Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the Swashbuckler. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following updates apply to the Swashbuckler.
• Change "daring-do" to "derring-do". Delete the last sentence of the ability. It can be reduced by the Signature Deed feat. For this playtest, treat swashbuckler levels as gunslinger levels for grit feats. Treat panache as grit for those feats.
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike. In the second paragraph, replace the first sentence with the following: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack". Add the following to the end of the paragraph: The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs".
• In the Bonus Feat description, change the first sentence to read "At 4th level, and every fourth level thereafter..." (in other words, the table is correct).
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Warning : This post doesn't include actual playtest feedback. While I'm conscious it will not be as useful as actual gameplay experience for the purposes of the playtest, I feel I have enough armchair experience tinkering with rules myself and following the multiple rules arguments which happened over the years to point some details hich I feel need to be reconsidered.
That said, the swashbuckler looks awesome. Easily the most exciting of the bunch for me ! Some points I noticed though :
- The cumulative -4 penalty to the Parry deed is pretty harsh on Small characters. I'd love to play a halfling swashbuckler who punishes naysayers with sheer acrobatic awesomeness to prove size doesn't matter, or even a kobold or goblin, but this is a hard blow when you get slammed in the face with this penalty right there. I'd love to see a David-vs-Goliath, small-sized-friendly archetype that's less about mobility and 5-foot steps as per the Recovery deed, and more about dodging/standing grounds/fighting defensively against bid baddies to parry/counterattack without sucking a humongous penalty (... unless it comes with other mechanical advantages against bigger monsters, of course, but in the same fashion, I would hope said archetype doesn't shoe-horn the swashbuckler into slaying giants while all you want as a player is to be able to contribute against the most common giants in everyone's campaigns, aka medium/sometimes large humanoids).
- The Swashbuckler should just have Weapon Finesse right at first level. The rogue previously had the same issue and Paizo rightly patched it. As of now, the swashbuckler receives the feat at 2nd level but will obviously need it at 1st level, meaning this 1st level will either go toward a feat tax which will be punished by becoming useless at 2nd level, or it will be a world of pain until you finally level up and contribute to the fight. Unless you build it on Strength, and get a useless feat at 2nd level. Why play an awesome class if it's to feel useless in the first level ? I get that you may now want to give it for free at 1st level to avoid dipping though, but it is easily resolved by granting characters with this feat the option to pick another one.
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Porting over a clarification from the Jason's Facebook page:
The swashbuckler's precise strike ability appears to be missing some text. I can't make any sense out of this sentence: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to her precise strike’s damage bonus on the next attack." There seems to be a verb missing, and perhaps more besides...
looks like something got mixed up in edit. That should read "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack"
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I like that the class interacts with the feat Dervish Dance (ISWG). Sarenrites for life!
That said, will there be "Panache Feats" like "Extra Panache"? If so, they feel like they would be vital for testing higher level builds.
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I was going to say that this was another attempt to make a dex based class that was better off with strength until I remembered this overlooked part of the Dervish dance feat
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Happy stabbing.
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Two points of feedback as well, from reading through and building a test character (for PFS will try him live tomorrow night):
1. Expanding a bit on Maxx's second point, I feel the same in that regard. Not only do they have to wait until second level, but ALSO its not the real feat either. So a Swashbuckler doesn't qualify for either Piranha Strike or Dervish Dance, both of which would be right up their alley as possible ways to increase their damage.
2. On top, most of the level 1 Deeds are dependent on having Combat Reflexes. Otherwise you can Parry, but you can NEVER Riposte. I also feel that Combat Reflexes is mandatory for the Swashbuckler. I'm not sure if there is a way to give them that (or an equivalent ability, like maybe they can take as many opp attacks in a round as they had Panache at the end of their last turn) without altering the balance.
I did a build I plan to crank out at PFS tomorrow, and I had to go with 13 STR for Power Attack. It seems that swashbuckler is really suited for 18-20 crit weapons (love it!) but requiring them to be piercing really limits it to... rapiers (and wakizashi I guess, if you want to get the prof.).
On the first level feeling useless thing, that's not exactly new. Wizards are pretty gimpy at 1st level. From reading all the advanced classes, most of them seem to come into bloom at 4th level.
I had a third point, but Shisumo addressed it above!
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I wish they'd just given him Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat instead of just the effects, since Weapon Finesse is a prereq for a LOT of things the Swashbuckler might want (Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, Duelist PrC...)
I guess you could dip Bard (dawnflower dervish) to get Dervish Dance...
But it messes up with my swashbuckler from the Shackles theme!!!
I came here to say I was disappointed in the Swashbuckler since it seemed like it was pigeonholed into using a Rapier and not being too good with it (despite the cool Deeds and stuff) but that line from Dervish Dance I've never noticed before makes me do a 180 on that.
Pretty cool class with a solid fighting style easy to achieve built in, now.
I wish they'd just given him Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat instead of just the effects, since Weapon Finesse is a prereq for a LOT of things the Swashbuckler might want (Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, Duelist PrC...)
Though this is a good point, hrm.
Getting to Dervish Dance makes the Feat tax even more Feat tax-y.
Firearms. Where are they? Seriously. A pirate isn't a pirate without a flintlock pistol. You call it a fusion of the gunslinger class even... I see some cool abilities. Charisma-based grit is neat. The Opportune Parry ability is kind of cool. But... no pistol? No gun training? No Sword and Pistol feat at higher level? No *finally* dealing with the fact that TWF'ing with a sword and a pistol is nearly impossible in Pathfinder? ...What happened guys? C'mon.
Should've kept up with the previous announcements as they appeared. =)
The gun using one will be an archetype, since the default assumption is that in Golarion guns don't exist or at least are excruciatingly rare.
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Firearms. Where are they? Seriously. A pirate isn't a pirate without a flintlock pistol. You call it a fusion of the gunslinger class even... I see some cool abilities. Charisma-based grit is neat. The Opportune Parry ability is kind of cool. But... no pistol? No gun training? No Sword and Pistol feat at higher level? No *finally* dealing with the fact that TWF'ing with a sword and a pistol is nearly impossible in Pathfinder? ...What happened guys? C'mon.
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Firearms. Where are they? Seriously. A pirate isn't a pirate without a flintlock pistol. You call it a fusion of the gunslinger class even... I see some cool abilities. Charisma-based grit is neat. The Opportune Parry ability is kind of cool. But... no pistol? No gun training? No Sword and Pistol feat at higher level? No *finally* dealing with the fact that TWF'ing with a sword and a pistol is nearly impossible in Pathfinder? ...What happened guys? C'mon.
It was stated before that some of the Swasbuckler archetypes will re-introduce guns. But we don't have archetypes yet
Dixie, I think the feel here was to do a fancy fighting swashbuckler, using panache as a grit-like mechanic to do various tricks and deeds.
As to sword and pistol, I would suggest looking at the human-specific gunslinger archetype in the Advanced Race Guide, the Bucanneer, if I remember
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Firearms. Where are they? Seriously. A pirate isn't a pirate without a flintlock pistol. You call it a fusion of the gunslinger class even... I see some cool abilities. Charisma-based grit is neat. The Opportune Parry ability is kind of cool. But... no pistol? No gun training? No Sword and Pistol feat at higher level? No *finally* dealing with the fact that TWF'ing with a sword and a pistol is nearly impossible in Pathfinder? ...What happened guys? C'mon.It was stated before that some of the Swasbuckler archetypes will re-introduce guns. But we don't have archetypes yet
Gotcha. Thanks for the information then, that was very helpful. :)
Unfortunately, that also means I have no desire to playtest the class until I get a gun archetype. That's the part I was looking forward to. I hope everyone enjoys the class. The theme is awesome, but in my opinion, if you're going to go pirate, go all the way. Don't just do the swordplay elements because they fit traditional fantasy - it's just a charisma-based duelist at that point. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and not having guns keeps this class from being the whole.
I was hoping for dex to damage, like gun training. would let more swashbucklers use various weapons, rather than all of them dervish dance
Join the magus conga line?
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Dixie, I think the feel here was to do a fancy fighting swashbuckler, using panache as a grit-like mechanic to do various tricks and deeds.
As to sword and pistol, I would suggest looking at the human-specific gunslinger archetype in the Advanced Race Guide, the Bucanneer, if I remember
I never play humans, so that archetype is useless to me unfortunately... Too boring. :p
(That's just my opinion, nobody has to agree with it)
Otherwise, yes that is a good point, for every other player it's probably "good enough." ^^;
The theme is awesome, but in my opinion, if you're going to go pirate, go all the way. Don't just do the swordplay elements because they fit traditional fantasy - it's just a charisma-based duelist at that point. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and not having guns keeps this class from being the whole.
I like the flavor so far. I don't think it is useful for only the pirate theme, for example I could see it as a nobleman's sport in Taldor or something like that. But neither pirate or taldan noble fits getting Dervish Dance.
I'm probably just putting Agile on my rapier instead...
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I was really hoping for a more Fighter, less 3.5 Swashbuckler.
I would love an archetype that lets you use all the Swashbuckler abilities without finesse weapons! Let me use Panache with a longsword or great sword!
And are all the deeds immediately available at the level stated, or do you have to pick one where they are on table 1-12?
And are all the deeds immediately available at the level stated, or do you have to pick one where they are on table 1-12?
I would assume all available at the listed level, as a gunslinger's
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The theme is awesome, but in my opinion, if you're going to go pirate, go all the way. Don't just do the swordplay elements because they fit traditional fantasy - it's just a charisma-based duelist at that point. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and not having guns keeps this class from being the whole.I like the flavor so far. I don't think it is useful for only the pirate theme, for example I could see it as a nobleman's sport in Taldor or something like that. But neither pirate or taldan noble fits getting Dervish Dance.
I'm probably just putting Agile on my rapier instead...
That's true. The Taldan swordsman theme would fit this archetype beautifully. Witty, charming dilettante with a penchant for fine swordplay - the set of abilities here in this playtest fit that idea perfectly. I honestly try to avoid Dervish Dance because everyone else uses it and I've never been terribly fond of Sarenrae, but I can see the mechanical desire to have it, and I'm sorry it doesn't fit.
That said, it comes back to my original point of that theme going better with the Duelist prestige class moreso than the swashbuckler, with the exception of duelist being Int-based rather than Charisma. Now, if you wanted to do Swashbuckler ==> Duelist, that would probably work brilliantly (A good nobleman needs to be both charming *and* intelligent, after all!). Still though, guns were the selling point for me feeling this would actually be pirate themed.
I would assume all available at the listed level, as a gunslinger's
And are all the deeds immediately available at the level stated, or do you have to pick one where they are on table 1-12?
That is the correct assumption.
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I like this class, but it has a few problems, IMHO.
1- I too was hoping for Dex (or maybe Int) to damage. Level to damage is not as organic and blocks multi-classing way too much, IMHO. If this is out of fear of stacking the damage bonus with Dervish Dance, just change it to Dex (or Int) replacing the Str bonus to damage rolls, instead of adding to it, you can't replace Str twice, so it'd be okay. Give the class cool features and it won't be just a dip class.
2- Reflex as the only good save. This is not a minor disadvantage. This is a crippling weakness in any game that goes beyond 7th level, and a death sentence at 11th level and beyond. Swashbucklers should have good Fort too, IMHO.
3- Forced Weapon selection. Rapier is iconic, but I'd like the option to use my abilities with other 1-handed weapons too, such as whips, chakrams and longswords. That would add a lot of variety to Swashbuckler builds. I suggesting expanding the ability to work with one-handed Slashing weapons too.
4- Why not simply give it Weapon Finesse instead of going the needlessly complicated route of giving the class "all the benefits of Weapon Finesse"? Keep it simple.
The next ones are not exactly problems, but stuff I think could be added to the class without any problem:
5- While 4 skill points is okay, I'd expect a Swashbuckler (such as Zorro and Robin Hood) to have a least 6 + Int. Not that much of a problem, though.
6- Mobility. Swashbucklers don't really get anything to make them more mobile. Other than the Darring-do deed, that is, but that deed is terrible. Give it the ability to add Cha to Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks, spend Panache to move and attack more than once (maybe move as a swift action?) or something like that.
I think the major thing is they are really worried about Swashbuckler being a Dip class like it was in 3.5. I think they played it too safe.
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If we could get a real Finesse feat for the Swashbucklers, along with an addendum that they can treat Aldori Dueling Swords as piercing weapons, that could open an alternative to all dervish dancers, all the time (which will make that 'here's weapon finesse, but it's not real weapon finesse so you still have to buy weapon finesse' class ability really taste like ashes).
But better to just give a native route for Dex to damage, I think.
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Compared to the Gunslinger, statistically the Swashbuckler is probably going to be getting a lot more panache points.
The swashbucklers most used weapons are going to be the rapier and the scimitar, both with 18-20 crit range. Compared to guns that only crit on 20, and the swashbuckler will most likely be seeing roughly three times as many panache points.
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Don't forget that while Rapier is the first thing to come to mind, this class also meshes with Scimitar (via Dervish Dance), the Aldori Dueling Sword (via Dueling Mastery), Dagger, Short Sword, and other light piercing weapons.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."
So if I am reading that right, then it allows you to Finesse other one handed weapons than the Rapier, so Heavy Pick, Morning Star, Short Spear,and a few others are now viable options.
Yeah, dwarven swashbuckler with a pick. Let that one sink in....
Don't forget that while Rapier is the first thing to come to mind, this class also meshes with Scimitar (via Dervish Dance), the Aldori Dueling Sword (via Dueling Mastery), Dagger, Short Sword, and other light piercing weapons.
Now, that makes me think... I'd assumed the 'counts as a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist' was referring to the PrC. But would that be Duelist, rather than duelist, and duelist just means anyone with this feat and that sword?
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So, maybe a silly question: would it be possible to farm panache points by critting or killing creatures summoned by an ally, assuming they had enough HD? They wouldn't be helpless or unaware, they just wouldn't retaliate.
There is not much style or, dare I say, panache in slaughtering creatures that offer no resistance.
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I'm with Lemmy on 1 and 3. I was hoping for something other than Str to damage. Dex, Int, Cha, one of those. I would also like for it to be able to use it's abilities with a wider ranges of weapons. One handed slashing weapons would be nice.
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So, maybe a silly question: would it be possible to farm panache points by critting or killing creatures summoned by an ally, assuming they had enough HD? They wouldn't be helpless or unaware, they just wouldn't retaliate.
That's just the worst kind of cheese dude... don't be that guy.
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I am not sure about this class, as the list of deeds seems a pain to keep track of. I agree with the weapon finesse comments, and I'm curious why they didn't just gain weapon finesse, but I don't think you should go the dex to damage route as others have suggested, as that creates it's own set of problems.
This is one I have trouble visualizing in play just looking at it on the page. Seems clunkly and overly complicated to me, but we shall see.
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3- Forced Weapon selection. Rapier is iconic, but I'd like the option to use my abilities with other 1-handed weapons too, such as whips, chakrams and longswords. That would add a lot of variety to Swashbuckler builds. I suggesting expanding the ability to work with one-handed Slashing weapons too.
on the forced weapon selection I wholeheartedly agree, considering how easily this class with slashing weapon option could blend in to the Taldan Duelist for Golarion I might even go so far as to include the Falcata as an additional weapon on the list, though I suppose that could be an archetype.
This class is in dire need of a "Greater Weapon Finesse feat" Also the second level "weapon finesse" kinda sorta bonus feat would be better served as actual weapon finesse.
Also, scimitars shoud not be only great choise for this class.
Scimitar is a horrible choice for this class, as it is slashing. It's only viable with Dervish Dance.
At first glance, I thought it was only viable with rapier.
I wish they'd just given him Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat instead of just the effects, since Weapon Finesse is a prereq for a LOT of things the Swashbuckler might want (Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, Duelist PrC...)
I completely agree with RainyDayNinja on this one. It would make things a whole lot easier to just grant them the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat instead of just the benefits of the feat.
Also, like others have pointed out, I feel like the class is forced into using only a handful of weapons, with the rapier being the most obvious one. Maybe they can open it up to light and one handed piercing AND slashing weapons.
Can I use the buckler and still get dodge bonuses?
I feel as though this class is pushing too hard for Errol Flynn when swashbucklers were not so one dimensional. Open up the weapon selection to finesse light piercing/slashing.
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For the gun-using archetype:
I thought about it some, and I was wondering: Instead of getting Weapon Training and Improved Critical with the sword, you could get to add Dex to damage with your pistol and find some creative way of being able to load your gun while TWF'ing? I know that sounds like a lot, but in my opinion it's a lot more balanced than getting Improved Critical at 5th level.
And whysomeone do not take dervish dance?
Maybe you dont want to pay the two-feat tax of Weapon Finesse + DD?
Maybe you hate the idea of it being tied to Serenrae?Maybe you just pay for an agile enchantment and its the same thing?
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I wodl say that the mechanical benefits form DD surpass the penalty you listed. And by the way worshiping saranrae is not a prerequisite from the feat.
I personally would spend the money on agile on a rapier and save me the two feats, honestly.