Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Aquatic Adventures (PFRPG)

What's the Deep Shaman like ?

Any rules for turning a longship into a submarine?

Well, there's the Dive! Dive! Dive! imposition from Skull & Shackles. It's temporary, but nice while it lasts.

I really like the section on the valashmai sea especially the part about Shbloon and possibly a second kaiju living in that sea as well.

Kajehase wrote:

Any rules for turning a longship into a submarine?

Well, there's the Dive! Dive! Dive! imposition from Skull & Shackles. It's temporary, but nice while it lasts.

Or, staying in the RPG line, there's a spell from that AP.

So the line in the book that allows water-based creatures to attack normally still doesn't include the dolphin.

It only lists creatures that have the aquatic or water subtypes. Dolphins do not have the aquatic subtype.

They're psychically sensitive spontaneous Casters (still Divine though) and get a Holy Hippocampus.

If they're psychic, surely a holy amygdala would make more sense.

So the line in the book that allows water-based creatures to attack normally still doesn't include the dolphin.

It only lists creatures that have the aquatic or water subtypes. Dolphins do not have the aquatic subtype.

Well, you tell those dolphins I said it was okay!

Also... ooops, and damnit!

Yeah, it looks like the problem is that sea-dwelling mammals like dolphins and whales lack the aquatic subtype since they technically just hold their breath a long time (except a few that erroneously do have it). They are fundamentally aquatic (in the English term rather than the subtype) creatures, and like Adam says, should be fine with it as well. The point is that terrestrial creatures like an elephant or a catfolk wouldn't benefit.

Maybe something to the effect that if a creature only has a swim speed and no other valid movement forms it takes no underwater attack penalties?

Maybe something to the effect that if a creature only has a swim speed and no other valid movement forms it takes no underwater attack penalties?

That would still leave out the pinnipeds.

They all have bite attacks, so no problems there.

Crocodiles though, they have troubles with their tail slap.

They all have bite attacks, so no problems there.

Crocodiles though, they have troubles with their tail slap.

Ok, I get it. Not having the book yet I wasn't sure whether it introduced new difficulties, but it sounds like it's just the old Slashing/Bludgeoning issues.

Yeah, it looks like the problem is that sea-dwelling mammals like dolphins and whales lack the aquatic subtype since they technically just hold their breath a long time (except a few that erroneously do have it). They are fundamentally aquatic (in the English term rather than the subtype) creatures, and like Adam says, should be fine with it as well. The point is that terrestrial creatures like an elephant or a catfolk wouldn't benefit.

Hopefully we can get this clarification in the Campaign Clarifications for PFS, so GM's don't have to fight with players over whether a dolphin gets a penalty underwater or not.

I also like that the antarkos ocean as a colony of kalo living there.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Yeah, it looks like the problem is that sea-dwelling mammals like dolphins and whales lack the aquatic subtype since they technically just hold their breath a long time (except a few that erroneously do have it). They are fundamentally aquatic (in the English term rather than the subtype) creatures, and like Adam says, should be fine with it as well. The point is that terrestrial creatures like an elephant or a catfolk wouldn't benefit.

Hopefully we can get this clarification in the Campaign Clarifications for PFS, so GM's don't have to fight with players over whether a dolphin gets a penalty underwater or not.

Maybe this could be a revision of the Hold Breath special quality. I am not certain, but suspect all of the aquatic animals that do not have the aquatic subtype have this special quality. Perhaps creatures like boggards and lizardfolk are edge cases, but I cannot think of any monsters off hand with the SQ that absolutely shouldn't be skilled under water. EDIT: Actually, looking through it looks like the cockroaches have the Hold Breath SQ. I honestly don't know how well they are supposed to be underwater.

Does a druid wildshaping into a squid or even a water elemental take underwater combat penalties? Because the shape changing magic doesn't technically change the druid's type, just changes him into exactly the same form as something with a happy type.

While I really liked this book, one issue that annoys me is the continued misconception that sahuagin are amphibious. They aren't. Thus, despite what's written under the "Sahuagin Empire," it would be unrealistic for the shark people to raid coastal towns. It would be extremely tough for them to even climb aboard a ship and raid it, which is something they are also supposed to do. Good luck pulling off either feat while holding your breath the entire time.

Um I think that might have been a minor mistake on paizo's part. If not there is another explanation. Magic. People cast air bubble and water-breathing all the time to prepare for underwater excursions. What is to say the sahagins don't have a similar carefully coordinated system for raiding dry land. Also you have to factor in how mutants fit into sahagins society. A mutant that can breath air and wateris going to be very good at what it does. Besides, even if you assume that most sahagins are as presented, you assume they are not preparing for these raids. If a player made no preperations to fight underwater, holding his breath, and using his just his normal kit for the surface weapons, he would die in a few minutes or rounds.

Preperations are always made. Sahagins that are stupid and don't prepare die droves. If they are an empire, the implications include an advanced intelligence, a strong military power, and the ability to call on other resources besides simply just what they come prepackaged with.

A monsters stats are a small slice of what they are. If you just took humans by basic stats, they don't win against over half the bestiary. And yet they have made empires and civilisations that have lasted many, many years. Sahagins can likewise form civilisations. They can develop class levels, amass power and knowledge. There have already been proofs of this.

they do have a breath air spell. Paizo srd link, scroll down

A monsters stats are a small slice of what they are. If you just took humans by basic stats, they don't win against over half the bestiary. And yet they have made empires and civilisations that have lasted many, many years. Sahagins can likewise form civilisations. They can develop class levels, amass power and knowledge. There have already been proofs of this.

Okay. I'll rephrase: the vast, overwhelming majority of sahuagins cannot breathe air. The vast, overwhelming majority of humans cannot breathe water. That's why humans don't raid sahuagin camps, and why sahuagins shouldn't raid human towns.

they do have a breath air spell. Paizo srd link, scroll down

It's a 3rd-level spell. Each casting can give a few sahuagin the ability to breathe air for an hour. Depending on the size of the raiding party, you would need a dozen or more castings (or even more expensive alternatives like wands, scrolls, or potions). In all, a very inefficient way to raid. As written, sahuagin would be much better off sticking to raiding fellow aquatic creatures. They have very little reason to waste so many resources for what is going to roughly be the same reward.

It's a 3rd-level spell. Each casting can give a few sahuagin the ability to breathe air for an hour.

A level 5 caster gets to divide 10 hours (600 minutes) of duration. That could give 100 sahuagin 6 minutes of air activity. Easily enough to overwhelm a merchant vessel for example. And that's just with one spell slot. Could memorize multiple castings.

Edit: Remembered the rule about "touch only 6 people per casting" limitation. Maybe there are ways to stretch that limitation? Any feats or magic items that allow more touching?

A level 5 caster gets to divide 10 hours (600 minutes) of duration. That could give 100 sahuagin 6 minutes of air activity. Easily enough to overwhelm a merchant vessel for example. And that's just with one spell slot. Could memorize multiple castings.

Personally I think the water/air breathing spell should have a 1 hour minimum per creature, but that's just me. Taken as written, yes, air breathing could allow a large sahuagin band time on the surface. No matter how dumb the thought of a single caster touching 100 creatures with a single standard action is, or the fact that very few sahuagin would be able to cast the spell (to date, most sahuagin with class levels favor martial classes, not spellcasting ones). But that's my main annoyance with sahuagins: the idea of them being land-raiders is dumb. They should have just been given the amphibious quality. They already have a base land speed and legs, which certainly implies surface capabilities, and have repeatedly functioned as terrestrial threats in past Pathfinder works, yet... can't actually breathe air? Dumb.

I don't think there's anything dumb about the idea of them being land-raiders. If we were talking merfolk I'd agree with them flopping around on their fish tails, but with the legs and all, I don't see anything comical about sahuagin attacking land-dwellers. We've seen them emerging from the water as far back as the 1978 original Monster Manual illustration. It's always been an ingrained aspect of them that they keep coming out of the water.

I don't think there's anything dumb about the idea of them being land-raiders. If we were talking merfolk I'd agree with them flopping around on their fish tails, but with the legs and all, I don't see anything comical about sahuagin attacking land-dwellers. We've seen them emerging from the water as far back as the 1978 original Monster Manual illustration. It's always been an ingrained aspect of them that they keep coming out of the water.

So glad you brought that up! In 2nd-edition D&D, sahuagins were amphibious. In 3rd-edition, they had a specific ability called water dependent that allowed them to survive outside water for 1 hour per 2 Constitution before they started drowning. In Pathfinder, this crucial and iconic ability was removed - seemingly arbitrarily - and yet sahuagins are continued to be treated as if they possessed it. Still called land raiders, still encountered on the surface in past adventures. This? This is dumb.

Sure, removing the amphibious ability might be questionable (I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it 'dumb' -- that's IMO needlessly offensive and doesn't make anyone want to look for a solution for you), but using them as land raiders most certainly isn't -- it's in keeping with how they've always been.

Sure, removing the amphibious ability might be questionable (I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it 'dumb' -- that's IMO needlessly offensive and doesn't make anyone want to look for a solution for you), but using them as land raiders most certainly isn't -- it's in keeping with how they've always been.

I'm not looking for help or solutions. I'm pointing out an error.

They can hold their breath while fighting for 14+ rounds, I don't see a problem. kill a number of humans and run off to come back later, where are the air breathers going to hide in the middle of the ocean...

Kinda works for coastal settlements too. Otherwise yeah, seems like an odd thing to do.

I'm not looking for help or solutions. I'm pointing out an error.

Well then you're failing. There is no error.

They can hold their breath while fighting for 14+ rounds, I don't see a problem. kill a number of humans and run off to come back later, where are the air breathers going to hide in the middle of the ocean...

Kinda works for coastal settlements too. Otherwise yeah, seems like an odd thing to do.

For a brief ship raid, sure. But for a coastal town of like 200+ people? They'd have to trudge from the beach up to the town itself. They would have ~1 minute and 40 seconds to bust in doors, battle resistance, pillage goods, slaughter innocents, then head back to the ocean. If the town had even a basic wooden wall, they'd be even more screwed. I'm fine that Paizo decided to make them an entirely aquatic threat (except for small groups with spellcaster backup) by removing their pseudo-amphibiousness, but they don't seem to stick to that. Anyway, as said it's an error. Errors happen and this one has a simple solution. Nothing more to say.

For a brief ship raid, sure. But for a coastal town of like 200+ people? They'd have to trudge from the beach up to the town itself. They would have ~1 minute and 40 seconds to bust in doors, battle resistance, pillage goods, slaughter innocents, then head back to the ocean. If the town had even a basic wooden wall, they'd be even more screwed.

Presumably in Pathfinder they don't attack towns that have a basic wooden wall or an extensive travel time from shore to people. There's plenty of villages that have piers and wharfs right on the water where sahuagin can reach humans within 2-3 rounds of emerging from the water. In Pathfinder, these are likely the places targeted by sahuagin.

In 2nd-edition D&D, sahuagins were amphibious. In 3rd-edition, they had a specific ability called water dependent that allowed them to survive outside water for 1 hour per 2 Constitution before they started drowning. In Pathfinder, this crucial and iconic ability was removed - seemingly arbitrarily - and yet sahuagins are continued to be treated as if they possessed it. Still called land raiders, still encountered on the surface in past adventures. This? This is dumb.

I'm lost. If sahuagin don't have the amphibious ability, but are treated as if they did in virtually every Pathfinder product in existence, why doesn't one just slap the ability on there themselves, make the fact known to any players they have that need things to be absolutely by the letter of the law, and be done with it?

Why is this something we need to be arguing about for over a dozen posts now and counting? I'm also sorry to be adding to it, but I had to ask!

(I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it 'dumb' -- that's IMO needlessly offensive and doesn't make anyone want to look for a solution for you)

Upon reflection, you are correct. Too late to edit the post though. Apologies.

I'm just glad to get the second of quartet of major artifacts in a book.

Lack of artifacts have been kind of annoying to me IE not showing up in Campaign Setting books.

It's weird that Paizo chose this book to establish that forcing people into slavery in a particularly cruel way isn't evil.

In the last few months, the pirate captain Amity Halfheart (CN female human swashbuckler 6) has made a name for herself capturing slaves to sell in illegal markets on the southern coast. Halfheart makes a point of taking only half the ship’s crew, leaving the rest to make their way to safer waters. She splits up pairs whenever she can, taking one of two spouses, one of two siblings, a parent or a child, and so on, devastating even those she ultimately leaves behind.

While they've had Neutral slave owners before for an actual Slaver-kidnapper-whatever the f%~~ you would call her, and one with an even crueler MO like this, I would definitely peg as full on Evil.

I'm going with typo for this one, because seriously, you're stacking cruelty on top of an already malicious cruelty.

Well, why would she release half of the crew? If she really wanted to make money, she would enslave and sell everyone.

Well, why would she release half of the crew? If she really wanted to make money, she would enslave and sell everyone.

Based on what I read, she releases them to ruin them. It's not about just the money for her, but the pain she can cause even those she sets free, which she only sets free to cause them pain, which is why she tears apart families and lovers every time.

Sorry, man. That's evil. Pure and simple.

Definitely evil. That's just an error.

While they've had Neutral slave owners before for an actual Slaver-kidnapper-whatever the f$@* you would call her, and one with an even crueler MO like this, I would definitely peg as full on Evil.

I'm going with typo for this one, because seriously, you're stacking cruelty on top of an already malicious cruelty.

Yeah. Sometimes a character can be neutral because they balance out evil acts with good ones, but I can't imagine what would make the scales balance here.

Rysky wrote:

While they've had Neutral slave owners before for an actual Slaver-kidnapper-whatever the f$@* you would call her, and one with an even crueler MO like this, I would definitely peg as full on Evil.

I'm going with typo for this one, because seriously, you're stacking cruelty on top of an already malicious cruelty.

Yeah. Sometimes a character can be neutral because they balance out evil acts with good ones, but I can't imagine what would make the scales balance here.

Maybe she read one of those threads about how you can cast like three infernal healings and turn evil, regardless of intent, and so spends half her slave-gold on wands of protection from evil to UMD (and therefore cast all sorts of [good] spells to trump her evil actions). Which, yes, absurd, but sauce for the goose and all that.

Seriously, though. She's evil, or headed there on a rocket sled from a formerly good alignment... Gotta be a typo.

She sounds evil to me and I did find it strange they had her as CN.

CN works for me as a completely unpredictable personality type....

CN works for me as a completely unpredictable personality type....

Which this person isn't, since her reputation and writeup specifically spells out what she does each time, there is no unpredictably, you know what's going to happen.

That alignment is a typo.

That alignment is a typo.

Thank you for clearing that up, it is greatly appreciated.

I'm a little bummed we didn't get some more info on the gutaki/devilfish city of Achom (detailed in From Hells Heart). Seems like an absolutely killer place for an adventure of seven. I would have also liked to see one or two of the noted underwater communities get a formal stat writeup, but I understand that space was at a premium what with all the info, underwater rules, character options, and so forth.

Still though. Achom for the win baby.

That alignment is a typo.

seems like CE might fit - but confirmation would be good

I picked up this book just in time to get to the water parts of Hell's Rebels. The brutal pugilist in the game is delighted that making things prone now has an effect underwater. :-)

Also, the bit about squeezing damage from constricting doing full damage underwater regardless of the type matches the house ruling I already made up, so thanks for that!

I picked up this book just in time to get to the water parts of Hell's Rebels. The brutal pugilist in the game is delighted that making things prone now has an effect underwater. :-)

Also, the bit about squeezing damage from constricting doing full damage underwater regardless of the type matches the house ruling I already made up, so thanks for that!

Yeah, our brawler in Skull and Shackles, Ti, is happy about the underwater trip too; a lot of these were things that came up in my own aquatic games. Ti will caution your brutal pugilist that it is still very difficult to disorient a naturally aquatic creature with a high Swim bonus, though, so use those new powers wisely!