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Does a multiclassed Monk / Sacred Fist Warpriest get their Wisdom bonus to AC twice? They both use the same text and everything, but both are untyped bonuses. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work, though logically I don't think it makes much sense. Should that text have been added after they included the ability to multiclass with the parent class? I have a monk/warpriest in PFS, and will apply the Sacred Fist archetype to him, I think, just want to clarify.
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Well, one is from a supernatural source (SU) and grants deflection bonuses in addition to the wisdom bonus and the other is from an Extraordinary source (EX) and grants dodge bonuses in addition to the wisdom bonus, so its a bit hard to argue that they won't stack since they come from the same source.
So for me they stack, but I'll faq it as well.
prototype00
Never really thought about them stacking two times, but that would be just wrong. FAQued.
I reckon the level by level bonuses do stack, however, since they are different bonus types. Not sure though whether the levels will stack for progression. Probably not.
Also a little off-topic, but, does monk and sacred fist levels stack to determine unarmed damage and at which levels flurry of blows improve?
We already have this question for a FAQ over here with almost 150 hits. Please FAQ it so we can get an answer. The fact is there is a lot more than just this riding on it.
I am not sure its the same. I mean technicly is the same, but paizo could issue errata that will results in a different outcome for each of those issues.
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We already have this question for a FAQ over here with almost 150 hits. Please FAQ it so we can get an answer. The fact is there is a lot more than just this riding on it.
That question is about people being confused over "sources". The generalized answer, if it ever comes, is that you will be able to add the same stat twice to the same thing, as long as you observe the distinction between replacements and additional bonuses.
Regardless of the answer to the general question, the Sacred Fist AC bonus is just a shoddy slip-up. RAW, yes, they clearly stack. RAI, of course they don't.
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Never really thought about them stacking two times, but that would be just wrong. FAQued.
I reckon the level by level bonuses do stack, however, since they are different bonus types. Not sure though whether the levels will stack for progression. Probably not.
Also a little off-topic, but, does monk and sacred fist levels stack to determine unarmed damage and at which levels flurry of blows improve?
There's nothing wrong with this at all. They didn't specifically state it "functions like a Monk's AC Bonus", like they did throughout the REST of the Archetype for Sacred Fist. If they wanted it, they should have copy/pasted that statement one more time, like they used it for FoB and Ki Pool. It seems intentional to me.
Also, just because they gain it twice, doesn't mean it's OP or "wrong". Think about the Long-run of it.
Ring of Protection no longer applies, because it's a Deflection bonus for the growth of their AC Bonus. They'll only take a couple levels of Monk, because... Monk, so they don't get the continuous Untyped bonus of their AC Bonus growth.
18 Wisdom. Being a Monk for two levels gives you 4 Untyped AC. xx Levels of Sacred Fist gives you 4 Untyped AC and +2 to +4 Deflection depending on how many levels they get. The Ring of Protection is still the better, and a fairly cheap choice, in the end. Making the +2 to +4 from AC Bonus null and void. It comes out as if he were a Monk with a Ring of Deflection. He just gets that AC up front, then it stays fairly stagnant aside from any equipment. I don't see anything wrong with that, since generally Monks or anything Monk-Like fall behind in terms of AC anyways.
I truly think they should stack. (FAQd)
There's nothing wrong with this at all.Never really thought about them stacking two times, but that would be just wrong. FAQued.
I reckon the level by level bonuses do stack, however, since they are different bonus types. Not sure though whether the levels will stack for progression. Probably not.
Also a little off-topic, but, does monk and sacred fist levels stack to determine unarmed damage and at which levels flurry of blows improve?
I believe you misunderstood. The whole idea of getting wisdom twice is just "wrong". Basically, when your wisdom modifier improves by relevant amount, you'll be getting that improvement twice all the way. That's going to result in huge difference in AC. For example, at lvl 12, you can easily get wisdom to 24 to 26, that's +7 or +8, twice +14 or +16 only from Wisdom. I really don't believe that's what they intended.
Applied to somewhat reasonable dexterity, let's say 16, that's already AC 27-29. (and like you said, it's deflection so if you'd want the AC bonus only, you'd go for monk more, sacred fist less, and get untyped bonus from monk, and deflection from ring) so, only sacred fist 4/monk 8 would result in having +1 (redundant) deflection from SF, and +2 untyped from monk. Increasing the AC to 29-31, and that doesn't include anything else, like mage armor or bracers of armor +4 or better. or barkskin. or jingasa, or ioun stone. or even dodge bonuses! That's going to be insanely high armor class that nothing can penetrate, except with a natural 20.|
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At Lvl 12, AC is mostly irrelevant.
Enemies will have +20 or more to hit, and that neat AC boost, won't mean a whole hell of a lot.
Just saying.
This is not true, ESPECIALLY for a character who also has a high touch AC.
My level 11 character can get his AC past 40. That is quite significant against +25 or even +30 (being hit 1/2 the time is a lot better than being hit 95% of the time). And it is quite possible to do better than that.
For many builds it is practical to keep your AC relevant at all levels, although it does take significant resource investment.
Only if your game is going to extremes in terms of high level rocket tag (and a great many do NOT) does a high AC become significantly less useful and, even then, it never gets to the point of "mostly irrelevant"
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There's nothing wrong with this at all.Never really thought about them stacking two times, but that would be just wrong. FAQued.
I reckon the level by level bonuses do stack, however, since they are different bonus types. Not sure though whether the levels will stack for progression. Probably not.
Also a little off-topic, but, does monk and sacred fist levels stack to determine unarmed damage and at which levels flurry of blows improve?
I believe you misunderstood. The whole idea of getting wisdom twice is just "wrong". Basically, when your wisdom modifier improves by relevant amount, you'll be getting that improvement twice all the way. That's going to result in huge difference in AC. For example, at lvl 12, you can easily get wisdom to 24 to 26, that's +7 or +8, twice +14 or +16 only from Wisdom. I really don't believe that's what they intended.
Applied to somewhat reasonable dexterity, let's say 16, that's already AC 27-29. (and like you said, it's deflection so if you'd want the AC bonus only, you'd go for monk more, sacred fist less, and get untyped bonus from monk, and deflection from ring) so, only sacred fist 4/monk 8 would result in having +1 (redundant) deflection from SF, and +2 untyped from monk. Increasing the AC to 29-31, and that doesn't include anything else, like mage armor or bracers of armor +4 or better. or barkskin. or jingasa, or ioun stone. or even dodge bonuses! That's going to be insanely high armor class that nothing can penetrate, except with a natural 20.
I completely understand what you are saying, and the basis of it, but it still just doesn't seems sensible on the subject.
At level 12, the majority of classes can have the same AC as a Monk, or higher Without any help or need of those spells. Most other classes have the freedom of starting with Natural/Armor and/or Shields. That AC is actually pretty low to standard compared to other class combinations of the same level. Also, nearly everyone has access to the same AC boosts through conventional wonderous means.
If they wanted this Not to stack, they would have said so with a "functions like a Monk's of the same name" or "this does not stack with the AC bonus granted by the Monk class". They were obviously thinking about the Monk when they created the Sacred Fist, so why not make note of it not stacking, if it wasn't supposed to stack? Unless they're contracting some contracters of contracters out to write their stuff for them, the idea would have sprung to mind.
Just as well, it doesn't make sense for them not to stack. There's nothing in the books at all against it. They have the same name, but nothing specifically says they cannot combine. Also, they're both Untyped ac bonuses. The Monk's increasing AC bonus is untyped, whereas the SF's increasing AC bonus is Deflection. One is EX while one is SU. They both happen to be based off of Wisdom. So if those cannot stack, I guess bonuses to STR or DEX from being a Druid/Alchemist don't stack either, since one is a Size bonus and the other an Alchemical bonus. However, they add to the same thing, so it suddenly isn't fair and it's totally gamebreaking! :T
I'm not arguing necessarily to say "you're wrong" or anything, just to share my perspective with a little more detail. Arguing obviously won't get anywhere, since a FAQ for this has been started in various ways/threads.
I wonder -- Has anyone tried creating a monk/sacred fist for PFS? If, so, did that double Wis bonus to AC fly? The Sacred Fist is not on their list of banned archetypes, so in theory somebody should have tried this by now.
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I wonder -- Has anyone tried creating a monk/sacred fist for PFS? If, so, did that double Wis bonus to AC fly? The Sacred Fist is not on their list of banned archetypes, so in theory somebody should have tried this by now.
I did, and they said it wouldn't be allowed for there to be double the WIS bonus to AC.
Their "Rules Guy" responded with:
"Because they're from the same named game element, you won't get your Wisdom bonus to AC twice from multiple installments of the AC Bonus class feature. The deflection bonus from the Sacred Fist AC Bonus, however, will stack with the untyped bonus from the Monk AC Bonus because those are demonstrably different bonuses."
Interestingly. The monk's wisdom to AC and AC bonus from level seems to be the same kind of AC, which is untyped. With the sacred fist, only the wisdom AC is untyped, the AC from his levels is a deflection bonus.
So the wisdom AC wouldn't stack as far as I can tell, its from the same untyped source and even has the same name. The AC from the monk and sacred fist levels would work together, as the one builds on the wisdom AC and the other builds on deflection.
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Interestingly. The monk's wisdom to AC and AC bonus from level seems to be the same kind of AC, which is untyped. With the sacred fist, only the wisdom AC is untyped, the AC from his levels is a deflection bonus.
So the wisdom AC wouldn't stack as far as I can tell, its from the same untyped source and even has the same name. The AC from the monk and sacred fist levels would work together, as the one builds on the wisdom AC and the other builds on deflection.
Ah, but one is (Ex), and the other is (Su).
At Lvl 12, AC is mostly irrelevant.
Enemies will have +20 or more to hit, and that neat AC boost, won't mean a whole hell of a lot.
Just saying.
Well... Not completely true. At 12th level AC won't let you survive a round unscathed anymore, but it can still protect you from iterative attacks.
High touch AC is also pretty good, since arcane casters usually have low attack bonuses.
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At Lvl 12, AC is mostly irrelevant.
Enemies will have +20 or more to hit, and that neat AC boost, won't mean a whole hell of a lot.
Just saying.
Well... Not completely true. At 12th level AC won't let you survive a round unscathed anymore, but it can still protect you from iterative attacks.
High touch AC is also pretty good, since arcane casters usually have low attack bonuses.
At that level, the full caster will overshadow you, and whilst you sit around, being slightly harder to hit, the Wizard has already ended the encounter.
At that level, the full caster will overshadow you, and whilst you sit around, being slightly harder to hit, the Wizard has already ended the encounter.
Which... Has nothing to do with AC being irrelevant. You could say full attacks are irrelevant for the very same reason. Whilst you sit around hitting stuff slightly harder, the Wizard has already ended the encounter.
Don't get me wrong, IMHO, the two bonuses to AC do stack (although i'm sure many people will consciously misinterpret the rule because they think it's too good). But AC is not really irrelevant... Especially not Touch AC, considering many nasty spells require ranged touch attacks (Enervation comes to mind).
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At that level, the full caster will overshadow you, and whilst you sit around, being slightly harder to hit, the Wizard has already ended the encounter.Which... Has nothing to do with AC being irrelevant. You could say full attacks are irrelevant for the very same reason. Whilst you sit around hitting stuff slightly harder, the Wizard has already ended the encounter.
Don't get me wrong, IMHO, the two bonuses to AC do stack (although i'm sure many people will consciously misinterpret the rule because they think it's too good). But AC is not really irrelevant... Especially not Touch AC, considering many nasty spells require ranged touch attacks (Enervation comes to mind).
I was speaking in response to power/balance comments.
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So I parsed through some stuff, and I'm going to leave this here:
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
AC Bonus (Su): A deity protects her sacred fist as long as he is unarmored and unencumbered. A sacred fist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a sacred fist gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sacred fist is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
The important part is bolded.
Divine grace grants an untyped bonus to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier—in this case, the ability specifically calls this bonus a bonus, and by leaving it untyped, the bonus from divine grace stacks with everything. It does not replace existing modifiers to saving throws gained from stats.
A paladin/oracle with that combination would indeed replace his Dex modifier with his Cha modifier for Reflex saves, and then when he gains divine grace, adds a bonus equal to his Cha modifier to all his saves.
It's not technically adding the ability score modifier twice, in any case.
Link for source. This is pretty much hard proof that the two abilities stack, even using JJ's standards.
Now, when it comes to certain Golarion specific things, he is the man.
Does it exist in Golarion? Ask JJ.
Yeah... People should stop claiming JJ's opinions are official rules. And instead start asking him to write a Pathfinder Tales novel ASAP!
Do we know yet if this is stacking or not. I agree the bonus that comes along with the Wis to AC stacks as one is untyped and one is deflection but do the Wis-AC stack?
I did, just in case. I am curious because I am considering a Kasatha Monk (MoMS) 2/Sacred Fist 3 for my next campaign run and I want to know.
Now granted I rolled really lucky and got 2 18s and with a boost to Dex and Wis I have a sitting total of 24 without any magic gear. (5 from Wis once, and the two scaling bonuses) So I am not hurting for AC but if my AC would be higher, I will take it.
I did, just in case. I am curious because I am considering a Kasatha Monk (MoMS) 2/Sacred Fist 3 for my next campaign run and I want to know.
Now granted I rolled really lucky and got 2 18s and with a boost to Dex and Wis I have a sitting total of 24 without any magic gear. (5 from Wis once, and the two scaling bonuses) So I am not hurting for AC but if my AC would be higher, I will take it.
In that case, you may wanna run that by your GM. If nothing is able to hit you, than things should be scaled up accordingly. Which spells disaster for your party members. The strongest PC defines the parameters of the encounters for the whole party, which can be a dangerous arms race.
True enough, was considering making this for a gestalt campaign instead tagging Swashbuckler onto the other side and just use his Unarmed Strikes as P with Weapon Versatility for the deeds. Gestalt should let the party keep up right?
True enough, was considering making this for a gestalt campaign instead tagging Swashbuckler onto the other side and just use his Unarmed Strikes as P with Weapon Versatility for the deeds. Gestalt should let the party keep up right?
Again, you'll see table variation here. Some people will use Gestalt as an excuse to do broken things, like "My Oradin has sky-high saves" or "My Barbarian / Dragon Disciple can smash planets", while others will use gestalt as a way to play a very poor choice otherwise "I'm a Rogue-- and I don't suck!"
Yes hence the idea of a Monk 2/Scared Fist//Swashbuckler 5
Well with my Gestalt Idea here is what I figured
22 Dex and Wis (Belt of Dex and Headband of Wis on top of natural 20s)
1 from Deflection 1 from unnamed bonus 2 from Kasatha dodge bonus 1 from Swashbuckler's nimble for a total of 27 AC at level 5 and you can easily afford bracers of armor even with the headband and belt for a 28 and that is WITHOUT the extra Wis boost