once again, a win. hopefully the card stock will be up to the chase.
I'm trying to figure out of this was something already in the works or if was based on an idea I pitched a few months back based on their chase rules.
I can see some of my write up details in the description or it could also be just something they had planed all along?
Maybe both?
or not.
Maybe they had already extracted the idea from your dreams before you pitched it. Just saying.
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Their whole idea of a chase started in the Crimson Throne adventure path where they had a chase set up with homemade cards and some rules for the chase. I am not sure if the rules changed or were expanded in the GMG because I have not read them in detail or compared them with the Crimson Throne rules but I am sure these have been in the works for a long time and I believe this has been discussed on the boards a long time ago...
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Their whole idea of a chase started in the Crimson Throne adventure path where they had a chase set up with homemade cards and some rules for the chase. I am not sure if the rules changed or were expanded in the GMG because I have not read them in detail or compared them with the Crimson Throne rules but I am sure these have been in the works for a long time and I believe this has been discussed on the boards a long time ago...
I'm not claiming its my idea - chase cards per se. On my sample card I listed multiple options (3 plus one alt each on each) chase card and also in my description I listed the option of stacking the deck to reflect environment transitions.
Not looking for a handout here, just some recognition for presenting and pitching the product version of one of their ideas.Ah well....
I would chock it up to great minds think alike. :)
Sounds like another deck I'll need to get ;)
How did I miss this? I've loved the chase rules since Curse of the Crimson Throne and was very happy to see them included in the Gamemastery Guide. I've also been thinking about expanding the rules to other kinds of "skill challenges" like extended social encounters.
I can definitely see the possibility of an expansion deck or three with this.
An instant pre-order for me. I can see this being an extremely useful tool for building chases into encounters or adventures. After all, what good action movie doesn't have a chase of some kind.
I'll see how this goes, but personally I think the idea of chase "cards" and the whole chase flowchart thing breaks the third wall too much.
In any game where I run a chase, I intend to use map packs instead, since those reflect a lot better that you're still interacting with the real world - having the party be on a specific map pack tile will mess up the game less than doing away with all of that and putting a flowchart of chase cards on the table.
For example, I played in "The Midnight Mauler" this past weekend, and the way the judge ran it completely broke the party's immersion in what was going on, as it essentially turned into a Choose Your Own Adventure for the duration of the chase. "If you try to jump, go to page 42. If you decide to wade, go to page 17." Bleah.
In my opinion, part of this was due to the judge's unfamiliarity with the chase rules, but he did say that the recommendation was to lay out the flowchart on the game table and use that directly. However, I really don't like game mechanics introduced that make everything seem less realistic, and laying a bunch of cards on the table and turning a game into a flowchart seems like it will do just that.
That's one of my major beefs with measuring distances in "squares" instead of feet, and with 4e's giving every power some kind of random side effect that's virtually impossible to explain in a realistic way (and it's also why I don't like action points that give you an "extra turn").
I know full well it has to do with my personal style of play; I'm more of a simulationist, but as a result I'm resistant to things that force me to break the third wall - and the uber-abstract chase mechanic that I see being used seems to do just that.
I kind of felt the same way as you did about the chase mechanic which I used a few months ago for the first time in the COTC AP. Then two things happened:
The first is I prepped and actually used it and my players LOVED IT. I mean absolutely LOVED IT. So much so that at the end of our session yesterday at least a few full months after we ran the session that I used it in they were still talking about it and are looking forward to another chase.
The second is, a lot of us get caught up in our own prejudices and forget that, well it's a Role Playing Game, but it's still a GAME. Honestly, once I explained how the chase mechanics worked for that chase it became a fun experience. And honestly in an RPG, fun trumps realism any day of the week.
Personally, and this may not be the case for you, but I'm glad that I took the risk and stepped out of the box of my preconceived notions of a thing. I'm more likely to use something like this again.
I will add this though, my group uses mini's and mats on occasion, not for every combat, but for important or interesting ones. So I would say that if you use mini's and a mat it's a little easier of a transition to use something like this chase mechanic.
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I don't know if this has been done; if not, whether it's too late to apply, but would it help if the cards were colour-coded by environment?
E.g. Urban, Forest, Swamp?
That way, the GM could be sure of finding hazards that fit the location, and not be hostage to an odd result?
Or does each card already contain a range of results, with the expectation that the GM will pick one or two and ignore the rest?
I kind of felt the same way as you did about the chase mechanic which I used a few months ago for the first time in the COTC AP. Then two things happened:
The first is I prepped and actually used it and my players LOVED IT. I mean absolutely LOVED IT. So much so that at the end of our session yesterday at least a few full months after we ran the session that I used it in they were still talking about it and are looking forward to another chase.
I just wasn't clear, I guess. I actually intend to use the chase mechanic, because I do like it, but I will never use the chase cards because they break the immersion.
I had a long discussion with two of my fellow players after the game we played; both, like me, GM more than they play, and both hated the chase mechanic as portrayed by that GM in that game. I tried, only partially successfully, to explain that the way that GM explained it, which was as a "metaphysical representation of the action" was actually incorrect - that chases were supposed to be based on real distances and relative speeds and stuff, though apparently the module does recommend laying out the flowchart on the table, which I do think is a mistake.
In any case, like so many things, I think it depends a lot on the quality of the GM and their understanding of the mechanic.
That's why I'll be using actual Map Pack cards, etc. - the chase represents real world locations, so why not represent it as such?
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I just wasn't clear, I guess. I actually intend to use the chase mechanic, because I do like it, but I will never use the chase cards because they break the immersion.
I had a long discussion with two of my fellow players after the game we played; both, like me, GM more than they play, and both hated the chase mechanic as portrayed by that GM in that game. I tried, only partially successfully, to explain that the way that GM explained it, which was as a "metaphysical representation of the action" was actually incorrect - that chases were supposed to be based on real distances and relative speeds and stuff, though apparently the module does recommend laying out the flowchart on the table, which I do think is a mistake.
So, for you, it's not the mechanics, as such ('Old man with wheelbarrow of fish; make DC10 Acrobatics check, or lose 20 feet of ground, fail by 5 or more and stink of haddock all day. Get followed home by 2d10 cats.'), but the act of laying the cards down for all to see that breaks the fourth wall?
If so, would that change if they stayed out of the players' sight, on the other side of the screen? As GMs, we're used to the fourth wall being a fragile construct at best.
I just wasn't clear, I guess. I actually intend to use the chase mechanic, because I do like it, but I will never use the chase cards because they break the immersion.So, for you, it's not the mechanics, as such ('Old man with wheelbarrow of fish; make DC10 Acrobatics check, or lose 20 feet of ground, fail by 5 or more and stink of haddock all day. Get followed home by 2d10 cats.'), but the act of laying the cards down for all to see that breaks the fourth wall?
If so, would that change if they stayed out of the players' sight, on the other side of the screen? As GMs, we're used to the fourth wall being a fragile construct at best.
It would absolutely change, just like saying "You see an orc with three levels of fighter" is different than saying "You see a particularly brawny orc, who gives you the impression that he's good with a sword." Especially since I would never actually say the game mechanics as portrayed above. I might say, for example, "Your way is blocked by an old man with a wheelbarrow of fish; he'll be out of your way in a round or two, but you think you might be able to jump it on the run without too much difficulty," and that last bit only as a nod to the chase mechanics - technically it's not necessary.
Just because the mechanics are there doesn't mean I want to read them like boxed text - I prefer to let the players choose their action and then adjudicate what they've chosen to do.
In this specific case, I would actually buy the PDF for it just so I could read the chase, but it's not available until 2012.
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I get you; I'd always use a flavour description, over dry math formula.
A problem I sometimes find is in giving the players meaningful risk assessments; if I say "That looks a difficult climb.", am I speaking objectively? Or subjectively? To the whole party? Or to one player?
I will inevitably get a response like "Difficult for me?" (High-Int Rogue with skills to burn) "Or him?" (Strong guy, few skill points, in full-plate) "Or to an untrained peasant?" (No mods)
I have a choice of going round the table, trying to remember everybody's bonuses ("Well, you would probably find it easy, you would have trouble, you would....errr...did you cast Bull Strength on him?). Even that is unsatisfactory, since players have different tolerance for risk. My 'middling' could be someone else's 'easy', and a third person's 'hard'.
Or I can let slip the odd DC, so the players know what ball park they're in.
It's no skin off my nose; as GM, you shatter the fourth wall the moment you read or prep the adventure, but you learn to view the crunch and the fluff simultaneously, like staring at a Magic Eye 3D picture, and some players have learned to do the same.
Sample cards look awesome, this is must-have product to me!
I like these, though I hope the checked borders aren't there. I'd rather have something more... chasey. Keep in mind they'll be laid out for the group to see, and having something gaudy or what have you... meh. If it's in a row, and minis are being placed on each on every step of the way, they should look good for that. Granted, they'll have to fit a number of genres at once (ie: drow chases, city chases, forest chases, dungeon chases, etc.), so I don't know how they'd design that.
I'm guessing the checked borders are pre-print, I hope. I like how Pathfinder has stayed generally theatrical rather than showy in their design choices. It helps groups get into character, I think.
I like the Chase rules a lot, though. The idea of designing a game around encounters is a good bit of GMery; and I think this is like a sort of mini-boardgame that looks neat. It's already got me thinking...
These are really clever!
These are really clever!
+1
Thats the first thing I thought of when I saw this advertised. Looks neat though.
MD
Honestly I recently ran CotCT #1 and used the chase rules from it. I loved them, and wished I had a better looking setup so that they weren't so homely. I really like the premise of this product and the fact that it's so varied in terrain options. I cannot wait to pick it up. There are so many good card sets coming out lately I really want its staggering.
For those who don't want game rules items like this to break immersion, why not use them in your planning? "I want them to chase the barbarian through the jungle for 12 rounds before he gets away, random shuffling Okay these 12 cards are my chase" jots down mechanics as laid out on cards "OK time to add descriptors.."
Looks great!
Any chance of seeing this as a mobile App like the Critical Hit/Miss decks?
My players LOVE these cards during a chase. Much better than the 3x5 cards I was using. Gives a nice visual to the obstacles.
Need more types of chases! And expand the selection of cards for the existing chases!
Hope they come out with an expanded line of these soon. That way we could shuffle all the urban cards (if there were enough to do that) together and get a random chase! Challenge for the player and DM if the NPCs roll too!
Kizan
Looks great!
Any chance of seeing this as a mobile App like the Critical Hit/Miss decks?
A chase app with in-app purchase of additional chase card sets and additional chase types! Maybe some custom card types!
Very cool idea!
Kizan
So, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but the chase rules were tweaked in the instructions for these cards.
A character who wants to attempt to move three cards during his turn can do so by taking a full-round action. That character must overcome both obstacles on the card he is leaving.
As a full-round action, a chase participant can attempt to move two cards forward. When doing so, he chooses two obstacles -- one on his starting card, and one on the next card -- and attempts checks against these obstacles as part of the full-round action.
This makes a lot more sense -- instead of simultaneously taking a slippery path around a pond and swimming across it and somehow teleporting across a crowded marketplace as a result, the PC either Swims or Acrobatics and then either, say, Intimidates or Overruns the crowd to end up at the same place. Is there any intention to errata the chase rules in general to match the cards?
Ennie-Awards 2012:
Best Aid/Accessory
GameMastery Chase Cards (Paizo Publishing) *Silver Winner*
I wonder why Paizo doesn't promote his winners with these awards...
We created a whole category on our store to collect all of the past winners. :)
Used it last night to great avail, and on the fly. Good product, not always useful, but good when you need it.
Are these sanctioned for Pathfinder Society?
