One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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Scarab Sages

thrilled wrote:


Lets say I have 13 synthesist lvls and I am using TWF + Improved unarmed strike. How would my attacks look like assuming that I want to make the maximum attacks available. The thing that worries me quite a bit is that the eidolons bab of 10 isn't that strong :( I would much more prefer to use my own bab. Anyway looking forward to your response.

BAB from other classes adds in. 13 synthesist / 7 fighter would have a 17 BAB.

He could also, in theory, have limbs(arms)x11: That's 22 manufactured weapons. It's far from recommended, but it is legal.


Artanthos wrote:
thrilled wrote:


Lets say I have 13 synthesist lvls and I am using TWF + Improved unarmed strike. How would my attacks look like assuming that I want to make the maximum attacks available. The thing that worries me quite a bit is that the eidolons bab of 10 isn't that strong :( I would much more prefer to use my own bab. Anyway looking forward to your response.

BAB from other classes adds in. 13 synthesist / 7 fighter would have a 17 BAB.

He could also, in theory, have limbs(arms)x11: That's 22 manufactured weapons. It's far from recommended, but it is legal.

Ahh the news about the bab from other classes really helped :)

However can't see a reason why anyone would go for 11 limbs and 22 manufactured weapons.. I still should only have the 4 mainhand attacks and possibly 3 offhand (with the TWF feats) + the natural attacks from the eidolon which are also limited and in our example it's limited to maximum of 5 natural attacks (due to eidolon being lvl 13).

Right?

/Thrilled


Multiweapon Fighting. As long as you're not making a Pathfinder Society character, the Eidolon qualifies, and can use it to make an attack with every weapon it wields.


Fozbek wrote:
Multiweapon Fighting. As long as you're not making a Pathfinder Society character, the Eidolon qualifies, and can use it to make an attack with every weapon it wields.

Well I want this to be pathfinder society compliant..

So by using the normal two weapon fighting + the natural attacks (set by the eidolon) then I should be compliant I hope? I would never run around with 22 arms fighting that's imo is just plain stupid and shouldn't even be allowed :p

/T


Someone, somewhere, might think the idea of transforming into a hekatoncheires is a neat idea.


I hate to ask, seeings how much time and effort has been put it, but what's the summon time to bring a synthesized eidolon into being?


DragonMunchie wrote:
I hate to ask, seeings how much time and effort has been put it, but what's the summon time to bring a synthesized eidolon into being?

10 minutes to summon it indefinitely (until you fall unconscious or sleep), or 1 round if you cast summon eidolon (which only lasts for 1 round/level).


Umbral Reaver wrote:
10 minutes to summon it indefinitely (until you fall unconscious or sleep)

1 minute, I thought?


Slaunyeh wrote:
1 minute, I thought?

Oops. You're right.

Scarab Sages

thrilled wrote:


So by using the normal two weapon fighting + the natural attacks (set by the eidolon) then I should be compliant I hope? I would never run around with 22 arms fighting that's imo is just plain stupid and shouldn't even be allowed :p
/T

You should be.

As for a synthesist with 22 weapons....he's spent nothing on boosting strength, defense or utility. I would also probably rule him as the target of every single ranged attack every npc ever throws. After all, he's 10x as scary looking as the fighter and no one's going to voluntarily melee him. Ranged is the very obvious solution to anyone with an intelligence higher than 6.


Artanthos wrote:
thrilled wrote:


So by using the normal two weapon fighting + the natural attacks (set by the eidolon) then I should be compliant I hope? I would never run around with 22 arms fighting that's imo is just plain stupid and shouldn't even be allowed :p
/T

You should be.

As for a synthesist with 22 weapons....he's spent nothing on boosting strength, defense or utility. I would also probably rule him as the target of every single ranged attack every npc ever throws. After all, he's 10x as scary looking as the fighter and no one's going to voluntarily melee him. Ranged is the very obvious solution to anyone with an intelligence higher than 6.

What if that Eidolon has 22 hand crossbows? ;)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

rules for multiweapon fighting apply to ranged weapons too. check entries for crossbow and heavy crossbow. i think hand counts as light, so you'd probably be at a -6 on main hand, -8 on all the other hands, b/c in PFS you can't take the multiweapon fighting feat that lessens the penalty... and then to reload each crossbow you'd need a free hand


Just have a higher dex and take two weapon fighting Monster with TWF

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If a summoner has a natural bite attack, can he interchange THAT with the eidolon's attacks? his eidolon has the appropriate limb ( a head ).

just considering it for a tengu summoner, to get bite/claw/claw at first level.

Scarab Sages

The current ruling is, as long as the eidolon as an opporiate limb. So yes, if you already have a bite attack you can use it.

Feel free to take two levels of Dragon Disciple for the bite + claws. You already qualify for the prestige class.


I'm guessing based on the number of posts here and the fact that some questions recur in the last few pages as in the first that we are all still awaiting answers from pathfinder about most of the questions about this archtype?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
It appears, I think, that SKR has done all he plans to do for the synthesist. Broken and unwieldy as it is, its only fixable in home games now.

Yes, me not having any more information at this time clearly means the book is closed on this topic.

BTW, hostile, snarky, and/or passive-aggressive posts are not the way to encourage Paizo staff to give you information.

Peter, Paizo have said all they are going to say in this thread. Given the number of pages questions get repeated.


Alas, I, too, gave up bumping the thread and the questions.

I still hope... Okay, let's be honest, I have some last drops of hope left in the once full barrel for a revival though, especially as that is the last thing SKR said:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
It appears, I think, that SKR has done all he plans to do for the synthesist. Broken and unwieldy as it is, its only fixable in home games now.

Yes, me not having any more information at this time clearly means the book is closed on this topic.

BTW, hostile, snarky, and/or passive-aggressive posts are not the way to encourage Paizo staff to give you information.

So either there is going to be a revival, or SP has been right after all.

If I was SKR, I wouldn't want to leave it at that. ;)

Maybe it helps if we all put "synthesist rules revamp & clarification" on our christmas wish lists?

Scarab Sages

I too wish to see the synthesist rules revamped and clarified.

The class offers too much potential for creating unique characters not otherwise possible for it to be left in its current state.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I read this entire thread over the course of the day. I honestly can not believe some of the hostility, condescension, and forum-tantrums because people weren't getting their way. I have a player that rolled a Synthesist, is nearly level 6, and hasn't experienced anything close to the issues that some of the people claim to have with the class...and yes, we are using the FAQs. The only thing I've apparently been doing wrong has to do with the following FAQ:

Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) benefit from the Skilled evolution even though his eidolon doesn't have skills of its own? What about the Ability Score Increase evolution applied to a mental ability score?

If the synthesist's eidolon has the Skilled evolution, the synthesist gains the bonus to that skill.

If the synthesist applies the Increased Ability Score evolution to the eidolon's mental ability score, it has no effect on the synthesist because he uses his own mental ability scores.

Because of the last sentence, I interpreted that items like a Belt of Giant Strength or Incredible Dexterity didn't increase the eidolon's ability scores since those items increased the PC's physical stats and the eidolon's physical stats are used in place of the PC's when fused. It does say that the Synthesist can use their items, but when their items add a bonus to something that the eidolon replaces, I interpreted that to mean that it didn't work. It looks like I was wrong about this and will be making this change during our next session. Fortunately, my player has been very understanding when it comes to updating how his class plays based on rulings from SKR.

I house-ruled that the synthesist could take a feat called Fused Casting that worked to the feat that allows the druid to cast in Wild Shape. Feats are limited, but the player made the change as soon as he got another feat.

I don't think that the Synthesist is unplayable, by any means. It's not my cup of tea for a class to play, but it's quite effective. I really appreciate the input of the Paizo staff on threads like this and look forward to further clarifications.

Scarab Sages

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It's not that the class is unplayable, it's the lack of consistent rulings as a result of poorly written rules.

A player is not going to want the rulings on how his character functions to fluctuate from table to table. In its current state, this is a problem faced by the synthesist. This is not an issue when your playing with a set group.


That isn't the impression I got from reading through the thread. I got the impression that the loudest complaints from the loudest complainers were because the FAQs and clarifications weren't to their liking or that Paizo were making an archetype that's a throwback to 3.5 and this was Pathfinder heresy.

With the FAQs, both my Synthesist and myself have only run into the question of how magic items and physical/AC bonuses work. The AC issue has been clarified since the eidolon functions as the armor bonus.

I do agree with the suggestion/complaint that the Synthesist should have a more significant write up of its own. It might be an archetype of the Summoner, but is significantly different enough that it needs something more in-depth than what we got with UM. I'd love to see a .pdf of some kind made available with the FAQ worked into it and clarification of the bigger questions included.


I've read the entire thread and I'm still not quite sure how the Eidolon's hp react if the Eidolon is banished (aka the summoner goes unconscious after reaching 0 hp and/or the Eidolon reaches 0 hp) and is then resummoned (after the 1 minute ritual). Is the Eidolon's hp (the summoners temporary hp) then effectively 0 when resummoned? And needs to be healed up from there? Or is it at half hp, as if it had been slain? Or are the hp's back to full?

Can anyone help with this? :)

Contributor

Derwalt wrote:
I've read the entire thread and I'm still not quite sure how the Eidolon's hp react if the Eidolon is banished (aka the summoner goes unconscious after reaching 0 hp and/or the Eidolon reaches 0 hp) and is then resummoned (after the 1 minute ritual). Is the Eidolon's hp (the summoners temporary hp) then effectively 0 when resummoned? And needs to be healed up from there? Or is it at half hp, as if it had been slain? Or are the hp's back to full?

The text on page 80 is being changed so references about reducing the eidolon to 0 hp, which currently just say it's being sent back to its home plane, will say "killed and sent back to its home plane." Thus, it'll be clear that this works just like the standard eidolon rules--if killed, resummoning it brings it back at half hit points.


Ok - but that means that the summoner won't be able to resummon the Eidolon untill the next day then? So if the synthesist goes down but is healed back up again he'll be severely gimped the rest of the day? Not a big problem in normal play, but I could see it as quite a problem in PFS play.

I that just how it is then or are you still debating this?

...and by the way: thank you very much for the answer, I'm still surprised by the way you developers take an active share in the debates! :)

Contributor

That's how it is.

Though you can still use the summon eidolon spell as a temporary solution if your eidolon has been killed.

Scarab Sages

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You would be better off to allow yourself to go unconscious while your eidolon retains 1 hp (unless you risk death by doing so).

Your eidolon will be immediately banished, but can be resummoned and healed as soon as you wake up. If your like me and play with a Con higher than your eidolon's, you'll also gain hit points as soon as he's banished, possibly enough to get back up.

Dark Archive

That is the cost, though it should be hard to do. At level 4 the backup plan in PFS is invisibility + summon monster ability.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I made a snarky comment about the synthesist in another thread this morning, but the truth is I really hope this archetype gets the support it deserves. It is, IMHO, possibly the most creative archetype created by Paizo to date. It just needs a little more TLC to iron out the corner cases. Hopefully in a couple of months time we'll have the FAQ to a point where we can say that most, if not all, of our questions have been answered.

Note that I didn't say that we were all thrilled with the answers themselves, but at least they'll be there.

Good gaming to all,

DJF


Artanthos that is pure genius! :D I hadn't thought of that at all. That quite solves my problem. Thank you very much!

And a new thank you to Sean as well for the swift and precise answer :)


So...if a synthesist can't cast if his eidolon doesn't have hands (for the quadruped), one of which being free, does the synthesist with two weapon fighting get multiweapon fighting in a fused form with more than 2 hands?

That's assuming the special on multiweapon fighting really does upgrade the feat as implied in the text:

"Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."


Alternatively, lets say the Synthesist takes multiweapon attack at level 11 (with the aspect class feature granting himself 2 extra limbs), and then later changes the evolution from limbs to something else or removing it. Does he still get to use the feat while fused?

Scarab Sages

No. You have a wasted feat. You know how to use multiple weapons effectively, you just lack the physical ability to do so.

It would be like using an item to qualify for a feat, then loosing the item.


Why would it be any different from taking Power Attack with your fused forms str as the prereq (assuming you have less than 13 in your base form)? Similar to taking it with a magic item that grants a str bonus or the like?

I am not disagreeing, just curious if maybe I am missing something that would distinguish these cases as different? Like does a ability score prereq have different rules than other prereqs?

Scarab Sages

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Same rules.

If you take power attack and you don't have a 13 strength unfused, you won't be able to use power attack until your strength goes back up to 13. You simply have a feat you can't use at that point in time.

Dark Archive

Not even that; if you don't qualify for Power attack you can't even take the feat. An 11 int fighter can't take combat expertise and only use it when he has a headband either. Prereqs are prereqs. Otherwise a lot of rangers would take boon companion at 3 to have it online for 4.


Artanthos wrote:

Same rules.

If you take power attack and you don't have a 13 strength unfused, you won't be able to use power attack until your strength goes back up to 13. You simply have a feat you can't use at that point in time.

If your str goes to 13 while fused, it's usable right? I know it would be legit with a stength boosting magic item worn, but with all the exceptions and weird rules for the synthesist, I don't know what the heck would be the ruling!

I will probably just rule it's ok to use multiattack in fused state, and even let him take it whenever, but just limit how many arms he can have by level. I don't want 6 sword wielding arms and 4 natural attacks at like 6th level.

Dark Archive

You cannot take a feat you do not qualify for. So optimized synthasists will not be powerattacking. Which is fine, with the damage you can do it would rarely be a good idea.


But you can use a magical item to qualify for a feat, once the effect is persistant (Normally 24 hours). Also to quote Mr Reynolds - 'I'm a proponent of the school of "you can *select* it if you sometimes qualify, but you can only *use* it when you actually meet all the requirements."'
So yes, the Synthasist can take Power Attack, but only use it while fused.


Thalin wrote:
You cannot take a feat you do not qualify for. So optimized synthasists will not be powerattacking. Which is fine, with the damage you can do it would rarely be a good idea.

Power Attack was just an example. I am pretty sure in a FAQ somewhere it was said a stat boosting magic item can make you qualify for a feat, and you can use it as long as you continue to qualify for it by wearing it or increasing your stat another way. Just not sure if the synthesist fused form would be similar, I don't see why not, except for the fact that a magic item functions while unconscious, I don't see what the difference would be.

It does state that the Eidolon and Summoner are one creature in the Archetype description text, so the "more than 2 hands" requirement for multiattack appears to be met in a fused state with the appropriate evolutions. Though I don't know if it is just flavor text, or an actual ruling as far as game mechanics go.

Personally, as a DM, this archetype causes way too many headaches.

Hoping an official ruling on this can be made!


If you have the boosted ability score for atleast 24 hours, you can select feats and whatnot based off that boosted ability score. You also can't USE the feat when not boosted. I'd say that goes for any other prereq, like extra limbs, too.

Edit:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-bonuses

Scarab Sages

Thalin wrote:
You cannot take a feat you do not qualify for. So optimized synthasists will not be powerattacking. Which is fine, with the damage you can do it would rarely be a good idea.

The synthesist is going to qualify for Power Attack. The exact same way any other character is going to qualify for feats with enhancement bonuses. It's trivial to maintain a fused state for 24+ hours.

The synthesist just won't be able to use power attack while unfused if his normal strength is below 13. Somehow, I don't think that's going to be an issue though.

Liberty's Edge

When your fused do you get the eidolons saves or yours or whichever is best?

Liberty's Edge

So if you have an amulet of mighty fists giving you 1d6 fire on all your natural attacks and then you take the evolution that give you say1d6 electrical damage with claw attacks do they stack?

Dark Archive

Your saves, with adjustments for the combined form's Dex/Con bonuses to Ref/Fort.

Yes, the amulet stacks.

Liberty's Edge

I remember reading that Sean k Reynolds said something about what the action is to transfer hit points to your eidolon. Does anyone remember what he said or where he it?


Artanthos wrote:
Thalin wrote:
You cannot take a feat you do not qualify for. So optimized synthasists will not be powerattacking. Which is fine, with the damage you can do it would rarely be a good idea.

The synthesist is going to qualify for Power Attack. The exact same way any other character is going to qualify for feats with enhancement bonuses. It's trivial to maintain a fused state for 24+ hours.

The synthesist just won't be able to use power attack while unfused if his normal strength is below 13. Somehow, I don't think that's going to be an issue though.

I am with you on this one.


Grimmzorch wrote:
I remember reading that Sean k Reynolds said something about what the action is to transfer hit points to your eidolon. Does anyone remember what he said or where he it?

You're talking about the basic ability that's mentioned in the Ultimate Magic book?

Liberty's Edge

Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Grimmzorch wrote:
I remember reading that Sean k Reynolds said something about what the action is to transfer hit points to your eidolon. Does anyone remember what he said or where he it?
You're talking about the basic ability that's mentioned in the Ultimate Magic book?

Yes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Kenney wrote:


Just to clarify on this point: Eidolons are considered companions/pets.

Chris,

I know I saw this but it was questioned at a game we recently played. I've got multiple yes and no and I'm trying to get some clarification on this.

The newest PFS guide doesnt seem to have anything on this. I'm looking to see if there was an alternate area. that you were aware that this rule is still valid before I change my character a bit.

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