One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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I'm siding with SKR on this one. It's like a fashion trend here on the boards that just won't die.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Again, this is one of the increasingly common board discussions where you know how something should work, and you're deliberately acting like you don't know that just so you can prove a point that the rules are "unclear," in that they aren't thousands of pages long that explain every possible permutation of possibility.

You understand how the rules should work.

I don't talk to you like you don't understand how the rules should work.

Why are you presenting an argument as if you don't understand how the rules should work?

that is clearly not what is happening here. He is just poring over what the logical consequences are of your statements and the rules as you describe them. But instead of fixing problems apparently the solution is to attempt to just duct tape over each issue as it comes up instead of just addressing them thoroughly. Being lazy about it by deciding to just use temporary hp and then attempting to half fix your mistake by making a single temporary hp healing exception(rejuvenate eidolon) is just one example of the backwards way this archetype is being approached.

Edit: fixed duck tape for those who find it easier to nitpick typos then to actually do anything useful. I would be much more embarrassed if I were part of a group of four developers who spent an entire conversation discussing fixing an archetype without knowing how one of its abilities worked(I'm talking about some people who supposedly fixed the rules without knowing how share spells works).


Because on one hand you're objecting to something on the grounds that you don't want to make more exceptions, and on the other hand the rule that you made on the subject created more exceptions.

I'm arguing for a simplified rule profile of the archetype by pointing out the logical holes created by your rulings.

Quote:
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."

This is exactly how it works now.

"Hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone"? Check.

"and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points"? Check.

"and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious"? Check.

"but these aren't temporary hit points"? Check, because they're a new class of hit points that functions kind of like temp hp and kind of like normal hp, spread across two entities.

"so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points"? Check, because logic (the eidolon is taking actual hit point damage in proportion to the temporary hit points I lose, so if the eidolon and I share the same body for targeting purposes, healing spells cast on me should restore my eidolon's lost hit points) has been denied by your ruling.

---

EDIT: By the way, this entire debate could be resolved simply:

"Fused Eidolon: ... Damage dealt to the synthesist is applied to the eidolon's hit points. When the eidolon's hit points reach 0, it is sent back to its home plane as if it was slain. ...
Fused Link: ... Whenever his eidolon's hit points would be reduced to 0, ..."

That solves everything. No strange temp hp interactions, no questions about hit points upon summoning, no loopholes for summoning at full hit points, no rules exceptions, no new types of hit points. Three changed sentences (two of them slight changes).

Contributor

Wikipedia entry on "duck tape"


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Wikipedia entry on "duck tape"

Is this where I reply with "Rabbit tape!" and you reply with "Duck tape!" and in the end it's me saying "Duck tape!" and you strap me to a wall with some duct tape or something?

I honestly have no clue what that was supposed to mean.

Also, because you reply way too fast and I tend to post, then fine tune in edits, I'm going to post my edit to my above post:

By the way, this entire debate could be resolved simply:

"Fused Eidolon: ... Damage dealt to the synthesist is applied to the eidolon's hit points. When the eidolon's hit points reach 0, it is sent back to its home plane as if it was slain. ...
Fused Link: ... Whenever his eidolon's hit points would be reduced to 0, ..."

That solves everything. No strange temp hp interactions, no questions about hit points upon summoning, no loopholes for summoning at full hit points, no rules exceptions, no new types of hit points. Three changed sentences (two of them slight changes).

Contributor

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite.

No, Foz, they interact with the rules exactly like temporary hit points.

If I were explaining this archetype to a robot that understands the summoner class, this is how I would do it:

1. Calculate Hit Dice for your eidolon using the normal summoner rules. Write this on your character sheet.
2. Calculate hit points for your eidolon using the normal summoner rules. Write this on your character sheet. You can call this "eidolon hit points" or "temporary hit points from the eidolon."
3. Instead of summoning an eidolon that is a separate creature with its own hit points, a synthesist's eidolon fuses with his body like a magical skin.
4. When fused this way, instead of the eidolon having its own hit points, the synthesist gains temporary hit points equal to how many hit points the eidolon would normally have. Like all temporary hit points, damage to the fused synthesist comes off these temporary hit points first. You can mark these off on your character sheet where you wrote them down in Rule 2.
5. When those temporary hit points reach 0, the "magical skin" is dismissed, just like a normal eidolon that has been killed by having its hit points reduced to 0.
6. Normally, when an eidolon is injured, anyone can heal its hit points with curative magic. Because the synthesist's "magic skin" is temporary hit points instead of normal hit points, regular cures don't work. To restore lost temporary hit points from the eidolon "magic skin," someone has to use the rejuvenate eidolon spell, which (for the synthesist only) restores lost temporary hit points from his eidolon "magic skin." You can mark these restored temporary hit points on your character sheet where you wrote them down in Rule 2.
7. Normally, when a summoner's eidolon is killed, he can summon it back the next day at half its normal hit points. For a synthesist, because of Rule 4, resummoning a "killed" eidolon "magic skin" means it grants the synthesist half the temporary hit points it normally does. For example, if your eidolon has 50 hit points from Rule 2, the synthesist would only get 25 temporary hit points.
8. Normally, when a summoner goes unconscious, his eidolon is banished. Because of Rule 3 and Rule 4, when a synthesist goes to sleep, his eidolon "magic skin" vanishes, and the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon "magic skin" go away. You don't have to erase or change the eidolon's hit points that you wrote down in Rule 2, you just can't use them on your synthesist while he's asleep.
9. Normally, a summoner can dismiss his eidolon and summon it later with the same number of hit points it had when he banished it. For a synthesist, he can banish his eidolon "magic skin" (which means he loses all temporary hit points from his eidolon "magic skin") and summon it later; when he summons it later, he gains the same number of temporary hit points it was giving him before he banished it.

Fortunately, you're not a robot. You're smarter than that, and I don't have to give you this level of detail to understand how this archetype works, right?

Scarab Sages

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:


The simplest way to handle it is to not let curatives affect the synthesist's temp hp (because curatives ignore temp hp in every other part of the game).

The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.

As such, anything that would heal normal hit points would work on the synthesist.

Contributor

Artanthos wrote:
The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.

So the synthesist is at full power even when he has 1 hit point? Synth with 40 hp and 60 eidolon hp takes 99 points of damage, and he's still running around in his synthesist suit?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oh, I acknowledge it's a problem: it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. The game assumes a humanoid perspective, with hands. Cut off a wizard's hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. Stick a synthesist in a living bodysuit that doesn't have arms or hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. The polymorph spell category tells you that you can't cast somatic spells if your new form doesn't have suitable limbs for it. Even a druid can't automatically cast spells in wild shape, why should the summoner get it for free? If you want to cast spells while fused, give your eidolon hands or take Still Spell, the mechanics for it are already in the game. Don't complain that there's caffeine in your coffee if you have the choice of ordering decaffeinated coffee.

Wait. What? Serpentine and quadruped synthesists can't cast spells? Yet another sythesist tax!?

Aren't you breaking your own rules saying that?

I just figured that since a synthesist could use his material components despite them being inside the eidolon shell that he could similarly make the somatic gestures required for his spells. This also makes sense as the rules clearly state:

"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear."

Not being able to cast spells goes directly against that statement. That either means your statement is wrong, or you need yet another FAQ/errata clarification for this mess.

In existing FAQ entries you yourself said that a synthesist could attack with his own natural weapons, the eidolons, or a mixture of the two. This ALSO seems to imply that the synthesist can move his own arms and limbs independently of those of the eidolon shell (but still sharing the same limited actions each round).

Your own FAQ entry contradicts itself in a number of places, namely on whether or not the synthesist can extend his limbs outside the shell. If he can't, then how can he possibly use his own natural attacks, say in the case of a tengu synthesist, or a multiclass synthesist/abyssal sorcerer?

So which is it? You say one thing, but the rules read differently in several places.

Needless to say, this leads to unnecessary confusion.


Artanthos wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:


The simplest way to handle it is to not let curatives affect the synthesist's temp hp (because curatives ignore temp hp in every other part of the game).

The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.

As such, anything that would heal normal hit points would work on the synthesist.

This. It would eliminate 44% of your rules (one of which is wrong, BTW).

Contributor

Ravingdork, read the FAQ entries on the synthesist.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.
So the synthesist is at full power even when he has 1 hit point? Synth with 40 hp and 60 eidolon hp takes 99 points of damage, and he's still running around in his synthesist suit?

Uh, hate to break it to you, Sean, but that happens even with temporary hit points, except that the break point is 98 points of damage rather than 99 (1 real hp, 1 temp hp).

Also, clearly he intended the same "eidolons hp = 0 = dismissed" rule to stay. If you're going to blast us for treating the unsaid as unsaid and causing confusion thereby, perhaps you should apply a little self-flagellation, eh?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.
So the synthesist is at full power even when he has 1 hit point? Synth with 40 hp and 60 eidolon hp takes 99 points of damage, and he's still running around in his synthesist suit?

A synthesist can do this already at 1st level thanks to Fused Link. EDIT: Ninja'd by 3 seconds.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Ravingdork, read the FAQ entries on the synthesist.

I did a number of times (a necessity as it kept changing). I found it, as well as the syntehsist archetype, to be full of contradictions in need of clearing up.

The only thing I seem to have been confused on is the material component bit (not really sure what I was thinking of there). The rest of my post is perfectly valid.

Scarab Sages

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
The simplest way to handle it would be a rule change. Hit points from a fused Eidolon are no longer temporary hp but regular hp added to the synthesist's total. These hit points are lost first and do not heal over time.
So the synthesist is at full power even when he has 1 hit point? Synth with 40 hp and 60 eidolon hp takes 99 points of damage, and he's still running around in his synthesist suit?

He's currently at full power with 2 hit points. 1 on the eidolon and 1 on the summoner.

Since I can burn my own hit points to keep the fused eidolon from dropping to 0, your only making a 1 hp change.

Contributor

Fozbek wrote:
Uh, hate to break it to you, Sean, but that happens even with temporary hit points, except that the break point is 98 points of damage rather than 99 (1 real hp, 1 temp hp).

Fair enough.

Fozbek wrote:
Also, clearly he intended the same "eidolons hp = 0 = dismissed" rule to stay. If you're going to blast us for treating the unsaid as unsaid and causing confusion thereby, perhaps you should apply a little self-flagellation, eh?

I'm not sure what you mean by "he intended the same "eidolons hp = 0 = dismissed" rule to stay."


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "he intended the same "eidolons hp = 0 = dismissed" rule to stay."

The only way I could interpret your post as making sense is if:

1. You didn't realize Fused Link exists or weren't accounting for it, and
2. You thought Artanthos meant that the eidolon wasn't dismissed until the total fused entity's hit points reached zero.

I simply assumed (as seemed obvious to me) that Artanthos intended the eidolon's hit points to be damaged first (as he wrote) and that when those hit points were reduced to 0, the eidolon would be dismissed (which is how it currently works and thus wouldn't need to be reiterated, but which was left unsaid).

Also note that at 1 hit point, the fused entity is staggered, because the summoner has taken damage equal to his maximum hit points.

Contributor

Ravingdork wrote:
The only thing I seem to have been confused on is the material component bit (not really sure what I was thinking of there). The rest of my post is perfectly valid.

This FAQ says "If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms...."

Ravingdork wrote:
This ALSO seems to imply that the synthesist can move his own arms and limbs independently of those of the eidolon shell (but still sharing the same limited actions each round).

From the very same FAQ item: "(Note: It is a matter of flavor and player's preference whether the synthesist floats immobile within the eidolon-suit and its limbs move at his mental command, if the synthesist moves his own arms and the eidolon-suit's arms echo this movement, or if the eidolon-suit is more form-fitting and the flesh-enveloping limbs move in direct response to the synthesist's own movements.)"

Contributor

Fozbek wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "he intended the same "eidolons hp = 0 = dismissed" rule to stay."

The only way I could interpret your post as making sense is if:

1. You didn't realize Fused Link exists or weren't accounting for it, and
2. You thought Artanthos meant that the eidolon wasn't dismissed until the total fused entity's hit points reached zero.

I simply assumed (as seemed obvious to me) that Artanthos intended the eidolon's hit points to be damaged first (as he wrote) and that when those hit points were reduced to 0, the eidolon would be dismissed (which is how it currently works and thus wouldn't need to be reiterated, but which was left unsaid).

Ah. (We were just talking about Jason, and I was just talking to Jason, so I thought you meant he = Jason, instead of he = Artanthos. My bad.)

1. I wasn't accounting for it.
2. But here's the thing: You're either tracking the eidolon's hp separately (as regular hp, temp hp, or something else entirely), or you aren't.

So, is the argument, "I'm willing to track these hit points separately, just like the archetype as written, just in case the eidolon is directly banished or I'm knocked unconscious, I just don't want to deal with this healing-temporary-hit-points problem, so can we just make them hit points instead of temporary hit points"?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The only thing I seem to have been confused on is the material component bit (not really sure what I was thinking of there). The rest of my post is perfectly valid.

This FAQ says "If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms...."

Ravingdork wrote:
This ALSO seems to imply that the synthesist can move his own arms and limbs independently of those of the eidolon shell (but still sharing the same limited actions each round).
From the very same FAQ item: "(Note: It is a matter of flavor and player's preference whether the synthesist floats immobile within the eidolon-suit and its limbs move at his mental command, if the synthesist moves his own arms and the eidolon-suit's arms echo this movement, or if the eidolon-suit is more form-fitting and the flesh-enveloping limbs move in direct response to the synthesist's own movements.)"

Yes, but that still doesn't answer my question: Knowing that, how is it also possible for the synthesist to use HIS OWN natural weapons (which are almost always on the end of limbs)?

A barbarian/synthesist with a bite and/or claw attacks is not at all hard to imagine. Your FAQ says that such a character could use his natural attacks, those of the eidolons, or both (up to the eidolon's limit). Not but one or two sentences later, it goes on to say he can't use his limbs.

How is that not a contradiction?

(I AM upset at not being able to cast spells in some forms, but your RAI stance does seem clear in that regard.)


Except that the temp hp thing creates logical loopholes and causes all kinds of additional FAQ entries, and the real hp thing doesn't.

Like I said, I'm trying to get the rules profile of this archetype simplified. I don't think the "healing-temporary-hit-points problem" is a big deal; the big deal is that the synthesist has like 10 rules exceptions and muddy FAQs on top of the rules exceptions for the normal summoner.

Scarab Sages

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oh, I acknowledge it's a problem: it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. The game assumes a humanoid perspective, with hands. Cut off a wizard's hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. Stick a synthesist in a living bodysuit that doesn't have arms or hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. The polymorph spell category tells you that you can't cast somatic spells if your new form doesn't have suitable limbs for it. Even a druid can't automatically cast spells in wild shape, why should the summoner get it for free? If you want to cast spells while fused, give your eidolon hands or take Still Spell, the mechanics for it are already in the game. Don't complain that there's caffeine in your coffee if you have the choice of ordering decaffeinated coffee.

This part I fully agree with.

You have no hands, you can't use somatic components or hold items. It's a physical limitation, not a class based limitation.

In exchange, your gaining access to some pretty powerful evolutions that you would not otherwise have access. A 2 evolution "tax" in exchange for access to pounce is still not a bad deal. If the hit point issue gets fixed, I can all but guarantee it will be a cost many will choose to accept.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Fozbek wrote:

Except that the temp hp thing creates logical loopholes and causes all kinds of additional FAQ entries, and the real hp thing doesn't.

Like I said, I'm trying to get the rules profile of this archetype simplified. I don't think the "healing-temporary-hit-points problem" is a big deal; the big deal is that the synthesist has like 10 rules exceptions and muddy FAQs on top of the rules exceptions for the normal summoner.

Agreed.

Contributor

Ravingdork wrote:
Yes, but that still doesn't answer my question: Knowing that, how is it also possible for the synthesist to use HIS OWN natural weapons (which are almost always on the end of limbs)?

Yep, it's weird. From what I recall of the discussion, it's there for (1) synthesists who want to wield a weapon in the eidolon's hand, or (2) synthesists who have natural attacks, probably unarmed strikes, and want to make those attacks using the eidolon's limbs, because their natural attack damage is higher than the eidolon's base damage for that limb. I, too, think it would be weird for a lizardfolk (who has claws and a bite) to make claw and bite attacks while inside a humanlike eidolon (unarmed strikes would be OK), but we've had enough cries of "you're nerfing my options" for this archetype that I suppose we threw them a bone. Note that the eidolon has to have enough limbs to account for the natural attacks being used. No arms = no natural attacks. At no point are we suggesting that the synthesist is reaching OUT of the eidolon's body to make these attacks... he's using the limbs of the eidolon.

Scarab Sages

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


So, is the argument, "I'm willing to track these hit points separately, just like the archetype as written, just in case the eidolon is directly banished or I'm knocked unconscious, I just don't want to deal with this healing-temporary-hit-points problem, so can we just make them hit points instead of temporary hit points"?

I have no issues tracking the hit points separately.

What I have an issue with is essentially being unhealable by any means except restore eidolon until I drop below 50% hp.

This creates circumstances such as being unaffected by positive energy while still taking damage from negative energy.

Contributor

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

2. But here's the thing: You're either tracking the eidolon's hp separately (as regular hp, temp hp, or something else entirely), or you aren't.

So, is the argument, "I'm willing to track these hit points separately, just like the archetype as written, just in case the eidolon is directly banished or I'm knocked unconscious, I just don't want to deal with this healing-temporary-hit-points problem, so can we just make them hit points instead of temporary hit points"?

I'd like to hear Fozbek's response, too.


Fozbek wrote:

Except that the temp hp thing creates logical loopholes and causes all kinds of additional FAQ entries, and the real hp thing doesn't.

Like I said, I'm trying to get the rules profile of this archetype simplified. I don't think the "healing-temporary-hit-points problem" is a big deal; the big deal is that the synthesist has like 10 rules exceptions and muddy FAQs on top of the rules exceptions for the normal summoner.

EDIT: That is to say, no, my argument has nothing inherently to do with the "temp hp healing problem". My argument is about streamlining the rules. Normal hit points are simply much more elegant and streamlined in this situation; they cause far fewer rules questions.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Yes, but that still doesn't answer my question: Knowing that, how is it also possible for the synthesist to use HIS OWN natural weapons (which are almost always on the end of limbs)?
Yep, it's weird. From what I recall of the discussion, it's there for (1) synthesists who want to wield a weapon in the eidolon's hand, or (2) synthesists who have natural attacks, probably unarmed strikes, and want to make those attacks using the eidolon's limbs, because their natural attack damage is higher than the eidolon's base damage for that limb. I, too, think it would be weird for a lizardfolk (who has claws and a bite) to make claw and bite attacks while inside a humanlike eidolon (unarmed strikes would be OK), but we've had enough cries of "you're nerfing my options" for this archetype that I suppose we threw them a bone. Note that the eidolon has to have enough limbs to account for the natural attacks being used. No arms = no natural attacks. At no point are we suggesting that the synthesist is reaching OUT of the eidolon's body to make these attacks... he's using the limbs of the eidolon.

That's...weird...

So if my character has natural attacks, it is assumed my eidolon can also make those SAME natural attacks PROVIDED he has the appropriate limbs for them (arms for claws, head for bite, etc.)?

What if my eidolon and I are different sizes? If I'm attacking with MY natural attacks, but my eidolon shell is huge, does my own natural attack get adjusted up two size categories for the purposes of damage? Or are they still treated as medium?

Trying to picture how this even works while INSIDE the shell is mind boggling. I guess the eidolon shell simply takes on some of the attributes of its controller?

Also, say I'm a tengu and have two natural claw attacks. I put on my eidolon shell, which is humanoid and ALSO has two claw attacks. Do I now have 4 claw attacks (provided it isn't over my maximum number of attacks) or only 2? This question assumes only two arm limbs.

Also, thank you SO much for your patience. I know I can be trying at times.


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So I`m not seeing the logical inconsistency with the Temp HPs...

The Rules wrote:
The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.
SKR wrote:

1. Eidolon has hit points.

2. When fused to the synthesist, the eidolon's hp become temp hp on the fused entity.
3. When those temp hp are gone, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.
Fozzy wrote:
Great. So now the eidolon's hit points are both hit points and temporary hit points at the same time. Further, since the eidolon is taking hit point damage, it can be healed of hit point damage (which would then restore the temporary hit points, since temp hp=current hp). The reasoning given in the FAQ entry for not being able to heal the eidolon is that it's only temporary hit points. This is clearly not so, by your own admission. Thus, the reasoning is faulty and needs to be re-thought.

This seems like just purposely trying not to communicate or understand. What did Sean write?

NOT THAT there exists HP and Temp HP at the same time... He wrote: the HP `become temp hp`.
They are transformed from one rule-set to another... In other words, the same `object` at DIFFERENT points in time is Temp HP and then regular HP.
Just like we can deal with a creature `becoming` insubstantial, we should be able to deal with HP becoming Temp HP.
When they are temp HPs, the relevant rules apply. When they are regular HP, the relevant rules apply.
Unless the Eidolon is summoned in a non-Fused form, the regular HP rules will not usually be used.
This doesn`t seem confusing to me. I agree some other parts of the Summoner and Synthesist in particular are confusing, which the FAQ has helped, but this case doesn`t seem that confusing if you know the differences between regular and Temp HP. If the Eidolon is fused, it`s HP become Temp HP applied to the Summoner.

----------------------------------

Re: the inconsistency with the Summoner`s `own` (normal) Natural Attacks being OK, but not using limbs for casting, if there`s some balance reason for it that`s great, but the support for it should be cleared up. Perhaps just that `the Fused Eidolon can mimic any Natural Attacks the Summoner already has, although each attack must be accounted for by a limb, head, or appropriate body part which corresponds to where the Natural Attack is located in the Summoner`s own body`. (UAS and Slams seem not to need a specific body part) That would be in-line with a ratinale that these are not the `exact same` Natural Weapons, but are just bonus effects granted to the Eidolon, based on synergy with the Summoner... I don`t know what repurcussion that has if the Summoner has additional special abilities, e.g. Poison linked to their own Bite attack, although if that is considered part of the `mimicked` attack, it would work. RD brought up a good point about the size difference... and what if they have some other Polymorph effect (giving Nat Weapons) before Summoning the Eidolon Suit? Would that be included?


Quandary wrote:

This seems like just purposely trying not to communicate or understand. What did Sean write?

NOT THAT there exists HP and Temp HP at the same time... He wrote: the HP `become temp hp`.
They are transformed from one rule-set to another... In other words, the same `object` at DIFFERENT points in time is Temp HP and then regular HP.
Just like we can deal with a creature `becoming` insubstantial, we should be able to deal with HP becoming Temp HP.
When they are temp HPs, the relevant rules apply. When they are regular HP, the relevant rules apply.
Unless the Eidolon is summoned in a non-Fused form, the regular HP rules will not usually be used.

If this is the case, then eidolons that reach 0 temp hp are permanently unsummoned--remember, eidolons only recover to 1/2 hp if they are slain. It also creates a problem where a living creature can be damaged but cannot be healed (except by a rules exception).


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So why did you decide to mis-represent what Sean wrote re: (allegedly) `being (regular) HP and Temp HP at the same time` instead of facing head on the `conflict` that has been sitting in the REGULAR Summoner rules all long: Summoned creatures can never really `die`, thus can`t be `slain` in the normal sense of the word?

Your `problem` re: non-symmetry of healing/damage seems a meta-issue that doesn`t prevent anybody from playing the class.
The rules work with the FAQs. There`s plenty of other non-symmetries, that`s pretty much the nature of this class.
`The living creature` no longer counts as a living creature when fused, e.g. for spells effecting X creatures or X HD of creatures,
it`s no longer an independent creature when fused, it`s just bonuses/swapped stats+abilities.

There`s enough other problems with the CORE rules, either functionality or presentation, that I would hope Paizo`s rules team can spend their time actually fixing those issues, not carrying on because somebody philosophically doesn`t like that not all HPs can be cured with equal ease. (apparently Paizo`s telling it`s free-lancers to avoid `attack action` because that`s so confusing, yet hasn`t issued real FAQ or Errata for that which was one of the earliest `confusing issues` about PRPG, re: vital strike, etc)

Contributor

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Normal hit points may be elegant and simple, and I like elegant and simple, but you have to look at it this way:

The summoner has d8 HD.
The eidolon has d10 HD.
The synthesist uses the eidolon's Con score.
All eidolon base forms start with Con 13.

So at minimum, a 1st-level synthesist has 8 hit points from his own 1d8 Hit Die, +1 from the eidolon's Con bonus, +5 (temporary) from the eidolon's 1d10 HD, and 1 (temporary) from the eidolon's Con bonus, for a total of 15 hp. By comparison, a barbarian with 13 Con has 13 hp and a fighter with 13 Con has 11 hp. Barbarian with 18 Con has 16 hp.

On average, a synthesist5 has 26 hit points from his own 5d8 Hit Die, +5 from the eidolon's Con bonus, +22 (temporary) from the eidolon's 4d10 HD, and +4 (temporary) from the eidolon's Con bonus, for a total of 57 hp. By comparison, a barbarian5 with 13 Con has 43 hp and a fighter5 with 13 Con has 37 hp. Bbn 18 Con = 58.

Level 10: Synthesist 48+10+44+8 = 110. Barbarian = 80. Fighter = 69. Bbn 18 Con = 110.

Level 15: Synthesist 71+15+66+12 = 164. Barbarian = 118. Fighter = 102. Bbn 18 Con = 163.

Level 20: Synthesist 93+20+82+15 = 210. Barbarian = 155. Fighter = 134. Bbn 18 Con = 215.

An average synthesist has basically the same hit points as an 18 Con barbarian of the same level. Stacking the eidolon's hp on the synthesist's hp is a HUGE advantage that makes the synthesist very hard to kill.

You can build a front-rank melee synthesist with as many hp as a barbarian, middle BAB, free natural armor, and other eidolon special abilities. Or you can build a ranged, caster-oriented synthesist with far more hp than any other summoner would have.

The archetype HAS to have a drawback relating to this advantage, or it's just more powerful and long-lasting than a regular summoner. Either you have a hard time curing those temporary hit points (and the summoner has a class spell that lets him do that), or you penalize the archetype in some other way relating to hit points, such as "the suit has its own set of hit points and it takes damage at the same rate as you taking damage." Neither solution is going to make everyone happy. The summoner is already a strong class, and being able to more than double your hit points (and customize your evolutions to make YOU even more powerful) is a really good option; you have to trade something for that.

(BTW, the "fused eidolon goes away when the temp hp reach 0" issue is easily fixed by saying "the eidolon is killed when the fused synthesist's temporary hp reach 0," as that kicks in all the normal rules for resummoning a dead eidolon and how many hp it should have. Which, in fact, I will note for errata.)


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


The archetype HAS to have a drawback relating to this advantage, or it's just more powerful and long-lasting than a regular summoner. Either you have a hard time curing those temporary hit points (and the summoner has a class spell that lets him do that)

Making it difficult to heal doesn't balance the class. It makes the class awkward to play. It doesn't actually make them weaker in any significant way. I can just use wands of lesser rejuvenate eidolon for my out of combat healing. But the fact that I need to buy special wands for myself is an extra piece of irritation in playing a class.


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Quandary wrote:
So why did you decide to mis-represent what Sean wrote

I didn't. The way things work now, what I said about synthesist eidolons having hit points that are simultaneously both real and temporary is true.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
The archetype HAS to have a drawback relating to this advantage, or it's just more powerful and long-lasting than a regular summoner.

I'm sorry, Synthesists are in no possible way stronger than regular summoners. They are far, far, FAR weaker. Extra hit points and a stronger melee chassis do not make up for having twice as many actions per round--especially when one set of those actions is an even stronger melee combatant than the synthesist--fewer feats, fewer skills, less versatile evolutions (have to have arms), and less versatile spells known (have to know rejuvenate eidolon).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:


An average synthesist has basically the same hit points as an 18 Con barbarian of the same level. Stacking the eidolon's hp on the synthesist's hp is a HUGE advantage that makes the synthesist very hard to kill.

BECAUSE they're able to dump their physical stats.

1. a summoner's hit points should be based on their OWN constitution, not the fused eidolon's constitution. Even 3.5 eventually wized up that doing that with druids was bad, and ruled that polymorphs didn't change base hit points.

2. the fused eidolon's hit points should be based on the summoner's constitution + a flat bonus based on the type of base form.

you're saying the archtype has to have a drawback, because you've already let it get broken-good in one area. if you balanced the physical stats in the first place, it would fix that, and you would be able to just track its hit points normally and not have to worry about temporary hit point nonsense.

summoner d8 w/ con 7 = 6 hp at first level. + 6hp from his eidolon.
barbarian w/ 14 con = 14 hp at first level.

it stops it from breaking as badly.


The more I think about it, the more I do agree that removing the stat swap would fix the entire archetype and allow the removal of all of these ugly, obstructionist rulings.

My proposed fix: only use the stat modifiers from base size and evolutions. Medium summoner with Medium eidolon? No bonus stats at all. M summoner with L eidolon? +8 strength, etc. Small summoner, M eidolon? +4 str, -2 Dex, +2 Con (ie, the inverse of the changes for a Small eidolon). Then do away with all the overly-complicated bull**** rules made to "balance" the fact that the synthesist can get absurdly high strength and con.

Contributor

Seraphimpunk wrote:
BECAUSE they're able to dump their physical stats.

Irrelevant. Even if you based the synthesist's hp on his own Con mod, dumping Con down to 7 (which is an incredibly stupid thing to do) is mitigated by the eidolon's hit points. Your own example of the Con 7 synthesist still has almost as many hit points as a Con 14 barbarian, and would maintain that parity as they leveled up. With even a 10 Con, that gets rid of the –2 penalty you've built into your example, and puts the synthesist at the same hp as a barbarian.

"Look, the synthesist has a Con mod -2 and the eidolon has a +1, that's a net of –1 Con mod, so it's totally okay that he has the same hp as the +2 Con mod fighter and almost as many as the +2 Con mod barbarian." False.

thepuregamer wrote:
Making it difficult to heal doesn't balance the class. It makes the class awkward to play. It doesn't actually make them weaker in any significant way. I can just use wands of lesser rejuvenate eidolon for my out of combat healing. But the fact that I need to buy special wands for myself is an extra piece of irritation in playing a class.

I guess the limited sorcerer spells known list and lack of archetypes is just an "irritation" as well?

BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.

+5


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


I guess the limited sorcerer spells known list and lack of archetypes is just an "irritation" as well?

BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.

Whatever thought process you need to follow to help you feel like you did a good job on this archetype... keep following it I guess.

You should probably drop that opinion into the titan mauler archetype threads.


Azten wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.
+5

+10. And vorpal

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
BECAUSE they're able to dump their physical stats.
Irrelevant.

Not irrelevant, when that 7 con, 7str, 7 dex is rewarded with a flat 13, 16, 12 replacement. The summoner can gain 12 points while a barbarian needs to spend 15 to get those numbers.

The barbarian can rage and raise con, and gets good hp every level.

And even with you holding back the synthesist, they remain broken. It doesn't stop the barbarian from having fewer hp, worse will saves, and no spells. All you do is make the synthesist awkward to play and a playground for exploiters.

Don't forget that the basic premise of Pathfinder is fixing what was wrong with 3.5. You did a lot more too, but you can't stop and look at this archetype and NOT see problems. You're just justifying it's flaws after the fact or there would have never needed to be an FAQ to heal them.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Is there an easy way for a foe to dismiss a Synthesist's eidolon, other than knocking the synthesist unconscious? Maybe a command "Dismiss your Eidolon"?

I ask because dropping your base Constitution down to 8 or so isn't really much of a disadvantage, if you never have that statistic in combat. A synthesist, suddenly bereft of his magic super suit in the middle of combat, is a fun role-playing opportunity.


Seraphimpunk wrote:


1. a summoner's hit points should be based on their OWN constitution, not the fused eidolon's constitution. Even 3.5 eventually wized up that doing that with druids was bad, and ruled that polymorphs didn't change base hit points.

Nope. They ruled Druid didn't use new forms con. Polymorph was never affected . Nope, not even than.

They instead invented new poymorph rules (that don't affect previous spells) like Displacer form, etc that use the new rules (Polymorph was grandfathered in so to speak).

But back to Summoner:
I wouldn't mind if you used 3.5 Wild Shaped last errata that used original form's Con not new forms.


Huh. Does a synthesist's eidolon count as adjacent for the purposes of effects that require it to be so (such as the Vigilant Eidolon feat)?


Azten wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.
+5

-10.

Bad design is bad design. It doesn't matter if there are alternatives.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
BTW, if a class or archetype irritates you, don't play it. Nobody is requiring you to play it. They're actually designed so they play differently, so they suit different people. That's why there are ninteen classes in the game, and dozens of archetypes.

3

I've yet to see these phantom people who both a) love the Synthesist archtype and b) tots support your rulings.

In fact, it seems people who liked - past tense - the class are rather irate!

"Well don' t play it" is a cop out. It's an excuse. Nothing more.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

"don't play it" is the cop out I used to get when I complained back in the day that rogues should be able to use sneak attack on undead and constructs.


I don't mean to offend either of you (please keep that in mind), but:

ProfessorCirno wrote:
In fact, it seems people who liked - past tense - the class are rather irate!

It seems to me that people that do enjoy the archetype (like me) are already satisfied with the interpretations provided by Sean in this thread and the official FAQ rulings and moved on.

I understand how you came to the conclusion above, but I think its a mistake to assume that the 4-5 posters still complaining here can account for the " people who liked the class".

Cartigan wrote:
Bad design is bad design. It doesn't matter if there are alternatives.

Bad in this case is only an opinion. I understand that you don't like the archetype as it is, but honestly with all the explanations given so far, it works well. Let's not pretend there is this single well defined standard that allows you (or anyone, including me) to judge this exempt of personal preferences.

@ Cirno, Cartigan, Seraphimpunk and Ravingdork: What would you personally change in the synthesist if you were the sole person responsible for "fixing it"?


Ral' Yareth wrote:


Bad in this case is only an opinion.

So claimed, but it is in fact demonstrable. The Synthesist's Eidolon replaces the Summoner's physical stats whenever fused. That mechanic was the reason the polymorph subschool was COMPLETELY overhauled. Are you telling me reinstituting a mechanic they obviously spent a good deal of time and effort on reworking is not bad design?

Quote:
I understand that you don't like the archetype as it is, but honestly with all the explanations given so far, it works well.

No, it really doesn't.

Quote:

@ Cirno, Cartigan, Seraphimpunk and Ravingdork: What would you personally change in the synthesist if you were the sole person responsible for "fixing it"?

I already did.

Add "This DR can stack with any other DR but does not otherwise change DR stacking rules." to that while I am thinking about it.

Add "Remove the ruling that a Synthesist with an Eidolon without the hands evolution can't cast spells."


The only drawback to Cartigan's fix is spells ignore DR usually so you have less "endurance" compared to the wierd Temp hp version we have now.

But it is simpler and less wordy version so it gets points for that.

Otherwise, I like it.
Might give it as a option if I ever DM:
1) they can take the can't cast with arms, Eidiolon hp that can't be healed normally, and these are Temp version
or
2) the Simpler DR version (spells can ignore).

For a new player #2 is better. For a person willing to go with exceptions #1 is fine if unintuitive (main issue people have with synthesist, so unintuitive and exception based).

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