psychic magic might be more mysterious because they're harder to identify. But at the same time, they manipulate magic in another way from others. This should, AT MOST, make for a few awkward in-game conversations. But if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to playing my Witch who disguises himself as a wizard by using a Book of Shadows (or as I discussed with my DM, a family history book that has a good many scrolls bound in with the pages) to pass for a spellbook. Just saying that fluff and crunch are two different animals, and if you can't role play your roll play, then this isn't an issue with the system.


Once again - looking at this discussion - there really need to be two or three options:

1) Default option: Occult powers are a form of magic, just with a different name - so, a few effects bypass SR but if an effect CAN be resisted, SR works for resisting it.

2) Psychics are Not Magic-Users Option: Most powers cannot be resisted except by those with strong wills or specialized training; includea Psychic/Occult Resistance stat, with a listing of the types of creatures that gain (or fail to gain) it, and how to determine it for PCs if applicable.

3) More complex hybrid options: Spells are Spells but some Psychic/Occult abilities ARE Different; are not "spells" but manifestations of some sort. Clearly list which abilities can bypass SR, everything else either gets a blanket Class notation that "These abilities typically bypass SR" or a specific notation to that effect and everything else really IS a spell, despite the different terminology.

Leave the default option for PFS materials (except maybe a rare Occult-Only scenario perhaps) and all official publications but present the other options for those groups that feel they are needed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As a counter-point, SR affects divine and arcane spells the exact same way. A cleric channeling the divine will and power of her god has to contend with the same exact type of resistance as a wizard slinging fireballs that he learned how to do from researching how to manipulate arcane whatever you flavor it as. Arcanoids?

Why does SR exist in the first place, instead of supposedly resistant creatures just having really good saves? Balance, plain and simple.

If they ever team up with Disney and release a series of books based around the Jedi, who use force powers as a result of their midiclorians, I'm fairly certain the Jedi will be subject to SR as well. Watto has SR, I guess. How 'bout that.


Maybe Wattoo does - or maybe he has some sort of "Force Resistance"... :D

Personally, since Psychic/Occult abilities are, effectively, powered by the CASTER not the Gods (i.e. Divine Magic) or some Secret/Esoteric Knowledge (i.e. Arcane Magic), I could see an opposed die mechanic used to resist their powers but that would be opening a whole different kettle of fish, adding complexity that an already complicated system really doesn't need...

Though as written, the Spiritualist is using true magic, just in a different form. The Kineticist may be using true magic or doing something very different; it could be interpreted either way. The Medium is using power from outside, but manifesting it internally via the spirit - this could be "true" magic or something else entirely - again, subject to interpretation. The Psychic IS doing something different, using their own inner strength to warp reality and might merit a different mechanic *for groups that want this level of detail/granularity*.

And I really would prefer the rules to suggest: "We prefer to keep things simple. However, if you want to add complexity to make this system different from traditional magic, here's how we'd suggest you go about it. This is an OPTION and one that we won't use in our products going forward but..."


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Also, I don't think Charles Xavier could mind control Doctor Strange;

Xavier doesn't seem to use much "mind control" anyway - but he can attack a magic-user or psionic on the Astral Plane and his manifested weapons and armor usually function identically to theirs.

But addressing the specific question It's more a matter of SPECIALIZATION than UTILITY - I suspect Strange would have proper Feats or in-place spells to block pure psionics (or may have items that do so - perhaps the Eye of Agamoto mixes magic and psi or some such).
Quote:
(or DC for that matter, as magic seems to be the only thing that can hurt Superman... he has some kind of built-in defense against telepathy/mind control granted by his kryptonian genetics...)

I suspect that goes to the "Psychic powers (including Lensman lenses (Color) Lantern power rings) are advanced scientific things - as Kryptonians are physically advanced (though only under a Yellow Sun) they can resist this - magic bypasses science and they can't"

Just a different philosophy - which is again why I think the book should default to "Psychic powers, except as explicitly noted, are subject to Spell Resistance as a default. We have some options available (present options) if you want to play it differently but that is the default..."


They might put an option in a side bar. Possibly something on the order of, "Optionally, any Creature with Psychic or mental powers, such as an Illithid, will have a Psychic Resistance of they would normally have Spell Resistance. Spell Resistance works at Half effect against Psychic effects while Psychic Resistance similarly is half as effective against other spells."

I can not see Psychic powers completely bypassing other types of resistance, but see that resistance as less effective is possible.


Realistically you are all dancing around the fact that describing Psychic Powers as a Mental energy instead of Magical energy, and having a Psychic Resistance stat for them instead of Spell Resistance is NOT a huge or onerous leap to make.

A sidebar listing Psychic Creatures, and saying "Their listed spells are Psychic instead, is not a huge or onerous addition to put in a book either. Nor is leaving them as magical if you aren't using the book to begin with

Using the standard spell lists they ALREADY tell you to use and saying "Add Psychic descriptor" to them isn't a huge or difficult thing either. Just means when the issue comes up, "Use PR instead of SR".

It doesn't require a reworking of the rules in anyway.

Any comment that this is making a Psychic too powerful is ridiculous.


If it's so trivial, why bother doing it? What's wrong with how it is now?


Based on my perception of how the power is generated? Spell Resistance to something hat isn't magic (Which I think it should not be) Makes no sense.

And as I have said, if it IS psychic manipulation of magical energy. then this class should actually be a school of magic and a bloodline.


Gwiber wrote:

Realistically you are all dancing around the fact that describing Psychic Powers as a Mental energy instead of Magical energy, and having a Psychic Resistance stat for them instead of Spell Resistance is NOT a huge or onerous leap to make.

A sidebar listing Psychic Creatures, and saying "Their listed spells are Psychic instead, is not a huge or onerous addition to put in a book either. Nor is leaving them as magical if you aren't using the book to begin with

Using the standard spell lists they ALREADY tell you to use and saying "Add Psychic descriptor" to them isn't a huge or difficult thing either. Just means when the issue comes up, "Use PR instead of SR".

It doesn't require a reworking of the rules in anyway.

Any comment that this is making a Psychic too powerful is ridiculous.

The power concern depends on a number of things, but it's largely based from a similar occurrence in 3.5. What happened there was that there was an optional ruleset divorcing psionics from magic, and within it psychics were insanely more powerful than mages. This had to do in no small part with the opposition: the number of creatures that could effectively handle psionics was much smaller than the number of creatures that could deal with magic.

To an extent, it's a knee-jerk reaction to expect the same thing. But if we don't get the same basic volume of "creatures with PR" and "creatures with SR", and that volume isn't consistent over the course of a campaign, then a balance issue occurs.

For example. Let's say, arbitrarily, that Dragons keep their solid SR, but have less PR. A GM tells you "Hey, I want to run a game where you'll be fighting off an army of dragons, build some characters at level 12".

Well. If I'm in the mood to slaughter me a bunch of dragons... I'm going to make me a Psychic character rather than a Wizard, aren't I? Dragons can't effectively defend themselves from me, so I can Psychic Crush them all into oblivion.

Or the other way. The GM says "Hey, I want to run a game where we slaughter a bunch of these new Astral Doom Lizards". And the Astral Doom Lizard- ADL from here out- has high PR, but low SR, but is generally comparable to a dragon. Well. I don't know about you, but I'm going to be over here rolling up a Sorcerer and start transforming Astral Doom Lizards into geckos.

Either is possible, but historically the first situation-- psychics eating dragons for breakfast-- was what happened to 3.5 when the two were separated. This is the reason it wasn't a recommended ruleset there.

The only way to maintain the balance is to keep the relative moderation of PR and SR creatures equivalent, and give a GM an equivalent reason to use them within a campaign. And the simplest way to do that? Have creatures deal with both with a single stat. That way every GM, in every campaign, will have the exact same balance of resistance between the Psychic and the Sorcerer.

It's also a design space concern. Printing the mass of Psychic creatures needed requires page space that could otherwise be spent on Other Cool Things, and even that sidebar-- which has to cover the several hundred monsters in the Bestiaries-- takes up a lot of design space, and is clunky and unwieldy to use. Unless there's real, significant, and major benefit to doing so, it's a waste of design time and book space.

So there are two excellent reasons for not splitting SR and PR.

And on another note, Strange vs. Xavier is not a fair fight. Strange does whatever the hell he wants, like stopping time or watching the creation of the universe, and no piddly X-Man is going to stop him. If you're going to compare psychics to magics in Marvel, at least use characters on the same power scale.


Gwiber wrote:

Based on my perception of how the power is generated? Spell Resistance to something hat isn't magic (Which I think it should not be) Makes no sense.

And as I have said, if it IS psychic manipulation of magical energy. then this class should actually be a school of magic and a bloodline.

In a world where magical energy courses through everything, warping reality and everything within it, why should "psychic" being a different kind of energy. That doesn't even make sense from a world building perspective.

"I warp reality through study and manipulation of magical forces."

"I warp reality through the magical energy in my blood."

"I warp reality because of the magic power granted by my god."

"I warp reality by manipulating a completely different energy with my mind."

It's inconsistent with everything else in the world and thus I'm arguing that it's not just bad rules design, but bad world building design. There are enough differences with the psychic between how it casts (Thought and Emotion) to special spells and even just some basic class abilities.


Gwiber wrote:

Based on my perception of how the power is generated? Spell Resistance to something hat isn't magic (Which I think it should not be) Makes no sense.

And as I have said, if it IS psychic manipulation of magical energy. then this class should actually be a school of magic and a bloodline.

You may not think it should be magic, but it's exceedingly clear from the text, the design team's posts and other statements, and even the name "psychic magic" that the concept Paizo is portraying with these rules is, in fact, magic. That's not changing.

Get over it.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Thefuzzy1 wrote:
There are a couple of ways I see to resolve it one is to errata SR to be supernatural resistance applying to spells and psi equally. Another is to include the 3.x psi and magic are different side box that outlined the additional math needed if the DM wants that flavor of game. To add PR would mean every monster printed would need to be gone back over with a should this get PR question, then a huge errata made. I don't see the last one as very likely though.
Exactly. Every single iteration of psionics came around the end of a D&D edition, heralding the coming death of the ruleset. If we don't want psionics to herald the demise of Pathfinder, it needs to be done right and it needs to be perfectly balanced with other classes and spells. None of that "3.X psi and magic are different" option B.S... that just won't do.

This made me laugh out loud. Blaming the demise of rules editions on psionics is such an.... Well it amused me in its "ignorance is bliss" point of view.


Gwiber wrote:

Not everything is about balance. Or SHOULD be about Balance.

Sometimes the world is "sh*t" and bad stuff happens. Sometimes there are things you just can;t deal with under a normal circumstance.

Psychic power, ISN'T spell power. That's kinda the point.

You make it rare, and unique.

It needs to be different from Magic. Removing Spell Resistance from the equation goes a long way to doing that. Showing that it is, not, magic.

It is psychic.

When did I say "everything" needs to be about balance?

My point is only that without some checks in place things can get out of control which can in turn ruin the story. The mechanics are there to serve the story. Make sure they do so, and psychic magic, is still magic. There are stories of what happened with psionics when GM's did not allow for SR to work against it. The games did not go well. If you want to try to be the exception then go ahead and run it without SR.


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Gwiber wrote:
If the Psychic was meant to be manipulating real psychic energy, not magical energy

Wait, real psychic energy is a thing now? Blow me down!

No I mean it. Blow me down. With your mind. That would be awesome.


Gwiber wrote:

The simplest, easiest answer?

Add one small stat box.

Psychic Resistance. [PR]

Just like not everyone has Spell resistance as a stat, not everyone has Psychic Resistance as a stat.

In the Psychic Spells stat block you put Psychic Resistance instead of Spell resistance. Note in the other spells for the Classes that use Psychic Spells that any reference to Spell Resistance is Psychic Resistance instead.

Saves remains the same as they always have.

It's a very small rules addition to make along with all the other special abilities and feats that come with the Psychic classes.

And it shows a difference in Spells and Psychic powers, without lumping them into the same category, or having to add a host of new rules.

You can do this also and many do this with psionics. Just remember that it is more bookkeeping, and psionic(only mentioning this because your idea will have the same problems unless you take similar measures to work against it) monsters do not have SR if you do not use the idea of the "special magic" actually magic. You will have to keep track of which creatures have SR, and which ones have PR. If you throw in a monster with PR, and one person has actual magic, they will ignore the PR, which is defense that is part of a creature's CR. Just so you know I am speaking from experience, and person conversations. This is not just theory craft, and it is not just my games that have dealt with this.


Now that I think about it, I had this conversation not too long ago. Read this thread. It brings up a quiet a few potential problems. click me.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Every single iteration of psionics came around the end of a D&D edition, heralding the coming death of the ruleset.

I don't have a dog in the main fight, but I have to say this is utter hogwash. According to a quick couple of minutes Googling:

1e: Psionics in core books
2e: Complete Psionics Handbook in 1991, 2 years after core books
3.0: Psionics Handbook in 2001, 1 year after core books
3.5: Expanded Psionics Handbook in 2004, 1 year after core books
4e: PHB3 in 2010, 2 years after core books

Every single on of them was closer to the start of the edition than the end, even 3.0 which only lasted three years.


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This whole thing reeks of this to me.

Pew.

But, I do have to agree a little: I didn't see ANYTHING special in the Psychic class. At all.

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