FAQs about SLAs, and the impact on Prestige Classes

[Luthril]

Thank you for your feedback

[WalterGM]

andreww wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

RainyDayNinja wrote:

I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!

And now SKR has confirmed that if an SLA cites a spell, you use the spell's level.

Yep, Cleric (Fate/Trickery)2/Sorcerer(Empyreal)1/Mystic Theurgex is now completely race agnostic and ends up with level 6 Cleric spells and Level 5 Wizard spells all working off Wisdom.

Something like this, a sort of reverse Angel Summoner.

** spoiler omitted **...

Wouldn't the caster level on that sorcerer be 10?

EDIT: Derp. Magical Knack.

[andreww]

Hmm for a blaster version I am considering cleric2/sorc1 crossblooded draconic and orc tieflng and switching a domain to fire. Sorcerer casting would be for buffs and utility while fire domain opens up preferred spell fireball. You need to set the cleric level highest to allow higher level metamagic effects. I may build it tomorrow.

[andreww]

Nix that will have to be aasimar as tiefling stat mods dont work well

[Joe M.]

The Emberkin Aasimar boosts Int and Cha and has a fire-spell-boosting trait (don't recall how effective it is, though).

[Quandary]

I think there is significant reason for Trickery Domain to not grant an Arcane SLA.
Certainly, by normal SLA rules based on spell lists it would be Arcane.
But the Domain itself it inherently Divine, if you are cut of from your Divine source of power, you lose the ability, etc.
It seems a stretch that an inherently divine ability (the domain) is granting an arcane SLA.
Why would the ability that provides a Saving Throw bonus vs. Divine magic NOT apply to a Domain ability?

[andreww]

Quandary wrote:

I think there is significant reason for Trickery Domain to not grant an Arcane SLA.

Certainly, by normal SLA rules based on spell lists it would be Arcane.
But the Domain itself it inherently Divine, if you are cut of from your Divine source of power, you lose the ability, etc.
It seems a stretch that an inherently divine ability (the domain) is granting an arcane SLA.
Why would the ability that provides a Saving Throw bonus vs. Divine magic NOT apply to a Domain ability?

Because SKR's clarification makes it very clear, if it references a spell you use that spell. Copycat references Mirror Image, Mirror Inage is on the Wizard list, Copycat is Arcane.

[Quandary]

Right, that would be the spell list based rule that I referenced.
I see that SKR's update to the previous FAQ removed the following wording:
" or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity)."
Which I thought should apply even more strongly to Clerical Domains, Oracle abilities, etc. Kind of strange change, considering I don't think that was a serious debate topic in the thread getting lots of FAQ hits that prompted the change. Some people had thought that part was overly vague, although it didn't seem that SKR was phazed by that angle of critique. So... per Current FAQ:
Domain/Mystery grants you normally Arcane spell as Bonus Spell: Divine. Domain/Mystery grants you normally Arcane spell as SLA: Arcane... /shrug

[Quandary]

Hey, built-in Arcane Strike qualification from level 1 for Druid Archetype with no Wildshape restrictions (Menhir Savant, a great Archetype anyways):

Quote:

Spirit Sense (Sp): At 1st level, a menhir savant can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind. This ability replaces nature sense and wild empathy.

Another 'based off of' SLA, since it's on Sor/Wiz as well as Cleric lists, it defaults to Arcane SLA, voila!

[andreww]

So, I have been knocking about the whole Cleric/Sorcerer blaster possibilities. What I get here is a character who can use Fireball from either his Cleric prepared spells or Sorcerer spell slots with Preferred Spell. Charisma is fairly low, just enough really to be able to manage his top spell levels as most of his Arcane spells are buffs. I would much preferred to do this via Greater Spell Specialisation to save a feat but unfortunately you cannot as it specifies sacrificing a prepared spell to use.

At lower levels it applies Spell Specialisation to Burning Hands and then maybe Scorching Ray with it as a Sorcerer spell know which are subsequently traded out.

Magical Knack is skipped to allow Magical Lineage Fireballs. Intensified Empowered Fireball is using a level 5 spell slot for 19d6+38 damage which isn't too bad. DC is only 22 which isn't ideal but even a passed save is netting on average over 50 damage to everything in the area.

Against Fire Immune foes you switch to Intensified Empowered Snowball out of level 4 Sorcerer spell slots for 10d6+10 damage a time. If you find yourself struggling to fit a Fireball in around your allies then you are looking at Empowered Scorching Ray with two ranged touch attacks going 6d6+12 each. If you can find an extra caster level from somewhere (Death Knell may be an option) then you get to add a third ray.

The build is a little bit MAD needing high Wisdom for casting DC's, a 13 Int for Spell Specialisation and at least 15 Cha eventually for level 5 Sorcerer spells. As such Dex and Con suffer a bit leaving you with fairly low HP. Emergency Force Sphere eventually resolves that but its a long time in coming.

Blaster MT:

Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Cleric (Asmodeus Separatist) 2 Mystic Theurge 9 Sorcerer (Crossblooded) 1
LN Medium Outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +28

--------------------
Defense
--------------------

AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 65 (2d8+10d6+12)
Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +20
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
Weakness light sensitivity

--------------------
Offense
--------------------

Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks magic claws (5 rounds/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Augury (1/day), Light (At will), See Invisibility (1/day)

Sorcerer (Crossblooded) Spells Known (CL 10):
5 (3/day) None Known
4 (5/day) Emergency Force Sphere
3 (7/day) Haste, Fly
2 (7/day) Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
1 (7/day) Shield, Mage Armor, Liberating Command, Snowball
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Disrupt Undead, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 13), Prestidigitation (DC 13)

Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11):
6 (2/day) Heal, Heal, Wall of Fire, Empow
5 (3/day) Fire Shield, Breath of Life (DC 23), Plane Shift (DC 23), Commune
4 (5/day) Death Ward, Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Wall of Fire, Summon Monster IV, Protection from Energy, Communal
3 (6/day) Magic Circle against Chaos, Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic, Burning Hands, Inten, Heightened (+1)(DC21), Speak with Dead (DC 21), Daylight, Stone Shape
2 (6/day) Resist Energy, Resist Energy, Sound Burst (DC 21), Sound Burst (DC 21), Burning Hands, Inten (DC 20), Grace, Grace
1 (6/day) Murderous Command (DC 19), Murderous Command (DC 19), Shield of Faith, Shield of Faith, Burning Hands (DC 20), Sanctuary (DC 19), Sanctuary (DC 19)
0 (at will) Guidance, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Detect Poison

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------

Str 7, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 26, Cha 16
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 15

Feats: Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Intensified Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Fireball), Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (Fireball)

Traits: Magical Lineage (Fireball), Reactionary

Skills Acrobatics +3, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +7, Fly +9, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +25, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +6, Survival +12 (+14 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Fly

Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal

[b]Special Qualities: aura, bloodlines (draconic [red dragon [fire]], orc), cleric channel negative energy 1d6 (5/day) (dc 13), combined spells (5th), domains (fire), fire bolt (11/day), forbidden rites (fate inquisition), spontaneous casting

Equipment +3 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of mighty constitution +2, Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of the eagle, Feather step slippers, Handy haversack (1 @ 0 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Robe of arcane heritage, Wayfinder (empty)

[Joe M.]

I've created an FAQ thread to see whether the Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge can use the Combined Spells ability. As written, she cannot.

So head on over and click that FAQ flag!

[Havoq]

Interesting build, Andrew. I don't see Fireball on your spell list, though.

[Jiggy]

Joe M. wrote:

I've created an FAQ thread to see whether the Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge can use the Combined Spells ability. As written, she cannot.

So head on over and click that FAQ flag!

In case anyone missed it, this got the FAQ treatment.

[Edenwaith]

Kyle Baird wrote:

Matthew Starch wrote:

also, in that particular case, an aasimar could easily be argued to be inherently divine, and thus not eligible to meet the 3rd level requirement for EK.

Exactly. Expect table variation. Expect to waste time at the table discussing your build instead of playing the game. Expect others to roll their eyes as you waste their time. Expect the GM to label you as a munchkin whether or not you actually are.

Fine, just hand me a cookie-cutter pregen and allow me to level it up and may we all be called Valeros the Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth.....

OR...print out all needed documentation ahead of time, pull the DM (Opps GM, this is Pathfinder) to the side and ask him (Opps, her, Paizo likes to use 'her/she' for all 3rd-person personal pronouns) if any explanation is needed. If 'she' still says "No", then pull out your backup (or pull out 51 backups, Dorkness Rising shoutout) and say, "It's no problem that you're not supporting Paizo's stance on this. I'll take it up with our local VC later and refer her to you concerning her stance in relation to Paizo's. Anyways, I haven't played my Gunslinger in awhile and could use some double-barreled rapid shooting stress relief about now".

Problem solved.

[Edenwaith]

Kyle Baird wrote:

Any time you push the boundaries of what seems reasonable to make your precious little snowflake, expect table variation.

I understand there is a whole segment of players who like to squeeze every last drop out of the rules, but there's (imo) a larger contingent of players and GM's who hate seeing this done and usually resent the players who bring it to their table.

Most players (again, in my ever so limited experience) want to spend their 5 hours having fun at the table, NOT watching someone waste precious time arguing with the GM or other players about whether or not their super-special-awesome-build-combo is legal or not via FAQ posts, Paizo posts or emails. It's almost like players want to come up with some combination that "surpises" the table. It's more likely they just want the attention gained from finding some rules combination out on the fringes of the game.

Even if you go to the length of printing out the FAQ or messageboard posts, I could completely see a GM not allowing a lot of these things. To which you might respond, "but it's all written right here, why can't you come to the same conclusions?" Not everyone is going to agree that this is legal, even after being presented with the information here. Again, expect table variation.

Deja vu, I just replied to a deja vu response of yours where you preached the same thing..again. Allow me to recipricate. "No problem GM ma'am, I got my double-barreled, rapid shooting, Musketeer I haven't played in awhile. You do know how a gunslinger works right? Great, let's get started!"

Now comes the fun part. Walk around acting all nonchalantly taking your time to position etc. Maybe taking one well aimed shot at some point when a mob's heavily damaged to get back the grit you just used to kill it so you could get back the grit you just deje vu, as the GM eyes you warily...she (GM) then starts relaxing comfortably into a euphoric (yet clueless) state until the BBEG makes its grand entrance when you BAM BAMBAM BAM BAM BAM BAM PEW PEW PEW........PEW.....wait for it..........wait for it.....PEW! You then turn to the rest of the party and say, "Ok, we can go home now".
When you show up next week, ask the GM, "Hey, mind if I play my Mystic?"

[John Compton]

The FAQ that addresses the use of spell-like abilities to qualify for prestige classes and other prerequisite-based character options has changed, and in doing so, it invalidates some characters' class combinations by preventing them from qualifying for a prestige class early. Mike and I have discussed the change and how it affects many of the characters built to take advantage of the opportunity.

A character who has a) relied on a spell-like ability to enter a prestige class in place of conventional spellcasting ability and b) earned at least one Chronicle sheet as a result of playing that character after taking a level in that prestige class gets to keep the character as is. We're not interested in performing a massive character rebuilding operation.

A character who does not fulfill the conditions above does not retain the ability to use a spell-like ability to qualify for a prestige class or other character option, in accordance with the recent FAQ. That character must qualify for those options as normal.

A character who has a non-class option for which he qualified using a spell-like ability in place of standard spellcasting ability must retrain those features and any features that rely on them as prerequisites (e.g. Arcane Strike and Bloodied Arcane Strike) at no cost.

[Gregory Connolly]

Well there goes my bloatmage, really glad there was notice, since I could have kept him with a weeks notice.

[Exguardi]

Excuse me while I burn half of my personal “Cool Character Compendium” and do a bit of retraining on 2-3 of my PFS characters...

On a serious note, it would be nice if a grace period was introduced in order to let anyone who was already planning an entire character around a concept this ruling obviates get their one or so games in they needed to be grandfathered. Is that a possibility, John? Because I'm sure a lot of people are on the cusp of entering one of those prestige classes and are very sad right now.

EDIT: Especially anyone who had just taken their first Mystic Theurge level but had not gotten to play a game yet. Now they're stuck at Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 or an even worse level distribution with no way of retraining that as far as I can tell.

[TwilightKnight]

John, might be a good idea (if its not already done) to add your comment/s to the sticky thread. It might take some time for this rules reversal to make its way through the community

[Helgraf Dragon]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Any time you push the boundaries of what seems reasonable to make your precious little snowflake, expect table variation.

I understand there is a whole segment of players who like to squeeze every last drop out of the rules, but there's (imo) a larger contingent of players and GM's who hate seeing this done and usually resent the players who bring it to their table.

Most players (again, in my ever so limited experience) want to spend their 5 hours having fun at the table, NOT watching someone waste precious time arguing with the GM or other players about whether or not their super-special-awesome-build-combo is legal or not via FAQ posts, Paizo posts or emails. It's almost like players want to come up with some combination that "surpises" the table. It's more likely they just want the attention gained from finding some rules combination out on the fringes of the game.

Even if you go to the length of printing out the FAQ or messageboard posts, I could completely see a GM not allowing a lot of these things. To which you might respond, "but it's all written right here, why can't you come to the same conclusions?" Not everyone is going to agree that this is legal, even after being presented with the information here. Again, expect table variation.

Deja vu, I just replied to a deja vu response of yours where you preached the same thing..again. Allow me to recipricate. "No problem GM ma'am, I got my double-barreled, rapid shooting, Musketeer I haven't played in awhile. You do know how a gunslinger works right? Great, let's get started!"

Now comes the fun part. Walk around acting all nonchalantly taking your time to position etc. Maybe taking one well aimed shot at some point when a mob's heavily damaged to get back the grit you just used to kill it so you could get back the grit you just deje vu, as the GM eyes you warily...she (GM) then starts relaxing comfortably into a euphoric (yet clueless) state until the BBEG makes its grand entrance when you BAM BAMBAM BAM BAM...

Long as the replacement character build is legal, sure. Did you meant to demonstrate that the answer to a GM disagreeing with you is to deliberately try and steamroll another event they run just to show off your character optimizing-penis?

[John Compton]

Exguardi wrote:

Excuse me while I burn half of my personal “Cool Character Compendium” and do a bit of retraining on 2-3 of my PFS characters...

On a serious note, it would be nice if a grace period was introduced in order to let anyone who was already planning an entire character around a concept this ruling obviates get their one or so games in they needed to be grandfathered. Is that a possibility, John? Because I'm sure a lot of people are on the cusp of entering one of those prestige classes and are very sad right now.

I can sympathize, for this solution doesn't do a whole lot for the 2nd- and 3rd-level PCs who were aiming to employ the spell-like ability backdoor.

On the other hand, in the past the campaign performed at least one experiment tied to grandfathering in an option with a grace period. While it allowed some good-intentioned people to get in on a character option, it also invited egregious and now infamous cases of abuse. Grandfathering without warning is fair to those who at least played using that option. Grandfathering with a future grace period date was an invitation for abuse under a strict time limit.

The trouble is that I don't see a way to provide accurate recompense—at least without opening up lots of room for abuse—for those who had the glimmer of bloatmage initiation in their eyes but never got around to signing up.

[WalterGM]

I think it's important to keep in mind that PFS is just following the Pathfinder rules on this. This new ruling is following a Pathfinder RPG FAQ. John linked it above, but here it is again.

I encourage everyone that is unhappy with this ruling to take a day and collect their thoughts, then post them in a constructive fashion, rather than having rage blinders on.

I will be doing the same.

[TwilightKnight]

Andrew Roberts wrote:

But my question is was it really ever a "loop hole" to begin with the FAQ was specifically made for the purpose of using SLAs to qualify for things?

Maybe it depends on your interpretation of "loophole" and whether or not it carries a negative, accusatory connotation or is just a term used to describe something that many think was a mis-representation of the rules and should have never existed in the first place.

[TriOmegaZero]

John Compton wrote:

The trouble is that I don't see a way to provide accurate recompense—at least without opening up lots of room for abuse—for those who had the glimmer of bloatmage initiation in their eyes but never got around to signing up.

Perhaps rather than tying the grandfathering to a future date, you tie it to the date of the announcement? So no brand new characters can be made, but current characters with 1XP can continue to build towards it?

The only abuse potential I see is credit babies being rebuilt to it, but it prevents a glut of characters being added last minute.

[sarah_supreme]

I just think it's incredibly unfair that some people have grandfathered characters that get to do things/be classes/be races that others can't. I shouldn't be penalized for when I started playing PFS. Either everyone should be able to do it or no one should.

[TwilightKnight]

sarah_supreme, there's a HUGE difference between someone who has played a character for countless dozens, perhaps hundreds of hours having to lose or retrain their entire character, and someone who has not played at all, but wants to do something that is now, not legal. Remember, no one is blocking you from playing those characters, its just that you won't have early access to the PrC anymore.

[Michael Brock]

John and I discussed grandfathering at length. As John has advised, this is the decision that the PFS team has made and is what we are going with.

[sarah_supreme]

Still not fair that my PFS charcter has to compete with shenanigans that she can't possibly pull.

[Hrothdane]

I am completely in support of this FAQ. It was cheesy and inconsistent with the other rules about SLA's.

[The Human Diversion]

sarah_supreme wrote:

I just think it's incredibly unfair that some people have grandfathered characters that get to do things/be classes/be races that others can't. I shouldn't be penalized for when I started playing PFS. Either everyone should be able to do it or no one should.

To play devil's advocate, it would be incredibly unfair to essentially invalidate someone's character that they have played more than a few times and represent more than a few hours of play and planning.

[Dagvaar Inkalde]

The Asmodean Disciplines wrote:

What the rules giveth, the rules taketh away.

As a mystic theurge of Asmodeus, I thank his infernal grace for the continued ability to distribute his teachings to the morally inferior.

[TOZ]

sarah_supreme wrote:

Still not fair that my PFS charcter has to compete with shenanigans that she can't possibly pull.

I don't find PFS to be a competition.

[KingOfAnything]

sarah_supreme wrote:

Still not fair that my PFS charcter has to compete with shenanigans that she can't possibly pull.

And I was under the impression that this was a cooperative game.

[mogmismo]

My CORE 1rst level cleric / 1rst level wizard is going to have to level up to Mystic Theurge the long way now. What's 2 extra levels of Wizard between friends, anyway?

All in all, I think this is a good decision.

[Gregory Connolly]

I also love how some people who play PFS, namely those who are venture officers, got warning that this was coming down. The argument that this is fair because nobody had notice coming from someone who admits to having notice is rich.

[TriOmegaZero]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I also love how some people who play PFS, namely those who are venture officers, got warning that this was coming down.

I heard nothing about this other than what Mark posted about in his AMA thread.

[WalterGM]

I had zero advance notice that this was occurring.

It was a Pathfinder RPG rules decision that John and Mike have decided to adhere to.

[Michael Brock]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I also love how some people who play PFS, namely those who are venture officers, got warning that this was coming down. The argument that this is fair because nobody had notice coming from someone who admits to having notice is rich.

We didn't warn VOs specifically so they wouldn't have to deal with this.

[melferburque]

John Compton wrote:

On the other hand, in the past the campaign performed at least one experiment tied to grandfathering in an option with a grace period. While it allowed some good-intentioned people to get in on a character option, it also invited egregious and now infamous cases of abuse. Grandfathering without warning is fair to those who at least played using that option. Grandfathering with a future grace period date was an invitation for abuse under a strict time limit.

you couldn't possibly mean the people that chose to run/play confirmation a dozen times to lock in aasimars and tieflings before they went away, could you?

[Sebastian Hirsch]

sarah_supreme wrote:

I just think it's incredibly unfair that some people have grandfathered characters that get to do things/be classes/be races that others can't. I shouldn't be penalized for when I started playing PFS. Either everyone should be able to do it or no one should.

I can sympathize, considering the vast amounts of race boons I own (0) and am likely to get (slightly higher than 0,00000) the chances of me being able to play an aasimar are remote.

That said, this issue was always a bit "weird" and forced certain races to be seemingly only real choice, when it comes to some classes. That seems like unintentionally bad game design.

[Kolby Sample]

I fully suppot this revision and think it was needed to put an end to some cheeseburger options. I know of a few people that abbused the grace period from the race allowed change with a stockpile of 1 chronicle native outsiders that can't shortcut anymore.

Good job

[Sarcasm Elemental]

melferburque wrote:

you couldn't possibly mean the people that chose to run/play confirmation a dozen times to lock in aasimars and tieflings before they went away, could you?

Oh certainly not!

[TwilightKnight]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I also love how some people who play PFS, namely those who are venture officers, got warning that this was coming down. The argument that this is fair because nobody had notice coming from someone who admits to having notice is rich.

Considering that VO are largely in their position because they are trusted not take unfair advantage of said knowledge (ala inside trading) this is a non-issue. Somewhere, someone has to be able to discuss upcoming rules changes and the impact on the community. Even Mike and John play/GM this game. Should they not be given advance notice of material and/or changes because of it?

[Exguardi]

John Compton wrote:

Grandfathering with a future grace period date was an invitation for abuse under a strict time limit.

John, thanks for engaging with me about this idea. I'd like to posit that this potential grace period would not invite nearly so much abuse, as the Aasimar/Tiefling grandfathering required playing only a single game before the end date. That's very easy to do, even for people that don't play very often.

On the other hand, trying to grandfather in a Mystic Theurge would take a lot of scenarios or at least several modules since you would need to get to level 4.1 in order to qualify for the grandfathering, in the most efficient Mystic Theurge path.

As far as other classes that could be grandfathered, these classes are much, much weaker than the early-entry Mystic Theurge. Early-entry Eldritch Knights are cool, but are already mechanically overshadowed by Paizo's own Magus class; and it still takes until level 3.1 to pull that off.

The only thing i can think of off of the top of my head that you can get into at level 2 and has any kind of "power" element to it is the Bloatmage. While cool, I've never seen anyone complain about a Blcatmage, or even notice if they were early-entried or not to be frank.

Does that make sense, John? I'm hoping to create a compelling argument here that could counteract the potential intense sadness of a decent amount of players. I don't even have any stake in this as I have no such characters in the works.

EDIT: I'd really hope to not get this discussion drowned out, incidentally, so if anyone posting non-constructively could... um... wait a bit on that until we've hashed this out, I'd appreciate it. It's for everyone's benefit I think!