Psionics coming to Pathfinder!


Product Discussion

401 to 450 of 540 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>

Devian wrote:
I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

Yup.

Erik Mona wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
So when is the Playtest going to start?

Some time in the second half of October. The preliminary classes are all done and are currently being reviewed/fiddled with by the team of talented freelancers we have working on this book. When that's done, they go to editing and layout, and then they come to you.


Hooray!!!

Paizo Employee Design Manager

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Devian wrote:
I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

The fact that this came immediately after Brandon's extensive explanation of how this book is not psionics made me do a serious facepalm. I imagine he has to be crying in a corner somewhere.

Just to be clear, things that won't (according to the Paizo and contributor commentary) be in this upcoming book:

Power points

The word "psionics"

Tattoos that give powers

Many of the sci-fi elements that have come to be associated with the word "psionics"

Anything you've already seen in 3.5 or from Dreamscarred Press

I can tell that the Paizo staff and their contributors are trying really, really hard to hammer in the point that "psychic magic" =/= "psionics", and even though the latter sprang from the former, they won't be incorporating those evolutions into the product, instead relying on the root materials that predate the whole concept of "psionics" and the connotations that brings with it.

I own and love Ultimate Psionics, and I'm actually really looking forward to getting Paizo's new "definitely not psionics" psychic magic system and giving it a whirl.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
pickin_grinnin wrote:
I still don't understand why they are using the term "Occult" when the book is about psionics.

Because, while many of the classes featured in the book use "psychic" magic, psychics are not the end-all-be-all of occultism. This book also has material that draws inspiration from eastern mysticism, conspiracy theory, ritual magic, secret societies, and other "occult" elements of fiction and history.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Devian wrote:
I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

We're currently expecting playtesting to begin in late October.

Just in time for Halloween. :)


Brandon Hodge wrote:
pickin_grinnin wrote:
I still don't understand why they are using the term "Occult" when the book is about psionics.

It's because the book isn't about "psionics." I invite you and others to read my previous post on the historical use of that term and why what we're doing isn't that.

In short, this book is drawing from a different wellspring of inspiration, particularly the Victorian occult revival as embodied by the Golden Dawn, Theosophy, Freemasonry, A∴A∴, Hermeticism, and Modern Spiritualism. As you'll find on the other side of that link,"psionics" is a loaded term with the baggage of not only a later 20th-century age more characterized by the New Age movement, Neo-paganism, and period sci-fi, but also the 3.5 era of living crystals, blurred disciplines, and other themes that just didn't strike us as the sorts of topics we wanted to tackle in this book. And another publisher already did a stand-up job adapting material using those themes, so we're opening up entirely new realms of possibilities here.

And 8th Dwarf--while we can never discount the insane scribblings and twisted ambitions of my listed peers, I know of no such plans at the moment for such a setting, though whispered vows would strike me dead if I did, and shared. =-)

So, basically, it's Psionics? =p

On a slightly more serious note if for the past several years whenever Psionics was mentioned a certain someone hadn't been saying "We'd call it Psychic magic instead and it'd be Vancian", this confusion probably wouldn't be so deeply ingrained. The words "Psychic magic" have become intertwined with Psionics because for the longest time that's all they were used in reference to. Now that it's its own thing, it's hard to shake that association.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brandon Hodge wrote:

I was wrong. It's more of an art than a skill, really.

Think of it this way, folks.

It's as if Paizo announced a book called "Victorian Pulp Adventures," and a thread pops up proclaiming "Steampunk Coming to Pathfinder!"

Despite the designer's best efforts to clarify that the book isn't, in fact, drawing from the steampunk genre: "We won't be doing clockwork men, but you might get Frankenstein. Steam-power and gears won't really be a thing, but vril might! You won't be seeing monocled villains in gear-festoooned top hats and soot-covered goggles with crazy steam cannons in airships, but you might get some From Hell-inspired secret society intrigue!" people still persist:

"So, steampunk, right?"

Woah why not?! Steampunk is awesome. Getting a group of adventurers together to save the damsel in distress from the mustached, top hat wearing villain and his steamwork golem army!


I've loved Psionics since 1st edition. DSP has Psionics covered.

I am really looking forward to Occult Adventures, I can't wait to see the tone and feel of what we will be getting. And the Kenticist - might be the "official" answer to the mechanical space that the 3.5 Warlock filled i.e. a blaster that goes all day.

Scarab Sages

Ssalarn wrote:
Devian wrote:
I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

The fact that this came immediately after Brandon's extensive explanation of how this book is not psionics made me do a serious facepalm. I imagine he has to be crying in a corner somewhere.

Just to be clear, things that won't (according to the Paizo and contributor commentary) be in this upcoming book:

Power points

The word "psionics"

Tattoos that give powers

Many of the sci-fi elements that have come to be associated with the word "psionics"

Anything you've already seen in 3.5 or from Dreamscarred Press

I can tell that the Paizo staff and their contributors are trying really, really hard to hammer in the point that "psychic magic" =/= "psionics", and even though the latter sprang from the former, they won't be incorporating those evolutions into the product, instead relying on the root materials that predate the whole concept of "psionics" and the connotations that brings with it.

I own and love Ultimate Psionics, and I'm actually really looking forward to getting Paizo's new "definitely not psionics" psychic magic system and giving it a whirl.

Like I said I prefer a points based system where you can boost your spells for extra effects especially as it allows a better chanelling magic than you expand a spell slot as though casting a spell approach. Which is part of why I'm thinking that this may not be for me as they're delieratbely dropping it still we'll see how this psychic magic works or doesn't in time.

Also your welcome for the link Tinkergoth.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

John W. Campbell, who was a long time editor of Analog magazine, coined the term "psionics" to make "parapsychology" or more precisely "psychic abilities" more palatable to his readers, most of whom were hard sf fans. At least, that's how I remember it (I discovered Analog about seven years after he coined the term, so it was already in use. Of course, over the half-century plus since then, people have assigned their own meanings to the word.

I don't like it. Either you suspend your disbelief over the question whether people can do extraordinary things with their minds, and accept "psychic abilities" or you don't. Trying to fake it with a made up word is just silly.

My take on both magic and "psionics" is that if they work in the real world, there has to be some logical basis as to how they work (not necessarily the same basis, they could be two entirely different classes of phenomena - or they might be same). My problem with most RPGs is that they don't really have such a basis for either - writers just make stuff up. The only two systems I can recall that actually made some sense to me were HârnMaster and Bonewits' Authentic Thaumaturgy, and the latter does a better job of it, IMO.

Anyway, looking forward to the book. :-)


The only thing I've ever read that clearly has a "power points"/"mana" system is Green Lantern-- with the ring telling the Lanterns what percent charge they are at.

Oh, and Final Fantasy. . .

The Force is definite infinite use-- Luke's never like, "Hold on guys, I'm outta Force Juice gotta rest up"

The Force doesn't tire its users out-- in fact there are tons of times throughout the expanded universe where characters use the Force to refresh themselves-- drawing/siphoning energy from the life around them.

The Force is definitely a set of separate skills which characters get better at individually at different rates-- Luke becomes an expert of telekinesis, like his father Vader, but neither invest anytime learning to use Force Lightning.

Meanwhile, the Emperor has invested heavily in Force lightning and emotional control aspects, but doesn't even carry a lightsaber because he never learned the combat powers that go with it (enhanced senses and speed, combat reaction and deflecting shots, etc).


3 people marked this as a favorite.

EDIT:

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

DERAIL BEHIND SPOILER

Oh, daggummit, I nearly did it.:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The Force is definite infinite use-- Luke's never like, "Hold on guys, I'm outta Force Juice gotta rest up"

The Force doesn't tire its users out-- in fact there are tons of times throughout the expanded universe where characters use the Force to refresh themselves-- drawing/siphoning energy from the life around them.

The Force is definitely a set of separate skills which characters get better at individually at different rates-- Luke becomes an expert of telekinesis, like his father Vader, but neither invest anytime learning to use Force Lightning.

Meanwhile, the Emperor has invested heavily in Force lightning and emotional control aspects, but doesn't even carry a lightsaber because he never learned the combat powers that go with it (enhanced senses and speed, combat reaction and deflecting shots, etc).

I... disagree.

There are several points at which people just stop using the Force when otherwise it seems like it would be a better idea.

Luke actually isn't shown to be that great at telekinesis, until after the films are finished: he's never shown in-film to ever be able to do what Vader does (that is, rip large metal pieces out of their bindings and fling them at a foe), and always either manipulates things that don't weigh much at short distances, or mildly alters their flight path when they're already moving, or augments a body's own moving tendencies. He becomes a Knight by RotJ, but not a Master.

By contrast, Yoda lifts a ship (albeit slowly), and seems quite tired after he sets it down, as if he were lifting something very heavy (which he was). (If you accept the Prequels, it seems his power has degraded over time, or he's just grandstanding a bit - which is always possible, given his sense of humor.)

Vader, as mentioned, shatters metal bindings and flings them at fair speed at a foe while defending in a lightsaber battle.

If you accept the prequels, then Palpatine does have lightsaber skills - he just abandons it for Force Lightning and (if you accept the Expanded Universe) mental/physical augmentation/manipulation of all of his troops and pilots.
(Later, in the Darkhorse Comics, Palpatine displays the Force power of creating a wild telekinetic storm on a planet - I think it's actually Coruscant, though I'm uncertain. It's also shown that delving into the dark side has a physically debilitating effect over time, and that the current emperor is just one in a long line of imperfect clone bodies, and wants to incarnate himself into one of the Skywalker descendants - I think Jacen, though it's been long enough that I don't recall.)

While the Force can be used to heal and repair (as shown but not explained in the films via Vader's meditation chamber), it's always shown ritualistically - not something that can be done quickly or easily, only over time and with effort... and, it has ultimately a limited effect in that regard.

Further, in the prequels, even when often used in combat for all sorts of purposes, the direct-action use is limited, despite the fact that it would be hecka-useful all the time.

About the only thing able to be divined from the various materials is that they have a near-constant low-grade precognitive effect that helps their reflexes appear preternatural.

Anything else clearly requires focus, concentration, and is limited in its use. (Otherwise the best option would to always have two Jedi per ship: one pilot and one "mess with everyone else's mind" - they'd be practically invulnerable that way.)

All of that is exceedingly difficult to model in-game, one way or the other.

Still interesting to try.

And limitless "I throw the force at it!" (which is what players tend to do) really don't reflect that kind of thing.

Sorry, all, edited to try and head off my own derail...


The d6 West End Games version modelled it perfectly-- individual skills that you can use infinitely with varying degree--

Early in the movies Luke can't lift heavy objects because he doesn't have enough dice in it yet.

The Dark Side having degenerative effects is not the same as the act of using the force physically tiring you out.

And in the expanded universe there is a LOT more healing from the force-- Jedi Academy trilogy has a character who specializes in it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yes, and she still wasn't as good at healing as people were at killing.

It's because healing is long and slow, painful.

She was also exhausted after doing it.


I don't remember it as such, but I know one thing for a fact-- it wasn't Force Juice.


Ew... Force Juice is what turns you into an Aboleth Abeloth, or something, isn't it?

;D


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revitalize

^ I knew that was in there somewhere-- using the force to counteract exhaustion.


Off-topic is off-topic:
Neat!

Cilghal should'a used that after her long surgical procedures, then. :)

(Also, it appears in exactly one book: do you know how long it took, or if, like the rest of the healing techniques, it was ritualistic and required time and focus, or, more like a video game element (which might explain why it wasn't used again).


Yes, TL, you make some good points. Still, almost every mana system in fantasy lit shows it to be also physically draining. You get tired as you use it.

( " a balrog, and I am already tired")

Dresden gets tired as he runs low.

Sczarni

It isn't "spirit magic" at all, but Mass Effect' biotics are similar in using the brain/mind to manipulate energy, and it is physically and mentally draining. Biotics are given twice the food rations, and a 'newbie' overusing them describes it as 'pulling a muscle' in her brain.


Nearly all videogame magic is point based. I woud say all but there may be some corner cases I don't remember.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
VM mercenario wrote:
Nearly all videogame magic is point based. I woud say all but there may be some corner cases I don't remember.

Magic in video games is almost always point based, or infinite. The only ones that I can think of that aren't are specifically made in D&D's image, like Neverwinter Nights. But even then, that game is balanced around the possibility of resting after every fight, because the spells are weaker and the enemies tougher than in actual D&D.


Off topic corner continues!:
DrDeth wrote:

Yes, TL, you make some good points. Still, almost every mana system in fantasy lit shows it to be also physically draining. You get tired as you use it.

( " a balrog, and I am already tired")

Dresden gets tired as he runs low.

At least as far as Cilghal is concerned, it seems pretty clear that she was exhausted because it took so long and so much concentration.

It's like a student studying for a long time, or reading a book for a long time, or doing anything for a long time: the activity itself might not be exhausting, but the repetitious nature of that activity is.

It seems to me that it's more based off of long hours than anything else.

This would seem to indicate an 'all day' type casting... but the problem is that skills are so very swingy that these don't really model the use of at-will effects either.

It's a tough nut to crack.

The West End games did fairly well, but the way the system functioned was substantially different - it didn't really allow you (in my memory) to examine what the force effects would be like if used outside of specific scenes and at will, and it also was relatively heavily limited in which force skills you could acquire, as I recall.

VM mercenario wrote:
Nearly all videogame magic is point based. I woud say all but there may be some corner cases I don't remember.

In addition to what Tels said, the very first Final Fantasy was slots-based, because it was modeled after D&D.

... it also wasn't a very good system, despite being interesting.


Off topic corner:

Spoiler:
WEG had a LOT of force powers you could get especially as the supplements progressed--

Basically everything that anyone was seen as doing in the movies (first three) and the first few books series could be obtained as a power.

They were divided into three categories-- Control, Sense, and Alter and then some powers were in more than one category. You had to spend experience to raise each force category separately, and if I recall correctly ones from multiple categories used your lowest of the three.

You could try things infinite times-- if I tried to telekinesis something into my hands I rolled my #d6s equal to my Control power score against a difficulty set by the game-master and then it worked or it didn't.

Either way, you could do it again next round, there was no tiring effect and no points-- just the possibility of failure depending on your scores.

This made it very experience intensive to raise all three force aspects which raised at the attributes cost instead of skills cost. You learned I think 3-4 powers per point of a force aspect you got. But powers like Jedi Mind Trick which was in all three categories you were always rolling your lowest dice total for and difficulties off the table got very high.


Been a looooooooooong time since I played that game, so: okay. Also, I don't think I ever had more than one supplement. :)


Off Topic...

Spoiler:
I hate to spoil this pages long debate about fictional systems and how they obviously use points or slots.

But to be accurate most fantasy powers are plot fueled. They work as often as the author wants them to be used and stop working precisely when the author does not wish them to be used. The closest approximation to this sort of system would be if the GM said how often you can use your powers rather than a contrived point or slot system. But many players would run screaming from such a system. Probably because your powers would have a tendency to become unreliable during the final boss fight.

On topic:
I am looking forward to seeing the play test! This product sounds awesome.


Rynjin wrote:


I'll name a couple more since I haven't read Alex Verus or The Hollows.

I'll toss in Obsidian again. It represents all 3 kinds of magic, Prepared casting (High magic), Divine casting (Wild magic), and Power Points (Elven magic).

I have to disagree with High Magic. High magic is most certainly a Power Point system rather then Vancian. It's very foundation is memorizing a spell, true, but you never 'forget' the spell once you have memorized it. You also have a limited amount of energy to burn on spells. High Magic tends to steal power points from the rest of the public for High mages to use. When they don't have access to it, even simpler spells can close to burn them out without some support.


Sorta, kinda, maybe? Thinking on it it doesn't really fit at all. It's just kind of a ritual magic.


Rynjin wrote:
Sorta, kinda, maybe? Thinking on it it doesn't really fit at all. It's just kind of a ritual magic.

A lot of it is Ritual Magic, but it all costs power.

High Magic can 'flame' without ritual, just needs an implement, but still uses the person's power to cast it.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

21 people marked this as a favorite.

You guys are going to love the rules for midichlorians we're putting into this book!

SO EXCITED!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
Sorta, kinda, maybe? Thinking on it it doesn't really fit at all. It's just kind of a ritual magic.

Probably the best d20 book that could deal with High Magic in the Obsidian trilogy is 'Elements of Magic'. Elements of magic uses Noun-Verb combinations to make magic happen, the cost being power points/mana. High Magic is taught words and how to use them together to use magic.

The one place it doesn't quite work is how to take mana from other people to use in your own pool, which is what High Mages do from the citizens of the Golden City.

Each citizen is required to wear a talisman. Every week or month, they must replace the talisman with a new one, the old one being taken by the temple and somehow stripped of the mana it collected and transferred to the High Mages.

Both of these acts were explained in the first book. Kellen being at school, nearly falling asleep writing sigils in the air. His own father explaining how the common folk don't need their innate magic, because they don't do anything with it anyways, so it isn't stealing their power, since they don't know it is missing.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

You guys are going to love the rules for midichlorians we're putting into this book!

SO EXCITED!

Finally it's the hard science explanation for magic we've all been waiting for.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Erik Mona wrote:

You guys are going to love the rules for midichlorians we're putting into this book!

SO EXCITED!

Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, must not troll the troller, Must not troll the troller...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, anyone readt to bet how fast we can crash paizo's servers next tuesday? I know on the ACG playtest I just barely managed to download the playtest document.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
williamoak wrote:
So, anyone readt to bet how fast we can crash paizo's servers next tuesday? I know on the ACG playtest I just barely managed to download the playtest document.

Not a challenge. Sorry.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Considering Paizo's servers seem to consist of several toasters lashed together with duct tape, that's not much of a bet.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

How can we get on the pkaytest for these new classes???


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I remember when the ACG Playtest was released. Paizo must have lost a couple of the hamsters powering their servers.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
jalroy wrote:
How can we get on the pkaytest for these new classes???

Step 1: wait.

Step 2: download it when it's released.
Step 3: playtest it.

Easy!

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Anguish wrote:
jalroy wrote:
How can we get on the pkaytest for these new classes???

Step 1: wait.

Step 2: download it when it's released.
Step 3: playtest it.

Easy!

Step 1: Download...

Step 2: ?????
Step 3: Make lot's of money!!!!

Disclaimer: No actual profit can be made by downloading the playtest. Offer void in states where it is not legal or begin with vowels...


As someone who didn't actually like the "psionics" feel in 3.5....I'm looking foreword to seeing what this turns out like flavor wise, as well as mechanically ;)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nighttree wrote:
As someone who didn't actually like the "psionics" feel in 3.5....I'm looking foreword to seeing what this turns out like flavor wise, as well as mechanically ;)

As someone who loved 3.5-style psionics and also loves the idea of cool Victorian and/or (Stephen) Kingsian mind magic, I too, am looking forward to seeing what this turns out like flavor wise, as well as mechanically ;)


I didn't realize people liked forewords that much. They're usually pretty dull.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ed Reppert wrote:

J

My take on both magic and "psionics" is that if they work in the real world, there has to be some logical basis as to how they work (not necessarily the same basis, they could be two entirely different classes of phenomena - or they might be same). My problem with most RPGs is that they don't really have such a basis for either - writers just make stuff up. The only two systems I can recall that actually made some sense to me were HârnMaster and Bonewits' Authentic Thaumaturgy, and the latter does a better job of it, IMO.

The thing is.... they don't. Neither of them... that is "work in the real world". So I don't quite understand your point. After what Johnny Carson did to Uri Geller, that closed the book on "real world" psi.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:

The only thing I've ever read that clearly has a "power points"/"mana" system is Green Lantern-- with the ring telling the Lanterns what percent charge they are at.

Oh, and Final Fantasy. . .

The Force is definite infinite use-- Luke's never like, "Hold on guys, I'm outta Force Juice gotta rest up"

Nor is he constantly actively useing it like a fire hose with no tap. Keep in mind that things change between media, and when translating a movie to a game, some changes need to be made so that all players are relevant, not just Force Users.

Silver Crusade

9 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the comparison would work like this.

Psychic Magic is to Psionics as Mythic is to Epic.

Do they accomplish similar goals? Yes.

Are they the same thing? Nope, not at all.

Dark Archive

Kryssa Lightbinder wrote:

I think the comparison would work like this.

Psychic Magic is to Psionics as Mythic is to Epic.

Do they accomplish similar goals? Yes.

Are they the same thing? Nope, not at all.

Good Comparison!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes excellent comparison!


Honestly when I hear the title "Occult Mysteries" I think of stuff like Ouija Boards, Mentalists, Fortune Teller shops, and those "psychics" that will speak to the spirits of your loved ones. That seems to be the general feel for the book that I'm getting.

Also Cantus powers in the novel/anime "From the New World" seem appropriate for this.


Any word as to if Wayne Reynolds will be illustrating Iconic's for these new classes ?

401 to 450 of 540 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / Psionics coming to Pathfinder! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.