One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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Seraphimpunk wrote:

if you're not in organized play / pathfinder society, then yes Multiweapon Fighting is legal for creatures with three or more arms.

the problem is that at lvl 6 he has only 2 arms.

BinkyBo wrote:
But he seems to have a few too many arms

sure thing. 321 is an exaggeration.


Fabio P. wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:

if you're not in organized play / pathfinder society, then yes Multiweapon Fighting is legal for creatures with three or more arms.

the problem is that at lvl 6 he has only 2 arms.

BinkyBo wrote:
But he seems to have a few too many arms
sure thing. 321 is an exaggeration.

If he only has two arms why are you asking? He doesn't meet the preqs of having more than arms.

A Synthesist has 2 arms while non-fused but will have more than 2 arms all day so he qualifies.


Regarding MWF...

Well, the normal ruling is that you can choose any feat for which you fulfill the requirement at the moment you get the feat (in most cases, that's equivalent to "at the moment you level up"). You even qualify if you fulfill the reqs only by means of magic items.
(Don't reiterate that debate, it has been made clear in other threads.)
His fused form has three or more arms, and he is in that form most of the day.

Therefore: yes, he can absolutely take the feat.
(It obviously becomes deactivated as long as his Eidolon is dismissed.)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Fabio P. wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:

if you're not in organized play / pathfinder society, then yes Multiweapon Fighting is legal for creatures with three or more arms.

the problem is that at lvl 6 he has only 2 arms.

BinkyBo wrote:
But he seems to have a few too many arms
sure thing. 321 is an exaggeration.

which is it? either the summoner (synthesist) is level 6, with 2 arms and can't take the feat because he doesn't meet prerequisites, or he's got 321 arms ( some number more than 2), and the feat is legal.

if your eidolon has more than 3 arms, and its not for PFS play, its a legal feat. the pre requisite of the feat are "Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands."

if you're talking about for a regular summoner, with 2 arms, and a separate eidolon with a lot of arms, then no, your PC summoner does not qualify for multiweapon fighting. and if the eidolon in question is attacking with natural attacks its limited by the Attack column in the eidolon chart, and will gain multiattack anyway at higher level. MulitWeapon Fighting is only useful for attacks with manufactured weapons.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyberwolf2xs wrote:

Regarding MWF...

Well, the normal ruling is that you can choose any feat for which you fulfill the requirement at the moment you get the feat (in most cases, that's equivalent to "at the moment you level up"). You even qualify if you fulfill the reqs only by means of magic items.
(Don't reiterate that debate, it has been made clear in other threads.)
His fused form has three or more arms, and he is in that form most of the day.

Therefore: yes, he can absolutely take the feat.
(It obviously becomes deactivated as long as his Eidolon is dismissed.)

::nods::

if he meets the prerequisites in fused form he can take and use the feat. its in the FAQ somewhere, with power attack via the eidolon's strength being over 13, while his own strength might not be high enough. he'd qualify just as a fighter with 11 str wearing a belt of str +2 would. he just wouldn't be able to use the feat unless he's in a form where his strength is high enough to qualify for the feat.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."

sounds easy enough to clarify, let me give it a shot.

Fusion Pool(EX): When the synthesist fuses with his eidolon, he gains a fusion pool equal the Eidolon's hit points. Treat points in this pool as temporary hit points in that they are lost before actual HP loss occurs. If the eidolon is banished, points in the fusion pool equals zero. If the fusion pool has zero points remaining, the eidolon returns to its native plane and fusion ends.

Its less complicated if you make it its own class feature and a pool, and not call them hit points at all. I would reword the sythesist's Life Link ability to give the summoner the option of sacrificing his own hit points to prevent the fusion pool from emptying, and include that cure spells can be used either as normal or to restore points to the fusion pool.

Contributor

Archomedes wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."

sounds easy enough to clarify, let me give it a shot.

Fusion Pool(EX): When the synthesist fuses with his eidolon, he gains a fusion pool equal the Eidolon's hit points. Treat points in this pool as temporary hit points in that they are lost before actual HP loss occurs. If the eidolon is banished, points in the fusion pool equals zero. If the fusion pool has zero points remaining, the eidolon returns to its native plane and fusion ends.

Its less complicated if you make it its own class feature and a pool, and not call them hit points at all. I would reword the sythesist's Life Link ability to give the summoner the option of sacrificing his own hit points to prevent the fusion pool from emptying, and include that cure spells can be used either as normal or to restore points to the fusion pool.

So how do you restore points to the "fusion pool"?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Archomedes wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."

sounds easy enough to clarify, let me give it a shot.

Fusion Pool(EX): When the synthesist fuses with his eidolon, he gains a fusion pool equal the Eidolon's hit points. Treat points in this pool as temporary hit points in that they are lost before actual HP loss occurs. If the eidolon is banished, points in the fusion pool equals zero. If the fusion pool has zero points remaining, the eidolon returns to its native plane and fusion ends.

Its less complicated if you make it its own class feature and a pool, and not call them hit points at all. I would reword the sythesist's Life Link ability to give the summoner the option of sacrificing his own hit points to prevent the fusion pool from emptying, and include that cure spells can be used either as normal or to restore points to the fusion pool.

So how do you restore points to the "fusion pool"?

Points cannot be restored, the pool can be refreshed though.

If the synthesist wants the pool to stay at 1 he can sacrifice his own hit points via his Fused Link class feature. His own hit points can later be restored. Dismissing the Eidolon and re-fusing with it sets the pool equal to the Eidolon's current hit points.

The eidolon does not lose hit points when points from the pool are lost, so the eidolon never really has to be healed.

Thats how it appears to work as written.

I would allow cure spells to target the sythesist or restore points to the pool, but that isn't how the archetype works as written.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Why don't you just leave them as normal HP?
Just replace "The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane." in the Fused Eidolon abilty by the following:
"Since the eidolon is surrounding the synthesist, somewhat like a suit of armor, any damage the synthesist gets while fused is subtracted from the eidolon's HP instead of his own. When the eidolon's HP reach 0, it is sent back to its home plane, as normal. Any damage in excess is reduced from the synthesist's own HP."

Plain. Simple. Elegant.

To make the ruling of healing even more clear, add: "Any HP gained through any form of healing are added to the synthesist's own HP first. When these reach maximum, any healing in excess is added to the eidolon's HP."

How'bout that?
(Hope my wording is as clear as it sounds to me, not being a native speaker and all. ;))


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So, at 9th level, an eidolon get's multiattack as a bonus feat. But, does a synthesist's eidolon get it too? I hadn't thought about it till going over the class again but, synthesist eidolon don't get feats so, does this mean no multiattack at 9th too?

Contributor

Archomedes wrote:
If the synthesist wants the pool to stay at 1 he can sacrifice his own hit points via his Fused Link class feature. His own hit points can later be restored. Dismissing the Eidolon and re-fusing with it sets the pool equal to the Eidolon's current hit points.

Because the eidolon never takes damage, this means the synthesist resets these points up to maximum just by "rebooting" the eidolon. And because he can dismiss the eidolon as a standard and resummon it 1 minute later, as many times per day as he wants to, that means the synthesist can completely reset his bonus hit points in between every fight, with no resource cost (spells, wand charges, whatever), just time.

My fighter wishes he could do that.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

ok, here's something i don't know how to describe/handle, but i'll try.
q/ from another thread.

dwarf synth with a 16 con. has 12 hp on his own.
when fused he's got 10hp + 6 temp hp from his eidolon.

when the eidolon is killed, he doesn't stay at 10 hp b/c the eidolon is gone.

Does he suddenly gain 2 hp?

one extreme:
say that dwarf had taken 9 hp of damage before his synth was dismissed/killed for the day. the dwarf is at 1 hp just before the fuse ends. does he remain at 1 hp after the fuse ends? or does he gain 2 hp as the fuse ends?

the other extreme:
say the dwarf didn't take any damage. while fused he's got 10 hp. if he dismisses the eidolon, does he gain 2hp and go up to 12 hp? or did fusing with the eidolon "hurt" him for 2hp of damage??

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
So, at 9th level, an eidolon get's multiattack as a bonus feat. But, does a synthesist's eidolon get it too? I hadn't thought about it till going over the class again but, synthesist eidolon don't get feats so, does this mean no multiattack at 9th too?

the synthesist probably gains it as a "bonus feat" , just as he gains devotion, applied to himself. if the synthesist uses a lot of natural attacks, Multiattack can come in handy.


you should seriously think about editing the first post of that Thread into a more complete/concrete FAQ with all the answers you get in this thread.


Cyberwolf2xs wrote:

Why don't you just leave them as normal HP?

Just replace "The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane." in the Fused Eidolon abilty by the following:
"Since the eidolon is surrounding the synthesist, somewhat like a suit of armor, any damage the synthesist gets while fused is subtracted from the eidolon's HP instead of his own. When the eidolon's HP reach 0, it is sent back to its home plane, as normal. Any damage in excess is reduced from the synthesist's own HP."

Plain. Simple. Elegant.

To make the ruling of healing even more clear, add: "Any HP gained through any form of healing are added to the synthesist's own HP first. When these reach maximum, any healing in excess is added to the eidolon's HP."

How'bout that?
(Hope my wording is as clear as it sounds to me, not being a native speaker and all. ;))

This seems simpler and clearer. Can anyone spot any holes/reasons not to use this version of the Sythesist HP rules?


Caedwyr wrote:


This seems simpler and clearer. Can anyone spot any holes/reasons not to use this version of the Sythesist HP rules?

Nope, I see it that way too.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
So, at 9th level, an eidolon get's multiattack as a bonus feat. But, does a synthesist's eidolon get it too? I hadn't thought about it till going over the class again but, synthesist eidolon don't get feats so, does this mean no multiattack at 9th too?
the synthesist probably gains it as a "bonus feat" , just as he gains devotion, applied to himself. if the synthesist uses a lot of natural attacks, Multiattack can come in handy.

But, devotion is an extraordinary ability, not a bonus feat. Nothing in synthesist says no extraordinary abilities, but it does say no feats.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yeah
since

Quote:


The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions.

but under the special ability multiattack:

Quote:


Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.

since it grants the eidolon a bonus feat, and you as the fused synthesist don't get access to any of the eidolon's feats, you get nothing if you have 3 or more natural attacks.

However if you have only 2 natural attacks, it doesn't give your eidolon the multiattack feat. it allows your eidolon/you to take a second attack with one of its natural weapons at a -5.

in one case it grants the feat, but RAW you don't get it.
in the other, it grants an ability, which RAW you get.

It could be worded better. i think RAI, the synthesist should gain multiattack as a bonus feat

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

has it already been discussed, what feats/skills an eidolon has at 16th level when it gets Twin Form ? or does the summoner get to chose those on the fly when it splits? since up until 16th level he hasn't had to designate any feats or skills for the eidolon he's been living in.

( wow, eidolons must harbor a lot of resentment to synthesists. they spend 2/3 of the synthesist's life stuck with a summoner in its belly, unable to think or act on their own. such abuse. such slavery ).


Seraphimpunk wrote:

ok, here's something i don't know how to describe/handle, but i'll try.

q/ from another thread.

dwarf synth with a 16 con. has 12 hp on his own.
when fused he's got 10hp + 6 temp hp from his eidolon.

Which form of Eidolon? You are missing the Con of the creature. That is why your hps are 12 when unfused and 10 when fused.

Quote:


when the eidolon is killed, he doesn't stay at 10 hp b/c the eidolon is gone.

No, your con reverts to 16 and you gain 2 hps.

Quote:


Does he suddenly gain 2 hp?

Yes, basically a reverse of Barb rage.

Quote:


one extreme:
say that dwarf had taken 9 hp of damage before his synth was dismissed/killed for the day. the dwarf is at 1 hp just before the fuse ends. does he remain at 1 hp after the fuse ends? or does he gain 2 hp as the fuse ends?

You have fused hp total of 10 hp, you have taken 9 real damage.

Unfused you gain 2, so you have 3. Again, reverse Barb rage.
Quote:


the other extreme:
say the dwarf didn't take any damage. while fused he's got 10 hp. if he dismisses the eidolon, does he gain 2hp and go up to 12 hp? or did fusing with the eidolon "hurt" him for 2hp of damage??

You are asking the wrong question.

Please, reinterate your query.


Now I'm wondering how nonlethal damage applies.

For simplicity, let's say we have a synthesist with 40 hit points and an eidolon with 60 hit points.

The fused synthesist has 100 hit points and takes 100 points of nonlethal damage. Since this is equal to his current total, he passes out.

The eidolon vanishes, leaving him on 40 hit points total with 100 points of nonlethal damage. Is the excess nonlethal converted into lethal, thereby killing him?


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Now I'm wondering how nonlethal damage applies.

For simplicity, let's say we have a synthesist with 40 hit points and an eidolon with 60 hit points.

The fused synthesist has 100 hit points and takes 100 points of nonlethal damage. Since this is equal to his current total, he passes out.

The eidolon vanishes, leaving him on 40 hit points total with 100 points of nonlethal damage. Is the excess nonlethal converted into lethal, thereby killing him?

Temp hp ignore Nonlethal?

I thought Nonlethal only doesn't deal damage to normal hp.


Starbuck_II wrote:

Temp hp ignore Nonlethal?

I thought Nonlethal only doesn't deal damage to normal hp.

Nonlethal is tracked as a separate total. This total remains the same even if your hit points change. The clause for converting nonlethal to nonlethal only seems to trigger upon receiving nonlethal damage, but not on already having nonlethal damage and your hit points total changing.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:


You are asking the wrong question.
Please, reinterate your query.

Sorry. 13 Con eidolon.

dwarf w/ 16 con. and favored class hp in summoner at 1st level.
8 + 3 + 1 = 12.

fused
8 + 1 + 1 = 10.
+ 5 + 1 temp.

Its not clear. because barbarian rage hp specifically say they're not temp hp, and when you come out of rage, and your con goes down, you could be at 1hp and suddenly lose N hp * your HD and die.

the last part of my question was asking if the hp worked like the other end of the spectrum. if your pc hasn't taken any damage (full hp. in the case of the dwarf 12 hp. ) and you summon your eidolon as a synthesist. your hp become 10 in this case. you lose 2 hp. I was asking if you then dismissed the eidolon, whether your hp would remain 10 hp leaving you effectively injured because you fused, or if you would gain back 2 hp.

the confusion could be eliminated by fixing the summoner's hp as his un-fused hp. And then synthesists would haven't to track four separate things: current hp damage taken, un-fused hp total, fused hp total, and temp hp total.

otherwise summoners with a 10 con, and say 8hp at 1st level with 6 temp hp, and 9hp when fused. who gain hp like a barbarian when they fuse, run the risk of rage-related-death like a barbarian. if they're hit with one good hit, and drop to -9 hp, the eidolon would dismiss, they'd lose con, and be dropped to -10hp.

if it was just your regular hp all the time. then you'd have 8hp, 6 temp. but if you're dropped to -9, you're just dropped to -9, the bottom doesn't suddenly drop out on you. At least they added the Raging vitality feat for barbarians, to let them continue to rage while unconscious. Synthesists don't have that "luxury".

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

put it this way. dwarf with 16 con, and 12 hp at 1st level.
your character has taken 4 points of damage. and his ally casts bear's endurance on him to give him an enhancement bonus to his Con score. The # of hp of damage he's taken doesn't change. his max hp total changes.

if he was at 8hp out of 12. he would be at 10 hp, out of 14 now. because his 16 con went up to 20.

a synthesist fluctuates a lot. I guess that answers my own question about a fully healed synthesist. going from 12 to 10 to 12 again. they haven't taken any hp damage. their maximum hp has just increased.

said dwarf who was dropped , while fused, to 1 hp, has taken 15 hp of damage. 6 come off his temp hp. 9 come off his real hp. when he drops out of fuse state, he's still taken 9 hp of real damage. and his hp total is 12.

please please please just lock in a synthesist's hp at his normal un-fused hit points! its so much less confusing. some people track how many hp they've taken as damage, counting up, some people track what their hp total is, counting down. both work. with the synthesist, you have to count up.

( and then there's still the question of subdual damage and how it interacts with the temporary hit points. )


Could you select the energy attacks evolution, giving your attacks say, fire damage. Then, use an amulet of mighty fists w/ flaming for an additional 1d6. So, you'd do normal damage, +2d6? If not, would the energy attacks evolution allow you to use an amulet of mighty fists w/ the flaming burst ability?

And this has probably been answered for regular magic weapons but, could I give the eidolon fire energy attacks, then use the amulet of mighty fists to give him COLD damage at the same time?

Edit: Sorry, had fire instead of cold above originally.


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well... That problem is a really good catch.

The main question is: how are temporary HP supposed to interact with nonlethal damage?

The way I see it, it goes either like this:
"If anyone gets temp HP by any source, he isn't knocked unconscious when nonlethal damage excesses his normal HP any more, but when nonlethal damage excesses his normal HP + temp HP."
Or like that:
"Temp HP do not distinguish non-lethal from lethal damage / Non-lethal damage is counted as lethal damage with regards to temp HP. Therefore, if a character with temp HP sustains nonlethal damage, the temp HP are reduced by that amount. If the temp HP are reduced to zero, any damage in excess is handled according to the normal non-lethal damage rules."

---

If my first version is correct, we run into the problems you (Umbral and Seraphim) mentioned.

How are we supposed to apply the following paragraph of the rules for temporary hit points to nonlethal damage?

Quote:
If the effect that grants the temporary hit points ends or is dispelled, any remaining temporary hit points go away. The damage they sustained is not transferred to the character's current hit points.

If nonlethal damage is an entirely own pool and remains the same, unaffected by changes of temp HP, when the effect granting the temp HP ends and the HP drop back to normal, the nonlethal damage can suddenly be much higher than the HP. You're knocked unconscious, but what's supposed to happen with the excess?

Is the excess nonlethal damage instantly transferred into lethal damage, which could kill a character, as Umbral showed?
Is that transfer delayed until you sustain 1 additional point of nonlethal damage, and then possibly still kills you?

Additionally, it leads to a different wierd instance with the synthesist: the eidolon itself can never be knocked unconscious - well, depending on how you read its description and incapability of own actions, it might be all the time, but that's not the point.

You have to deal nonlethal damage equal to (synth's HP in fused form)+(temp HP given by eidolon)+1 to make the synth unconscious, then the eidolon is sent back automatically. You then have a synth with (temp HP given by eidolon)+1 excess nonlethal damage in his stack, while the eidolon itself has zero points of nonlethal damage.

Maybe it's more behaving like two different, linked pools?
If you sustain (synth's HP in fused form)+(temp HP given by eidolon)+1 nonlethal damage, you're knocked unconscious and the eidolon is sent back automatically. You then remain with the minimum nonlethal damage needed (equal to your HP +1) and the rest gets transferred to your eidolon?
(The logic behind that could be: your nonlethal pool is filled, the temp nonlethal pool (and thus the one of the eidolon) is filled, any excess is lethal damage which has to be applied to your eidolon first.)

Following that, it would leave you with an unconscious synthesist and a staggered/unconscious/injured eidolon, depending on how much excess damage there was.
Does it make a difference for a synthesist, wether the eidolon is unconscious or not?

If you have the Resilient Eidolon feat, it stays with you for some rounds... Whatever that gives you. Supposedly you still get to benefit from it's AC increases and so on, but you're unconscious and prone to being CdG'd anyway.

---

But my second version brings along its own problems. If it is correct, we're looking at just another major discrepancy between a normal summoner and a synthesist. Which?

Let's see...
The summoner rules say:

Quote:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.

The eidolon (and any other summoned creature) is not sent back by merely being unconscious, right?

So if you want to send back a normal eidolon by means of nonlethal damage, you have to deal twice its total HP plus Con score (or deal nonlethal damage equal to its total HP+1 to make it unconscious, then make a Coup de Grace as long as its helpless).

Now, since a synth's eidolon's HP are all temp, and temp HP are reduced by nonlethal in the same way they'd be by lethal damage, if you want to send back a synth's eidolon by means of nonlethal damage, you'd only have to deal damage equal to the eidolon's HP. Temp HP are gone, eidolon is gone.

---

So maybe it's entirely different than what I could imagine... Hopefully someone will come by and enlighten us.

Regarding your plead, Seraphimpunk, even if it doesn't have to do very much with the temp/nonlethal problem, I just wanted to say that I'd like to chime in on that.

Please, rules-authors, lock the synth's own HP at his normal, unfused hit points.
It would really simplify things a lot and make the synth's Con somewhat less of a dump stat.

And please, let the Eidolon's HP be normal HP that get reduced first (as I proposed).

Maybe add a paragraph along the lines of "If the eidolon is dismissed, damage to his HP (nonlethal and/or lethal) is not transferred to the synthesist's HP." to make it even easier to understand - but I think, as it already says that damage to the eidolon remains even after resummoning (as long as it's not slain), it wouldn't possibly be needed.

---

Now that we're at it anyway, let me repeat another question someone else brought up:

What's happening if an elven (or half-elven) synthesist in fused form gets struck by a sleep spell?

Just to show one imminent problem that could result from ruling that the sleep spell would work, and to spread insanity, let me ask what happens next.
The spell works, so the synthesist is put to sleep and the eidolon vanishes. Since the synthesist no longer counts as an outsider, does he wake up again because his natural immunity kicks in?
In which case he is better off without the Resilient Eidolon feat then with (debatably, but it's awake w/o eidolon vs sleeping and helpless w/ eidolon)?

More seriously, the rules do say that "the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse".
Is "type" the same as "race"?
There's only the humanoid type, but there are subtypes named matching the races (but subtypes don't grant racial traits).
So, are your racial traits still active?
Does a gnome in fused form lose its dodge bonus vs giants?
What counts as "an effect related to type" and what doesn't?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

How does a human synthesist determine which feat and which skill ranks to lose, when his eidolon is summoned? Is it the most recent feat and skill ranks? Or can the character choose which of the benefits for being human he is to lose?


Chris Mortika wrote:
How does a human synthesist determine which feat and which skill ranks to lose, when his eidolon is summoned? Is it the most recent feat and skill ranks? Or can the character choose which of the benefits for being human he is to lose?

You don't lose your traits when you fuse. Why would you think so?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

For the same reason an elf might lose immunity to sleep spells, a gnome might lose her AC bonus against giants, or an other fused synthesist might be considered an advantaged type / subtype / race only if both the summoner and the eidolon had that advantage.


It's a non-issue. The summoner is both his own type and outsider (whichever is worse), for an effect related to type.

Traits are not effects.

Being a half-elf gives you the trait of being immune to sleep, being human gives you the trait of an extra Feat, etc.

Adding the Outsider type doesn't remove those traits, but if there is an effect that explicitly works better against outsiders or humanoids, then you take the worse effect.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

That's a good clarification, Ramarren.


While I do see it in the same way, I can't seem to find anything in the rules that actually directly supports it.

But since I can't find anything directly against it, either, and it is by far the more reasonable ruling (not that this instance would have any actual significance, as the whole synth archetype discussion showed), let's stick to what Ramarren said.

Please note that you don't actually "add" the outsider type, though.
You just count as if you had it added for certain "effects".


Wow what a long thread that I only read a part of...sorry. I'm searching for a few answers and sifting through all that might make my tiny brain explode!

Anyways, I'm trying to build a Synthesist and would appreciate some help. I'm thinking that since you can use all of your own abilities it applies to feats, weapon pro's etc. So if I use a great axe or whatever I use it at the Summoner's listed level BAB which surprise surprise matches the Eidolon's. So if I was 12th level it would be +9/+4(plus str). This is assuming I took a feat to be proficient in a great axe. Agree?

As for people's thoughts on armour I'm of the camp that the armour's bonus is suppressed but certain powers of the armour can still work.

ie: resistance to say fire no as it's on the inside of you, the one armour that casts breath of life on you...yes, flight...hmm that might be some uncomfortable flying? Wait this is harder than I thought. :(

Healing on the other hand I know people seem to think that the Eidolon can't be healed by anything but the rejuvenate eidolon spells. Where does it say this? It says it doesn't heal naturally. I take this to mean that if it doesn't get outside healing it doesn't heal. So a cure light wounds, a positive energy channel or a rejuvenate eidolon would all heal the eidolon.

Does rejuvenate eidolon heal the summoner as well?(So more than just the temp hp.) Obviously not when they aren't joined. However, when they are joined they are one being so one could rule that it does. I'd probably error on the side that it doesn't just so I don't feel like a jerk but that seems to make little sense to me. The same with the restoration spells.

I'm also only counting the con bonus for the joined form once as you are one being.

Lastly, it would have been much cooler if the Eidolon wasn't translucent. ;)

Dark Archive

Lemartes wrote:
Lastly, it would have been much cooler if the Eidolon wasn't translucent. ;)

THIS.


Lemartes wrote:


Healing on the other hand I know people seem to think that the Eidolon can't be healed by anything but the rejuvenate eidolon spells. Where does it say this? It says it doesn't heal naturally. I take this to mean that if it doesn't get outside healing it doesn't heal. So a cure light wounds, a positive energy channel or a rejuvenate eidolon would all heal the eidolon.

Read the FAQ then cry.

We all did.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Lemartes wrote:


Healing on the other hand I know people seem to think that the Eidolon can't be healed by anything but the rejuvenate eidolon spells. Where does it say this? It says it doesn't heal naturally. I take this to mean that if it doesn't get outside healing it doesn't heal. So a cure light wounds, a positive energy channel or a rejuvenate eidolon would all heal the eidolon.

Read the FAQ then cry.

We all did.

Boooo. :(

Thanks for mentioning the FAQ I don't frequent the boards much and didn't know about it. Yeah it's pretty clear about how healing works. Odd decision.

Now after reading about the attacks in the FAQ I'm unsure if I am right about attacking with just a weapon. :(


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Pardon my ignorance if this was discussed already, can a synthesist pick up items while fused, even without the arms evolution (assuming the sythesist itself has hands).


Lemartes wrote:

Thanks for mentioning the FAQ I don't frequent the boards much and didn't know about it. Yeah it's pretty clear about how healing works. Odd decision.

Now after reading about the attacks in the FAQ I'm unsure if I am right about attacking with just a weapon. :(

This is exactly what I'm talking about with regards to illogical rulings creating doubt about how the class actually functions, Sean. When you abandon logic, you force readers to completely abandon the basic framework the rules are written under, which calls literally everything into question.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Pardon my ignorance if this was discussed already, can a synthesist pick up items while fused, even without the arms evolution (assuming the sythesist itself has hands).

It was ruled he can't cast without hands, so I would say no.


Lemartes wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
Lemartes wrote:


Healing on the other hand I know people seem to think that the Eidolon can't be healed by anything but the rejuvenate eidolon spells. Where does it say this? It says it doesn't heal naturally. I take this to mean that if it doesn't get outside healing it doesn't heal. So a cure light wounds, a positive energy channel or a rejuvenate eidolon would all heal the eidolon.

Read the FAQ then cry.

We all did.

Boooo. :(

Thanks for mentioning the FAQ I don't frequent the boards much and didn't know about it. Yeah it's pretty clear about how healing works. Odd decision.

Now after reading about the attacks in the FAQ I'm unsure if I am right about attacking with just a weapon. :(

Nothing I've read in the FAQ makes me think you can't attack with a weapon, and get multiple attacks per standard BAB progression. If you have enough limbs to do so, you should be able to get your natural attacks AND weapon attacks, though the weapon attacks would become secondary automatically. Unless there's some other monster ruling out there I don't know about.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Fozbek wrote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about with regards to illogical rulings creating doubt about how the class actually functions, Sean. When you abandon logic, you force readers to completely abandon the basic framework the rules are written under, which calls literally everything into question.
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Pardon my ignorance if this was discussed already, can a synthesist pick up items while fused, even without the arms evolution (assuming the sythesist itself has hands).

Case in point.


Ravingdork wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about with regards to illogical rulings creating doubt about how the class actually functions, Sean. When you abandon logic, you force readers to completely abandon the basic framework the rules are written under, which calls literally everything into question.
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Pardon my ignorance if this was discussed already, can a synthesist pick up items while fused, even without the arms evolution (assuming the sythesist itself has hands).
Case in point.

Yeah, it is a little confusing, as you can apparently attack with a sword you would have in your normal hands.

If you can swing a sword, it seems to me that you can move your hands, and thus cast a spell...


Sorry Captain, I believe you are wrong on that statement - from the FAQ "If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own manufactured weapons or natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks. For example, a gnome synthesist fused with a two-armed biped eidolon has two arms it can use to make attacks; if the synthesist wants to make claw attacks with his eidolon's claws and also make weapon attacks (such as with a dagger or staff), he needs to give his eidolon additional arms evolutions to hold those weapons (as an extension of the summoner's own limbs)--a two-armed eidolon can't make two claw attacks and also make a dagger attack or staff attack in the same round."
So you need enough limbs to make the attacks.


I haven't really found any of these rules to be confusing really. They may not be optimal, or preferable, but not confusing either.


This probably isn't specific to the synthesist, but if I start out with a bipedal eidolon and give it a second set of Limbs(legs) does it then qualify as a quadruped for the sake of pounce and mount?


While the legs would add to stability they do not change the form of the eidolon.


David Thomassen wrote:
While the legs would add to stability they do not change the form of the eidolon.

Thanks I suspected that was the case. By the same rules then a Quadruped that has been given arms does not gain Reach from the Large evolution because it does not have a Bipedal base.

So much for my idea of a centaur pouncing into battle and using reach to control the battlefield.


Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
If you have enough limbs to do so, you should be able to get your natural attacks AND weapon attacks, though the weapon attacks would become secondary automatically.

The Natural Attacks would be secondary, not the weapon attacks.

The FAQ wrote:
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).


Thunderforge wrote:
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
If you have enough limbs to do so, you should be able to get your natural attacks AND weapon attacks, though the weapon attacks would become secondary automatically.

The Natural Attacks would be secondary, not the weapon attacks.

The FAQ wrote:
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).

Yep! Mis-typed it.

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