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51 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata.
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There's one big flaw that I doubt no-one else has noticed, and that is the fact that Bolt Ace's fluff-text says "…there is a class of gunslingers that never soil their hands with powder or feel the sting of gun smoke.", yet they still do get proficiency with firearms, the gunsmith class feature and they lose guntraining, replacing it with crossbow training. The latter I'm ok with, but the first problem I just can't comprehend with. What does this archetype do anything with gun proficiency and gunsmithing when the rest of the archetype is all about crossbows? I mean, come on, some consistency, please?
Just a few suggestions to replace the proficiency and gunsmith features:
The Bolt Ace could get a free masterwork crossbow of any type when they begin their career, and instead maybe receive proficiency with ALL types of crossbows. Including exotic crossbows.
And if that's not enough to satisfy balance, give free rapid reload for the chosen type of crossbow you picked as your free masterwork crossbow.
Feel free to mark this for FAQ, or if there's already a thread addressing the issue, let me know.
I'll admit it might just as well be an editing mistake, something being forgotten from the final book.
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Seems silly.
I want this archetype to work.
Me too, and in fact, I recommend that all like-minded readers would give your own suggestions how to fix this. Who knows, maybe it really wasn't thought about and someone gets his or her suggestion through?.
They are also still proficient with all Firearms, but not all Crossbows.
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
It has been noted once or twice before.
I'm going with proficiency with all crossbows in lieu of firearms, and Rapid Reload instead of Gunsmith.
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Well, I believe it is FAQ worthy.
I did point out that proficiency issue, didn't I? :)
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I am not sure how I missed that.
haha. yea a few threads but I'mma faq this one like I did those.
Similiar changes to mine, all xbow proficiences are a must in my opinion, I also changed for a battered xbow. *though looking at the various costs I could see a masterwork battered xbow*, I think rapid reload in the weapon choice is best.
Though, I think it should be a "old battered masterwork xbow". Masterwork is good (as xbows aren't worth as much as guns), but I like the battered mechanic since it allows alot of flavor text. And, this would prevent someone from just pawning it if they simply wanted to (for whatever reason). I don't think battered masterwork is an oxymoron either, it can be made very well and out of good matertials, but be old or have taken a beating, and your just the master of it's quarks. And I just wanna bring in the old bow my daddy used to kill our vampire grandpa who was raising all our dead ancestors.
Yeah, indeed. Can't say how I forgot the battered notion from the usual free firearm. Obviously that's a must, since if you could just sell that masterwork reapeating heavy crossbow at first level, that'd be a bit too much. On the contrary to firearm, however, I'd almost say that Bolt Ace shouldn't be able to sell it even for a half price. Better yet if not at all. But yes, a battered crossbow of any kind that functions as masterwork in your hands, and broken for anyone else, or something.
A friend told me that he was puzzled why this was a gunslinger archetype if its focus is not about guns.
I must admit it was a good point. It could've just been a better archetype for fighter -- even though fighter has Crossbow Master already. (Imho, Crossbow Master is nowhere as good as Bolt Ace)
Crossbow master is utterly worthless compared to bolt ace I think.
I think it's agunslinger archetype because otherwise you would have to write up a lot of exceptions to say fighter or something, then grant lots of stuff to get grit etc. Commpared to changing a few specific spots in Gunslinger.
I always thought the battered gun given to the gunslinger was a dumb idea put forward by the designer of the gunslinger class. If they wanted to give the gunslinger a gun they should have forced the gunslinger to take the trait Heirloom weapon: musket or pistol. The Bolt Ace should get a Masterwork Crossbow of his or her choice and use the Heirloom weapon trait to pay for it. Force the player to write a short story on he he came to acquire the crossbow. Sometimes you have to have fluff with your crunch.
On the Crunch side of the class sharp shot deed I think that the Bolt ace should resolve his attacks vs. the touch AC of any target in his first range increment as long as he has 1 grit point. Right now IMO the Bolt Ace's grit pool is not large enough to use his primary class feed more than once or twice and then he can not use any of his other deeds that require grit a very poorly designed mechanic IMO.
I am in the process of designing a full class around the concept of the bolt ace I have replaced the Grit mechanic with Elan which functions as grit but uses dexterity instead of wisdom to determine the size of the pool.
Back to the battered gun I don't see why many people are so hung up on the possibility of a gunslinger sell his battered gun. Why would you sell a primary feature of your class that would be like a wizard selling his spell book or a Paladin selling his holy symbol.
I think I would prefer a new class feature of deed to speed up reloading across the board so you could convivably rapid shot at low levels.
I would love clarification on the archetype but will still play one without it. Heck, I just bought blister pack of crow's cutthroats for a crossbow mini.
As a note, quite a few gms dont use traits, or only allow story based traits. So its thoroughly bad design in a game like pathfinder, traits in the apg even lists it as optional I think.
The gunslinger gets a free battered weapon, and because its battered and old they should write a story. Not writin it is a player fm thing rather than mechanis.
Its quite true they likely cant use the touch hit hat often. But that was one of the points of this archetype. Half the complaints were about guns in theme, the other being the touch nature of guns. This takea care of both, while still allowing touch for every attack eventually. Prior to that its a more special thing.
I quite like how rare you can touch ac, saving it for calles shots via the class features.
But I enjoy having to manage and guesstimate resources.
I think its a bad example to compare spellboook or holy item. The point of makin it batteres is so it becomes like thar comparison. Otherwise down the line they get a little more money when they upgrade guns etc.
With the battered mechanic, only you benefit from it, just like the spell book and holy sybol. And is roughly the same price. Ita to maintain low lv balance.
Torbyne wrote: I think I would prefer a new class feature of deed to speed up reloading across the board so you could convivably rapid shot at low levels.
I would love clarification on the archetype but will still play one without it. Heck, I just bought blister pack of crow's cutthroats for a crossbow mini.
Tyat deed is lv 11, which I totally agree is too high level to be of any use. At that point youd have gotten rapid reload etc..
I wish it waa lv 3 or 4, and counted as rapid reload for any prereqs. So you could avoid he crossbow mastery feat tax of rapid reload too.
Reallyby lv 11, with xbow mastery (somewhaty likely to have) the only xbow that isnt a free action is douvle xbow. If the deed was lower lv, then you wouldn't end rapid reload for light or hand, and then with rapid reload you could load heavy easy.
I am curious what the design thought was behind their late level reload deed, by that point pretty much every character will have crossbow mastery anyway. I can only see it applying to corner cases with double crossbows? But even then you could only fore, swift reload and fire again. So you still only get two double shots on a full attack and you could instead go for a triple damage roll vital strike or you class given dead shot deed. Was it to let you retrain out of crossbow mastery? That would still limit you to light crossbows though, wouldn't it? Since a heavy crossbow would be a swift action with rapid and inexplicable?
I duno either, most gms ive played have never used retraining so I hope not that. I love the mechanic itself..
If only it came earlier.... if it did you could bypass xbow mastery depending on your xbow choice. This reload deed and the safe reloading deed, bypass xbow mastery. And for the one or two xbow youd want both xbow mastery and the deed for, aren't the kind youd full attack much on. At most shoot twice, for 4 bolts. Though more likely to hit compared to 4 bab shots I guess. But I think a pure bolt ace would use the lv 7 deeds for similar damage but saving bolts. But having it at lv 2 or 3, would be good I think.. low enough that it costs a lot to dip for it..
Hell more than a few builda of mine dip 1 to 5 bolt ace lvs. That costs a lot of main class stuff, so I think the reload deed isnt unbalanced at lower level.
Id put it lv 2 or 3, and have it count as rapid reload for purposes of prereqs.
Its very thematic the guy who is a master of xbows, innately knows how to reload any xbow better.
The biggest opportunity when a gunslinger might want to sell his or her initial battered gun is when he or she finds a significantly better gun. From PFS perspective that might or might not be when you get access or enough fame for a pepperbox, for example and you chose a battered pistol. I'm not going quote the texts, you can do it yourself, but pepperbox is by far much better. (and a lot cooler, to boot!)
That said, I admit crossbows are not quite as hard to acquire, but the gun isn't masterwork to begin with. It's essentially 300g extra, and if you chose that heavy repeater that would be 700gp worth of equipment for free, AT FIRST LEVEL. Now, selling that isn't grounds-breaking at higher levels, but if you could get your final weapon of choice already at first level, why would you?
The reason a gunslinger gets a battered weapon is because guns are very expensive and they otherwise couldn't afford one with the starting gold.
Its battered and useless to anyone else so NPC gunslingers aren't carrying around a significant amount of loot even at level one.
A Bolt Ace requires no such class feature as crossbows are affordable at level one.
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On the other hand, that was taking up some "room"/balance-considerations and so should probably get replaced by something. You could certainly make room for a nice masterwork mino-double in there, or something.
But what are the chances that we'll see any fixes/repairs to the proficiency and gunsmithing issue anytime soon (and HOW did that make it from testing to the final printing in the first place), or ever at all?
I think it's good to allow some cost mitigation like the gunslinger.
There are some crossb ows, double crossbow, underwater, launching, that are beyond the initial money you start out with. And depending on the game be pretty hard, if not impossible to find in some areas. So starting with a battered version allows you to play your concept much easier.
I don't much mind if it was battered masterwork, or just battered. Since it only works for the main character until repaired properly. Honestly it sounds really cool to have battered xbow +5. Only works for the main user haha. Love that thematic.. Granted, chances are it'd repair when enchanted though.
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8 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Its been mentioned in other threads but this thread is the rules one and i wanted to get a compiled list of concerns for the archetype going, someone let me know if i forgot anything?
1) Bolt Ace retains firearm proficiency
2) Bolt Ace retains the Gunsmithing feat
3) Bolt Ace retains a battered starting firearm
4) Bolt Ace is only proficient with light and heavy crossbows, no other types (possibly intended?)
5) Inexplicable Reload deed is level 11 and does not realistically (based on no one waiting 11 levels to use iterative attacks on a full BAB class, thus picking up rapid reload before this point) affect reloading anything beside the Double Crossbow, even then only allowing a Double Crossbow to be fired twice a round when BAB would already allow three attacks and Rapid Shot and/or Haste would be up to five, the deed doesn't allow scaling for the double crossbow to keep up with additional BAB attacks either. (possibly intended? seems less likely than #4 though)
Torbyne wrote: Its been mentioned in other threads but this thread is the rules one and i wanted to get a compiled list of concerns for the archetype going, someone let me know if i forgot anything?
1) Bolt Ace retains firearm proficiency
2) Bolt Ace retains the Gunsmithing feat
3) Bolt Ace retains a battered starting firearm
4) Bolt Ace is only proficient with light and heavy crossbows, no other types (possibly intended?)
5) Inexplicable Reload deed is level 11 and does not realistically (based on no one waiting 11 levels to use iterative attacks on a full BAB class, thus picking up rapid reload before this point) affect reloading anything beside the Double Crossbow, even then only allowing a Double Crossbow to be fired twice a round when BAB would already allow three attacks and Rapid Shot and/or Haste would be up to five, the deed doesn't allow scaling for the double crossbow to keep up with additional BAB attacks either. (possibly intended? seems less likely than #4 though)
That looks right. and given how man ydifferent guns a gunslinger is proficient with I' mguessing it was a mistake to allow onl ybasic types.
I FAQ'd your post since it's super clear. and favorited for linking since it comes up quite a few times and you listed quite clear
Inexplicable reload reduces reload time all the way down to not an action, which means you don't need a free hand to reload, which is good for twf light or hand crossbow users.
Imbicatus wrote: Inexplicable reload reduces reload time all the way down to not an action, which means you don't need a free hand to reload, which is good for twf light or hand crossbow users. despite the wording of "not an action" I still see most GMs ruling you need a free hand to reload the weapon. People tend to get caught up on real world physics when dealing with classes like... well, martials. So if the intent of the feat was to allow dual wielding crossbows, it probably should have been spelled out in the text.
Torbyne wrote: Imbicatus wrote: Inexplicable reload reduces reload time all the way down to not an action, which means you don't need a free hand to reload, which is good for twf light or hand crossbow users. despite the wording of "not an action" I still see most GMs ruling you need a free hand to reload the weapon. People tend to get caught up on real world physics when dealing with classes like... well, martials. So if the intent of the feat was to allow dual wielding crossbows, it probably should have been spelled out in the text. I'm not just meme spouting when I say, "Inexplicable reload is inexplicable".
Another thought on the inexplicable dual wielding, its not even possible due to free hand requirements which makes level 11 your first real chance to try TWF. Seems really late game to bring that online. And just convoluted in general. I'd love to hear from the designer behind this one about their original intent.
what I feel is missing from the Bolt Ace is a class feature that lets you use Crossbows/Bolts in place of Firearms/Ammo for Grit Feats; it solves the dual wielding problem:
Want to dual wield? Get Gun Twirling, which now works with your crossbow.
It also stops the bolt ace from feeling like a sub-optimal choice.
I feel you should keep Gun Proficentcy (but not the free beaten up firearm) and Gunsmithing just for feat prequisite, it's also nice to have for Adventure Paths like Rasputin Must Die. Just have Gunsmithing also apply to crossbows and your fine. It would also give access to Shield Marshal
They also need more crossbow proficentcys, but maybe not all; the Launching Crossbow is worth a Feat; and it can be very powerful.
Thematically I feel firearm proficiency should go. Let them count as having it for feats and let deeds affect crossbows but trade out the stuff for some crossbow lovin'. Any class that includes gun stuff is going to get a hard look at a lot of tables from those that feel they don't belong, Bolt Ace would do best as a clean break from firearms.
yeah Bolt ace should be completely removed from gun proficiency etc. Allows it to be used in a lot more places etc.
I think they should innately have all crossbows though. It takes a lot of feats to make things work really. You might be able to spare a feat for exotic crossbows if the reload deed gets moved way lower and counts as rapid reload for purposes of feats prereqs. Otherwise all the required feats for firing properly and the feats for reloading properly, you won't have much space for exotic prof feats without serious issues.
Ranged and extremely so Crossbow users, have no spare feats honestly, at least prior to like 6 or 7.
Lou Diamond wrote: If they wanted to give the gunslinger a gun they should have forced the gunslinger to take the trait Heirloom weapon Herloom weapon isn't in the APG, nor is it in a Core book at all, plus traits are an option. That would exclude a lot of people in the first place.
Remember that Herloom weapon get changed too, you need to pay for your herloom weapon now... So that would be utterly useless.
On the Bolt Ace side, I feel the gunsmithing/gun proficiency should have been replaced too.
Well and Heirloom weapon is ONLY that specific weapon. if it is lost, completely destroyed etc.. thats it, you can't just use another one. So best be sure when you enchant it I guess.
A Gunslinger is already proficient with all single and martial weapons, so that includes Crossbows, except exotic ones. But rather than have proficiency with exotic crossbows, I would prefer the archetype to have Rapid Reload(Crossbows), instead. And yes, Crossbows, as in not just one type of crossbow.
I wouldn't replace, but rather modify the Gunsmith feature. Instead of a battered firearm, you get a battered crossbow (light or heavy). And the Gunsmith feat let it be used for Crossbows and Bolts instead of Firearms and Bullets. Either that or let the Bolt Ace fix and make his starting weapon a masterwork, like a normal gunslinger would his starting firearm.
Wonder when we will get this faq?
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Darkon Slayer wrote: Wonder when we will get this faq? They're working on Errata now which should be posted when the next set of ACGs are printed.
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