One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

451 to 500 of 976 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>
Contributor

Caedwyr wrote:
Moving on, are you saying the portion of the 3.5 polymorph rules where physical stats of the polymorphed form replaced the physical stats of the <druid> or <wizard> did not cause problems and should not have been changed?

As a player of a synthesist, all that need concern me is the rules stated in the character class's writeup. The interplay between the synthesist's stated rules and its implications with an entirely different ruleset concerning the polymorph spell, or the historical differences of said ruleset between editions? Not so much. Everything you need is right there in the class writeup.

As a game designer, though, sure it interests me, and don't interpret my message as trying to shut down discourse on it or anything. My point is that a player can play a perfectly healthy and happy summoner totally ignorant of the fact that it is inconsistent with the design choice of a subset of spells or previous edition rules, and totally unaware of some of the expressed rules concerns that might not actually occur in real gameplay or character creation.

Contributor

SeraphimPunk -I totally understand your PFS concerns. Totally valid. I can't fault you for wanting to be prepared, but I guess I see the black hole of rules questions that can result from wanting to have all your bases covered. But hell -what else are we going to talk about on themessageboards while we slack off at work, right? =-)

This is going to open up a can of worms, but why not??

James Jacobs had a few things to say in one of Ravingdork's thread about blink dog sorcerers, which questioned how in the world a blink dog, with paws, and no hands, could possibly cast spells. James' post on the matter can be found here, with further clarifications further on down the page. Maybe that'll help you out a little?

Have fun with that thread. =-)

As for developer clarifications, they've already put a lot of work into many clarifications for this archetype. If there is a glaring hole, one would hope they revisit it, but this thing is a drop in the bucket compared to new product development, other class concerns, and other FAQ issues for multiple books. We can sit around all day with this class and others trying to paint it into hypothetical corners, but I somehow doubt that they'll be reserving their energy for addressing comparisons with the polymorph spell between two rules editions when, the class as written, even if it differs from that rule subset, works. For those who see potential for abuse, I refer them to thepuregamer's post, above.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The intent seems pretty clear to me that a synthesist can cast somatic spells even without arms whilst transformed into his eidolon. The text even goes so far as to state that "while fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear."

I picture the synthesist waving his (original) arms around while inside the giant jelly bean monster. Problem solved.


Brandon Hodge wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
So you can dump the physical stats, crank the mental stats and still end up as a combat monster with high stats in pretty much everything.

Sure, you can, but are you? Is there a player at your table breaking your game by doing this? Is you GM fed up with your PC because you're pulling these shenanigans? Or is it just mock indignation at the possibility that someone, somewhere, might be taking advantage of a rule or class feature as written? If that's the case, let's just toss these rulebooks and play rock-paper-scissors. That's balanced, right? =-)

You realize that Paizo SPECIFICALLY updated the ENTIRE SYSTEM of polymorphing to remove the "you don't need physical scores" imbalance? Then they go and reintroduce it here? Do the guys over there just not talk to each other when adding stuff to the game?

Contributor

Oh no...Cartigan and Ravingdork together, with no other posters in sight? I'm doomed. =-)

Yessir, I do understand the rule system shift on polymorph. I totally get that. And I understand why it was undertaken.

But that doesn't mean that 3.5 throwback rules, as presented in the synthesist class, break anything else, especially as they are treated as isolated in and of themselves. The rules that specifically apply to the synthesist class don't alter anything outside of that class, and whether those rules and their applications to summoners are broken themselves...well, that's up for debate, isn't it? Personally, I think thepuregamer's example of the consequences of hardcore min/maxing and gaming the system, so to speak, are solid enough evidence of the disservice you'd be doing to yourself should you run a character that tries to exploit it.

I'm debating this from the perspective of a player who has been running a synthesist weekly since April, and I'm just not seeing the massive hangups this thread and others present. And we play RAW, without house rules, but that isn't to say that calls don't have to be made. But in any case, coming up with hypothetical corner cases might serve the purpose of covering some PFS bases that might spring up, but I just don't get some of the rancor from folks who aren't even playing the class or having problems with it at the game table.

And just for the record, I'm an adventure and setting jock for Paizo, not a rules author. That isn't to say that I'm incapable of rules construction (because I've written my fair share), but they keep me busy with other aspects of the game, so while I have some Bestiary credits, I was not involved with Core, UM, APG, or UC, so I can't address your communication queries, though I will say it is typically quite great with my developers, and I'd expect the same with the hardcover line.


Brandon Hodge wrote:

Oh no...Cartigan and Ravingdork together, with no other posters in sight? I'm doomed. =-)

Yessir, I do understand the rule system shift on polymorph. I totally get that. And I understand why it was undertaken.

But that doesn't mean that 3.5 throwback rules, as presented in the synthesist class, break anything else,

Other than the premise of Pathfinder.

Contributor

Cartigan wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:

Oh no...Cartigan and Ravingdork together, with no other posters in sight? I'm doomed. =-)

Yessir, I do understand the rule system shift on polymorph. I totally get that. And I understand why it was undertaken.

But that doesn't mean that 3.5 throwback rules, as presented in the synthesist class, break anything else,

Other than the premise of Pathfinder.

So the premise of the entire rules system rests upon Pathfinder's changes to polymorph magic?

Here's a great example about why this argument puzzles me:

In the conversion from 3.5 to Pathfinder, the Cleave feat changed. This affected a lot of things, in the same was that changes to polymorph reached across classes and rules systems.

But lo and behold, along comes Ultimate Combat, and we have Cleaving Finish, which is a total throwback to the previous rule incarnation.

So, does a fighter taking that feat and using it the way its 3.5 incarnation worked, break the game? Does it make the character broken? Does it break the design premise of Pathfinder, because they used a perfectly servicable way of doing things from the previous edition?

It doesn't. They can exist side-by-side. Polymorph can still work the way it does, as can druids and everything else. And synthesists can work the way they do, and that's OK as long as they work. In my experience, they do.


Brandon Hodge wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:

Oh no...Cartigan and Ravingdork together, with no other posters in sight? I'm doomed. =-)

Yessir, I do understand the rule system shift on polymorph. I totally get that. And I understand why it was undertaken.

But that doesn't mean that 3.5 throwback rules, as presented in the synthesist class, break anything else,

Other than the premise of Pathfinder.

So the premise of the entire rules system rests upon Pathfinder's changes to polymorph magic?

Here's a great example about why this argument puzzles me:

In the conversion from 3.5 to Pathfinder, the Cleave feat changed. This affected a lot of things, in the same was that changes to polymorph reached across classes and rules systems.

But lo and behold, along comes Ultimate Combat, and we have Cleaving Finish, which is a total throwback to the previous rule incarnation.

So, does a fighter taking that feat and using it the way its 3.5 incarnation worked, break the game? Does it make the character broken? Does it break the design premise of Pathfinder, because they used a perfectly servicable way of doing things from the previous edition?

It doesn't. They can exist side-by-side. Polymorph can still work the way it does, as can druids and everything else. And synthesists can work the way they do, and that's OK as long as they work. In my experience, they do.

I meant to say philosophy. Yes, I would have considered it against the philosophy of Pathfinder to repeat the same mistakes as 3.5. But it looks like that is the direction they are steering it.

Sovereign Court

Hi

Just a quick question on Feats. (Sorry if it's alerady been posted - just takes too long looking through hundred plus messages. Really needs errata)!

Since the Eidolon uses the Synthesist's Feats, does this include Toughness? Ie. The Eidolon ALSO gains extra HP?

Thanks
Paul H

Contributor

PaulH wrote:
Since the Eidolon uses the Synthesist's Feats, does this include Toughness? Ie. The Eidolon ALSO gains extra HP?

A fused synthesist can't double dip into the Toughness feat. One a basic level, the eidolon can't exist unless fused with the summoner, and doesn't use the synthesist's feats as you describe, because it isn't a separate creature. Rather, think of this as the "power suit" analogy: they become one creature, and that creature (the summoner/eidolon combo) is the one using the feats learned by the summoner, who has already received the hit point benefit of Toughness.

This is further bolstered by the fact that the eidolon only grants temporary hit points while fused to the synthesist, and I can't imagine that the fused summoner, already benefiting from the hit points of the Toughness feat, is granted any additional hit points when combined with his eidolon. Because he isn't granted additional hit dice...only temporary hit points. Even if those hit points are calculated using the eidolon's hit dice, the use of the feat can't come into play due to the nature of the Fused Edilon ability.

Does that help?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yeah i can't see toughness giving the eidolon any extra hp.
your character takes the feat, he gets the benefit. He gets hp when he's not fused, and when he is fused. he gets the benefit. and it doesn't apply twice. the eidolon is kind of like a vermin / construct for synthesists, since its an object/ unintelligent, it doesn't get its own skills/feats.

for my own synthesist waiting in the wings. i'm thinking gnome or dwarf. and i like the entry in the APG for dwarf summoners, that their eidolons often take the appearance of constructs or earth elementals. I think my gnome's suit will look a bit like a battle-robot suit with my gnome as the pilot. goggles and all =)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

wow. i missed the bit about how hard it is to heal a synthesist until someone played one in a game this week in PFS.

the player is under the asumption that rejuvinate eidolon would work on himself while fused, and to heal the eidolon.

I'm having problems wrapping my head around the healing at all, because you're one creature, so you cant target the spell to the eidolon or your summoner, it effects you both, similarly to how casting enlarge person brings up a problem for synthesists.

The faq implies that you can target the eidolon for healing, or that the spell only heals temporary hit points for synthesist summoners according to another poster's interpretation on the boards.

I'm not satisfied with the FAQ or the responses i got so far, so i'm posting here.

why can't healing work on the summoner and the eidolon? it has hit points. you can heal those hit points. you just treat those hp as temporary hp: removing them first. otherwise clerics and EVERY other healer can't heal it, because the Rejuvinate spells are the ONLY spells that specifically target eidolons. suddenly the cleric's channelled energy is useless to heal the synthesist when only the eidolon is damaged. It has a con score, you should be able to heal it. not being able to heal it is a huge huge downside.

not only that but the FAQ refers to Rejuvinate Eidolon as more synthesist tax!

I for one want to see tax free synthesists before i roll one myself. i one shotted the player at my table with a critical hit. from full to neg in one shot, slicing right through the eidolon and cutting him down too.

Aside from the problem i have with the character's hp being different when fused and when not ( are they treated like a barbarian's bonus hp while raging ? or like temp hp? )

synthesist and hp should work more like what they are, and less like what they've been labelled as in game terms. your eidolon becomes a suit that you hide in, and because of that, it doesn't get sentience, and it doesn't get skills/feats of its own. but to simulate that its a shell, the description states that its hit points are applied to the summoner as temporary hit points. This causes a bunch of problems with healing and interaction with fast healing abilities and more. A standard eidolon with fast healing *dah dah* gets to heal, fast. suddenly when its fused, it can't repair itself with fast healing, and only applies to the summoner!? (dumb).

rewriting it to be more like: "the eidolon's hit points are added to the summoner's hit points. these points are removed first when the summoner is damaged. when the summoner takes enough damage to cross into his own reservoir of hit points, the eidolon is banished and cannot be re summoned for 24 hours." would allow fast healing to work, would solve questions about applying healing, would really be a better simulation of "fused body/one being", and wouldn't require a separate application/interpretation/FAQ for how to heal your eidolon.


No offense to the designers, i really like the original concept but it seems to be limited more and more to avoid a preconceived form of munchkin that doesn't yet exist.

Meanwhile druids are transforming into huge tigers and pouncing with their dire tiger companions, eating faces with 9 levels of spell casting.

Maybe there will be a druid animal companion heal tax. ;)


I just started playing Pathfinder and my first character is a synthesist. I've been monitoring this thread, and the faq, to answer questions I've had. So far everything is pretty good, pretty logical. I won't claim to be able to comment on arcane or theoretical scenarios but, I do have a comment regarding healing.

I was ok with having the rejuvenate eidelon spell be a sort of "tax" for playing a synthesist. But, with the recent stuff about not being able to cast w/o your eidelon having hands, I think something else should be done.

The casting scenario makes sense to me. No hands, no spells needing gestures. But, it seems harsh that not only can you not cast spells in eidelon form if you choose something other than bipedal, without an evolution "tax" to create a set of arms, but you can't even HEAL the eidelon. So, I think either the ruling about the casting should be changed, or the official healing ruling should use an idea someone earlier posted about. Since the eidelon's HP are applied as temporary HP, the eidelon's actual HP is never touched. Therefor, when you release and resummon the eidelon, the temp HP is returned at full. Thereby negating the need to heal the eidelon. Yes, not practical in the middle of a battle to drop and re-summon, but you can heal after every battle.

I understand how this might seem over powered, and maybe it is. That's for wiser and more experienced heads than mine to decide. But, you lose quite a bit as a synthesist. Seperate attacks, extra feats, extra skills..

Just my, rambling, 2 cents worth.


<rant>
Healing:
When an eidolons attributes are damaged (which do not heal naturally btw), any cleric can heal it with a lesser restoration. This uses a party resource. Now we look at eidolon "temporary" hp healing. Only the synthesist himself can heal it with his own spells. This doesn't seem right. It's not only a spell slot tax but also a spells known tax. Also at around level 3 it becomes viable to kill your eidolon yourself to heal it half its hp before you heal it the rest of the way with your own spells. If clerics are able to heal the "extra" hp (which would only be healed after the summoner has been completely healed) all these problems would go away. Healing would once again be a party resource. It would also mean fast healing would work for the fused eidolon. Amazing.
</rant>

If this is too powerful the non-bipedal eidolons, (you know the ones that get pounce and constrict respectively) still have an arms tax. They have a right to bare them. (As opposed to bear, which is an animal.)


Rocky Williams 530 wrote:


The casting scenario makes sense to me. No hands, no spells needing gestures. But, it seems harsh that not only can you not cast spells in eidelon form if you choose something other than bipedal, without an evolution "tax" to create a set of arms, but you can't even HEAL the eidelon. So, I think either the ruling about the casting should be changed, or the official healing ruling should use an idea someone earlier posted about. Since the eidelon's HP are applied as temporary HP, the eidelon's actual HP is never touched. Therefor, when you release and resummon the eidelon, the temp HP is returned at full. Thereby negating the need to heal the eidelon. Yes, not practical in the middle of a battle to drop and re-summon, but you can heal after every battle.

+1

Though, I thought eidolon kept its hp damage between summonings. If it magically returns to full hp then I have no problem with any of these rulings since you can spend a minute after combat and get back a fully healed eidolon (though attribute damage would remain as normal). this would mean you wouldn't have to take any healing spells for your fused eidolon unless you want to heal it during combat.

So in summary here is a couple of questions (related and unrelated)
1) During combat, my fused-eidelon-synthesist took some temp hp damage. When I resummon the eidolon does it have full temp hp or does it have the same amount from when it was last summoned?
2) Synethesist does not use the base speed of the fused eidolon but his own base speed. Which would mean if a half elf (base speed 30ft) is fused with an eidolon that has the limbs (legs) evolution, his speed increases by 10ft to 40ft. Is this correct?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:


A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day.

you can kill your eidolon. but you can't summon him back until the next day. and when you do summon him the next day, he's at 1/2 hp.

opinion: something needs to be done so that the hp granted by the eidolon mesh better with the hp of the summoner in a party environment.

summoner's hp eidolon's hp
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxeeeeeeeeeee

vs.
summoner's hp
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
temp hp
eeeeeeeeee

as long as its clear they're one creature, and the hp pool is one pool, then regular healing works as it does with a standard summoned eidolon, fast healing works, rejuvinate eidolon allows you to heal damage on your fused self. you still lose out on having a pet that can drop to negative con before disappearing. and you still lose out on separate feats and skills and saves.

Sovereign Court

Hi

Actually you can resummon your Eidolon - 2nd Lvl Spell called "Summon Eidolon".

It's only temporary, but can be augmented. (Augment Summoning feat, etc).

There's also a feat that allows a second summoning/day, with some bonuses.
(I'll check the books & edit this post later with the details).

Back to the books...
Thanks
Paul H

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are no spells in the game that restore your temporary hit points to an earlier value. If you cast aid on someone and give them 5 temporary hit points, and they lose 4 of those temporary hit points, you can't just cast cure light wounds to restore those temporary hit points back up to 5. If you did, you'd have to rule whether excess points spill over to real hit points, whether you should cure regular hit points before getting to temporary hit points, if you get double benefit from certain curative effects like channeled positive energy, and so on.

The simplest way to handle it is to not let curatives affect the synthesist's temp hp (because curatives ignore temp hp in every other part of the game). Now, I'd be willing to houserule that any effect that gives a fused synthesist temporary hit points (such as aid or false life can instead be used to "heal" lost temporary hit points from the eidolon, but the main ruling stands because we don't want to open a flood of questions and additional rulings about new, weird interactions between cures and temporary hp.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

okays, you re-summon him via the spell. he's still not fully healed, and he's only there temporarily =/. it still only comes back half-healed.

its still a must have spell for synthesists as well. so they can "suit up" if they get attacked during their sleep cycle.

a must have feat for synthesists: resilient eidolon. so the suit doesn't disappear if the summoner is knocked out /sleep/ etc.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
but the main ruling stands because we don't want to open a flood of questions and additional rulings about new, weird interactions between cures and temporary hp.

That shark was jumped when you made the Synthesist.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:


The simplest way to handle it is to not let curatives affect the synthesist's temp hp (because curatives ignore temp hp in every other part of the game). Now, I'd be willing to houserule that any effect that gives a fused synthesist temporary hit points (such as aid or false life can instead be used to "heal" lost temporary hit points from the eidolon, but the main ruling stands because we don't want to open a flood of questions and additional rulings about new, weird interactions between cures and temporary hp.

don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed. <-- points at xxx diagram a few posts back. the synthesist's extra hit points need to work as an extension of his own hit points if he's one creature. when all of those bonus hit points are depleted, the suit is banished.

i'm not trying to argue that the game needs a way to heal temporary hit points. I'm saying the problem is healing the synthesist is way too complicated. that needs fixing.

You're taking a healable pet feature, and making it into armor, and in the process you labelled it with a game feature that can't be repaired by any other means in the game currently. so you FAQed one line of spells to continue to heal the suit by replenishing its temporary hit points, instead of stepping back and talking about the bigger problem: should they be temporary hit points in the first place? making them temp caused bad interactions with a lot of other game rules, from healing, channel, to eidolon evolutions like fast healing.

Contributor

Seraphimpunk wrote:
why can't healing work on the summoner and the eidolon? it has hit points. you can heal those hit points. you just treat those hp as temporary hp:

No, you don't treat them as temporary hit points, they are temporary hit points:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Starting at 1st level, the synthesist forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner's temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.

The game doesn't let you cure damage to temporary hit points. The rejuvenate eidolon ruling is a specific exception to that for this class because having a stack of temporary hit points is a default class feature of the synthesist.

Contributor

Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.

Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
why can't healing work on the summoner and the eidolon? it has hit points. you can heal those hit points. you just treat those hp as temporary hp:
No, you don't treat them as temporary hit points, they are temporary hit points:

This strikes me as circular.

How about making the Synthesist Eidolon a living item. An item can both be damaged and healed. To damage the Summoner, the Eidolon must be destroyed (reduced to 0 hit points). Like Stoneskin granting DR infinity/- until it reaches the max hit point limit.

Quote:
The game doesn't let you cure damage to temporary hit points. The rejuvenate eidolon ruling is a specific exception to that for this class because having a stack of temporary hit points is a default class feature of the synthesist.

And because if you hadn't, the whole thing is even more confusing.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
why can't healing work on the summoner and the eidolon? it has hit points. you can heal those hit points. you just treat those hp as temporary hp:

No, you don't treat them as temporary hit points, they are temporary hit points:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Quote:
the synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points

a great man once said, if it has a con score. its a live. and can be healed.

an eidolon is a living creature, with a con score. the quote you referenced says it has hit points. those hit points are treated as temporary hit points for the summoner. that doesn't change how those points are calculated: as hit points, based on the eidolons constitution and hit dice. Not as a construct, based on size and hit dice.

its living, and it should be less complicated to heal than ONLY EVER by a summoner with a rejuvinate eidolon spell, which they must sacrifice from their limited spells known. a cleric can't heal them, an eidolon can't heal itself.

take a step back and think about the problem, how you want it to work. if it needs different wording in the summary to specify that the creature's hit points are reduced first, that doesn't create a new type of hit points, it just directs you on how to remove/heal those hit points. it would be less complicated than the current FAQ.

Anyone who has been playing a synthesist in a home game for months want to chime in? did your group need to house rule healing the eidolon so that the cleric could heal them? or did you get by on 1d10+5, 2d10+10 and 3d10+15 healings?

Contributor

Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."

Though you make it sound excessively more wordy than it needs to be, Sean, it still seems simpler than the existing setup.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.

yeah, it may be obvious that they are "temporary hit points". It may be obvious how "temporary hit points work". But that does not mean that it is terribly intelligent design that they are "temporary hit points" and thus suffer major restrictions on healing. Congratulations on making the archetype annoying to use. Don't worry though, most people will do the right thing for you and just house rule the archetype until it works.


Ravingdork wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
don't call them temporary hit points then. change the synthesist write up, remove temporary hit points and add wording to the effect that the eidolon's hit points are removed first when damaged, and added last when healed.
Then you're creating an entirely new category of points, "hit points that I have to track separately from my own hit points because when they're gone my eidolon is gone, and these hit points go away first just like temporary hit points, and they go away if the eidolon is banished or if I am unconscious, but these aren't temporary hit points so I don't have any information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points."
Though you make it sound excessively more wordy than it needs to be, Sean, it still seems simpler than the existing setup.

And it's not like stuff like that doesn't exist anyway.

Sundering? Keep track of your item hit points!
Stoneskin? Keep track of how much damage has been prevented by Stoneskin!

And isn't it Sean, or someone's, job to write the "information on how these interact with the rules for hit points or temporary hit points." I mean, isn't that LITERALLY the developers' job - writing information about how new thing X they made up works with things W, Y, and Z?

"A Synthesist's Eidolon provides DR equal to the amount of hit points it has when an attack is made. When the Synthesist's Eidolon blocks damage in this manner, the amount of damage blocked is subtracted from its remaining hit points. When the Synthesist's Eidolon reaches 0 hit points, it returns to its home realm as per normal Eidolon rules. Any damage done in excess of the Synthesist's Eidolon's remaining hit point is done to the Synthesist.

This DR is only active when the Synthesist and his Eidolon are fused.
This DR cannot be bypassed for any reason (such as by a Lantern Archon's Light Ray or a Paladin's Smite Evil)"

The only problem making it work like Stoneskin is that you can't actually target the Eidolon to heal it directly.

There, I fixed the Synthesist's ridiculous temp HP rules (or at least provided a reasonable attempt at it). Let's all go play it.

EDIT: For healing, any area of effect heal restores both Synthesist and Eidolon hit points for the indicated amount. When affected by a targeted heal that can affect either the Synthesist or the Eidolon, the Synthesist regains hit point as normal. If any healing is imbued upon the Synthesist in excess of his max hit points, the Eidolon's hit points are restored for the excess amount.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Can a Synthesist drink a potion of restore eidolon? Does it have the desired effect?

Contributor

Chris Mortika wrote:
Can a Synthesist drink a potion of restore eidolon?

I don't see why not.

Chris Mortika wrote:
Does it have the desired effect?

It should. There's nothing saying that the synthesist has to be the one casting the spell (frex, another summoner, even a non-synthesist, could cast it on the fused synthesist) for it to heal the eidolon.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.

Cool. So they're temp hit points. That means that the Eidolon's true hit points are never touched (outside of the high level feature to split it off to its own entity). That means the Synthesist can re-summon them after every fight, assuming they have the minute to do so, and their temporary hp returns to their Eidolon's hit point value (which is maximum, because the Eidolon cannot be damaged). In fact, they can even do so if the temporary hit points were depleted, because the Eidolon's hit points never hit -Con and thus it didn't die.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.

i'm not the only one lobbying for the rule to be changed. i'm just articulating that even though they are temp hp for the summoner, they shouldn't be. it says what it says, if you want to be strict about it, go ahead. you're obviously not getting what i'm saying. but there is still a problem with it, whatever you want to choose to focus on.

you won't acknowledge that there's a problem with completely replacing the physical stats, and you won't provide a reasonable solution for healing. you won't acknowledge that there's a problem with spellcasting in nonhumanoid forms. so people will house rule it in a fashion that works. since you're only defending the archtype on the wording that's published, from a stance that they are written the way they're written and can't be changed from that, and interpreted as you see fit to interpret them.

Contributor

Fozbek wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.
Cool. So they're temp hit points. That means that the Eidolon's true hit points are never touched (outside of the high level feature to split it off to its own entity). That means the Synthesist returns to full temp hit points after every fight assuming they have 1 minute to re-summon the Eidolon.

I assume you reached this conclusion because the normal summoner ability says "When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned"?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk, if you can't see how the archetype tells you "The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points" and therefore these hit points are temporary hit points according to the game rules and not merely "treated as" temporary hit points, there's no further point in discussing this with you. The class says they're temp hp, so they're temp hp, regardless of their origin.
Cool. So they're temp hit points. That means that the Eidolon's true hit points are never touched (outside of the high level feature to split it off to its own entity). That means the Synthesist returns to full temp hit points after every fight assuming they have 1 minute to re-summon the Eidolon.
I assume you reached this conclusion because the normal summoner ability says "When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned"?

Correct. The Synthesist does not cover how to deal with Eidolon hit point loss (if there even is any--if they're temporary hit points, and the Eidolon goes away when the temp hp end, then its actual hp are never touched) upon being summoned, and the Fused Eidolon ability says "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability". Ergo, it treats hit points, death, and so on like the normal eidolon, except that it can't normally be hurt. Therefore, its hit points are full every time it's summoned, and, because it cannot be slain (again, barring Split Forms), it can be summoned as many times a day as the summoner wants, even if the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon are depleted.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seraphimpunk wrote:
i'm not the only one lobbying for the rule to be changed.

This isn't a vote, getting more people to want this changed doesn't make it a valid change.

We already have hit points and temporary hit points. We don't need a third category of hit points that act sort of like hit points and sort of like temporary hit points and need to be tracked separately.

Seraphimpunk wrote:
and you won't provide a reasonable solution for healing.

Healing for the synthesist is hard because playing a synthesist is a big advantage in terms of survivability compared to a regular summoner. If you have a regular summoner with 40 hp and an eidolon with 60 hp, you can completely negate the threat of both characters by dealing 40 points of damage to the summoner. If you have a synthesist with 40 hp and an eidolon with 60 hp, you have to deal 100 hp to the fused character to negate it. If that means the party needs a wand of rejuvenate eidolon to heal up the synthesist, them's the breaks.

Seraphimpunk wrote:
you won't acknowledge that there's a problem with spellcasting in nonhumanoid forms.

Oh, I acknowledge it's a problem: it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. The game assumes a humanoid perspective, with hands. Cut off a wizard's hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. Stick a synthesist in a living bodysuit that doesn't have arms or hands, surprise surprise, he can't cast somatic spells. The polymorph spell category tells you that you can't cast somatic spells if your new form doesn't have suitable limbs for it. Even a druid can't automatically cast spells in wild shape, why should the summoner get it for free? If you want to cast spells while fused, give your eidolon hands or take Still Spell, the mechanics for it are already in the game. Don't complain that there's caffeine in your coffee if you have the choice of ordering decaffeinated coffee.

Seraphimpunk wrote:
since you're only defending the archtype on the wording that's published,

Is it so strange that I'd base my answers on the form of the text in the published book, rather than rewriting it to suit a handful of players who complain that the archetype isn't good enough?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


We already have hit points and temporary hit points. We don't need a third category of hit points that act sort of like hit points and sort of like temporary hit points and need to be tracked separately.

If I wasn't being ignored here, it could be made easily and abundantly clear that this already exists.

In fact, Summoners get access to it. It's called Stoneskin. 3rd level Summoner Spell.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:


Correct. The Synthesist does not cover how to deal with Eidolon hit point loss (if there even is any--if they're temporary hit points, and the Eidolon goes away when the temp hp end, then its actual hp are never touched) upon being summoned, and the Fused Eidolon ability says "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability". Ergo, it treats hit points, death, and so on like the normal eidolon, except that it can't normally be hurt. Therefore, its hit points are full every time it's summoned, and, because it cannot be slain (again, barring Split Forms), it can be summoned as many times a day as the summoner wants, even if the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon are depleted.

Excellent.

that, and some temporary hit points from a scroll of False Life, will be sure to keep my synthesist going, and my player's synthesist.

edit: i see you Cartigan. where's it already exist?

re-edit: eh i see stoneskin as kind of like it. dr 10/adamantine, but only up to 10 hp / caster level. negates the temp hp problem, negates needing to heal it, and treats it more like a suit of armor or a skin of stone than a living creature that you're fused with. its a good notion

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Is it so strange that I'd base my answers on the form of the text in the published book, rather than rewriting it to suit a handful of players who complain that the archetype isn't good enough?

considering thats what a FAQ is for, and that it happens all the time when the rules as published are incorrect or poorly written in the first place, yes. The archtype was badly written and is evidence by the high number of FAQs written so far to address problems and corner cases with it. you'll have to keep writing FAQs for it if you don't just step back from it, play test some alternative solutions, and re-write it.

And i'm not saying the archtype isn't good enough. I'm saying replacing phsyical stats completely is hands down broken an simply awaiting exploitation. ::edit:: you're just not fixing the things that are broken, and you're not fixing the things that do over-complicate the class. ::

as you can see by Fozbek's post, treating the eidolon's hit points as the summoner's temporary hit points causes odd loopholes with temporary hit points, creating a constantly refreshing pool of temporary hit points.


Seraphimpunk wrote:


And i'm not saying the archtype isn't good enough. I'm saying replacing phsyical stats completely is hands down broken an simply awaiting exploitation.

It's also something they rewrote and rebalanced the entire polymorph system to remove.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yah. its not like they're going back to that for the polymorph rules at least. but its almost as if they're testing the waters for it. i may have to start walling off rules in my home games. "well , pathfinder had a good run, then it started going downhill again. i stopped buying books once they brought back 3.0 polymorph rules for one archtype. " silly devs.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fozbek wrote:
Correct. The Synthesist does not cover how to deal with Eidolon hit point loss (if there even is any--if they're temporary hit points, and the Eidolon goes away when the temp hp end, then its actual hp are never touched) upon being summoned, and the Fused Eidolon ability says "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability". Ergo, it treats hit points, death, and so on like the normal eidolon, except that it can't normally be hurt. Therefore, its hit points are full every time it's summoned, and, because it cannot be slain (again, barring Split Forms), it can be summoned as many times a day as the summoner wants, even if the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon are depleted.

I see what you're saying. Unfortunately, the text on the regular summoner isn't clear and can be interpreted in two possible ways ("its hp are what it had when I last summoned it," vs. "its hp are what it had when I last dismissed it"). I talked to Jason about how he intended it to work (answer: when last dismissed), and just posted an APG FAQ item about this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
Correct. The Synthesist does not cover how to deal with Eidolon hit point loss (if there even is any--if they're temporary hit points, and the Eidolon goes away when the temp hp end, then its actual hp are never touched) upon being summoned, and the Fused Eidolon ability says "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability". Ergo, it treats hit points, death, and so on like the normal eidolon, except that it can't normally be hurt. Therefore, its hit points are full every time it's summoned, and, because it cannot be slain (again, barring Split Forms), it can be summoned as many times a day as the summoner wants, even if the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon are depleted.
I see what you're saying. Unfortunately, the text on the regular summoner isn't clear and can be interpreted in two possible ways ("its hp are what it had when I last summoned it," vs. "its hp are what it had when I last dismissed it"). I talked to Jason about how he intended it to work (answer: when last dismissed), and just posted an APG FAQ item about this.

That's not actually relevant, though, because a synthesist's eidolon never takes hit point damage (except when Split Forms is active).

Contributor

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Foz, I think this is a case where you know how it should work, but you're deliberately choosing to not let it run that way.

1. Eidolon has hit points.
2. When fused to the synthesist, the eidolon's hp become temp hp on the fused entity.
3. When those temp hp are gone, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Clearly, there is a direct interaction between temp hp damage damage taken and the eidolon's actual hit points (even though it never exists on its own as a separate creature for most of its career). When the synthesist gets split eidolon, do you really think the eidolon's hp are unrelated to the temp hp the fused synthesist had?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thems the rules as written.


And before you say, "A synthesist's eidolon does not have hit points to reference, it only has the temporary hit points that it provides to its summoner", I ask that you read this section from the Fused Eidolon ability:

Quote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

That quite clearly provides two important clarifications with regards to this discussion:

1. Synthesist eidolons have actual hit points.
2. The temp hit points are applied to the summoner.

Because of 1, we know that synthesist eidolons do indeed have hit point pools, and thus they interact normally with the standard summoner "eidolon has X hit points when it's summoned" rules.

Because of 2, we know that the eidolon cannot be damaged when it is not affected by Split Forms. All of the damage is applied to the summoner, not the eidolon, and only the summoner's temporary hit points are reduced. There's no mention of reducing the eidolon's actual hit points by an amount equal the damage the synthesist takes.

Furthermore, if the eidolon did take the same amount of damage the summoner did, and it vanishes at 0, then once a synthesist's temp hp is depleted, HE LOSES HIS EIDOLON FOREVER. How so? Because eidolons are resummoned at the hit points they were dismissed/banished at, and they only recover half their hit points if they were slain (which it wasn't, merely staggered, not even knocked unconscious), and so it has 0 hit points and thus provides 0 temporary hit points when it is summoned. Since it provides 0 temporary hit points, the summoner has 0 temporary hit points from the eidolon, and it is immediately unsummoned.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Foz, I think this is a case where you know how it should work, but you're deliberately choosing to not let it run that way.

1. Eidolon has hit points.
2. When fused to the synthesist, the eidolon's hp become temp hp on the fused entity.
3. When those temp hp are gone, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Clearly, there is a direct interaction between temp hp damage damage taken and the eidolon's actual hit points (even though it never exists on its own as a separate creature for most of its career). When the synthesist gets split eidolon, do you really think the eidolon's hp are unrelated to the temp hp the fused synthesist had?

Might I suggest that new rules similar to the Sythesist archetype be presented the way playing 0HD monsters are presented in the original bestiary. It makes things much clearer that the rules haven't been completely thought through and that players/GMs should be prepared to make adjustments/house rulings on the fly when using the material.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Foz, I think this is a case where you know how it should work, but you're deliberately choosing to not let it run that way.

1. Eidolon has hit points.
2. When fused to the synthesist, the eidolon's hp become temp hp on the fused entity.
3. When those temp hp are gone, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.

Clearly, there is a direct interaction between temp hp damage damage taken and the eidolon's actual hit points (even though it never exists on its own as a separate creature for most of its career). When the synthesist gets split eidolon, do you really think the eidolon's hp are unrelated to the temp hp the fused synthesist had?

Great. So now the eidolon's hit points are both hit points and temporary hit points at the same time. Further, since the eidolon is taking hit point damage, it can be healed of hit point damage (which would then restore the temporary hit points, since temp hp=current hp).

The reasoning given in the FAQ entry for not being able to heal the eidolon is that it's only temporary hit points. This is clearly not so, by your own admission. Thus, the reasoning is faulty and needs to be re-thought.

Contributor

Again, this is one of the increasingly common board discussions where you know how something should work, and you're deliberately acting like you don't know that just so you can prove a point that the rules are "unclear," in that they aren't thousands of pages long that explain every possible permutation of possibility.

You understand how the rules should work.

I don't talk to you like you don't understand how the rules should work.

Why are you presenting an argument as if you don't understand how the rules should work?

451 to 500 of 976 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.