One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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David Thomassen wrote:

Sorry Captain, I believe you are wrong on that statement - from the FAQ "If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own manufactured weapons or natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks. For example, a gnome synthesist fused with a two-armed biped eidolon has two arms it can use to make attacks; if the synthesist wants to make claw attacks with his eidolon's claws and also make weapon attacks (such as with a dagger or staff), he needs to give his eidolon additional arms evolutions to hold those weapons (as an extension of the summoner's own limbs)--a two-armed eidolon can't make two claw attacks and also make a dagger attack or staff attack in the same round."

So you need enough limbs to make the attacks.

That is a change from before. Thanks


Would you allow a Synthesist Summoner to take monster feats?

An eidolon should be able to. But since your eidolon doesn't have any feats, is there a possible way to get any of those? For example, I really love Awesome Blow. But is there any possibility for a synthesist summoner to use such a feat??


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Amuny wrote:

Would you allow a Synthesist Summoner to take monster feats?

An eidolon should be able to. But since your eidolon doesn't have any feats, is there a possible way to get any of those? For example, I really love Awesome Blow. But is there any possibility for a synthesist summoner to use such a feat??

The rules say, can remember where, that if you can keep a bonus for 24 straight ours you can use it to qualify for things like feats and PrCs.

So since you can technically wear it for 24 hours, just stay up latter and not sleep, you can qualify for feats based on your eidolon's abilities.


If you have any source on that I'd be glad to get it, but interesting point.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

24 Hour Rule For Stat increases "Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

Once permanent you can use, say your increased strength, in acquiring a new feat, eg Power Attack.

For shorter durations:
Jason Bulmahn "...Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further."

& Sean K Reynolds"I'm a proponent of the school of "you can *select* it if you sometimes qualify, but you can only *use* it when you actually meet all the requirements."


Not sure if this is the right thread, but it is regarding a synthesist so I'll post. Was kinda curious how my 2nd level synthesist might look at 20th, assuming he survives. So, took an hour to quickly show what he might look like. Wondering if anyone would be willing to tell me how he compares to say a 20th fighter. This is the first time I've tried this, so I'm sure there's room for improvement, but I'm curious regardless.

Sorry about the formatting, did it on a spreadsheet and it didn't translate well. Tried to make it readable though.

:
Item
Amult Mighty Fists fire, shock, +3
Gauntlets Nat Armor (2x increase in
cost due to different item)

Belt Perfect +6 all phys stats
Boots of Speed
Bracers Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Amult Mighty Fists acid, ice, +3
Headband Ment Sup +6 all ment stats
Ioun Stone Pale Blue +2 str
Tome of Leadership +4 char
Ring of Protection +5 AC

HP: Summoner: 244 Eidolon: 185
AC: 56

Fort 18
Reflex 18
Will 22

Feats 10
Extra Evolution x4
Endurance
Die Hard
Combat Casting
Multi Attack
Toughness
Imp Nat Attack (Claws)

Attacks # Attacks Bonus Damage Reach
Bite 1 34 2d6+19 plus elem from amulet 15
Claws 4 34 2s6+19 plus elem from amulet 10
Wings 2 32 1d8+19 plus elem from amulet 10

Breath Weapon 3 15d6 damage of
electricity DC 15

Character uses one or other amulet of mighty fists. Usually uses acid/ice amulet.

Stats Score Bonus
Str: 42 16
Dex: 24 7
Con: 24 7
Int: 26 8
Wis: 20 5
Cha: 32 11

BAB: 15

Evolution Pool 34
Evo Points Spent 34
Bite 1
Imp Dam Bite 1
Imp Dam Claws 1
Imp Armor 4
Tail 1
Reach (Bite) 1
Wing Buf 1
Imp Dam Wing 1
Flight 2
Claws 0
Arms 0
Legs 0
Large 4
Breath Wapon 6
DR 10 5
Claws (Legs) 1
SR 31 4
Resist fire 15 1


Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Belt Perfect +6 all physical stats.

Would this apply to your fused stats? (I.e. The physical stats you get from the eidolon)


I'm sorry that I have to be like this, but since you asked: No it isn't. It's not even the right sub-forum. ;)

Please feel free to open a new thread in the advice-forum or revive one, like this.

I hope you (all of you who read this!) understand that if we debate particular builds (with equipment and everything) in this, we'll likely never get anywhere with all the still unanswered rules questions.

Speaking of which...
Jason? Sean? Is anyone of you guys going to address some of the major problems we still have, or some of the suggestions that have been made? Please?

Edit: Since it is a rules question...

Thunderforge wrote:
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Belt Perfect +6 all physical stats.
Would this apply to your fused stats? (I.e. The physical stats you get from the eidolon)

Yes. From the archetype: "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear." (Exception: armor does not improve your AC while fused.)


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Thunderforge wrote:
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Belt Perfect +6 all physical stats.
Would this apply to your fused stats? (I.e. The physical stats you get from the eidolon)

Yes it does.

All your items work normally, even while wearing your eidolon, as per the synthesist rules.

You get your eidolon's physical stats, then you account for the modifications from your gear.


Sorry for the improper posting. Good luck with the continued rules clarification, but I'm not sure what problems are still present.


The problems include:

- How does non-lethal damage interact with temp HP in general and with the synthesist in particular?

- The "different HP totals in normal and fused forms through different con scores and jumping from one HP total to the other when summoning/dismissing" issue

- Why does it have to be temp HP? Couldn't it be ruled in another way to ease healing?

- Can I pick up items while fused? Even if my eidolon doesn't have any hands/arms/tentacles? (And if so, why can't I cast spells then?)

Plus there's still no officially posted Natural Spell feat offshoot.

And I bet there are other issues, buried somewhere in this thread. ;)


Cyberwolf2xs wrote:

The problems include:

- How does non-lethal damage interact with temp HP in general and with the synthesist in particular?

- The "different HP totals in normal and fused forms through different con scores and jumping from one HP total to the other when summoning/dismissing" issue

- Why does it have to be temp HP? Couldn't it be ruled in another way to ease healing?

- Can I pick up items while fused? Even if my eidolon doesn't have any hands/arms/tentacles? (And if so, why can't I cast spells then?)

Plus there's still no officially posted Natural Spell feat offshoot.

And I bet there are other issues, buried somewhere in this thread. ;)

I'm still new but, nothing I've seen says temporary hit points act differently in regards to nonlethal.

If you mean, in fused form you have a +3 HP / level due to con, and unfused you have a +2, when you drop, do you lose HP.. Yes, yes you do.

It's not that difficult dealing with it as temp HP. My synthesist hasn't had any issues. He's only 2nd level, so that's not the end all be all of statements, but still, it's not been any kinda problem to this point.

No, you can't. The way I see it, the synthesist doesn't/can't reach outside the eidolon "shell". If you can do something, like drink a potion, inside the eidolon, fine. Otherwise, you need eidolon hands to affect the outside world.

These are all my opinions, but they're based off of common sense from my point of view.


Only that common sense doesn't apply to the synthesist rules.

Please, read back a few pages if you think everything's fine.

(Edit: Gee, do I start to sound like Cartigan...?)

Like this: The rules say that you can use any of your equipment and abilities while fused. But apparently, you can't.
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
The answer is "Yes, but no."
It starts with "Yes" (as in: yes, you can make attacks from your own body, with a manufactured weapon) and later tells you that you have to place the weapon in your eidolon's hand.
If the weapon is in its hand instead of yours, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?
If your eidolon has to have a capable limb available to make the unarmed strike you are supposed to be able to make from your own body, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?

Besides, how are you supposed to place the weapon in its hand at all?

Does the eidolon reach into itself and takes it from your hand? If so, shouldn't you be able to stick its hand into itself and make the somatic gestures to cast spells inside, where no grappling foe could hinder you?

Does it magically teleport from one hand to the other?

Do you stick it out of your eidolon shell so that its hand can grab it? If so, shouldn't you also be able to stick it out of the shell and into the face of an enemy?

If you can do tasks of manual dexterity like those you mentioned inside your eidolon even if your eidolon doesn't have hands, shouldn't you also be able to make the gestures required to cast a spell?

This should be enough for now... Otherwise I'll end up reposting everything. Again.


Cyberwolf2xs wrote:

Only that common sense doesn't apply to the synthesist rules.

Please, read back a few pages if you think everything's fine.

(Edit: Gee, do I start to sound like Cartigan...?)

Like this: The rules say that you can use any of your equipment and abilities while fused. But apparently, you can't.
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
The answer is "Yes, but no."
It starts with "Yes" (as in: yes, you can make attacks from your own body, with a manufactured weapon) and later tells you that you have to place the weapon in your eidolon's hand.
If the weapon is in its hand instead of yours, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?
If your eidolon has to have a capable limb available to make the unarmed strike you are supposed to be able to make from your own body, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?

Besides, how are you supposed to place the weapon in its hand at all?

Does the eidolon reach into itself and takes it from your hand? If so, shouldn't you be able to stick its hand into itself and make the somatic gestures to cast spells inside, where no grappling foe could hinder you?

Does it magically teleport from one hand to the other?

Do you stick it out of your eidolon shell so that its hand can grab it? If so, shouldn't you also be able to stick it out of the shell and into the face of an enemy?

If you can do tasks of manual dexterity like those you mentioned inside your eidolon even if your eidolon doesn't have hands, shouldn't you also be able to make the gestures required to cast a spell?

This should be enough for now... Otherwise I'll end up reposting everything. Again.

I have actually been reading this thread for quite awhile. I read it before creating my synthesist. That rule does need clarification, I forgot it's exact wording. It is confusing. I'd guess the intention is just you can use mfr weapons with the eidolon, but to use them and eidolon's natural weapons, you need the extra limbs. The parts that talk about being able to make the attacks WITH the summoner are in error. But, that's just my guess, and it should be fixed. It could easily be a different thing, but that would just complicate things IMHO.

As far as the reaching inside the eidolon, or doing thins inside the eidolon, I think folks have a different picture than I do of the eidolon. Unless you're small sized, and the eidolon is large, there's not a lot of room inside the eidolon. In the normal scenario, it's medium sized, you're medium sized. Even if you're at the bottom, and it's at the top of the scale, it's not like you have a ton of room inside there with you. If you've ever seen someone inside a level A hazmat suit, you have a sort of idea of what you can do in the eidolon. Pulling a potion out and drinking it, or drawing a weapon and just sort of pushing it out of the hand of the eidolon isn't out of the range of possibility I would think.


Cyberwolf2xs wrote:

Only that common sense doesn't apply to the synthesist rules.

Please, read back a few pages if you think everything's fine.

(Edit: Gee, do I start to sound like Cartigan...?)

Like this: The rules say that you can use any of your equipment and abilities while fused. But apparently, you can't.
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
The answer is "Yes, but no."
It starts with "Yes" (as in: yes, you can make attacks from your own body, with a manufactured weapon) and later tells you that you have to place the weapon in your eidolon's hand.
If the weapon is in its hand instead of yours, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?
If your eidolon has to have a capable limb available to make the unarmed strike you are supposed to be able to make from your own body, you aren't making an attack from your own body, are you?

Besides, how are you supposed to place the weapon in its hand at all?

Does the eidolon reach into itself and takes it from your hand? If so, shouldn't you be able to stick its hand into itself and make the somatic gestures to cast spells inside, where no grappling foe could hinder you?

Does it magically teleport from one hand to the other?

Do you stick it out of your eidolon shell so that its hand can grab it? If so, shouldn't you also be able to stick it out of the shell and into the face of an enemy?

If you can do tasks of manual dexterity like those you mentioned inside your eidolon even if your eidolon doesn't have hands, shouldn't you also be able to make the gestures required to cast a spell?

This should be enough for now... Otherwise I'll end up reposting everything. Again.

I don't think it's really as complicated as you want it to be. As Sean has stated over and over again, you're one creature when fused. There's no "eidolon's hands". Or, if you prefer, there's only eidolon hands. The end result is the same. If your fused form has two arms, you have two arms. Not four. Not your two plus the eidolon's two. Just two. If the fused form has no arms, congratulations, you are now functionally armless.

There are still unresolved issues regarding the synthesist, but this really isn't one of them.


If that's so, then how does the eidolon reach into itself and pull things out of your backpack? Or are you proposing that a Small-sized Summoner can summon a Huge-sized eidolon and all of his gear will automagically expand to fit it, despite nothing of the sort being described by the class?


uriel222 wrote:


Weapons and Equipment
Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

1b) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

sorry if this has been answered officialy, but thinking about the (imo) very clear RAI on this one i would just change the RAW to something like:

While fused with his eidolon, this new fused being is not restricted from the use of any of the summoners abilities and gear except in any circumstances where the eidolon lacks the limbs or apendages to use said gear or abilities.

then you can use the standard magic item rules for gear sizes and usage to see what the "fused being" can use.

ie: When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

so all magic items should be fine, worn on the personage of the eidolon while fused (and therefore sunderable etc)

and then there is: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100)

so all weapons stay the same size, ie a gnome summoner has a small magical longsword, so a large eidolon while fused can use it as long as he has arms with hands at the end of them, but its still only a small longsword (not a large one)

as for non magic equipment, i would say RAI is that you either fuse with it inside, and so its not usealbe, because reaching inside oneself is stupid and impossible. or you drop it first and then pick it up with your eidolon (if you have hands etc).

Any other interpritation of the rules is imo blatent power gaming and trying to get round clear RAI by way of having slightly vague RAW.

However so many posts tells me Paizo should just get some clear errata up so people can play with the rules provided rather than trying to squeeze extra mileage out of an already powerful Archetype.


PathfinderSteve wrote:
uriel222 wrote:


Weapons and Equipment
Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

1b) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

sorry if this has been answered officialy, but thinking about the (imo) very clear RAI on this one i would just change the RAW to something like:

While fused with his eidolon, this new fused being is not restricted from the use of any of the summoners abilities and gear except in any circumstances where the eidolon lacks the limbs or apendages to use said gear or abilities.

then you can use the standard magic item rules for gear sizes and usage to see what the "fused being" can use.

ie: When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

so all magic items should be fine, worn on the personage of the eidolon while fused (and therefore sunderable etc)

and then there is: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100)

so all weapons stay the same size, ie a gnome summoner has a small magical longsword, so a large eidolon while fused can use it as long as he has arms with hands at the end of them, but its still only a small longsword (not a large one)

as for non magic equipment, i would say RAI is that you either fuse with it inside, and so its not usealbe, because reaching inside oneself is stupid and impossible. or you...

It has been answered. You cannot use armor, it doesn't work. Any effects of armor don't work while the synthesist has his eidolon "on". You can use weapons or other items, depending on whether you have sufficient limbs. All other magic items work as normal while the synthesist is wearing them.

Scarab Sages

Lemartes wrote:
Anyways, I'm trying to build a Synthesist and would appreciate some help. I'm thinking that since you can use all of your own abilities it applies to feats, weapon pro's etc. So if I use a great axe or whatever I use it at the Summoner's listed level BAB which surprise surprise matches the Eidolon's.

The BAB's do not match. A level 1 synthesist has a 0 BAB while unfused and a 1 BAB while fused. A similar discrepency exists at any level not evenly divisable by 4.

The Eidolon BAB is front loaded, while character BAB is not.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It appears, I think, that SKR has done all he plans to do for the synthesist. Broken and unwieldy as it is, its only fixable in home games now.


I certainly hope you're wrong on this, Seraphimpunk...

He could at least give his ruling on the questions we (or I) still have.

Because what some non-developer says without rules quotations to actually back it up, is of no impact to most GMs one (or I) might have to discuss the synthesist with.

Contributor

Seraphimpunk wrote:
It appears, I think, that SKR has done all he plans to do for the synthesist. Broken and unwieldy as it is, its only fixable in home games now.

Yes, me not having any more information at this time clearly means the book is closed on this topic.

BTW, hostile, snarky, and/or passive-aggressive posts are not the way to encourage Paizo staff to give you information.


While the rules for the synthesist clearly describe them as a summoner and an eidolon fused together to form a single creature I think it's the fluff text that describes the appearance that causes a lot of confusion.

The image of a translucent form with a summoner floating in the middle as it describes (and as shown in some of the MTG art linked to) sounds more like a caster surrounded by an aura of some type. The ability to see both the summoner inside and the aura still paints the image of two entities (one inside the other).

When I think of two (or more) entities fusing together to form a single entity I picture a solid form. Depending on which generation you are from picture:

Flame Swordsman from Yu-Gi-Oh
Devastator from Transformers
Gotenks from Dragonball Z
Bo-Jiggler from Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
Voltron

I think describing the synthesist's appearance more along these lines makes the rules about not casting somatic spells without arms (and the other limbs controversies) make more sense.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't think we should have a synthesist version of Natural Spell. I think it's a logical solution.


Or Errata to the Synthesist Archetype to say that Natural Spell applies to it.
(Errata`ing Natural Spell wouldn`t make sense since it`s in the Core Book, which doesn`t have the Summoner/ Synthesist)

Scarab Sages

Personally, I believe that a merged synthesist should follow the same set of rules and restrictions as a druid in animal form. It would make for a much more consistant and simpler set of rules.

On the HP issue, the Eidolon hits points should simply be added as a pool of bonus hit points. All damage is subtracted from this pool first, all healing is applied to this pool first. The pool is not refreshed while the eidolon is absent.

As for SKR's comment earlier in the thread comparing an synthesist's hit points to a barbarians: I ask, what is a synthesist the best at? Where is he supposed to shine? What are the strong points he's gained by giving up his eidolon as a discreet entity.

1. It's not dps: A normal summoner or any number of other builds are better, including many barbarian builds.

2. It's not action efficiency: A normal summoner or a druid are both much better choices.

3. Casting? A melee orientated synthesist is rarely goiong to cast in combat. Not only would it be a significant decrease in dps, it would also generate AoO's like mad. If I'm going to focus on casting, I picked the wrong class to begin with.

4. Survivabiity: Here the Synthesist can shine. I may not be the best caster or have the highest dps, but If I build for it, damn am I hard to kill. Pushing my survivability through the stratosphere is going to use most of my evolutions though.

5. Utility: Here also I can shine, if I build for it. I can push a small number of skills to very high levels + buff the party. If I'm building for Utility though, I'm making major sacrifices in other areas.

The best solution: Probably errata the entire archtype based on feedback from this thread. A much cleaner solution than a hodge-podge of rulings resulting from an ambigious archtype description.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

not being snarky. just keeping the thread alive. aside from the open questions, other synthesist threads are opening for other questions, but this one doesn't see a lot of activity anymore (then again 700+ is probably a healthy size thread )
and you haven't chimed in, in a while. I dunno if you're just busy with other things or have given the synthesist all the attention you can at the moment.


Seraphimpunk wrote:

not being snarky. just keeping the thread alive. aside from the open questions, other synthesist threads are opening for other questions, but this one doesn't see a lot of activity anymore (then again 700+ is probably a healthy size thread )

and you haven't chimed in, in a while. I dunno if you're just busy with other things or have given the synthesist all the attention you can at the moment.

You know one way you can keep the thread alive is going through every post and see if the FAQ caught all the questions everyone had.

Make your unofficial FAQ here.
For questions answered you mark in Official FAQ.

Example:
1. Regarding: While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.
Q: 1 A)While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?
A:1 A) In FAQ, no.

Q: 1 B) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

A: 1 B) See FAQ, only if the eidolon has hands.

2. Regarding: The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane...While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

Q: 2 A) Is there any way of healing the Eidolon (i.e. replacing the temporary hitpoints)? What happens when the synthesist/eidolon is targeted with cure light wounds? What about rejuvenate eidolon? Channeled positive energy? Negative?

A: 2 A) See FAQ, only rejuvenate heals Eidolon hp,


Our group will start serpents skull soon, and i am currently reasearching the Synthesist for a fellow player. After finding the faq all my important questions have been cleared up, an some others aren´t that tough to rule based on the faq.

I just wanted to mention two things:

Fused Eidolon says it replaces the eidolon ability, but in fact without the orginginal eidlon ability, you have no clue how to summon the eidolon. So maybe it should read "changes the class´s eidolon ability".

Does anybody ever take the armor bonus when they could take the natural armor bonus? Is there currently a spell of ability, (in Pathfinder) that weakens or ignores the natural armor, but not regular armor?

Scarab Sages

Banpai wrote:


Fused Eidolon says it replaces the eidolon ability, but in fact without the orginginal eidlon ability, you have no clue how to summon the eidolon. So maybe it should read "changes the class´s eidolon ability".

This is an important distinction. It prevents a synthesist from taking certain feats, such a vigilant eidolon. This prevents a synthesist from starting starting with a 20 perception.

Quote:
Does anybody ever take the armor bonus when they could take the natural armor bonus? Is there currently a spell of ability, (in Pathfinder) that weakens or ignores the natural armor, but not regular armor?

There is no reason to take armor instead of natural armor. A synthesist that makes this choice will generally have other synthesist /point & /laugh. I'm not being mean, it's just that natural armor stacks with mage armor / bracers of armor and the alternative does not.


Artanthos wrote:
Banpai wrote:


Fused Eidolon says it replaces the eidolon ability, but in fact without the orginginal eidlon ability, you have no clue how to summon the eidolon. So maybe it should read "changes the class´s eidolon ability".

This is an important distinction. It prevents a synthesist from taking certain feats, such a vigilant eidolon. This prevents a synthesist from starting starting with a 20 perception.

Quote:
Does anybody ever take the armor bonus when they could take the natural armor bonus? Is there currently a spell of ability, (in Pathfinder) that weakens or ignores the natural armor, but not regular armor?
There is no reason to take armor instead of natural armor. A synthesist that makes this choice will generally have other synthesist /point & /laugh. I'm not being mean, it's just that natural armor stacks with mage armor / bracers of armor and the alternative does not.

Thank you I had not considered that this prevents acces to these feats (of course I would have argued that some feats have no effect), I just wanted to mention that without reference to the orginal replaced ability, there is no rules text concerning the actual summoning of the eidolon.

Concerning the armor bit, it´s not just the synthesists, one of my players plays a summoner and with mage armor he´s really tough to take out. Once or twice in my Kingmaker game I managed to knock out the summoner, but he has recently covered that weakness with a feat.


Not sure if this has been covered yet, but my search-fu failed me:

How are the temporary hitpoints the summoner gains when fused calculated?

Do you add bonus hp from a high constitution to the temporary hitpoints, or does the summoner get only the the hp from hd?(the way I read it, the changed constitution will change the bonus hitpoints of the summonner of course).

Scarab Sages

The synthesist effectively double dips on Constitution. While fused, he calculates both his own hit point bonus and his eidolon's hit point bonus using the eidolon's Con. When the eidolon goes away, the synthesist calculates bonus hp using his normal Con.

If the synthesist has taken damage and the eidolon has a significantly higher Con, this can easily result in a dead synthesist, as he will loose hp in much the same manner that a barbarian leaving rage will. On the other hand, a synthesist with a high Con than his eidolon will actually gain hp.

On a related note, I'm seening the min / max crowd advocat dumping str / dex / con down to 7. What they don't think about is that this results in the sythesist hp total dropping by 40 points at 10'th level (assuming an eidolon con of 14). If he's been sacrificing hp to keep his eidolon, he's a walking dead man if that eidolon gets banished, dropping from 30 to -10 instantly.


If you drop down you are a dead man. Having more con than your eidolon will not be of any assistance. And beside, if you have a COS 14 eidolon and a cos say 10 summoner, you need at least to up you cos to 16 to have any benefit (1 HP/HD, and only after you eidolon is gone). Is simply not whort it.

Scarab Sages

I've been taking a 14 con on my builds, so my base hp won't fluctuate. With a 12 con, your still looking at a 10 hp drop at level 10. If you've burned your hp down to 1 keeping your eidolon up, even a 1 hp / level difference can be lethal.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Banpai wrote:


Does anybody ever take the armor bonus when they could take the natural armor bonus? Is there currently a spell of ability, (in Pathfinder) that weakens or ignores the natural armor, but not regular armor?

yeah, better to keep it as natural armor. there's attacks that can destroy or reduce "armor" bonuses, and things like brilliant energy which can bypass armor but not natural armor. so you're really accepting a penalty, for flavor, if you choose to make your eidolon's bonus an Armor bonus.

Starbuck, that FAQ list is more confusing than 700 posts of banter. I don't have time to go through the entire list and figure out what has been answered and what hasn't. there are other posts already about what remains an open issue. i think my top three are:

1. please fix summoner's temp hp into regular hp, they're easier to digest for everyone.
2. stop the double dipping. fix the summoner's hp as his own base hp with his own con modifier. have the eidolon's con effect the eidolon only.
3. allow summoners to use all of their abilities in all of their forms like the archtype says, without paying a tax. home games can do the Natural Spell feat as applies to eidolons, but this is still an extra step on non-humanioid build summoners.


I've avoided chiming in up to this point (mostly because things were already way overheated), but for what it's worth...

I really have few issues with the way that the summoner is constructed, rules wise, although it does require an unusual amount on interpretation.

All of the 'item' rulings seem consistent in that the fused synthesist acts as if the items are worn by the fused being, not by the synthesist inside the eidolon (whether they are *actually* worn by the fused being is a matter of cosmetics, they act *as if* they are worn by the fused being). Since the eidolon cannot wear armor, it cannot benefit from worn armor...I'm OK with that. Spell components, etc, act as if the eidolon is wearing them, and so has access to them.

I have no real issue with 'no arms=no arm actions'. Yes, it's an Evolution Tax (or Feat Tax if you allow Natural Spell) to be able to cast spells in this case...non-biped forms are not optimal, just as some weapon choices a fighter may make for RP reasons may be non-optimal. Personally, I see no issue with taking a 'biped' eidolon and saying it *looks* like a tiger (for example)...just a tiger that seems unusually capable of manipulating objects with its front legs.

Temp HP are clunky, and not my favorite, but I can live with them. The biggest problem I have with the Temp HP idea is ruling that Cure Spells cannot be used on a synthesist's eidolon, even though they can be used on a regular eidolon...That seems harsh.

The only issue for me that remains is the interaction of the temp HP with non-lethal damage. Common sense would say that the eidolon's temp HP has its own separate counter for non-lethal damage, but I don't think that's RAW, and would prefer to see something official along that line (and probably regarding temp HP and non-lethal damage in general).


First - Sorry if this has been answered before but the thread is damn long to read :o

Quick question: When being a synthesist and fused can I still benefit from lets say the monks wisdom modifier added AC?

Also it appears to me that the AC is extremely bad when you start at lvl 1 ie lets say you have a biped baseform, then you get +2 natural armor bonus and then he has 12 dex so the AC for that eidolon would be 3 AC, which basically means automatic hit :p

/Thrilled

Scarab Sages

1. Yes, you benefit from monk wis bonus

2. Spend 1 evolution on improved natural armor (+2)

3. Mage Armor has a duration of 1 hour / level (+4)

4. feat: Dodge (+1) : I only do this If I'm human.

15 ac unbuffed, 19 ac buffed. If your really worried, sacrifice one of your claw attacks and carry a shield for a 21 AC.

After a few levels the shield is pointless, mage armor is permanently up, your natural armor goes through the roof, and you have the option to invest in dex.

Or, you could go quad and buy arms + improved natural armor at first level. Your starting dex goes to 14. It will save you the trouble of buying additional limbs further down the road when you need additional claw attacks and give you access to pounce. If reach is important to you, take the evolution at second level.


Just so I get this clear:

If I am a synthesist and have 3 primary attacks with my weapon (either scimitar or unarmed) and the eidolon has lets say 4 attacks (2 claws, tail, bite).

How many attacks can I have if the eidolons max lvl will be 14?

Reason I ask is this:

Quote:
The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.

This is a very interesting questions to me.

Does it mean that I have 3 attacks + 4 natural attacks (as the limit to the eidolon allows max 4 naturals.

Or does it it mean that I am only allowed 4 attacks as total (ie 3 primary and one natural or any other combination)? If so then it's quite harsh since it's rather easy to just gain 6-7 attacks with the TWF feats + your primary attacks. (which also would mean that multiclassing a Synthesist would be pretty worthless imo)

Thanks in advance!

/T


I don't even know any more.

Originally it was Synthesists were shafted by having their TOTAL attacks - both Summoner & Eidolon derived combined, including BAB - limited by the Eidolon's ridiculous max attack limit. But who knows how it is now?


Cartigan wrote:

I don't even know any more.

Originally it was Synthesists were shafted by having their TOTAL attacks - both Summoner & Eidolon derived combined, including BAB - limited by the Eidolon's ridiculous max attack limit. But who knows how it is now?

Looking foward to see if anyone else knows more for sure.

Also does Arcane Strike work with natural weapons?

Quote:

Arcane Strike (Combat)

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

/Thrilled

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

i thought max attacks just limited natural attacks. manufactured attacks arent limited. you just need enough hands in your fused form in order to wield the weapons, and still have hands/limbs/mouth free to take natural attacks. if you're doing three attacks from manufactured weapons like holding three one-handed swords, you'll need three hands. if you want to bite, and get three secondary claw attacks, you've gotta have your mouth free, and have three more hands. so you'll need 6 hands, two extra limb evolutions if you're biped, and at least one more claw evolution.
but afaik sean didn't limit the total number of attacks. the limit on attacks , as listed, is just on natural attacks.

@thrilled -
why wouldn't arcane strike work with natural weapons? it doesn't specify manufactured weapons. Its not even limited to melee weapons. My dragon disciple uses them with his sorcerer claws and bite.


There's one more question: What does the Twin Eidolon class feature that the Synthesist doesn't not already have?
More precisely, being Twin Eidolon a Polymorph effect, can I double my evolutions and thus stack their bonuses with the Fused Eidolon' evolutions?

Scarab Sages

thrilled wrote:

Just so I get this clear:

If I am a synthesist and have 3 primary attacks with my weapon (either scimitar or unarmed) and the eidolon has lets say 4 attacks (2 claws, tail, bite).

How many attacks can I have if the eidolons max lvl will be 14?

Reason I ask is this:

Quote:
The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.

This is a very interesting questions to me.

Does it mean that I have 3 attacks + 4 natural attacks (as the limit to the eidolon allows max 4 naturals.

Or does it it mean that I am only allowed 4 attacks as total (ie 3 primary and one natural or any other combination)? If so then it's quite harsh since it's rather easy to just gain 6-7 attacks with the TWF feats + your primary attacks. (which also would mean that multiclassing a Synthesist would be pretty worthless imo)

Thanks in advance!

/T

By the current FAQ, the second you mix in even a single natural attack, you cap at your eidolon's max attacks, even if you would normally have more attacks without using your natural attacks.

i.e. Don't bother with the two-weapon fighting chain if you have synthesist levels.

Scarab Sages

To expand on my previous post, this is my current understanding of how attacks work:

Character A: Has claws, a 16+ BAB, and the two-weapon fighting chain.
He can make 7 attacks / round; 4 primary + 3 secondary. He has the option
of holding a weapon in either hand instead of using his claws. He takes a
-2 penalty to each attack if using appropriate weapons and only applies 1/2
str to secondary attacks.

Character B: A 19+ synthesist who has 7+ claws. he can make 7 attacks / round
using his full BAB(15) and full str. Note that his BAB is at least 1 lower than
character A, and may be up to 5 lower. That is, even with the -2 penalty to TWF
character A may be swinging with an addition +3 to-hit over the synthesist.

Character C: A normal Eidolon with 12 arms + bite, multiattack, and multiweapon
fighting. Holding appropriate weapons in all hands I receive an iterative attack
with one weapon + 11 secondary attacks with the other weapons + a bite as a secondary
attack. All attacks are at -2 to hit, all but the iterative attacks use only 1/2
strength. There is no requirement this eidolon belong to a 19 summoner, it can be done
earlier.

Character D: Same as character A, but foolishly added 1 level of Synthesist. While fused
he is restricted to 4 attacks if using any claws and can only make 2 of those attacks (both claw) if he
wants full BAB / strength. If he uses only manufactured weapons, he still receives all 7
attacks. This restriction does not apply if he's unfused and has claws from another source.


Artanthos wrote:
thrilled wrote:

Just so I get this clear:

If I am a synthesist and have 3 primary attacks with my weapon (either scimitar or unarmed) and the eidolon has lets say 4 attacks (2 claws, tail, bite).

How many attacks can I have if the eidolons max lvl will be 14?

Reason I ask is this:

Quote:
The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.

This is a very interesting questions to me.

Does it mean that I have 3 attacks + 4 natural attacks (as the limit to the eidolon allows max 4 naturals.

Or does it it mean that I am only allowed 4 attacks as total (ie 3 primary and one natural or any other combination)? If so then it's quite harsh since it's rather easy to just gain 6-7 attacks with the TWF feats + your primary attacks. (which also would mean that multiclassing a Synthesist would be pretty worthless imo)

Thanks in advance!

/T

By the current FAQ, the second you mix in even a single natural attack, you cap at your eidolon's max attacks, even if you would normally have more attacks without using your natural attacks.

i.e. Don't bother with the two-weapon fighting chain if you have synthesist levels.

I never said that I would use the TWF chain, but I do plan to use the 3 primary attacks that I gain by the BAB, so no offhand attacks at all.

/T

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

no, i checked the FAQ. the first line of response makes it clear: the Max Attacks entry for eidolons only limits the Natural Attacks your eidolon/synthesist makes. The last line of the FAQ entry clarifies that it was in error before.

you can mix manufactured attacks in without penalty.

Quote:


Yes, but the fused character's natural attacks are still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level. For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 natural attacks per round, whether those natural attacks are from the eidolon, [natural attacks from ]the synthesist, or a combination of the two.

...

Note: This clarifies an earlier FAQ error where the summoner's weapon attacks counted toward the number of attacks on the table.

i only added the clarification of what attacks from the synthesist count towards that: natural attacks.

A monk/synthesist could make two flurry attacks with his left but cheek, and then make his natural claw attacks ( as secondary attacks , as they're being combined with manufactured attacks )

per arathos's 3 examples:
a 16 bab character with claws and twf: well, you can't TWF with claws. they're natural attacks. that character would only be able to take two claw attacks. If he was fighting with two weapons and had a free hand somehow ( sword and armor spikes ) he could take manufactured attacks at base 14/14 secondary claw attack at a base 9.

b. 15 bab synthesist with lots of arms , would make 7 claw attacks at full bab.

c. you can do this with a synthesist. a biped form with 6 sets of limbs, holding appropriate weapons, can take 12 attacks plus a bite with the bite evolution.

d. 16 bab with one level of synth, can still take his twf series of attacks 14/14. if he's got spare limbs, he can mix in as many secondary natural attacks as he has limbs + evolutions, limited by the max attacks entry.


Artanthos wrote:


Character D: Same as character A, but foolishly added 1 level of Synthesist. While fused
he is restricted to 4 attacks if using any claws and can only make 2 of those attacks (both claw) if he
wants full BAB / strength. If he uses only manufactured weapons, he still receives all 7
attacks. This restriction does not apply if he's unfused and has claws from another source.

So basically if I decided to I could go with the full TWF line and only use manufactured weapons and using no natural attacks and then pull off 7 attacks and just use the evolution points on other things then attacks?

Just trying to figure out they limit the eidolon as a synthesist. Why not just limit the total nr of attacks to 7 regardless of what lvl your eidolon is then you can have a cheap eidolon (why you now would like that) and still decide to invest in tons of feats to get the remaining attacks you looking for to a maximum of 7.

/T


Seraphimpunk wrote:

no, i checked the FAQ. the first line of response makes it clear: the Max Attacks entry for eidolons only limits the Natural Attacks your eidolon/synthesist makes. The last line of the FAQ entry clarifies that it was in error before.

you can mix manufactured attacks in without penalty.

Quote:


Yes, but the fused character's natural attacks are still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level. For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 natural attacks per round, whether those natural attacks are from the eidolon, [natural attacks from ]the synthesist, or a combination of the two.

Actually just as you pointed it out it becomes very clear.. I admit that I failed to read it like that until it was pointed out. Even more so if we read carefully it actually says "Whether those natural attacks are from (Eidolon, synthesist or combination of the two).

Thanks for clearing it up.. I am a bit amazed that it became so clear suddenly :)

Since it's late for me and the brain isn't working at full speed then I will ask you a question:

Lets say I have 13 synthesist lvls and I am using TWF + Improved unarmed strike. How would my attacks look like assuming that I want to make the maximum attacks available. The thing that worries me quite a bit is that the eidolons bab of 10 isn't that strong :( I would much more prefer to use my own bab. Anyway looking forward to your response.

/T

/Thrilled

Scarab Sages

Seraphimpunk wrote:

no, i checked the FAQ. the first line of response makes it clear: the Max Attacks entry for eidolons only limits the Natural Attacks your eidolon/synthesist makes. The last line of the FAQ entry clarifies that it was in error before.

Quote:
Note: This clarifies an earlier FAQ error where the summoner's weapon attacks counted toward the number of attacks on the table.

They've updated that part of the FAQ since I last read it.

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