The Cayden Cailean Problem

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

The Test of the Starstone is actually a reality television show put on by the gods for their own amusement with a panel of gods as the judges. It's kept mysterious so the mortals will stay impressed. The mortals who win are mostly chosen for their entertainment value.

[Jeff Erwin]

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

The Test of the Starstone is actually a reality television show put on by the gods for their own amusement with a panel of gods as the judges. It's kept mysterious so the mortals will stay impressed. The mortals who win are mostly chosen for their entertainment value.

The runner ups generally being the better builds, the higher level characters, and the really ambitious. We end up with the crowd pleasers instead. I guess Norgorber had a wicked sense of humour.

[KingmanHighborn]

Yeah like the guy that points out how Final Destination movies are comedies.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

KingmanHighborn wrote:

Yeah like the guy that points out how Final Destination movies are comedies.

They're not comedies?

[CalebTGordan]

Cayden is more than just the god of alcohol, as many have pointed out here already.

He is a god of choosing your own fate, of not being owned by anyone else, of being your own person, or being content with yourself.

He is the god of people who fight for worthy causes, of the lone sword wielding and good hearted scoundrels, and the adventurously curious explorers who go and do just because they can.

He is the guy at the bar who everyone loves not because of some fake image he has built but because he deserves it. He really would start a fight with that guy who is harassing the pretty server girl. He truly would buy a drink for those who are down on their luck, celebrating something special, or just because your new and he likes you. And he knows your name and makes you feel special even of you only met him once. He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it, fight by your side if no one else would, and is there just at the time you need him most in your life.

He may not be lawful or have a restrictive morality system. He may not behave himself the best, or make the smartest decisions. He certainly doesn't have a problem with picking fights and chasing tail. But he is altruistic, joyful, and trustworthy.

As for the alcohol, I look at it like someone posted above. He isn't the god of alcohol poisoning, of dangerous alcoholism, or of alcohol abuse. He knows when he has had enough, and cautions his followers to know their limits as well. After all, alcohol can loosen you up and help the celebrations move in fun directions, but it can also push you to be so far off your game that you can't function. How can you fight for the freedom of others if you are held bound by alcohol's grasp? Or how can you expect to fight when you are so drunk you can't hold a blade to save your life, literally? No, alcohol is more of a symbol. It frees you of your inhibition, just like how he expects his followers to free others from shackles.

Remember that stories that become legends are often exaggerated. It is possible that he wasn't nearly as sloshed as the legends say he was. In reality, he may have drank just to his limit, just enough to free him of any doubt or worry he had about the test. When he came from the test a god, he was surprised at the fact that he succeeded and not the hung over confused god that people make him out to be. Only he knows, and I see him as the type of person who lets the legends grow as they are told.

[John Templeton]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Kerney wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

He kinda reminds me of Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean, but he probably drinks less than Jack, and is farther along the good alignment.

I actually thought of him as Captain Malcolm Reynolds promoted to godhood (and yes, Thais is Inara, and he argues with her the same way), with more of his humorous aspects played up rather then his brooding part.

Aside to Jayne in 'Our Mrs Reynolds': "How drunk did I get last night?"

"Took the Test of the Starstone, became a god."

[Fitzwalrus]

CalebTGordan wrote:

Cayden is more than just the god of alcohol, as many have pointed out here already...(snip)

This. Positively, unreservedly, this. Exceptionally well put.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Undone wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

One thing a lot of people seem to forget, at least in my opinion, is that Cayden Cailean may be a god of alcohol and drunkenness, but that doesn't mean he swaggers and slurs like Captain Jack Sparrow, constantly hammered out of his mind. He and his followers enjoy alcohol, but DO practice moderation. Drinking with friends is fun. Drinking and starting a friendly brawl is fun. Drinking until you puke or black out and could possibly die of alcohol poisoning is NOT fun.

You're right! We only drink until at least half the wenches at the bar look pretty enough to consort with. Some locations take longer than others.

I like to think of cayden as the Irish leprechaun god. He'll fight ya, drink ya under the table, then fight ya under the table, then drink ya into the bedroom.

So...the Dagda? I always pictured him more as a Lugh-type, the kind of guy who can make anything look easy.

[Makamu]

CalebTGordan wrote:

Lots of awesome explanations

I freely admit that I hadn't really thought in detail about Cayden before this threat, but Caleb's explanation has just become my head!canon for my Golarion. Well played, sir!

[DarthPinkHippo]

I wanna play a halfling inquisitor of Cayden now. I feel like Cayden freed his fair share of halfling slaves in his lifetime.

[Corvus Cailean]

My PFS inquisitor of Cayden Cailean runs a bar that, oddly, imports a lot of chelaxian wine. (with halflings in the barrels)

*spits wine out* This stuff tastes like feet!

"Oh hell, I missed one..."

[Sissyl]

"Oh, man, that is not going to go down well among the big guys upstairs..."
"That's putting it mildly. And guess who they will take it out on?"
"Yeah, I know..."
"So is there anything we can do?"
"Well, we had no idea that guy could out-breath the gorgon, or carry fifteen open beer bottles while somersaulting down the stairs without spilling, or eat forty kebab pizzas in one go, or burp hard enough to ring the bell from sixty feet..."
"So... We are just going to have to add a test to follow a straight line, right?"

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I like Cayden Caillean, one day I hope to play an Inquisitor of Cayden in a game. Travelling from tavern to tavern as a wine taster. Because an inquisitor would care about the quality of the booze.

[rknop]

"SOMEBODY HERE IS NOT HAVING A GOOD TIME! YOU ARE ALL DAMNED!"

[Trinite]

I like Cayden in theory. Caleb T. Gordan does a great job of indicating how he ought to be written. But I think sometimes his canonical depictions veer a little over the line into not-so-Good territory.

Or maybe that's more his followers; but hey, I guess you can't blame him for their excesses. And he is definitely the kind of god that has obvious popular appeal to less reflective sorts.

[Marius Castille]

John Templeton wrote:

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Kerney wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

He kinda reminds me of Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean, but he probably drinks less than Jack, and is farther along the good alignment.

I actually thought of him as Captain Malcolm Reynolds promoted to godhood (and yes, Thais is Inara, and he argues with her the same way), with more of his humorous aspects played up rather then his brooding part.

Aside to Jayne in 'Our Mrs Reynolds': "How drunk did I get last night?"

"Took the Test of the Starstone, became a god."

His priests also wear simple brown tunics or robes. OMG, his priests are BROWNCOATS!

[BarrenSpirit]

Matthew Morris wrote:

He has some kind of destiny to fufill. The Starstone Itself determines who ascends, and has a purpose for Cayden.

That theory made further thoughts spring, for me: what if the Starstone is still controlled by those who first summoned it - the Aboleth?

What if they are the ones deciding who ascends, following a scheme of unparalleled spectrum?
What if they chose Cayden because he was a dumb, albeit strong, easy to control one when the time will come for them to subjugate him completely? And Aroden because he was maybe partly broken after his kind was wiped out, and Iomedae because her zeal made her blind, and Norgorber because he was secretly their servant since the beginning?
What if they killed Aroden when he was becoming powerful enough to uncover their control and plot and break free? (By the way, why didn't Aroden crush the Aboleth after achieving Godhood? Maybe because they were in control?)
What if the Eye of Abendego is a colossal ward above and around the site of power from which the Aboleth exert their quiet and secret control, erected when Aroden showed them that those who ascended via Starstone can become a menace?
What if their plot intended, among a countless number of other possibilities, to install unsuspected and unsuspecting spies among the Gods?

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

BarrenSpirit wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

He has some kind of destiny to fufill. The Starstone Itself determines who ascends, and has a purpose for Cayden.

That theory made further thoughts spring, for me: what if the Starstone is still controlled by those who first summoned it - the Aboleth?

What if they are the ones deciding who ascends, following a scheme of unparalleled spectrum?
What if they chose Cayden because he was a dumb, albeit strong, easy to control one when the time will come for them to subjugate him completely? And Aroden because he was maybe partly broken after his kind was wiped out, and Iomedae because her zeal made her blind, and Norgorber because he was secretly their servant since the beginning?
What if they killed Aroden when he was becoming powerful enough to uncover their control and plot and break free? (By the way, why didn't Aroden crush the Aboleth after achieving Godhood? Maybe because they were in control?)
What if the Eye of Abendego is a colossal ward above and around the site of power from which the Aboleth exert their quiet and secret control, erected when Aroden showed them that those who ascended via Starstone can become a menace?
What if their plot intended, among a countless number of other possibilities, to install unsuspected and unsuspecting spies among the Gods?

Absolutely not, because aboleths loathe deities far too much to even consider allowing one of their own to ascend to godhood, never mind one of their pawn races.

[Cpt_kirstov]

BarrenSpirit wrote:

That theory made further thoughts spring, for me: what if the Starstone is still controlled by those who first summoned it - the Aboleth?

Nope,here's why

[Cthulhudrew]

I believe it's been stated (by James Jacobs?) that the aboleth didn't intentionally bring the Starstone to Golarion; it was just along for the ride.

[Alleran]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

I believe it's been stated (by James Jacobs?) that the aboleth didn't intentionally bring the Starstone to Golarion; it was just along for the ride.

That's correct. Apparently, the aboleth were much more interested in what Earthfall was doing to Azlant, and failed to notice the Starstone's impact until afterward. Which probably led to a round of "oops" among their number.

[Athansor]

Cayden is a fantastic addition to Golarion. He's a prime example of "being too serious" not always being necessary and breaks the gods-awful habit of some story tellers to make the pantheons a horrible trope and mockery of themselves. The more "human" gods are the more interesting they are as a plot device.

Example:

Sarenrae descends, "You have been selected for a quest of great importance in the battle between good and evil! We must bring the light to blah blah blah"

Is way less interesting (to me!) than:

On your entrance, Cayden quickly finishes the contents of his mug, stopping briefly to get lost in the taste of whatever fermented delicacy he'd prepared. He turns to you, "I suppose we should get to the business at hand, but first let me tell you how this all got started. There I was with 3 mugs in hand, one for me, one for me, one for Shelyn, and one for Calistria - I know, this was a bad idea going in, but we'll get to that..." etc.

Also on that note, I don't really enjoy gods actively taking part in campaigns (unless you're playing at an extremely high level), the examples were just for context. The focus should be on the players, and the story they create and gods are more of an abstract in the background to me.

[Trinite]

BarrenSpirit wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

He has some kind of destiny to fufill. The Starstone Itself determines who ascends, and has a purpose for Cayden.

That theory made further thoughts spring, for me: what if the Starstone is still controlled by those who first summoned it - the Aboleth?

What if they are the ones deciding who ascends, following a scheme of unparalleled spectrum?
What if they chose Cayden because he was a dumb, albeit strong, easy to control one when the time will come for them to subjugate him completely? And Aroden because he was maybe partly broken after his kind was wiped out, and Iomedae because her zeal made her blind, and Norgorber because he was secretly their servant since the beginning?
What if they killed Aroden when he was becoming powerful enough to uncover their control and plot and break free? (By the way, why didn't Aroden crush the Aboleth after achieving Godhood? Maybe because they were in control?)
What if the Eye of Abendego is a colossal ward above and around the site of power from which the Aboleth exert their quiet and secret control, erected when Aroden showed them that those who ascended via Starstone can become a menace?
What if their plot intended, among a countless number of other possibilities, to install unsuspected and unsuspecting spies among the Gods?

This would make an excellent addition to the Conspiracy Theories of Golarion thread. :)

[barry lyndon]

I'm with Athansor. I've been reading up on all the gods for my first GM campaign experience. I love the variety. I love that Norgober is so unknowable And Cayden? Well he could be anything. it could be that the balance of the gods must always be maintained with certain alignments to ensure that one aspect doesn't overwhelm its opposite. Maybe Cayden was just the first guy through the door when there was an imbalance. The gods span the whole range of immortal-natural-forces to recently-ascended-gods. There's so much potential to do what you desire with it.

If my guys got through Rise of the Runelords I was going to throw a Deck of many things at them but now I'm going to offer them the Starstone test.

[Jeven]

Cayden really needs a better back-story. Like some of the things he accomplished while he was a mortal that made him extraordinary instead of just drunk mercenary #136797 who just happened to pass the Test of the Starstone.

Apotheosis isn't uncommon in European mythology, but the mortals to gods usually have an impressive list of fantastic deeds on their belt to back it up, like Heracles.

At the very least Cayden should have had some mortal arch-nemesis who he beat.

[barry lyndon]

For me he's like Zaphod Beeblebrox from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Spoiler:

Zaphod survived the Total Perspective Vortex, which destroyed the brain of anyone entering it by showing them exactly how insignificant they were.

But later you find out he survived it due to it being a fake version designed to make him believe he really was the centre of the universe.

The Total Perspective Vortex is allegedly the most horrible torture device to which a sentient being can be subjected.
When you are put into the Vortex you are given just one momentary glimpse of the entire unimaginable infinity of creation, and somewhere in it there's a tiny little speck, a microscopic dot on a microscopic dot, which says, "You are here."

So in my world Cayden ascended because whatever it is that confers divinity needed him to for the sake of balance. Thus he became a god, and his pure essences became his god traits, while his human failings disappeared. That is why he can't remember how he passed the test.

[The Crusader]

Sometimes you take on challenges you shouldn't.

Sometimes you roll 20's.

Sometimes the DM rolls 1's.

I don't have a problem with Cayden. I actually liked him better before I knew he was pretty badass as a mortal. The dice are capricious. But, sometimes you slip up and become a god.

(It helps if you're drunk...)

[Duiker]

My personal theory is that the Starstone test is looked at in precisely the wrong way by most people (both in the real world and in Golarion). The difference between a god and a 20th level mortal is still infinitely more than the difference between a 20th level mortal and a 1st level commoner. Thinking of the test that grants godhood on a mortal as some monumental test of physical or mental prowess is not necessarily true depending on the mortal who enters. Because who cares if you barely can lift your sword or if you can sunder adamantine when gods can create worlds out of thought. I think that the right 1st level commoner could walk in and become a god.

And as such here's what I think happened With Cayden Cailean. I think he stumbled in dead drunk, blithely sat down an won a drinking contest with some incomprehensible entity, was offered godhood and said "screw that, I'm out" and then knocked himself out trying to get the hell out of there. I think he ascended to godhood exactly because he turned down godhood. To paraphrase the famous quote, the only chaotic good person qualified to hold such power is the one who doesn't want it in the first place.

[barry lyndon]

Duiker wrote:

My personal theory is that the Starstone test is looked at in precisely the wrong way by most people (both in the real world and in Golarion). The difference between a god and a 20th level mortal is still infinitely more than the difference between a 20th level mortal and a 1st level commoner. Thinking of the test that grants godhood on a mortal as some monumental test of physical or mental prowess is not necessarily true depending on the mortal who enters. Because who cares if you barely can lift your sword or if you can sunder adamantine when gods can create worlds out of thought. I think that the right 1st level commoner could walk in and become a god.

And as such here's what I think happened With Cayden Cailean. I think he stumbled in dead drunk, blithely sat down an won a drinking contest with some incomprehensible entity, was offered godhood and said "screw that, I'm out" and then knocked himself out trying to get the hell out of there. I think he ascended to godhood exactly because he turned down godhood. To paraphrase the famous quote, the only chaotic good person qualified to hold such power is the one who doesn't want it in the first place.

I like that one too:)

[HyperMissingno]

I imagine that a lot of the starstone test involves courage over actual might or something along the lines, and Cayden doesn't know the meaning of fear!

No seriously hand the man a dictionary, he doesn't know the meaning of fear.

[Kthulhu]

Tholomyes wrote:

The problem worsens when you realize that Cayden is on the same level of divinity as the other 19 major gods. What does that say about Sarenrae when she's no more powerful or worthy than the hedonist who drunkenly wandered into a cathedral, thinking it was a bathroom?

The "big 20" are the most popular/widely worshipped gods in the Inner Sea Region, not necessarily the most powerful gods.

[Readerbreeder]

Duiker wrote:

...here's what I think happened With Cayden Cailean. I think he stumbled in dead drunk, blithely sat down an won a drinking contest with some incomprehensible entity, was offered godhood and said "screw that, I'm out" and then knocked himself out trying to get the hell out of there. I think he ascended to godhood exactly because he turned down godhood. To paraphrase the famous quote, the only chaotic good person qualified to hold such power is the one who doesn't want it in the first place.

Or, to paraphrase another famous quote, Cayden didn't want to belong to any pantheon that would have him as a member.

[CorvusMask]

Two year old thread revived and nobody notices <_< Ah well, this is interesting conversation subject anyway, so nice that it continues.

I'd like to see how release of Inner Sea Gods changes the conversation if it does at all.

Also, little bit annoyed to see that this is one of those threads where OP posts negative opinion about something and then never comes back to reply <_< Thats just boring to read when there is no debate..

[Mark Thomas 66]

Cayden's Holy Song should be "Turn Down for What?"