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| 36 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!
I submit for your consideration an FAQ continuing The Great Theurge-Palooza of Summer 2013.
Can a Mystic Theurge with two spontaneous spellcasting classes use the Combined Spells ability to cast with one class spells known by her other class?
For example, could a Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge ("SOMT") who knew bless as an Oracle cast the spell as a Sorcerer via Combined Spells? – As written, she cannot. So this FAQ is one of those "do the rules mean what they say?" questions. Click that FAQ flag to find out!
Here is the text of Combined Spells:
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 1st level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 9th level (these spells would take up 6th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.
So as written, the SOMT cannot use combined spells. Now, when this question has come up in the threads discussing Theurges, I've seen two replies: (1) the rules mean what they say, the SOMT can't use Combined Spells; (2) because the Oracle class did not exist when the Theurge was published, we should be flexible and allow the SOMT to use Combined Spells. Those both seem to me like reasonable enough answers, so it seems to me worth an FAQ. Especially since there's divergence on the question and it's central to a build I expect we'll be seeing some of now that we have the spell-like ability FAQs.
But just in case one or the other of these options seems so obviously correct to you as to make the question not worth an FAQ, let me suggest some additional reasons why you might wish to click the FAQ flag anyway.
(1) If #1 seems obviously correct to you, don't hesitate to click the FAQ flag. Because you know folks are starting to experiment with Theurges and you know folks will be trying out SOMTs. I've seen several state their intentions to try a SOMT in PFS play, for which a ruling would be especially helpful. Also, if the Design Team wants to stick with option #1 it will be minimal effort on their part to answer this FAQ–they won't even have to type out a response, all they'll have to do is mark this post "no reply required." So click that FAQ flag!
(2) If #2 seems obviously correct to you, don't hesitate to click the FAQ flag. Because that's not what the rules say, and because #2 looks a lot less obviously correct when you see how JJ addressed this question (with admirable caution) last night:
So I was considering trying a Sorcerer/Oracle Mystic Theurge out... and realized that the combined spells ability is worded in a way that seems to hate a dual spontaneous caster. I was wondering if that ability, since written before there were any spontaneous divine casters (Oracle and Inquisitor), ever got errata or if that combination just does not get to use that ability at all.As far as I know it's not been given errata, but not every class is designed to be the perfect choice for every combination.
So it's by no means guaranteed that Combined Spells will be expanded to allow the SOMT to use it. So click that FAQ flag to find out!
My guess is that since when the core rulebook came out there were no divine spontaneous casters (only Sorcs and Bards) that it was an oversight. It was trying to limit the ability but it seems like it limited it too much with the oracle added later.
Either way I want it changed as it removes a combination for getting into the class. FAQ'd
I think they meant to specify prepared casters. Even though there were no spontaneous divine spellcasters in Pathfinder at the time the Core Rulebook was published, they did exist in D&D 3.5, so the developers were certainly aware of the concept. Maybe they actually were trying to discourage the combination of two spontaneous caster classes by mystic theurges? After all, combining two spontaneous caster classes is the only way to get a mystic theurge with a single casting stat (charisma).
BTW, no need to bump this, 27 flags places it fairly high in the list of FAQ hotspots.
After all, combining two spontaneous caster classes is the only way to get a mystic theurge with a single casting stat (charisma).Empyreal Sorcerer / Cleric works, too.
And don't forget Paladin / Sorcerer or Bard... :-)
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qx6
Mystic Theurge: How does the second paragraph affect dual-spontaneous casters, such as an oracle/sorcerer/mystic theurge?
The text in question is:
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast.
The intent of this text is actually a limitation on the prepared-caster class, not the spontaneous-caster class; the limitation is not what spells the spontaneous-caster class can use with the combined spells ability, it is what spells the prepared-caster class can provide for the combined spells ability.
For example, if a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge didn't prepare any lesser restoration spells today, he can't use sorcerer spell slots to cast lesser restoration (because he can only use this ability to access cleric spells he prepared that day). However, nothing in the ability description prevents him from using his (must-be-prepared) cleric spell slots to prepare (spontaneous) sorcerer spells he knows.
Likewise, an oracle/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use sorcerer spell slots to cast oracle spells, or oracle spell slots to cast sorcerer spells, so long as the level increases and level limits described in the combine spells ability are implemented. Neither class is affected by the "only spells they have prepared" rule because that rule only applies to mystic theurges who have levels in a non-spontaneous casting class.
A clearer version of the above quoted rule would be:
If one of the theurge's spellcasting classes is a non-spontaneous spellcaster (such as a cleric) and the other is a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer), he can only spontaneously cast spells from the non-spontaneous class that he actually prepared that day (whether or not he has cast those prepared spells).
Yes, thanks for the clarification!
Awesome!