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A year ago they created a rule that allowed a complete re-write between levels 1 and 2. Adding to an existing rule is a much smaller change.I wish we'd get an answer to the various ways people have proposed to get trait retraining into the guide. Treating them as feats makes the most sense to me, but some people have had cheaper proposals.I doubt this is going to happen. This would essentially be adding a rule to Pathfinder that does not exist in Pathfinder and has no more reason for being in the PFS rules than it does in the Pathfinder rules.
There was a specific reason for adding that rule in PFS. Namely, giving newbs who were unfamiliar with Pathfinder a chance to change their minds early on. There is no specific reason why PFS should have Trait retraining rules when the Pathfinder rules do not. For whatever reason the designers chose not to allow Trait retraining. It would be presumptuous of the PFS staff to assume they are wrong and create a rule for it.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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There was a specific reason for adding that rule in PFS. Namely, giving newbs who were unfamiliar with Pathfinder a chance to change their minds early on. There is no specific reason why PFS should have Trait retraining rules when the Pathfinder rules do not. For whatever reason the designers chose not to allow Trait retraining. It would be presumptuous of the PFS staff to assume they are wrong and create a rule for it.A year ago they created a rule that allowed a complete re-write between levels 1 and 2. Adding to an existing rule is a much smaller change.I wish we'd get an answer to the various ways people have proposed to get trait retraining into the guide. Treating them as feats makes the most sense to me, but some people have had cheaper proposals.I doubt this is going to happen. This would essentially be adding a rule to Pathfinder that does not exist in Pathfinder and has no more reason for being in the PFS rules than it does in the Pathfinder rules.
It's also the one thing that many people said they were disapointed with in the new guide. And judging from this thread, the thing people most wanted to retrain.
Traits get added to the books a lot. Many of them are better suited to the character. Yes, the additional traits feat is out there - but that doesn't help if you already have a trait in that category.
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There was a specific reason for adding that rule in PFS. Namely, giving newbs who were unfamiliar with Pathfinder a chance to change their minds early on. There is no specific reason why PFS should have Trait retraining rules when the Pathfinder rules do not. For whatever reason the designers chose not to allow Trait retraining. It would be presumptuous of the PFS staff to assume they are wrong and create a rule for it.A year ago they created a rule that allowed a complete re-write between levels 1 and 2. Adding to an existing rule is a much smaller change.I wish we'd get an answer to the various ways people have proposed to get trait retraining into the guide. Treating them as feats makes the most sense to me, but some people have had cheaper proposals.I doubt this is going to happen. This would essentially be adding a rule to Pathfinder that does not exist in Pathfinder and has no more reason for being in the PFS rules than it does in the Pathfinder rules.It's also the one thing that many people said they were disapointed with in the new guide. And judging from this thread, the thing people most wanted to retrain.
Traits get added to the books a lot. Many of them are better suited to the character. Yes, the additional traits feat is out there - but that doesn't help if you already have a trait in that category.
A lot of PFS people might want rules for being able to play a Borg in PFS. Does that mean the PFS staff should create rules for playing a Borg even though the Pathfinder designers did not see it fit to do so?
Look at it this way. You are hired as a game designer by Paizo and given the task of writing an official rule book. You decide, as a professional game designer, for whatever reason, to not include a particular option in the official rules you are writing. Another employee at Paizo, who was hired to organize and run organized and was not hired specifically as a game designer and was not tasked with writing these rules decides you were wrong in not including this rule, so he writes his own rule for PFS thus over ruling your decision. Do you really think Paizo is going to allow that? It sets a very bad precident.
The only way I see this happening is if the designer actually intended for Trait retraining to be in the rules and, for whatever reason, they were omitted from the final version. Even then, Paizo's traditional method of fixing this sort of issue is to errata it in the next printing. The only reason they might do it before that is if the error is so egregious it has to be corrected right now. I do not think including Trait retraining falls within this category.
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I might consider retraining Alertness on my Gunslinger/Inquistor (Munny). I mostly took that feat because I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
So, if I have an idea for a "better" feat at some time, I may retrain that single feat.
For my tiefling wizard, Angelo Gaius Cassius Fiero, I might consider retraining the rank or two of Diplomacy he took, if I add Diplomacy into his Headband of Intellect. I only took the rank(s) to try and get him back to a +0... and getting the skill through magic would be more fitting (in several ways).
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It's also the one thing that many people said they were disapointed with in the new guide. And judging from this thread, the thing people most wanted to retrain.
Traits get added to the books a lot. Many of them are better suited to the character. Yes, the additional traits feat is out there - but that doesn't help if you already have a trait in that category.
Your disappointment shouldn't be directed at the guide over this. Your disappointment should be directed at Ultimate Campaign. You could have read the retraining rules back when Ultimate Campaign came out and noticed that there were no guidelines for retraining traits. Perhaps if you all petition the design team enough, they'll release a blog on it providing rules for retraining traits and then PFS can incorporate those rules.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Your disappointment shouldn't be directed at the guide over this. Your disappointment should be directed at Ultimate Campaign. You could have read the retraining rules back when Ultimate Campaign came out and noticed that there were no guidelines for retraining traits. Perhaps if you all petition the design team enough, they'll release a blog on it providing rules for retraining traits and then PFS can incorporate those rules.It's also the one thing that many people said they were disapointed with in the new guide. And judging from this thread, the thing people most wanted to retrain.
Traits get added to the books a lot. Many of them are better suited to the character. Yes, the additional traits feat is out there - but that doesn't help if you already have a trait in that category.
I was trying to avoid speculation, and didn't look at the book until it became relevant to PFS. Yes, the failing is in Ultimate Campaign, not the guide; but it's be easy enough for the guide to fix it.
They probably didn't include trait retraining because that is supposed to involve your character's background. The idea of retraining your background is a bit weird...
Would it be legal to retrain to take a feat like Fey Foundling which has a "Must be level 1 to take this feat" requirement?No. You still have to meet the prerequisites of a feat to retrain into it.
On that basis, you should lose the benefits of the feat immediately as soon as you reach 2nd level.
Wouldn't a more practical limit be that you need to ensure that the number of feats you have with the "Can only be taken at 1st level" restriction does not exceed the number of feats you get at 1st level?
After all -- retraining does theoretically allow you to change every single one of your class levels to a different class. Compared to that, retraining feats and even traits is a trivial change.
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I am sorely tempted to retrain my bloodline from Fey to Sylvan; at 16th level - and with a robe of arcane heritage - that would give me a 17th druid level animal companion. Tiger? T-rex?
Perfect for Form of the Dragon III, or just casting anti-magic field on it and having it go grapple enemy spellcasters.
Of course, at this point it's down to modules and specials, but still...
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Alchemist 7 / Barbarian 2 / Master Chymist 1 - Weapon Finesse to Extra Discovery or Ricochet Splash Weapon
I took Weapon Finesse at first level because I thought it made sense. And then Drunken Brute (drink as a move action) and Feral Mutagen hit me. Everything is great except for that Weapon Finesse feat. I'll probably swap it for Extra Discovery (frost bomb) or Ricochet Splash Weapon.
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Would it be legal to take a level of druid, then retrain out of druid, but retain the druidic secret language? From a roleplay perspective it'd make sense that you'd still know the language, and its not really a class feature.
It'd also be cheaper then spending 20 PP to learn a language...The free retrain is the most expensive, ouch.
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Would it be legal to take a level of druid, then retrain out of druid, but retain the druidic secret language? From a roleplay perspective it'd make sense that you'd still know the language, and its not really a class feature.
It'd also be cheaper then spending 20 PP to learn a language...The free retrain is the most expensive, ouch.
Hi there!
You don't remember druidic, at all. You spent some time in the woods, picked some flowers, and now want to devote your life to singing showtunes. It was all a very vivid dream brought on by marsh gas.
Alchemist 11/Barbarian 1/Master Chymist 2 - I'm going to retrain the 1 Barbarian lv into another Alchemist lv.
My Alchemist was the first character I played beyond lv 2 and a small lv dip in Barbarian sounded good at the time. I later regretted that decision and I'm now able to change that.
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Once my bard hits 6th level and gets versatile performance (Comedy) I will be able to retrain my skill points out of bluff and intimidate into other things.Exactly not what the rule is for.
Why do you think this isn't intended? Serious question, btw.
I'd have thought this kind of thing is EXACTLY what is intended by the rules (note, I don't have Ultimate Campaign. I've read the SRD but that often leaves out fluff).
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Once my bard hits 6th level and gets versatile performance (Comedy) I will be able to retrain my skill points out of bluff and intimidate into other things.Exactly not what the rule is for.Why do you think this isn't intended? Serious question, btw.
I'd have thought this kind of thing is EXACTLY what is intended by the rules (note, I don't have Ultimate Campaign. I've read the SRD but that often leaves out fluff).
Actually, this is exactly what the rule *is* for. There was a discussion on the forum a while back about bards getting stuck with skills in things they needed to use before they got versitile performance, and whether they could shift those skill points once they got vp. The developers suggested that they would look into retraining rules to fix that.
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I have a Champion of Irori. Because I really wanted the early access to the Ki pool he is a Level 4 Monk/L1 Paladin. But as soon as I hit L2 of the CoI and get the Ki pool I'm going to retrain that level of monk into a Level of Paladin.
Perfect. That way I get the best of both worlds.
Hmm. Its expesnive, but I just realized this makes a Mystic Theurge completely painless (using the new SLA rules).. Go Wizard 3, then just as one levels up to 4th level retrain a level of wizard to cleric )or vice versa). Eliminates the only really bad level left for a Mystic Theurge (level 3)
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My Ulfen fighter, a hearty lad from the Islands, has sailed his longship on many adventures. But it is only now at level nine that he can take viking archetype. I was so sad when people of the north came out and he was third level. It seemed unfair that he would be unable to take advantage of this namesake Archetype. I am so totally stoked that he can retrain into it. Thank you Society team for allowing awesomeness,
I love to hear stuff like this.
Thanks again Mike!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My Eldritch Knight took Additional Traits back when Magical Knack was banned. I might just retrain from Additional Traits (Magical Lineage, World Traveler) to Additional Traits (Magical Knack, World Traveler). It'd be nice if there was a lower-cost way to retrain traits, but at least I *have* the option (due to using a feat).
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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My Eldritch Knight took Additional Traits back when Magical Knack was banned. I might just retrain from Additional Traits (Magical Lineage, World Traveler) to Additional Traits (Magical Knack, World Traveler). It'd be nice if there was a lower-cost way to retrain traits, but at least I *have* the option (due to using a feat).
Brilliant. Sadly, it won't work for me, but I like the idea.
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I'm going to retrain my conjuration school 1st level ability from acid dart to shift. The only question is, does switching from "conjuration" to "teleportation" count as one retrain? Does "conjuration with acid dart" to "conjuration with shift" count as one retrain? Or will I have to do two retrains (one from "conjuration" to "any other school" and then back)?
I'll also retrain my defensive combat training to something else. Back when I made the character there weren't a bunch of amazing options for wizards. That has since changed.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Demoyn, retraining is not a one-size-fits-all mechanic that you can use to alter whatever aspect of your PC you choose. If you check out Ultimate Campaign and read the retraining rules, you'll see that there are separate sections of rules for different aspects of your PC that you might want to retrain, and they all work slightly differently (even if it's just a different number of days required, in some cases) and not every aspect of your character can even be retrained at all. I suggest reading the retraining rules more thoroughly, and then seeing what questions you might have left afterwards.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Okay, I think I understand now: the question is whether you can retrain from a school to its own subschool, or if you'd have to retrain to an entirely different school and then back to the subschool? Is that right? I guess I was thrown off by the references to only wanting to change a specific school power, which isn't even a legal retrain at all.
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Yes. You have it now. You can retrain specific school powers, it was just repetitive so they didn't list it. You do it just like I'm doing it.
I was hoping that Mike might clear this up, or if he's already done so that someone would have a link. It's a bit confusing. If I don't get clarification before my next game I'll just take the more favorable option.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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In that case, I'm looking at this line from the Class Feature section of the retraining rules:
Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one
To me, that reads like not only could you lose "Conjuration" and then gain "Conjuration (teleportation)", but you could even (if you were really bored and felt you had too much gold/PP) choose to lose "Conjuration" and then gain "Conjuration" right back and giggle to yourself a little.
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Archetype retraining just seems way too expensive (in PA terms). I want to retrain my Alchemist 9 (Internal Alchemist)/Master Chymst 1/Fighter 1 into a Beastmorph. He was created before Ultimate Combat was out so Beastmorph was not even a possibility during his creation.
According to the rules, it takes 5 days PER class ability. So to go from Internal Alchemist to vanilla Alchemist, it would take 15 days (throw anything, swift poison, swift alchemy). It would then take 15 days to go into Beastmorph (swift poison, swift alchemy, poison resist). So it would cost 30 pa for this change, which seems high as it only cost 7 days to retrain an entire class level.
Two questions that I have though.
1) Is poison resist +2/+4/+6 3 "separate" class abilities that need trained (15 days) or just a progression of the same (5 days)?
2) Since both archetypes replace swift poison and swift alchemy could the retraining cost be dropped down to 5 days to remove breath mastery (returning throw anything), 5 days to change disease resist (swift alchemy) to beastform mutagen (swift alchemy), 5 days to change uncanny dodge (swift poison) to improved beastform mutagen (swift poison), and then 5 days to change poison resist to greater beastform mutagen. So this would be 20 days/pa instead of 30. I know the RAW says you have to drop one archetype and then gain the other, but why shouldn't you be able to go straight from one to the other instead of going back to "base"?
Depending on the answer for 1), what about when 1 feature replaces multiple features (e.g. greater beastform mutagen replaces poison resist 2/4/6/immunity)? Would this be 5 days as you are only adding 1 class feature (greater beastform mutagen), or 20 days as you are replacing 4 class features?