OK, I thought the idea of this entire industry was to have fun, I didn't realize that excelling as a class meant that your character was good in combat, why not have everyone play wizards/clerics/1st tier characters then?
fixed it for you.
More seriously, I see nothing wrong with wanting the class you play to have the ability to contribute meaningfully both in and out of combat. The fact that other classes do the rogues job better then the rogue, combined with the fact that his in combat ability is subpar can be frustrating.
Can you play a rogue and have a good time anyway? yes
Does that mean that the rogue is where he should be in ability? no
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OK, I thought the idea of this entire industry was to have fun,
It is. This is generally done by allowing people to reasonably succeed in most situations and meaningfully contribute to the group as a whole's success.
I didn't realize that excelling as a class meant that your character was good in combat, why not have everyone play fighters then?
Because every class has combat utility. Even the rogues are designed around combat. It's why one of their primary abilities is "sneak attack". It's an attack. It's Combat.
It would be nice if they were closer to other classes in that regard.
I guess its a PFS thing, so I can successfully ignore. Have fun!
Actually, if you read this thread, there's a guy who's playing a rogue in PFS right now. This guy. He seems to be doing fairly well, from what I can tell.
Very few people are actually saying that you can't have fun with a rogue.
Most people are saying that other classes exceed the rogues by such a substantial margin, that it can be frustrating, and especially, if you don't know what you're doing.
(There are also several calls to dissolve the rogue class and replace it with other classes that do its job better than it does.)
The point is: yes, the rogue is viable. It's more viable in home games than PFS stuff, but it can function in PFS. You just need to choose well and be careful, and you need to go in knowing what to expect.
Almost nothing generates more disappointment than frustrated expectations.
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Anyone feel like volunteering for writing a new rogue guide?
I have a feeling that a compilation of my posts may end up reading like a sort of guide.
I'm starting to notice that the Advice board seems to have some issues with giving good advice to Rogue players. I was really surprised by the contents of this thread, full of, honestly, not very good advice.
I wonder if the Rogue is a stronger class than the Paizo boards make it out to be, simply because of board wisdom.
-Matt
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So, after reading this thread, and doing some research (updated Rogue Edolon's guide to Rogues was invaluable here), i kinda figured out the following basic build, that makes use of the Scout Rogue archetype and includes two levels of Lore Warden Fighter archetype (which you can check here):
LVL_BAB_CL_____FEATS/FEATURES
1___0___ROG1___Two-Weapon Fighting
2___1___ROG2___Finesse Rogue
3___2___FTR1___Dodge, Mobility (Bonus Feat)
4___3___FTR2___Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Feint (Bonus Feat)
5___4___ROG3___Shadow Strike
6___5___ROG4___Scout's Charge, Rogue Talent (at choice)
7___5___ROG5___Spring Attack
8___6___ROG6___Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9___7___ROG7___Improved Two-Weapon Feint
10__8___ROG8___Skirmisher, Rogue Talent (at choice)
This build is not completely filled, as you can see (open Rogue Talents at Character levels 6 and 10, no specific race, no selected traits, no ties with specific weapon), in order to allow more customization. It can even be combined with the Sniper Rogue archetype, for more opportunities to use Sneak Attack. The Lore Warden Fighter archetype is neat, since it replaces Combat Expertise for Bravery, even if you don't qualify for the feat (i.e, Int 12-). Hope it can be helpful.
P.S: My first successful attempt to use a spoiler in a post. Yay!!!! =D
So, after reading this thread, and doing some research (updated Rogue Edolon's guide to Rogues was invaluable here), i kinda figured out the following basic build, that makes use of the Scout Rogue archetype and includes two levels of Lore Warden Fighter archetype (which you can check here):
** spoiler omitted **
This build is not completely filled, as you can see (open Rogue Talents at Character levels 6 and 10, no specific race, no selected traits, no ties with specific weapon), in order to allow more customization. It can even be combined with the Sniper Rogue archetype, for more opportunities to use Sneak Attack. The Lore Warden Fighter archetype is neat, since it replaces Combat Expertise for Bravery, even if you don't qualify for the feat (i.e, Int 12-). Hope it can be helpful.
P.S: My first successful attempt to use a spoiler in a post. Yay!!!! =D
I'm a little confused by the build you have. You spent a lot of feats dedicated to full attacks, and a lot of feats dedicated getting only a single attack.
You might get to use your sneak attack frequently, but your damage will still be pretty low. You're build is effectively trying to accomplish contradictory things.
I'm a little confused by the build you have. You spent a lot of feats dedicated to full attacks, and a lot of feats dedicated getting only a single attack.Maybe because he wants to be able to do both?
Exactly... The point of this build is providing you more options and opportunities to use sneak attack, either you're flanking or not, adding versatility to your character.
Here how my Rogue work. In kitchen today!
It Thanksgiving! Need last-minute easy impressive side dish to bring somewhere? Try Crock Pot Macaroni and Cheese! Add Cleric liver for extra flavor.
It Chanukah! Latkes never boring. But also try yummy Scallion Pancakes! Add Raging Barbarian Sweat to dipping sauce for extra kick.
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The point is: yes, the rogue is viable. It's more viable in home games than PFS stuff, but it can function in PFS.
I've watched more than one PFS scenario end on everybody getting only half loot because everyone's character's skills sucked and they blew the McGuffin even though they otherwise easily slaughtered everything in sight.
Yes: there are lots of other classes out there which overlap part of a rogue's feature-set. Few of them in practicem however, are ever designed by their players with that in mind.
Exactly... The point of this build is providing you more options and opportunities to use sneak attack, either you're flanking or not, adding versatility to your character.I'm a little confused by the build you have. You spent a lot of feats dedicated to full attacks, and a lot of feats dedicated getting only a single attack.Maybe because he wants to be able to do both?
Your missing my point. Yes, you'll be able to reliably get off a sneak attack with these feats, but to what effect.
You've invested a ton of feats to be able to run up and get a single attack in via spring attack. This attack doesn't have the investment necessary to deal any meaningful damage. You'll be swinging with a 8 BAB bonus, that doesn't get a charge bonus, and it'll only add 4d6 damage (+14) via the sneak attack. It just isn't a reliable way to deal damage.
On the other hand your heavy investment in the feint feats will allow you to get 3 attack at level 10, which isn't that impressive, and only 1 of those is at your highest bab. If these attacks all hit you're looking at 12d6 damage from sneak attack (42 average).
To make my point clearer, look at a vivisectionist alchemist at this same level. They'll have a mutagen, pounce (with 3 attacks at their highest bab), 5d6 sneak attack, and still have spells they can utilize.
A Paladin/Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger will have a far larger degree of reliable hits that deal far more damage.
Essentially your build handicaps itself by giving it the ability to always get off sneak attack, while not realizing that sneak attack along will not carry the classes damage.
Granted this isn't a problem that your build alone has. Most build that have been posted show that making a reliable rogue in combat is difficult to say the least.
Got a crazy idea. Omit sneak attack entirely and redesign the class so that it uses old AD&D backstab.
As in x3 damage at level 1, and scale it up.
How to boost a Rogue's attack bonus:
-Weapon Finesse, possibly through the Finesse Rogue talent. This feat enables a Rogue to focus on Dexterity and not have to worry about boosting Strength. Of course, there is the damage issue due to having less Strength, an issue which can be somewhat alleviated with things like the Dervish Dance feat, an agile weapon, and Sneak Attack.
-Weapon Focus, perhaps through the Weapon Training talent. This one's pretty obvious, though it can get a bit tricky when using it with certain two-weapon fighting builds. It's more desirable to dual-wield two of the same weapon with this feat, meaning that, for example, kukri/kukri becomes more desirable when compared to rapier/kukri.
-The heroism spell. This spell adds to attack rolls, skill checks, and saves, all of which the Rogue enjoys. It also lasts a really long time, meaning that a Rogue can get a lot of mileage out of scrolls and potions. This is a great spell to ask your teammates for.
-The courageous weapon enhancement. This enchantment boosts the bonus provided by morale effects, particularly heroism.
-The Gang Up feat. The effectiveness of this feat for achieving flank (and thus +2 to attack rolls) is very dependent on the Rogue's party. Since the Rogue gets so much benefit from flanking his target, this feat is definitely worth considering. In my experience, its usefulness tends to drop off in later levels, once hasted full-attacks become very lethal and full-attacks with enough allies threatening the target become rare. Things just die too quickly for Gang Up to work in the later levels.
-The menacing weapon enhancement on an off-hand weapon or an amulet of mighty fists. A situational +2 to hit is not worth a +1 weapon enhancement on a primary weapon, but it pulls double-duty when on an offhand weapon or amulet, since the bonus applies to attack rolls beyond ones made with the menacing weapon itself. Combines well with Gang Up. Also note the adjacency requirement.
-The Militia trait from Dragon Empires Primer. +1 to hit when flanking.
-The Outflank feat. This one requires a teammate to take it as well, but is very strong for a Rogue when a teammate has it. It also gives a Rogue a reason to wield a weapon with a large critical threat range, like a rapier or kukri, as doing so increases the chances of granting the teammate a free attack. I'll have to look into whether it combines well with Butterfly's Sting from Faiths of Purity.
-A bane baldric. This is a very strong item for Rogues, because its ability to provide +2 to hit as a swift action is very useful, on top of the extra 2d6+2 damage. It's a great buy at 10,000gp. Note that unless the wearer has Inquisitor levels, it only works with light or one-handed weapons, weapons which fit a Dex-based Rogue's weapons of choice.
It's worth noting that activating a bane baldric requires a swift action. So do many of the Ninja's ki powers. Since the wearer cannot use more than one swift action per round, this means that the Ninja's ability to spend ki for an extra attack conflicts with the powers of the bane baldric, reducing the extra attack's usefulness as a go-to ability in every full-attack.
-Boots of speed. Not only do they give a +1 bonus to attack rolls, not only do they grant an extra attack in a full-attack, but they also increase the Rogue's movement speed, enabling him to move into a flanking position or other ideal attack position more easily.
That's all for now. I hope you guys can find some useful tips in there.
Got another one for the list:
The Sword of Subtlety also gives a +4 bonus to hit/damage on sneak attacks, though it's a bit pricey.
Pardon the doublepost, but i've a build thrown together:
I saw the horizon walker thread earlier today and thought, "why not?". So here's a "stealth beyond stealth" rogue/horizon walker who does lots of roguey things (sneaks around, spots traps, stabs things, woos the ladies) and can flank with himself eventually.
Str 10
Dex 16 (5pts +2 racial) +4 level (4th/8th/16th/20th)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 13 (3pts) +1 level (12th)
Wis 12 (2pts)
Cha 14 (5pts)
traits:
-militia (+1 to hit while flanking)
-???
feats:
ROG 1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Stealth)
ROG 3 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
ROG 5 - Endurance
ROG 7 - Hellcat Stealth
HW 8 - Skill Focus (Perception)
HW 9 - Dampen Presence
ROG 11 - Dimensional Agility
ROG 13 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (shadow)
ROG 15 - Dimensional Dervish
ROG 16 - Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
ROG 17 - Dimensional Savant
ROG 19 - ???
talents (total rogue level):
2 (2) - Combat Trick (dervish dance)
4 (4) - Offensive Defense
6 (6) - Trap Spotter, Minor Magic (Detect Magic)*
11 (8) - Weapon Training (Scimitar)
13 (10) - Feat (Dimensional Assault)
15 (12) - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, stealth, disable device, perception), Terrain Mastery*
17 (14) - Improved Evasion
19 (16) - Crippling Strike
* - bonus rogue talent from human FCB (remaining 5 spent on hp)
BAB: +15 (0/1/1/1/0/1 | 1/1/1 | 1/1/0/1/1/1/0/1/1/1/0)
Saves: 10/13/7 (before gear)
abilities:
Sneak attack (9d6)
Trapfinding (+8)
Trap Sense (+5)
Evasion (improved later)
Scout’s Charge
Skirmisher
Favored Terrain (Urban +6, Astral +4, Forest +2)
Terrain Mastery (Astral)
Terrain Dominance (Astral)
Notable gear to look out for:
-+X menacing heartseeker keen Scimitar
-headband of ninjutsu
-bane baldric
-ring of swarming stabs
-boots of soft step
-lots of oils of negate aroma
-lots of potions of heroism
-the ‘usual' defensive stuff (ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, etc.)
-the best light armor you can get your grubby little hands on (with enough max dex to not limit it)
Attack bonuses: weapon focus (+1), weapon enhancement (+1-5), bane baldric (+2), and heroism (+2). more with haste from a party member.
While flanking you get the above along with: +2 (flanking), +2 (menacing), and +1 (trait)
After setting up sneak--which is likely, given respectable stealth and HiPS in light and dark, from blindsight/sense, tremorsense, and scent--you hit them at flat-footed AC.
You also get +1d6 precision damage from the ring of swarming stabs and +2d6 from the bane baldric
also; trap spotter, minor magic (detect magic), and eventually skill mastery (acrobatics, stealth, disable device, perception) make for easy trap detection and removal, while still being useful at other things (namely detecting magic, stealth, perception, and acrobatics). you also get more skill masteries with more int, and more DimDoors/day with more wis, so consider getting items for those and a dex/con belt.
While this isn't the strongest thing in the world, it's respectable at least.
As a GM, my experience is this;
If you are getting in one sneak attack per turn, you are doing it right.
If you are getting in more than one sneak attack, you are pissing me off....
My rogue pisses me off a lot ("don't worry, I'll only use dust of disappearance on bosses :X ").
Let me the count the ways you can sneak attack
1. Use the 10 feet of speed you have over your fighter buddy to flank
2. Use acrobatics to flank
3. Use a reach weapon to flank
4. Attack while invisible (bonus points for greater invisibility)
5. Feint
6. Win initiative (aggravatingly easier done than said)
7. Get a surprise attack by bluffing
8. Get a surprise attack with disguise
9. Get a surprise attack using the revised stealth rules that everyone should have always been using anyway but apparently mostly weren't
10. Use stealth in combat anyway
11. Do #10 using bluff
12. Do #4-#11 from the cozy distance 30 feet with a ranged attackAnd those are just the ways that every rogue should be able to exploit. Don't even get me started on things like Phantasm Wizard allies.
IMO, it's way harder for NPCs to be successful Rogues than it is for players to be.
Yep, you know how to make it work. Rogues with reach weapons are very funny. Sandpoint under attack by goblins, a rogue hiding in a shrub extends out their polearm, as if it was an innocuous branch, and sneak attacks a goblin as it runs past. Everyone laughs.
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Is the problem with the rogue class or peoples expectations
I've never had any trouble with rogues they won't out damage the fighter or mage classes but I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO
Is the problem with the rogue class or peoples expectations
I've never had any trouble with rogues they won't out damage the fighter or mage classes but I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO
The problem most people have is that the rogue doesn't have a niche that isn't filled better by someone else. Bards, rangers, and alchemist can make better skill monkeys. Every other class has a more consistent and reliable way to contribute to encounters.
Other then spotting magical traps, there isn't anything that the rogue can do that other classes can't do better. That's the whole point of the thread to come up with a build that has a rogue being on par with the other classes.
The point is: yes, the rogue is viable. It's more viable in home games than PFS stuff, but it can function in PFS.I've watched more than one PFS scenario end on everybody getting only half loot because everyone's character's skills sucked and they blew the McGuffin even though they otherwise easily slaughtered everything in sight.
Yes: there are lots of other classes out there which overlap part of a rogue's feature-set. Few of them in practicem however, are ever designed by their players with that in mind.
In those cases, it seems substantially more a perception/mastery problem than a system problem.
Just because people made a skill-poor party without rogues doesn't make the rogue valuable.
It's kind of like me saying that in real life my tutoring business doesn't make much money because I don't have a manual credit card machine.
The machine is fully capable of generating money to me (in theory), but there are a lot of ways that will generate money in a far superior fashion. The machine is outdated and inferior in most ways. There are a few - passingly few - cases in which the machine will be superior.
But my own limited financial gain has little to do with the presence of such a machine and everything to do with the fact that I'm not tutoring many people.
Skill points (and stealth/sneak attack/trapfinding) in a party is similar to money. You need them? Yes. There are a lot of ways to get them. The rogue is one, and it's decent enough at what it does. If a party doesn't use a rogue, though, they have plenty of other ways; if they don't use those ways, it's not that they don't have the rogue, it's that they're not using their options.
Other classes have come along and proven superior in their own ways, mostly out-dating the rogue. Rogues can still be useful and viable, but they're just less so, comparatively. The definition of a "weak" class.
Still useful, though.
Is the problem with the rogue class or peoples expectations
I've never had any trouble with rogues they won't out damage the fighter or mage classes but I DON'T EXPECT THEM TOThe problem most people have is that the rogue doesn't have a niche that isn't filled better by someone else. Bards, rangers, and alchemist can make better skill monkeys. Every other class has a more consistent and reliable way to contribute to encounters.
Other then spotting magical traps, there isn't anything that the rogue can do that other classes can't do better. That's the whole point of the thread to come up with a build that has a rogue being on par with the other classes.
Ehm...
I think that you got a few things wrong, first of all anyone has the ability to find magical traps, you need trapfinding in order to disable them and trapfinding isn't that hard to come by, in fact i have made a list.1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*
*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name
Is the problem with the rogue class or peoples expectations
I've never had any trouble with rogues they won't out damage the fighter or mage classes but I DON'T EXPECT THEM TOThe problem most people have is that the rogue doesn't have a niche that isn't filled better by someone else. Bards, rangers, and alchemist can make better skill monkeys. Every other class has a more consistent and reliable way to contribute to encounters.
Other then spotting magical traps, there isn't anything that the rogue can do that other classes can't do better. That's the whole point of the thread to come up with a build that has a rogue being on par with the other classes.
Ehm...
I think that you got a few things wrong, first of all anyone has the ability to find magical traps, you need trapfinding in order to disable them and trapfinding isn't that hard to come by, in fact i have made a list.
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks Leo1925, I mispoke. This makes the point even more clear that the rogue really doesn't have any niche other then disabling magical traps which can be attained by those who do the rogues job better in the first place.
Which brings us back to looking for a build that makes the rogue at least semi-competent. The sap builds are the closest I've seen that do this btw, but it's difficult to constantly get the flat footed needed to make it work.
Are there any feats or abilities that let you sneak attack prone opponents? Any ability that lets you deny your opponents their Dex to AC on AoOs?
Halfling opportunists capstone comes to mind
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How to boost a Rogue's attack bonus:
-Weapon Finesse, (etc)
Try:
-- Stealth and/or concealment nerfing the target's armor-class by rendering them flat-footed. This is the big one, as it also grants you your sneak-attack dice versus the target.
-- UMD and equipment synergies granting the above. A rogue with a wand of Obscuring Mist and a Goz Mask would solo most PFS scenarios. -- That's an extreme example, but it highlights how one caters to the virtues of the class.
A strength-obsessed rogue with dumped charisma and dumped INT, no (TWF or Rapid Shot) and no scrolls or smokesticks in his pack is just abandoning all the scaling synergies of the class. (Then he gets on the internet and whines how rogues suck, when he was never really playing a rogue at all.)
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it's difficult to constantly get the flat footed needed to make it work.
Exploit class/race/attribute synergy.
I.e., halflings make considerably worse barbarians than half-orcs, and humans (especially strength-obsessed) make considerably worse rogues than halflings.
1st level comparison....
human strength rogue: 15,14,14,14,12,07 array
STR+17 INT:07
DEX:14 WIS:14
CON:14 CHA:12
halfling dexterity rogue: 15,14,12,12,12,12 array
STR-10 INT:14
DEX+17 WIS:12
CON:12 CHA+14
Assuming 1 rank in Stealth at 1st level, the human rogue is +6 while the halfling is +11. At 5th, after the 4th-level bump and an item purchase boosting the prime state to a 20, comparative Stealth scores are Human: +10, Halfling: +17.
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Are there any feats or abilities that let you sneak attack prone opponents? Any ability that lets you deny your opponents their Dex to AC on AoOs?
Got TWF? Good boy. Dirty Trick them with your first attack to blind them. Your remaining attacks now qualify for sneak.
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Dirty trick -> blinded -> sneak attack
???
Profit!!!1!1
Is the problem with the rogue class or peoples expectations
I've never had any trouble with rogues they won't out damage the fighter or mage classes but I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO
Some people want invisible barbarians. I haven't had a problem with rogues or ninja characters *shrugs*.
Dirty trick -> blinded -> sneak attack
???
Profit!!!1!1
One particularly sneaky char I knew, threw hot ground up chillis into the faces of his enemies. I know a bit about chillis (as I grow them) so I went with it. Irritation, temporary blindness, lot of screaming, opening for a sneak attack.
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One particularly sneaky char I knew, threw hot ground up chillis into the faces of his enemies. I know a bit about chillis (as I grow them) so I went with it. Irritation, temporary blindness, lot of screaming, opening for a sneak attack.
Ahh.... That brings back fond memories.
Like Nicos, I highly doubt that a decent TWF dirty trick rogue would work. You're starting at a 3/4 BAB, and it doesn't even come online until level 8 (+6 bab minimum).
Feats:
- Combat expertise (required, and means you need 13 intelligence)
- improved dirty trick (needed, but as a standard action not that great)
- quick dirty trick (now you can do it instead of an attack, but you'll have a hard time reaching the cmb)
- agile maneuvers (needed if you want to use dex, which you probably will if you're twf)
- greater dirty trick (the extra +2 is needed, and makes it last longer which is nice)
This just seems way to feat intensive instead of just using two weapon feint.
Is it a cool concept, yes. But I just don't see it being reliable.
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Can somebody post the TWF disty trick rogue? maybe level 10, i have doubts about it effectiveness (taking into account the numer of the feats you need, the low BAB, THe hig CMD of monster and and the penalty from TWF).
Realize that dirty tricks are likely to be something you deploy from stealth/surprise, and should therefore should ideally have a huge bonus to the check. (In the example above, I was responding to an example in which somebody had their opponent prone.)
Are there any feats or abilities that let you sneak attack prone opponents? Any ability that lets you deny your opponents their Dex to AC on AoOs?Got TWF? Good boy. Dirty Trick them with your first attack to blind them. Your remaining attacks now qualify for sneak.
That's an excellent combination, and definitely worth using.
Sadly, said excellent combination in no way answers either of my questions. I'm looking at the wonders of a reach rogue who has a tripping-build ally. I haven't been able to find any feat or ability that lets you get sneak attack damage on your AoOs, or against prone targets (while prone targets have an AC penalty, they aren't denied Dex to AC).
One could dip maneuver master monk to get a free dirty trick maneuver with a full attack.
Yeah, some people go on and on about the bab, but the truth is in the dice roll on that day and then over multiple sessions. Full bab chars can make do with low rolls, at times it can seem too low risk (yawn, I roll a 5, I hit, yay?). As a rogue if you don't get too many low rolls, you are sitting pretty. Anyone recall rolling almost all 5s and 6s on sneak attack damage? I do. Good times.
This is why as much as I like fighters with 20/x4 weapons, I really rarely roll 20s with these chars. Doesn't mean I am going to have a go at them, it was how the dice went. For rogues and ninjas my dice rolls have mostly been pretty good. Live the life of risk and adventure suckers.
Yeah, some people go on and on about the bab, but the truth is in the dice roll on that day and then over multiple sessions. Full bab chars can make do with low rolls, at times it can seem too low risk (yawn, I roll a 5, I hit, yay?). As a rogue if you don't get too many low rolls, you are sitting pretty. Anyone recall rolling almost all 5s and 6s on sneak attack damage? I do. Good times.
This is why as much as I like fighters with 20/x4 weapons, I really rarely roll 20s with these chars. Doesn't mean I am going to have a go at them, it was how the dice went. For rogues and ninjas my dice rolls have mostly been pretty good. Live the life of risk and adventure suckers.
So basically what you're saying is ignore statistics and hope for good rolls. I'm looking for something more reliable then "I sure hope I roll high". If that's the excuse then how is it different from rolling a peasant and telling my group "don't worry if I roll well I might be able to help you out".
You mean the post where you said "if you get 1 sneak attack off you're doing it right, but if you get more then 1 you're pissing me off". Yeah, I skimmed that one due it not making sense on it's head.
A rogue getting ideal conditions where they get all of their sneak attacks off is just barely on par with the other classes. Heck lets take a look at John Doe Fighter vs rogue with 1 sneak attack at 5th level.
Fighter hits with his greatsword dealing (2d6+ 6(strength)+ 6(power attack)+ 1 (weapon training)+2 (weapon specialization)= 22 damage on average
Rogue hits with his lets say longspear (highest damage simple weapon that I saw)= 1d8 + 6 (strength, assuming it is high) + 3 (power attack)= 13.5
Worse, the rogue will hit less often then the fighter, and the fighter doesn't have to get in a special position to get those attacks off.
Heck, lets look at a twf rogue who gets his full attack in and is flanking. Assuming short swords (b/c why not)
2d6 (both weapons) + 3 (strength) + 2 (power attack) + 1d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (strength) + 1 (power attack) + 1d6 (sneak attack)= 21
This gets worse as you add in levels and the fighter starts getting iteratives.
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Zero, I recently ran ninja who exploited the Goz mask + Obscuring Mist trick; I triple-classed him ninja/cleric[deception]/monk[flowing] at levels 1-2-3 for a BAB of 0.
Factoring the relative disparity between his target's blotto dexterity scores and flat-footedness combined with Midnight Stalker, he waxed opponents like a raging barbarian once he started flogging their beached whale armor-class.
As a straight class, the tactics would have taken a little longer to come together, but it was still in the cards.
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Okay, so I have been playing Rogues for quite some time, and have had much better luck in this class than any other I have played. The problem, as we have determined, is the damage that the Rogue can deal out. The Rogue’s abilities seem to set for the ROLEplaying aspect, rather than the ROLLplaying aspect (which isn’t bad. Through some awesome roleplaying, I was able to acquire an adamantine golom of my very own). But, the idea of being only centered on the roleplaying is not entirely true. The problem is avoiding the lure to power-game. Rogues are meant to look at problems from different angles. I have found that being a skill monkey is fun, especially for stealing magic items (can’t tell you how many amazing things I’ve gotten), and archery, if done right, can be amazing. Unfortunately, continually getting that sneak in is hard. I will post a couple of my entire builds later, but for a basic idea of feats, I would suggest getting Weapon Finesse (use a rapier – they count), Combat Expertise, and Improved Feint. Wait. I almost forgot…ALWAYS get Improved Initiative. As a Rogue, getting the in the first strike is invaluable. Back on topic – what is the point of the above feats?
*Sneak Attack
*Feint
*Sneak Attack
*Feint
*Repeat until target is dead...
“Voila”
Oh, and Use Magic Device is also an amazing skill to invest in – just make sure you REALLY INVEST in it, if you are going to. You want to have 100% chance of succeeding by the time you are lvl 10.
I am also experimenting with the following build, and am wondering if I could get the input of more experienced players. I am mostly doing it for fun (I like the ROLEplaying part of Pathfinder more than the ROLLplaying).
Name: “The Wandering Fool” - Kashikoi Bushi (Meaning “Clever Warrior”)
Race: Kitsune
Character Class and Level: 6th lvl Rogue; 1st lvl Barbarian
Homeland: Varisia
Size: med.
Gender: Male
Age: 19 yrs.
Height: 5’ 10”
Weight: 125lbs.
Hair: red
Eyes: green
Alignment: CG
-----
STR: 11 (+0)
DEX: 20 (+5)
CON: 8 (-1)
INT: 17 (+3)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 16 (+3)
HP: 52
Languages: Common, Sylvan; Aklo, Elven, Tengu
4 Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (curve blade, elven); Realistic Likeness (Kitsune); Throw Anything; Dodge
4 RT: Fast Stealth; Weapon Finesse; Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: curve blade, elven); Combat Trick: Agile Maneuvers
---
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Rogue Arch-type: Scout
I haven’t determined much else yet, but this is the basic concept. 40 ft. speed, Loss of Uncanny Dodge due to Scout Arch-type compensated with Uncanny Dodge from Barbarian at lvl 2, Rage; Abstaining (against my own judgment) from Improved Initiative so I can obtain Realistic Likeness; and finally…Throw Anything…
GREATSWORDS!!!
I shall be flinging greatswords at my enemies, smiting them down with Roguish fury! (ranged weapon, apply Dexterity mod. no penalty because of feat = a nice "+ 10" to attack...ooh rah!)
Hope I was helpful, give me your thoughts, and thanks!
I've been pondering a Carnivalist Rogue with a Valet Familiar and some teamwork feats. Familiar has to be small size in order to be able to flank so of the basic familiars a donkey rat seems to be your best bet. Once you hit level 7 it's mephit all the way baby! Small size for flanking, 3 attacks per round, awesome mobility and some evil spell abilities, and the ability to wield wands, what's not to love.
Things to consider:
1) Teamwork feats: Precise Strike seems a given as does Outflank. Outflank combos nicely with Paired Opportunist (and keen weapons) as does the Opportunist advanced Rogue Talent. Broken Wing Gambit plays well with these feats also...
2) Familiar Survivability: A familiar has half it's master's HPs and it's animals base AC plus a scaling natural armor DC (+1 per half level). The level 1 Donkey rat has an AC of 15, investing in some form of light masterwork armor might come in handy. Íncreasing the rogues HPs is a good idea so thoughness and high Con sound like a good idea. Mephits fly and use wands so they come in handy.
3) Familiar Offenses: Outflank will be your friend here. A familiar with multiple natural attacks would come in handy as well as a good dex.
4)Additional familiars: Arcane Bloodline can grant you an extra familiar. However I'm not sure if it shares your teamwork feats.
A proposed build for a Half Elf Carnivalist, Half Elf as you'll need EWP. Equipment will require a keen Fauchard.
STR 18
Dex 14
CON 14
Int 8
WIS 12
CHA 10
Traits:
??? Any good ones for familiars?
??? Any ones that increase HP?
1 Precise Strike
EWP: Fauchard
3 Combat Reflexes
5 Toughness/Broken Wing Gambit
7 Imp. Familiar
8 Rogue Talent: Outflank
9 Paired Opportunist
10 Opportunist
Alternatively you could also go dex based TWF but you'd prolly have to forgo the whole paired opportunist stick due to heavy duty feat requirements. This might be better as I feel above build is trying to achieve too many things at once.
Any thoughts?
Zero, I recently ran ninja who exploited the Goz mask + Obscuring Mist trick; I triple-classed him ninja/cleric[deception]/monk[flowing] at levels 1-2-3 for a BAB of 0.
Factoring the relative disparity between his target's blotto dexterity scores and flat-footedness combined with Midnight Stalker, he waxed opponents like a raging barbarian once he started flogging their beached whale armor-class.
As a straight class, the tactics would have taken a little longer to come together, but it was still in the cards.
Ha! Beached whale armor-class. Hilarious! Course some will say you are doing it wrong, and that the char is weak, because they don't have the bab. What a limiting idea. Repetition does not make something right, or the typical better than ingenuity.
Okay, so I have been playing Rogues for quite some time, and have had much better luck in this class than any other I have played. The problem, as we have determined, is the damage that the Rogue can deal out. The Rogue’s abilities seem to set for the ROLEplaying aspect, rather than the ROLLplaying aspect (which isn’t bad. Through some awesome roleplaying, I was able to acquire an adamantine golom of my very own). But, the idea of being only centered on the roleplaying is not entirely true. The problem is avoiding the lure to power-game. Rogues are meant to look at problems from different angles. I have found that being a skill monkey is fun, especially for stealing magic items (can’t tell you how many amazing things I’ve gotten), and archery, if done right, can be amazing. Unfortunately, continually getting that sneak in is hard. I will post a couple of my entire builds later, but for a basic idea of feats, I would suggest getting Weapon Finesse (use a rapier – they count), Combat Expertise, and Improved Feint. Wait. I almost forgot…ALWAYS get Improved Initiative. As a Rogue, getting the in the first strike is invaluable. Back on topic – what is the point of the above feats?
*Sneak Attack
*Feint
*Sneak Attack
*Feint
*Repeat until target is dead...“Voila”
Oh, and Use Magic Device is also an amazing skill to invest in – just make sure you REALLY INVEST in it, if you are going to. You want to have 100% chance of succeeding by the time you are lvl 10.
I am also experimenting with the following build, and am wondering if I could get the input of more experienced players. I am mostly doing it for fun (I like the ROLEplaying part of Pathfinder more than the ROLLplaying).Name: “The Wandering Fool” - Kashikoi Bushi (Meaning “Clever Warrior”)
Race: Kitsune
Character Class and Level: 6th lvl Rogue; 1st lvl Barbarian
Homeland: Varisia
Size: med.
Gender: Male
Age: 19 yrs.
Height: 5’ 10”
Weight: 125lbs.
Hair: red
Eyes: green
Alignment: CG
-----
STR: 11 (+0)
DEX: 20 (+5)
CON: 8 (-1)
INT:...
I quite like feint and sneak attacks with a two handed bastard sword. Voila indeed.
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So the rouge is a victim of power creep extra abilities,feats, and classes that have been realised after the CRB have made them redundant
How ever you cut it, its the extra books that have knee capped the rouge