All the Rogue has left is Sneak Attack which if your not doing ranged results in a dead character. As the rogue has neither the hp or AC to survive. Or Rogue Talents that are a mixed bag of good, bad or situational. I read up on the Ninja today and it so much more interesting, useful and quite frankly awesome than the Rogue.
This is an utter failure in the Design of the Rogue. Theres simply not a reason to take a Rogue now unless you just want to make a mechanically inferior character. Those 3 feats aren't going to trump 6 levels of casting.
Even Sneak Attack can be taken by an Alchemist through Vivisectionist.
Rogues, when played well, can be very versatile... he is both a good attacker AND a solid face (not to mention a trap finder/remover).So can you give me some tips?A really big tip...work with your party mates. Your key strategy is to deny your opponents dex any way you can. Stealth, Feint, Flanking. Those are your three basic damage tools.
Use your strength with your social skills. Take some queues from master thieves in media and literature.
And never... ever.... fight the fair fight.
I would agree that feint rogue is the most viable rogue.
That doesn't make them good...
Traits: Reincarnated(+2 vs fear and death effects), Deathtouch(+2 vs mind affecting)
1 |Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Deceitful
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |Arcane Strike
8 |Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |Greater Feint
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
11|Iron Will
12|Opportunist
13|Combat Reflexes
14|Crippling Strike
15|Great Fortitude
16|Dispelling Attack
17|Quick Draw
18|Slippery Mind
19|Improved Great Fortitude
20|Defensive Roll
Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, Quickdraw, Deceitful
Mythic Path: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Incredible Parry, Lesson Learned, Ever Ready, Limitless Range, Farwalker
If we're being honest... you can have literally *all* the feats with no spells and I'd take 9 levels of spells any day.
I might take the feats. All of them is pretty nuts.
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A really big tip...work with your party mates. Your key strategy is to deny your opponents dex any way you can. Stealth, Feint, Flanking. Those are your three basic damage tools. Your big secondary tool is your mobility, your high dex and your acrobatic skill.
As long as the person playing a Rogue focus on ranged attacks this works Even in melee too Except the Rogue goes down quickly and fast at higher levels if they try and sneak attack in melee.
Use your strength with your social skills. Take some queues from master thieves in media and literature.
Can't argue with you on the social skills. Only the Bard imo is better.
And never... ever.... fight the fair fight.
Easier said then done when going up against a good DM. I'm running a AP and if I don't modify the npc or BBEGS they go down too easily. Fair or not fair fight.
Can't argue with you on the social skills. Only the Bard imo is better.Use your strength with your social skills. Take some queues from master thieves in media and literature.
And Inquisitors with the Conversion Inquisition. And anyone who invests in the right skills, which they can afford to do, since they don't have to compensate for as many major weaknesses as a Rogue (AC, saves and accuracy).
Compensating for 1 major weakness is doable. Even easy. Compensating for 3 of them... That's difficult.
Even then unless you have good AC and decent hp I still don't recommend using sneak attack in melee. It's just too easy imo to get knocked or killed off.
Even Sneak Attack can be taken by an Alchemist through Vivisectionist.
The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.
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The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.
I did not want to comment on a class I did not have a lot of experince with so erred on the side of caution. A AC of 31 even if one needs extract, items and magic to do is pretty damn good. I just makes me no longer want to play a Rogue at all.
I did not want to comment on a class I did not have a lot of experince with so erred on the side of caution. A AC of 31 even if one needs extract, items and magic to do is pretty damn good. I just makes me no longer want to play a Rogue at all.
The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.
I can link you my build if you like. I'm quite proud of it.
The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.
Cool! It's even better than my 2-handed shield bashing Ranger. He gets up to 29 without really focusing on AC, since simply upgrading his "weapon" (a 2-handed shield) automatically raises his AC as well.
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And Inquisitors with the Conversion Inquisition. And anyone who invests in the right skills, which they can afford to do, since they don't have to compensate for as many major weaknesses as a Rogue (AC, saves and accuracy).Can't argue with you on the social skills. Only the Bard imo is better.Use your strength with your social skills. Take some queues from master thieves in media and literature.
Student of Philosophy is your friend.
If your build works for you, than the answer is ...a good party to work with.
Remember kids, its the other party members job to make sure you function!
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The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.Cool! It's even better than my 2-handed shield bashing Ranger. He gets up to 29 without really focusing on AC, since simply upgrading his "weapon" (a 2-handed shield) automatically raises his AC as well.
Yeah I always have this weird moment in character building where I get super paranoid about AC and go crazy on it. I just like how he wields a mace and dagger. He has nice saves too. I also have weird stuff I haven't listed like being able to take 10s on Stealth and Disable Device whenever and Bardic Knowledge. I dedicate part of this build to BBT for showing me Pathfinder Delver.
Human Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 9/Pathfinder Delver 1 20 Pointbuy
Traits: Deathtouched, Reincarnated
Str:10
Dex:18(20)(Ability score increases +2)
Con:14
Int:16(18)(+2 Human)
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
3: Weapon Finesse
5: Two Weapon Fighting
7: Two Weapon Feint
8: Skill Focus(Perception)
9: Improved Feint
Discoveries: Whatever you want, take infusion and Mutagen at some point though.
Gear:
+1 Agile Light Mace
+1 Agile Dagger
Cloak of Resistance +3
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
+3 Mithril Chainshirt
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Ring of Protection +1
Wayfinder equipped with Clear Spindle
Approximately 4.6k gold remaining
Special Abilities:
Sneak Attack 5d6
Bardic Knowledge +1
Cognatogen
Alchemy
Brew Potion
Skills(112 points):
Acrobatics: +10(5 ranks)
Bluff: +21 (10 ranks)
Perception: +29 (10 ranks)
Kn.(History): +15 (4 ranks)
Kn.The rest: +9(Untrained)
Disable Device: +25 (10 ranks)
Stealth: +18 (10 ranks)
UMD +13(10 ranks)
(53 points left for free)
DEFENSES
HP: 78
AC: 24(31 with Mutagen boosting Dex and Barkskin)
Fort:+11(+6 vs Poison) Ref:+14 Will:+6(Immune to possesions and mental control)
+2 Vs Mind Affecting effects and +2 Vs Fear Effects and Death Effects
OFFENSES:
This guy gets completely outrageous with buffs.
Melee Attack Bonus: +10/+10/+5 (+6 BAB +1 Wpn +5 Dex)
Ranged Attack Bonus: +12/+6
Full Buffed Attack Bonus: +15/+15/+10 Breakdown: 6(BAB)+7(Dex)+1(Wpn)+2(Morale)+1(Haste)-2(TWF)
Buffs: Heroism, Mutagen, Haste, (He can supply himself with all of these)
Damage: 1d6+10+5d6, 1d6+10+5d6 and 1d4+10+5d6 or 1d4+10+5d6, 1d4+10+5d6 and 1d6+10+5d6 However one of these is likely to be dropped to feint.
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How's that Lemmy?
I'm glad you asked. (Because I love this build).
EDIT: That's a really cool build, Scavion. That Mutagen of Dex gives you the AC advantage over my Ranger...
Damn you, Mutagen!!!
*shakes fist*
How's that Lemmy?I'm glad you asked. (Because I love this build).
EDIT: That's a really cool build, Scavion. That Mutagen of Dex gives you the AC advantage over my Ranger...
Damn you, Mutagen!!!
*shakes fist*
Dip for it! Updated saves, I hate constantly having to edit because I forgot to change things.
Infinite hit-points is pretty nice:P of course it wouldn't protect you against incapacitation from magic
If your PC's head is held in a bucket of water for a long enough time he'll be reduced to 0 hitpoints.
Dip for it! Updated saves, I hate constantly having to edit because I forgot to change things.
Pffff. Dipping is for the weak willed. lol. ^^
Besides, Buzz will keep upgrading his shield and eventually buy a Dex-boosting belt.
And just so I can brag, Buzz's Will save bonus is twice as good as Gadrick's!
*blows a raspberry*
If we're being honest... you can have literally *all* the feats with no spells and I'd take 9 levels of spells any day.So in other words, you're in that camp of "the only class worth playing is a full spellcaster".
My camp is very clearly, the "Even if you stacked them all up, feats are nothing compared to the power of spells camp" which isn't so much a camp as the reality of the Pathfinder system (and you are correct 137Ben I meant only PF feats, since 3.5 ones can get you 9th level spells). In terms of power, nothing beats 9 levels of spells, but at least there are other features that aren't as awful as PF feats and compare more favorably to 9 levels of spellcasting. Those features are just not feats... or trapfinding.
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If your build works for you, than the answer is ...a good party to work with.
Ah of course! How could I forget to add disproportionate amounts of buffs and loot?
Well this strategy also fixes my commoner build quite well too.
Playing the devil advocate, Scavion build have the big disadvantage of wills saves. If he increase the AC via mutagen his will saves suffer even more.
Thanks, Nicos. But I already bragged about that! ;)
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How's that Lemmy?I'm glad you asked. (Because I love this build).
I can see why! I knew it had to be a feat somewhere, the feat tables just didn't mention that fact in the brief description.
My camp is very clearly, the "Even if you stacked them all up, feats are nothing compared to the power of spells camp" which isn't so much a camp as the reality of the Pathfinder system (and you are correct 137Ben I meant only PF feats, since 3.5 ones can get you 9th level spells). In terms of power, nothing beats 9 levels of spells, but at least there are other features that aren't as awful as PF feats and compare more favorably to 9 levels of spellcasting. Those features are just not feats... or trapfinding.If we're being honest... you can have literally *all* the feats with no spells and I'd take 9 levels of spells any day.So in other words, you're in that camp of "the only class worth playing is a full spellcaster".
Idk a fighter/rogue gestalt with every feat and talent in the game from lvl 1 onwards would be pretty sick from 1-20.
I really like the part where she could craft golem armies.
I can see why! I knew it had to be a feat somewhere, the feat tables just didn't mention that fact in the brief description.How's that Lemmy?I'm glad you asked. (Because I love this build).
Ah, yes. Shield Master is really cool. I'd love to see this guy on 10th level, when he gets an extra attack every time he confirms a critical... With his main weapon! It's like explosive critical :D!
Golem Armies is kinda bleh next to what you can do with spells though. I mean that would be like showing up to a fight with a stick, when your opponent is a reality warping god that commands an infinite soulless army . I mean sure a stick is better then nothing... but its a stick. I'll take reality warping godhood and an infinite soulless army over a stick any day in terms of power.
Playing the devil advocate, Scavion build have the big disadvantage of wills saves. If he increase the AC via mutagen his will saves suffer even more.
It's a good thing I have a +10 Will Save against Mind Affecting effects. Including the -2 penalty to Wisdom I get for drinking my Dex Potion. And immunity to mental control and possession.
The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.Even then unless you have good AC and decent hp I still don't recommend using sneak attack in melee. It's just too easy imo to get knocked or killed off.
Even Sneak Attack can be taken by an Alchemist through Vivisectionist.
I'd just like to add that around lv12-14, an alchemist can reach an AC of around 40. I built my alchemist to be a monster, and he's become rather hard to kill. I'll post my build as well.
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Every year it seems to be one more nail to the rogue´s coffin. Just when you when it seems that the coffin can not allow more nails *BAM!* there is one more.
Witht he archeologist, the slayer and the trapfinding trait I can not guess how the rogue could be more outclassed in the future.
With a couple of notable exception (thug, scout, a couple of decent archetypes) it seems like the rogue class is not taken seriously.
Have this all been intentionally? It would be weird but How could it not be? Or the answer is "yes" or the universe conspired in a fantastical way to give the rogue their actual status.
/Rant
:(
Maybe they're slowly phasing the rogue out so that they can finally butcher one sacred cow in the next edition that has been damaging the game since it was added.
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Quick, lets misunderstand what the OP is saying and talk about how rogues are fun even though he didn't say a thing about them not being fun!
Much more seriously, I don't think there's any resignation, official or not, but I do think there's a lack of good content and I don't think that's entirely intentional, though it might feel like it sometime.
The OP like many others seem to think that the rogue has been buried in a coffin of irrelevance, said opinion to be founded by cratefuls of theorycrafting who base their conclusions on spreadsheets rather than play.
We don't misunderstand what the OP is saying. We simply flat out don't agree with it.
And yet, when I give examples of play experience, it is dismissed by those who think the Rogue is fine by telling me that, clearly, my play experience is not typical.
I wouldn't be so quick to cry "theorycrafting" when there are no theories being put forth, only facts.
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Any case anybody is curious, here is my lv15 alchemist/master chymist.
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Racial Trait: Heart of the Wilderness
Str 18
Dex 16 (+2 belt of physical might)
Con 16 (+2 belt of physical might)
Int 20 (+4 headband of int)
Wis 12
Cha 7
Stat increases went into str, int and dex.
FEATS
1 Iron Will, Toughness
3 Power Attack
5-15 Extra Discovery
DISCOVERIES
2 Feral Mutagen
4 Spontaneous Healing
5 Lingering Spirit
6 Healing Touch
7 Infusion
8 Wings
9 Preserve Organs
10 Mummification
11 Fast Bombs
12 Greater Mutagen
13 Force Bombs
14 Evasion (Advance Mutagen from Master Chymist)
15 Holy Bombs
GEAR
+2 Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Con)
+4 Belt of Vast Intellect
+1 Holy Courageous Bodywrap of Might Strikes
Celestial Chain Mail (+3 Chain Mail)
Deliquescent Gloves
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Ring of Protection
Necklace of Adaptation
Admixture Vial
Wayfinder with Clear Spindle Ioun Stone
ABILITIES
8d6 Bombs
Greater Beastform Mutagen, gain 3 abilities of my choice from the beastshape 2 spell. Usually pounce, grab and trip unless I need something different.
Mutate
Brutality
OFFENSES
Now since he fights with natural attacks, I have included the +6 str bonus from greater mutagen.
MELEE (without buffs)
Claws(x2) without PA: +20 hit, 1d6+10 +1d6 acid +2d6 holy damage
Bite without PA: +20 hit, 1d8+10 +2d6 holy damage
Claws(x2) with PA: +16 hit, 1d6+18 +1d6 acid +2d6 holy damage
Bite without PA: +16 hit, 1d8+18 +2d6 holy damage
RANGED (without buffs)
Bombs +18/+13/+8, 8d6+5 fire damage, 13 splash
Force Bombs deal 8d4+5 force damage and target falls prone if they fail a reflex save
Holy Bombs deal 8d6+5 holy damage to evil creatures and makes the target staggered on a failed save
MELEE (with bulls str/heroism combined extract)
Claws(x2) without PA: +25 hit, 1d6+12 +1d6 acid +2d6 holy damage
Bite without PA: +25 hit, 1d8+12 +2d6 holy damage
Claws(x2) with PA: +21 hit, 1d6+20 +1d6 acid +2d6 holy damage
Bite without PA: +21 hit, 1d8+20 +2d6 holy damage
The combined extract will also give +2 to hit with each bomb.
DEFENSES
HP: 183 +2d10+14 (Greater False Life), dies at -33 hp or -5 Con
AC Unbuffed: 24 (+9 Armor, +3 Dex, +2 Deflection)
AC Buffed: 39 (+9 Armor, +5 Dex, +2 Deflection, +9 Natural Armor [Barkskin+Mutagen], +4 Shield)
Saves (with just the +6 str/+4 dex mutagen)
Fort: 18, Reflex: 20, Will: 13 (Immune to possession and mind control)
Saves (with mutagen and heroism)
Fort: 20, Reflex: 22, Will: 15 (Immune to possession and mind control)
Immune to frost and nonlethal damage as well as paraylsis and sleep effects.
Ablative Barrier effectively gives me DR5/- to the next 10 attacks that hit me.
With stoneskin that becomes DR10/Adamatine, DR5/- to the next 10 attacks that hit me.
If you want to be more rogue like, take vivisectionist and trade the bomb discoveries for something else. And possibly drop the master chymist levels too.
4E rogues were fine.
Granted I only played mine from 1-8, but I was really useless. Purportedly a striker, I did barely comparable damage to the dragonborn paladin beatstick my friend Phil played.
4E rogues were fine.Granted I only played mine from 1-8, but I was really useless. Purportedly a striker, I did barely comparable damage to the dragonborn paladin beatstick my friend Phil played.
From what I remember, they were really supposed to be more Striker-controllers. By going straight striker with them, in terms of feat and power choices they did a little more damage, but missed out on debilitating effects that they could do.
The big thing that made them strikers, however, was that they were single target focused. They might not take down their single target in one hit, but they could inflict some seriously nasty status effects fairly regularly.
Pathfinder also tried to do some of this with the rogue, with some rogue talents, but the problem is that it's usually just better to deal damage, and with 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, they fall short of other classes in combat, where the rogue hit about as often as everyone else in 4e, and the way roles tended to work, the opponent would generally try to target the Fighter first, so he could be flank-buddies with the fighter, and be in less danger.
Still, I like my houseruled Talent, which basically lets you pull off a free dirty trick combat maneuver, whenever you hit for sneak attack damage, and another one which grants Agile Maneuvers and a scaling bonus to certain Maneuvers, that gets them around Full BAB classes in terms of Maneuvers.
*Summons Dead Horse*
*Leaves before it stinks up the place*
I was under the impression that Campaign Traits were only intended for characters participating in particular adventure paths. If this interpretation is correct, players are only able to select the "Trap Finder" if they're playing in a Mummy's Mask game. My suspicion is that traps will be more common in said adventure, and that the party needs at least one person that can deal with 'em. With that in mind, it doesn't seem to be a death sentence for the rogue; the trait just facilitates gameplay in the event that no one wants to play a rogue.
That said, there's till the issue of the vivisectionist alchemist. My solution is simply to ban 'em. Solves the issue pretty easily, in my opinion.
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I can link you my build if you like. I'm quite proud of it.I did not want to comment on a class I did not have a lot of experince with so erred on the side of caution. A AC of 31 even if one needs extract, items and magic to do is pretty damn good. I just makes me no longer want to play a Rogue at all.
The Alchemist can get a really nice AC. I tote a 31 on my 10th level Alchemist.
If it's not too much trouble go ahead.
I was under the impression that Campaign Traits were only intended for characters participating in particular adventure paths. If this interpretation is correct, players are only able to select the "Trap Finder" if they're playing in a Mummy's Mask game. My suspicion is that traps will be more common in said adventure, and that the party needs at least one person that can deal with 'em. With that in mind, it doesn't seem to be a death sentence for the rogue; the trait just facilitates gameplay in the event that no one wants to play a rogue.
That said, there's till the issue of the vivisectionist alchemist. My solution is simply to ban 'em. Solves the issue pretty easily, in my opinion.
I think you are correct about the intent of the "Trap Finder" trait. They already have the "Keen Mind/Nimble Fingers" trait which is +1 Disable Device & Disable Device as a class skill. It seems odd they would introduce a new trait which completly invalidates the original trait and grants a class ability via a trait unless it was to be used in this AP specifically.
That said, there's till the issue of the vivisectionist alchemist. My solution is simply to ban 'em. Solves the issue pretty easily, in my opinion.
That's not a solution. You just force your PCs to play a sub-par class to get full-sneak attack progression.
IMHO bombs are better anyways even with their "limitations" taken into account. To my experience sneak attack is far more limited in occurrence than bombs.
Perhaps it's not a solution you'd be happy with, but it's a solution nonetheless.
That said,
1.) I'm fully aware of the problems with the rogue class; I've got a number of house rules to make them more viable.
2.) I'm not a fan of any archetype that steps on the toes of another class, especially when they steal mechanics from said class. If you want sneak attack, play a rogue (or multiclass assassin or master spy).
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Perhaps it's not a solution you'd be happy with, but it's a solution nonetheless.
A solution has to fix a problem. You aren't fixing a problem. Niche protection doesn't make a class fun, worth playing, or balanced.
For example, if I banned all full BAB classes in the game except fighters, that doesn't make fighters better, or do anything to fix the problems with fighters.
The problem was: alchemists can benefit from sneak attack.
The solution was: no they can't.
The problem was: alchemists can benefit from sneak attack.
The solution was: no they can't.
How is "alchemist can benefit from sneak attack" a problem with the rogue?