Making an active choice not to use your class abilities (...)
That's exactly what you do when you choose an armless form for a class that relies in spellcasting.
That's exactly what you do when you choose an armless form for a class that relies in spellcasting.
Making an active choice not to use your class abilities (...)
Even IF we accepted that as a viable argument, which we don't, what's about that?
To me, it's also the same amount of stupid that you can, somehow, use your own hands inside the "suit" to do whatever you want (as you are allowed to use all your equipment, and you have to do that somehow), even to take your spell components out of their pouch (as I don't think the eidolon's hand would reach inside it's own body and into your pockets...), but not to make the gestures required to finish casting.
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.
Especially the second part.
(Or is there anything in the rules saying something else?)
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.
Good point.
That indeed doesn't make sense. I agree.
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.
You're comparing the standard summoner's merge forms ability, gained at 16th level and only usable for 1 round/level, to the synthesist's fused eidolon ability, gained at 1st level and active all the time. Maybe they shouldn't work the exactly same or have the same power level?
Question: If a synthesist with an armless eidolon can cast somatic spells without needing a feat like Natural Spell or Still Spell, can he cast them if his armless eidolon is grappled or otherwise unable to make gestures? If the synthesist's eidolon is gone, is the synthesist still able to cast somatic spells the way he does with his eidolon present? Even if he's grappled?
Question: If a synthesist with an armless eidolon can cast somatic spells without needing a feat like Natural Spell or Still Spell, can he cast them if his armless eidolon is grappled or otherwise unable to make gestures? If the synthesist's eidolon is gone, is the synthesist still able to cast somatic spells the way he does with his eidolon present? Even if he's grappled?
Yes. He just needs to make a Concentration check, as per the Grappled condition.
A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
That's exactly what you do when you choose an armless form for a class that relies in spellcasting.
Making an active choice not to use your class abilities (...)
Is the Synthesist's point to be a multi-armed Eidolon encompasses you like a suit of armor? You know, like a Gun Mage's point is to "Shoot spells, with a gun." I am pretty sure there is a different archetype for what you think the Synthesist should be.
You know what? Never mind. Cutting off the rest of my post where I make it PERFECTLY clear what I meant is purposefully obfuscating my argument in an contempuous manner.
I say good day to you.
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.You're comparing the standard summoner's merge forms ability, gained at 16th level and only usable for 1 round/level, to the synthesist's fused eidolon ability, gained at 1st level and active all the time. Maybe they shouldn't work the exactly same or have the same power level?
Maybe you could try even a modicum of rules coherence?
How can anyone by expected to play a game where the rules for thing A are so completely and utterly different when approached from perspectives X, Y, and Z that they might as well not even be related.
I´m pretty sure that Sean was referencing Pinned, not Grappled, which would be in line with his reference to ´unable to make gestures´.
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Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
My point still stands.
How can anyone by expected to play a game where the rules for thing A are so completely and utterly different when approached from perspectives X, Y, and Z that they might as well not even be related.
That´s kind of how this game works. 2WF requires high DEX... unless you can bypass that requirement. You can´t gain full creature traits via Polymorph... except via abilities which explicitly do so. Etc...
How can anyone by expected to play a game where the rules for thing A are so completely and utterly different when approached from perspectives X, Y, and Z that they might as well not even be related.That´s kind of how this game works. 2WF requires high DEX... unless you can bypass that requirement. You can´t gain full creature traits via Polymorph... except via abilities which explicitly do so. Etc...
Two-weapon fighting feat has a pre-requisite. Which can be bypassed. Or something can give you an ability like two-weapon fighting. Two-weapon fighting is the constant rule.
This whole thing where spellcasting differs between a Synthesist and a normal Summoner Eidolon fusion is like if there was two-weapon fighting, but for Rangers if they take the feat and have a light-weapon off-hand, they can get it down to -2/-2, but if you are an Urban Ranger, you can only get it down to -4/-4, except if you have two daggers, then it goes away entirely, but if you are a Gnome Fighter, you could wield two non-light weapons and get -2/-2 because you are small and all Gnome weapons are at least light coming from a Medium perspective, except when you are hasted.
You see? It's nonsense. A Synthesist Eidolon can't cast unless the Eidolon has arms because somehow he is completely entrapped in the Eidolon or something. But a Summoner fused with his Eidolon can still cast spells because it says he can. And even a Druid with Natural Spell can cast as a slug. Sure, they have to take Wild Shape, but it alleviates ANY of their forms from having to have appendages to cast spells at all.
I mean, what?
At the very least, it needs to say you can't cast spells when using Merged Forms if your Eidolon doesn't have the hands evolution. At least that is fair and makes sense.
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My point still stands.
It just so happens that you can´t just depend on the Grappled/Pinned Conditions to know how to deal with Casting under them.
The Concentration section also says:
Pinned also contains the following restriction which Grapple doesn´t re-iterate:
So based on the whole body of rules, BOTH Grappled and Pinned can´t use Somatic spells PERIOD.
I´m not sure if that is the RAI (and the fact that Pinned re-iterates that restriction while Grappled doesn´t is superfluous),
or the RAI is that Somatic spells ARE possible while Grappled but not Pinned (if you pass a Concentration check),
although the RAW is that the Magic chapter has it´s own restriction against Somatic-while-Grappled, which still applies even if the Condition doesn´t mention it.The concentration check is effectively only for non-somatic, non-material component spells.
Either way, Pinned is explicitly re-iterating the no Somatic / material components* rule,
which is relevant to what Sean was talking about (Somatic spells). In other words.
* and in that case, goes beyond the restriction in the Magic Chapter, which allows ´in hand´ material components while Pinned bans them outright... another wierd ´discrepancy´, although logically all restrictions, from whatever source/section, apply unless expressly bypassed... Still, pretty confusing, since the Magic section DIRECTLY mentions the Pinned Condition AS WELL AS the Grappled Condition when it says ´in hand´ components are the only ones allowed... (even though that is over-ruled by the Pinned Condition)
Can I get I get a witness/FAQ/errata?!?!?!?
BTW, I take this opportunity to point out the real issues with the Grappling rules, un-answered for eternities...
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At the very least, it needs to say you can't cast spells when using Merged Forms if your Eidolon doesn't have the hands evolution. At least that is fair and makes sense.
It doesn´t need to. The rules work fine as-is, even if they drive your sensibilities nuts.
At the very least, it needs to say you can't cast spells when using Merged Forms if your Eidolon doesn't have the hands evolution. At least that is fair and makes sense.It doesn´t need to. The rules work fine as-is, even if they drive your sensibilities nuts.
At no point do inconsistent rules "work fine as is."
For you. Others are playing with the Archetype just fine without a Blackhole forming from rules contradictions.
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Yes. He just needs to make a Concentration check, as per the Grappled condition.A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
If he can cast somatic spells when he doesn't have arms at all, why would he need to make a concentration check when grappled or pinned? It's not like the attacker is holding his nonexistent arms to prevent him from casting.
If he can cast somatic spells when he doesn't have arms at all, why would he need to make a concentration check when grappled or pinned? It's not like the attacker is holding his nonexistent arms to prevent him from casting.
Because he's like a Dark Naga, which knows spells with somatic components yet has no arms?
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If he can cast somatic spells when he doesn't have arms at all, why would he need to make a concentration check when grappled or pinned? It's not like the attacker is holding his nonexistent arms to prevent him from casting.
Yes. He just needs to make a Concentration check, as per the Grappled condition.A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
yes, he still needs to make a concentration check. because anyone who is being grabbed and soundly thrashed, needs to make a concentration check to cast spells. SO WHAT if his arms aren't specifically pinned. that's what the game mechanic is there to simulate: casting /concentrating under duress. Inside his little eidolon suit, he's being bounced around and being shaken up. and maybe, just maybe, his arms are being squeezed a bit too within the suit, and he can't concentrate enough to get the spell off.
For you. Others are playing with the Archetype just fine without a Blackhole forming from rules contradictions.
Carrying out a detailed examination of a tree does not make the forest it is in cease to exist.
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In my haste, I muddled two things together. Let me start over.
A synthesist has an armless eidolon. You're proposing a rule that says when he's fused with his armless eidolon, he should still be able to cast spells with somatic components, even though his fused form doesn't have arms.
Question: If that synthesist, when fused, was grappled or pinned, should he be able to cast somatic spells? He's already got a rule that's letting him cast somatic spells without arms, and it's not like the grappler is interfering with the non-gestures he's making.
Question: If that synthesist is able to cast somatic spells when fused with his armless eidolon, even when grappling or pinned, should he be able to do so when he's not fused with his armless eidolon? In other words, if he's not moving his arms to cast spells when fused, why should he have to move his arms to cast when not fused?
Because he's like a Dark Naga, which knows spells with somatic components yet has no arms?
So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
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This thread has become my afternoon cup of coffee.
So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
Why does the druid even have to take Natural Spell? They are casters who attune themselves to nature for their spells and wildshaping.
What if he needed to make a Concentration like he was Grappled? Would that be okay?
I'd like to hear your answers to my first two questions.
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lets make a druid archtype that gives up its animal companion class feature, then, yeah maybe we can give him natural spell as a class feature for free.
So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
No, no, no. He has to lose his animal companion/nature bond while Wild Shaped and he only gets 3/4 casting.
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already gave my opinion. the rules for grappling are for casting during duress. even if you're a small creature inside a medium or large eidolon suit, enough constriction and shaking can occur to justify the need for a concentration check to cast while grappling.
If its the stance that, you, like the naga, are so accustomed to controlling the snake's form, that you can make your somatic component gestures with sleight undulations in your body, flicks of your tail, or tongue, then it also likewise follows that being grappled would interfere with those minute gestures. and the game mechanic for grappling and somatic components would apply.
Whether you're still making the gestures, within your eidolon suit, or are so accustomed to your second skin that you're comfortable making somatic gestures in both your humanoid and serpentine form, then yes you still need to make the gestures outside of your eidolon suit.
I don't see why it wouldn't follow normal rules for casting while grappled/pinned.
You're comparing the standard summoner's merge forms ability, gained at 16th level and only usable for 1 round/level, to the synthesist's fused eidolon ability, gained at 1st level and active all the time. Maybe they shouldn't work the exactly same or have the same power level?
Question: If a synthesist with an armless eidolon can cast somatic spells without needing a feat like Natural Spell or Still Spell, can he cast them if his armless eidolon is grappled or otherwise unable to make gestures? If the synthesist's eidolon is gone, is the synthesist still able to cast somatic spells the way he does with his eidolon present? Even if he's grappled?
I guess the point he was making was that thematically it doesn't make much sense.
I do agree with you though, that mechanically you really can't compare those and pretend it's a fair comparison.
You know what? Never mind. Cutting off the rest of my post where I make it PERFECTLY clear what I meant is purposefully obfuscating my argument in an contempuous manner.
I say good day to you.
Thank you, sir
(I find it amusing, how easily you get upset with someone actively not trying to be rude to you, while you bathe us all in your condescending attitude. The reason I didn't quote the rest of your post is simple: it is irrelevant.)
maybe because they've already house ruled it and moved on. while some of us still see gaping flaws in the system for Synthesists.
No house rules so far (and no black holes either).
So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
If I could understand the other posters correctly, some of them would be happy with a "natural spell" feat for the summoner. Not necessarily asking for a free ability.
Most of the people posting here seem to be unwilling to use the still spell feat (which in my opinion already solves all the issues of casting with an armless eidolon).
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Hi
Sorry if this has already been answered in the 626 posts preceding this one...
The maximum of natural attacks is listed in the Eidolon entry, but what about iterative attacks with manufactured weapons?
Eg. 7th lvl Synthesist, 4 extra arms, Improved TWF, wielding Wakizashis.
Does it get 6 attacks (one per hand), or 12? (BAB +6).
Thanks
Paul H
already gave my opinion. the rules for grappling are for casting during duress. even if you're a small creature inside a medium or large eidolon suit, enough constriction and shaking can occur to justify the need for a concentration check to cast while grappling.
If its the stance that, you, like the naga, are so accustomed to controlling the snake's form, that you can make your somatic component gestures with sleight undulations in your body, flicks of your tail, or tongue, then it also likewise follows that being grappled would interfere with those minute gestures. and the game mechanic for grappling and somatic components would apply.
So you're not so much saying
"he can cast somatic spells without requiring hands because he's not making gestures at all"as
"he's using different bodily gestures for those components but is otherwise still making somatic gestures and normal rules for somatic spellcasting still apply"
Yes?
And by the way....
Why does the druid even have to take Natural Spell? They are casters who attune themselves to nature for their spells and wildshaping.
Do you really think this discussion is the place to change something in the Core Rulebook that was part of the open playtest three years ago?
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Hi
Sorry if this has already been answered in the 626 posts preceding this one...
The maximum of natural attacks is listed in the Eidolon entry, but what about iterative attacks with manufactured weapons?
Eg. 7th lvl Synthesist, 4 extra arms, Improved TWF, wielding Wakizashis.
Does it get 6 attacks (one per hand), or 12? (BAB +6).
Thanks
Paul H
eidolon's limited by the eidolon entry per the faq, so even though it has enough hands/weapons to go around, it would be limited to 4 attacks per round.
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.You're comparing the standard summoner's merge forms ability, gained at 16th level and only usable for 1 round/level, to the synthesist's fused eidolon ability, gained at 1st level and active all the time. Maybe they shouldn't work the exactly same or have the same power level?Maybe you could try even a modicum of rules coherence?
How can anyone by expected to play a game where the rules for thing A are so completely and utterly different when approached from perspectives X, Y, and Z that they might as well not even be related.
This. A thousand times this.
To come back to the original question, my reasoning still stands. Additionally, he gives up other things to cope for that ability. But if you still think that it would be imbalanced, please, introduce a Natural Spell variant feat for synthesists, as has been proposed in this very thread a dozen times.
In my haste, I muddled two things together. Let me start over.
A synthesist has an armless eidolon. You're proposing a rule that says when he's fused with his armless eidolon, he should still be able to cast spells with somatic components, even though his fused form doesn't have arms.
Yes. Either for free, or by creating a natural spell feat variant (and possibly giving a synthesist that feat as a bonus, to balance some other aspects).
Question: If that synthesist, when fused, was grappled or pinned, should he be able to cast somatic spells? He's already got a rule that's letting him cast somatic spells without arms, and it's not like the grappler is interfering with the non-gestures he's making.
I also think that yes, he should be able to cast, albeit with a nice concentration check.
But, since you are the one how should be able to tell us how the rules work, let me ask you a counter-question: what's the current ruling on a druid (with natural spell feat) wild shaped into a snake form that get's grappled? It's not like the grappler would (or could) interfere with any hands, right? So what's your ruling for that? The one for the synthesist should follow that, I suppose.Question: If that synthesist is able to cast somatic spells when fused with his armless eidolon, even when grappling or pinned, should he be able to do so when he's not fused with his armless eidolon? In other words, if he's not moving his arms to cast spells when fused, why should he have to move his arms to cast when not fused?
No, of course not.
A druid with the natural spell feat can't cast all his spells as if still and silent for free, either.The way I see it is that he does in fact move his own arms inside of the eidolon "suit" (as I already said, he has to be able to do so somehow, as he is able to use all his equipment while fused, and to reach into his pockets to take out the spell components.) - and that doesn't change anything about his actions when he's not fused. In fact, following your logic, one could come to the conclusion that a synthesist would have to be able to use all his equipment and to take out spell components without moving his arms.
Because he's like a Dark Naga, which knows spells with somatic components yet has no arms?So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
Yes.
A wildshaping druid can still use summon nature's ally and almost all his other class abilities, while a synthesist doesn't. Besides, as has already been said, if you feel that would be imbalanced, at least give us a feat along the lines of natural spell.Additionally, it just doesn't make sense to say that a naga can cast spells with somatic components without problems, and a druid can learn to cast in wild shape without problems by cost of a single feat, while there's no possibility for a synthesist to be able to do so (apart from metamagic, which brings it's own problems).
Actually, this isn't in the FAQ. I just checked. The only limit is on natural attacks, still; weapon attacks are unlimited. That means you can make your own Hekatonkheires or Marilith.eidolon's limited by the eidolon entry per the faq, so even though it has enough hands/weapons to go around, it would be limited to 4 attacks per round.
Yes, it's an additional nerf the Synthesist has that the Summoner doesn't.
Still Spell is not a viable solution. It means level 1-4 synthesists cannot cast spells while fused at all (discounting cantrips because no one is going to spend level 1 spell slots on cantrips), level 4-6 synthesists can only cast 1st level spells, etc, PLUS it makes EVERY SPELL a full-round cast time because summoners are spontaneous casters. Also note that you would need both Still Spell and Eschew Materials, and Eschew Materials still won't let you cast spells with expensive material components.
And yeah, the druid comparison is a farce. Druids get the same BAB, the same HD, better saves, better non-companion class features, full casting instead of 2/3 casting, a much larger (and arguably better) spell list, a slightly weaker companion (and thus twice as many actions as the synthesist), and still get a feat that lets them cast in forms even though they spend less time in non-humanoid forms than synthesists do (level 5 druid: 5 hours/day; level 1 synthesist: 16+ hours/day).
I am aware of that, but to me that is simply a consequence of the summoner taking poor mechanical decisions while building his eidolon, so I'm fine with it.
Again, I am in no way against a natural spell kind of feat that allows the synthesist to cast while fused with his eidolon. I just don't think he should receive that ability for free.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sean,
For what it's worth, my position is similar to Cyberwolf2xs'. If a gnome synthesist in a quadruped eidolon can reach into his pack, pull out a wand, and fire it, he should be able to make whatever somatic gestures are necessary to cast spells. Especially if the eidolon is Medium or Large.
I suppose I'm not seeing the eidolon as a hard shell, like Armor of the X-Men, but rather as an overlaying spirit that does much of the heavy lifting. I've never envisioned that the outline of the eidolon is a hard wall; that summoner can't reach outside.
Yes, it's an additional nerf the Synthesist has that the Summoner doesn't.
It's also one the druid doesn't have.
A druid wild shaping into a dire tiger, for example, can pounce with 5 attacks.
Yes, it's an additional nerf the Synthesist has that the Summoner doesn't.It's also one the druid doesn't have.
A druid wild shaping into a dire tiger, for example, can pounce with 5 attacks.
But your unlikely to be making manufactured weapon attacks, which was my point here. The Summoner Eidolon doesn't have a limited number of manufactured weapon attacks, the Synthesist does. The Synthesist just has straight bad damage output potential compared to a Summoner.
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gotcha. didn't realize the max attacks for eidolons only limited natural attacks, not weapon attacks.
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
not sure how to treat the 6 armed guy with ginsus, unless 3 of his 6 arms are off hand arms. if he's got a +6 bab, then 6 attacks at +4, and 6 attacks at -1 i guess? nasty.
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The Multiweapon Fighting feat exists for a reason. It lets you attack with all of your weapons at your full BAB with a -2 or -4 penalty to each attack. It also "counts as" Two-Weapon Fighting, but it's unclear how it interacts with Improved and Greater TWF; under the most liberal interpretation, every hand gets the effect of those feats, and even under the most restrictive, you still get an extra attack per feat with a single hand.
ahh, so 6 wakazashi @ +4, 1 @ -1
nah i don't get it, Multiweapon Fighting says -2 with the primary hand, -6 with the additional hands. TWF in combat section says it would be -2 with the off hand being light. so that would be -2/-4. and replace TWF for the feat tree.
that's like 1 @ +4, 5 @ +2, and 1 @ -1, before maybe working with ITWF as 5 more attacks at -3 ?
just feels weird.
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multiweapon fighting: -2/-6. twf in combat section: additional -2 on the off hand when the off hand weapon is light.
so main hand -2, all 5 off hands -4. then iterative -7, off hand iteratives, -9.
but yeah, bestiary feats aren't pfs legal. though there's some debate about it. lets not go into it here, as there's nothing in summoner that would confer you the ability to chose those feats.
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So you're not so much saying
"he can cast somatic spells without requiring hands because he's not making gestures at all"
as
"he's using different bodily gestures for those components but is otherwise still making somatic gestures and normal rules for somatic spellcasting still apply"
Yes?
one of two flavors for rules options i see. either he's in his little shell and can move his hands, draw wands and the like, or he's comatose while inside the shell, devoting all control to moving his suit-exoskeleton. and if he does this day in/day out, no reason it woudln't become second nature to him.
then again thats just what the Natural Spell feat emulates for druids: spending enough time in the form and adapting your magic so the flick of a wing, the quirk of a paw, satisfy your somatic spellcasting requirements.
but it is in line with the intent in the Synthesist description that they have access to all of their abilities and gear.
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Hi
Actually I wasn't using feats from the Bestiary, just checking if TWF can be used with multiple pairs of arms.
I believe I can use Multiattack - it's a class ability at 9th lvl.
I was hoping that I could use the TWF tree to get the extra attacks before then.
As it happens my current (lvl 2) Synthesist is going for the 2H weapon/Pwr Attack combo. As far as I can see it'll be just 3 attacks (about lvls 6-7) with Nodachi's. Pwr Attacking with Arcane Strike.
Thanks
Paul H
Edit: From 'additional resources:
"Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source."
Eg. Class ability