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Taergan Flinn

knightnday's page

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 1,266 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Sex is not the only thing that can occur. Romance, intrigue and so on are part of all this as well. What you may consider a no-no and a PROBLEM other people enjoy discussing or having in their games.

Throttle back on the rhetoric. There is no One True Way of playing or GMing.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I confess that I cannot stand aasimars. I think they're the very definition of a Mary Sue race. It's somewhat telling, I think, that the only aasimar I've ever found interesting is an NPC who was driven to villainry by the "so perfect it's a curse" device. Good aasimars can exist, but it's entirely in spite of the race design. No joke, aasimars are my kender.

I don't like dhampirs either, but that's only because I've only ever seen them played as annoying broody Cullens. The elemental planetouched are pretty much just uninteresting to me—they don't feel like four distinct races, more like four subraces off of one actual species. I probably wouldn't mind them if the Bestiary 2 acknowledged this. They just aren't interesting enough to carry four separate statblocks.

Tieflings are okay. I don't love them, but I don't dislike them, either. There's nothing inherently bad about the race.

Oddly, I am just reversed on it. I intensely dislike Tieflings. I do agree about dhampirs and more so. I just feels like a way to let people play vampires without actually letting them play vampires. Meh.


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HWalsh wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
I guess you are advocating that we should have all moved on from pathfinder by now.

Its not a matter of "moved on" Rhedyn - Roleplaying Games are not competitive MMOs where everyone should be concerned with "hitting their benchmarks" as it were.

RPGs are about a player playing a character.

If Ringlefoot the Halfling Rogue wants to drop a few skill points in Perform because his player rationalizes that he would have picked up some sweet dance moves, and maybe he should spend less points in Stealth even though that means less opportunities to use his sneak attack... He shouldn't be seen as a lump because he's not optimized.

Edit:

Note:
And I, as Ringlefoot's GM, am also obligated to take that into consideration and eventually have a space in the game where Ringlefoot's dancing experience comes into play.

That is part of what being a GM is about.

Please stop being on my side.


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Anzyr wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:
Last thing I want is for the rules to be determined by a vocal minority.
I personally believe the rules of anything should always be determined by a minority that is well versed in them. I'd rather have experts making rules then lay people. Allowing a majority to decide the rules of anything is nothing but mob rule.

I think that is what we've got now, a group of experts making rules. It's the other experts that disagree with them where the problem lies.


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Lord Mhoram wrote:

I like my version of the game.

I use a lot of Paizo material, but I probably use more 3PP material in my game, with some house rules. Paizo just happens to be the publisher I have the largest material from. The core game gives me a great base to work with to get things the way I like them. Things happen in the rules I don't like, I ignore. Errata happens I don't like I ignore. New book comes out with a class I don't like, I don't use it. To me, every rule including the Core rulebook is optional.

The game is my game - that is how I treat all RPGs. The rulebooks give me the tools and framework to run MY game. If it is "pure" pathfinder, or something unrecognizable aside from core mechanics and names to someone else makes no difference to me.

Gah! Get out of my head!

I had a response I was muddling through, but frankly this sums up a great deal of it. :)


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Chris Lambertz wrote:

To take this in a slightly different direction, I have some questions for you guys from purely a site structure/community team standpoint:

- Does having more accessible and visible introductions to our new design/development staff sound like something you want? (Either through our blog via tags or maybe our contact page?) Is there something we can do to the forums themselves to make employees more visible?

- How would you prefer to see new FAQs communicated to the community? Is that in the form of a blog series, or is it a series of threads?

- Knowing how we've handled errata up until now, what would you change? If it's a blog, what general information would you like to see us include?

- Let's assume the PRD is a blank slate and we can have any unicorn we want, how would you invision errata being notated here?

- Are versioned PDFs a thing you'd use and want?

- Polls have been mentioned here, and in the past we've done a *couple* playtest surveys. If we did have polls, what do you invision them being used for? What kind of content justifies a poll versus a feedback thread in your mind?

* It would be nice, yes, to know who people are and hear a bit about them. I remember the old pages in the Dragon where we got to meet the people behind the scenes, was always interesting. Add in ways to bribe them as well. ;)

*Blog, stickied thread, giant bolded letters. Any way to let people know it exists.

*A blog post explaining why it was changed or altered would go a long way towards a look behind the scenes and what measure of balance, gameplay, or whatever are being taken into account.

*Bolded or another color, even a link to a secondary document.

*Yes

*I'm less interested in polls; it might give an idea of what some of the more active members of the community think, but that doesn't reflect some who are less frequent or reluctant to put themselves forth. Maybe if you made it anonymous that might make people a little more willing.


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Malwing wrote:

I've been contemplating making a thread titled, "Do you like this game?", mostly because of the threads, starting from 3.0 days apparently, about the same problems. All this doomsaying is happening while the system as a whole has been thriving for over a decade rocked the entire RPG market twice and spawning so many clones, all while similar games that supposedly don't have these problems exist in a huge number. It makes it hard to know how to feel when the fans of the game say that the developers don't know what they're doing. Especially when I'm over here happily playing my games without the system self destructing every FAQ update. In the meantime the people that refuse to play Pathfinder have 'hostile online community' as their #2 reason to stay away from the game.

I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with the ACG situation, and I'll say that caster/martial disparity exists (although stopped existing in my games a while ago) but I have no where near the anger and disappointment I see on these boards or reason to start accusing the developers of having some sort of agenda against us. Yeah the ACG is a mess and now post-eratta my book is pretty useless but I do think they're trying the best they can but made a lot of mistakes in that book. I'd like to turn in my book for a discount on the second printing but its not a jump ship situation for me. I haven't noticed any real glitches in Occult Adventures so far so I feel like the ACG is a bad blip on the track record and nothing more.

And its not like I don't have the tools to jump ship if I wanted to. On my shelf is 5th edition, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Fate, Fudge, Mutants and Masterminds, 13th age and True 20. In the case of 5th edition I know for a fact that its fairly easy to play adventure paths using 5th ed. I'm playing a game where that is happening right now. But I've been preferring Pathfinder and playing Pathfinder and liking Pathfinder, and buying Pathfinder.

We also have a very vocal developer base that communicate with us on a daily...

Thread created HERE.

Hope you don't mind, Malwing, but I'd like to hear a bit on the topic.


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Malwing wrote:

I've been contemplating making a thread titled, "Do you like this game?", mostly because of the threads, starting from 3.0 days apparently, about the same problems. All this doomsaying is happening while the system as a whole has been thriving for over a decade rocked the entire RPG market twice and spawning so many clones, all while similar games that supposedly don't have these problems exist in a huge number. It makes it hard to know how to feel when the fans of the game say that the developers don't know what they're doing. Especially when I'm over here happily playing my games without the system self destructing every FAQ update. In the meantime the people that refuse to play Pathfinder have 'hostile online community' as their #2 reason to stay away from the game.

I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with the ACG situation, and I'll say that caster/martial disparity exists (although stopped existing in my games a while ago) but I have no where near the anger and disappointment I see on these boards or reason to start accusing the developers of having some sort of agenda against us. Yeah the ACG is a mess and now post-eratta my book is pretty useless but I do think they're trying the best they can but made a lot of mistakes in that book. I'd like to turn in my book for a discount on the second printing but its not a jump ship situation for me. I haven't noticed any real glitches in Occult Adventures so far so I feel like the ACG is a bad blip on the track record and nothing more.

And its not like I don't have the tools to jump ship if I wanted to. On my shelf is 5th edition, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Fate, Fudge, Mutants and Masterminds, 13th age and True 20. In the case of 5th edition I know for a fact that its fairly easy to play adventure paths using 5th ed. I'm playing a game where that is happening right now. But I've been preferring Pathfinder and playing Pathfinder and liking Pathfinder, and buying Pathfinder.

We also have a very vocal developer base that communicate with us on a daily basis. Big names that have been around in the industry for years and yet we're not satisfied and need more so we can yell at them online as much as we want to.

Thread created because I find the entry intriguing and I'd like to know. And I'd prefer that the thread is positive in nature. We have enough negativity on the boards. If you need a negative thread, make one yourself. :)

My own answers to come as I consider this over dinner.


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Hargert wrote:
Unless something is a outright problem or miss print things should stay as published. Having so many different versions out in the wild are a pain in the butt. You also fall into what pathfinder started out to not do...make books obsolete. Originally it was you could use your 3.5 books. If something is a little over the top unless it is game breaking let it be. If you feel there are so many issues that need correcting then maybe it is time to go back to the drawing board and use all the lessons learned and do Pathfinder version 2. Do not try to build a system that is free from cheese and exploits of the power gamers that path has been tried and that is what led you to making Pathfinder in the first place.

Problem with that is what is an outright problem? To who? There are "outright problems" and "broken" material that people don't agree on. Paizo clearly thinks some things were broken or needed tweaking, and others don't. Some people believe that things are broken or need tweaking and Paizo doesn't. Who gets to decide?


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Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
It would be nice if Paizo could start posting "updates" on the erratas so we know where they're at and where they're heading.
A simple blog post detailing some of the more in depth changes (witch doctor, Wyroot, paragon surge even) when errata comes out would be really nice.

I agree, it would be nice to have some background on why the changes were made and what the mindset is on the changes.

That said, given threads like these and others (Crane Wing comes to mind) they may be waiting for the villagers to stop waving pitchforks and torches around before trying to talk to the masses.

Someone upthread -- Lemmy I think -- said something to the effect of when you don't think they hear you that you start yelling (I'm typing from memory, so forgive me if I misquote Lemmy). The issue is that there is a lot of yelling right now and dire predictions of just never playing again and how this is all horrible.

Maybe they are looking back over the errata or maybe they aren't. They aren't keeping us up to date on what they are doing, which is a bit troublesome, but the posts keep coming and the bile continues to build. I'd suggest -- and be ignored -- that people should take a breath and relax and try to address it with a bit calmer voice after GenCon. I seriously doubt you'll get a post or reaction other than locked threads until after they get back.

Edit: And Chris ninjas me, so maybe you will get a reaction. I still suggest calm.


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Labels are a difficult thing to deal with, and yes, they can be used to stifle discussion. The problem is that people on all sides believe that their side is often the one being stifled or misrepresented or going unheard. For instance, there are many with a conservative mindset on the forums that feel their posts are unfairly targeted.

And we won't mention the venom contained in the phrase "White straight cis male". I keep a squeegee nearby on a bad day.

In discussions like this one, where the topic is how do you handle these topics, it is important IMO to listen to people who may not handle it the way that others do. Not everyone is open or possibly out of the closet, not everyone's group believes the same way and not everyone feels comfortable with the same things.

Some people feel far more at home discussing disemboweling goblins than discussing relationships or whose wee wee goes where.


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137ben wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Don't use the errata.

Unless you know what the rules said pre-errata, this idea isn't always feasible. If different group members own different printings of a book, or don't own it at all and use the srd, the errata document doesn't always give enough information to 'reverse engineer' the errata and figure out what the 1st printing rules were.

I've considered tracking all errata and putting 'anti-errata house rules' in my house rules document...but that means I have to keep track of all the errata when I didn't want to use it to begin with just so I can tell players what not to use. And that's assuming I have access to the first printing of every book to begin with, which I don't. The extra hurdles involved in 'not using errata' are what ultimately convinced me to stop running pathfinder.

Now, one idea I've suggested in the past was that Paizo could sell PDF versions of earlier printings. That way, any GM who doesn't want to deal with the continually changing rulebooks can just say "first printings only". Any player who doesn't own the first printing can just put down 10 bucks for a PDF of the first printing core rulebook/whatever book they are looking for. Paizo gets more money selling PDFs that they already have, and people who don't want to use errata can avoid doing so much more easily.

But unless and until Paizo implements my idea, not using errata requires tracking down old printings of hardcovers which become increasingly difficult to find the more time passes. Particularly for books which have gone through several heavy revisions like the Core Rulebook.

This is why you always get a 1st edition when you can! ;)

More seriously, I agree with your suggestion that the pre-errata material should be available somewhere. If Paizo isn't interested in the PDF idea, perhaps the approved websites can host the material? It isn't like they aren't keeping the latest around anyway.


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Don't use the errata. If/when you play in PFS, consider it house rules just like you might playing with any new table.


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That is the danger with threads of this ilk, much like politics, racism and religion. People are often unable to leave 2015 Earth aside and talk about the issues through the lens of the game world -- whichever game that is being played.

An online Shadowrun game I was a part of had a similar problem with racism -- the Shadowrun material is filled with racism which colors the game -- where players couldn't bring themselves to be racist in game because it is not something that one should do in 2015.

I do not believe anyone on the thread is attempting to make anyone feel bad. I also believe that one needs to take care of oneself and stay away from things that might be triggering or upsetting; I try to stay away from threads that I know will upset me. It isn't worth even reading, you know?


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Kalindlara wrote:

Just a note on "fights to the death": I don't have a quote right off the bat, but I believe it's been said that the reason was word count/page space. It's an easy entry for a GM to tweak, and it saves space for more flavorful info.

That said, I seem to recall James Jacobs saying that they were trying to get more varied about that sort of thing. I'm not as sure on that one, though...

I've said this on another thread in the past, but let's slap that extra material up on the site as a freebie. Put extraneous and extra information in a supplement to the AP for those that are interested in expanding in some way.


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While I appreciate Paizo's use of diverse characters, I tend to change things up a bit if I use Golarion in games. There isn't a great deal of information about how things are taken in all areas, so I put spins on places and governments with regard to sex, gender, religion and the like. If everything is A-OK everywhere, regardless of the region, that makes it seem very bland and one-note to me.

Still, it always depends on what your table is interested in as well.


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I'd like to see a book regarding customs and information of the Inner Sea (and elsewhere) that builds off the various region books and expands on it. toss in romance, religion, recipes and other things of a non-fighting nature and I'd find it much more entertaining and useful than another book of things to kill.


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I suppose you could find your GM's vice and ply them with that?


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When I was courting my wife, one of the presents I got her was a Precious Moments set called "I Love You Knight and Day". It was a play on her name -- Dayna -- and the fact that I play RPGs and like knights, was her knight in shining armour, etc.

When we created several online identities together we started using knightnday.

The icon was one that a lot of people weren't using since the last one I had became more popular.


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With any of this you have to take your players into consideration. There are some that are not willing to deal with some of the intricacies of gender and sex without the usual assortment of jokes and humor, others that will see it as trying to insert real world politics and problems into a game of hack and slash, and others that want to focus overly much on the topic as a proxy to what they cannot solve in real life -- I've had the last on the topic, on drugs (one more argument about the merits of marijuana would probably have put me in the insane asylum), women's rights in a fantasy setting and so on.

I try to work out a lot of these things in my notes and either ramp down or up how much the players know about it based on their interests and ability to handle the topic maturely.


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It's pretty much the usual story: if you want to fall back on "I am just playing my character" be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions and choices.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Yeah. That puzzles me, though. House rule it and save the energy for something more useful, like mowing the lawn or washing dishes. If they are not interested in changing their minds, slamming your head into a wall doesn't impress the wall and leaves you with a soft head. :)
Which would work better if there was not a distinct, statistically observed tendency for people who don't believe the house ruling is needed to derail the house rule threads. :P

Yes, people are often problematic. There is not much we can do about invading other threads, anymore than we can limit issue threads to less than a handful.


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Yeah. That puzzles me, though. House rule it and save the energy for something more useful, like mowing the lawn or washing dishes. If they are not interested in changing their minds, slamming your head into a wall doesn't impress the wall and leaves you with a soft head. :)


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
*Insert obligatory martials cant have nice things post*

With the news that Pummeling Style getting nerfed hardcore, I am really beginning to wish the devs would listen to the large number of people unhappy with martials continuously being depowered while spellcasters go unmolested.

I'd start a new thread about it, but recent history indicates it would be locked the 2nd page in.

It would be locked. They are very sensitive to criticisms.

Well, that and repeated criticism on the same topic. They don't seem to agree with the large number of people -- however large that might be -- that aren't happy with their choices. It doesn't pay to continue the conversation.


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In general it has as much or little weight as anything else in my games. When world building I will usually have notes on how the various kingdoms/race/whatever handles the topic, but other than that it isn't made the center of the campaign nor swept under the rug.

The only time it really became a big thing was a game I ran with a number of LBGT players who were interested in crusading against a government that was not friendly to the cause. It started getting a bit too uncomfortable as things went along, as they started bleeding real life issues into the game and fighting among themselves. We had to wrap up after that.


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Shadowrun's various versions use a system where you take damage from casting. Pretty much each spell has a code of how hard it is to resist taking damage from the spell and how much it does. It could be adapted with some work.

In the past, I've used spell points, limited magic, constitution damage and other limiters on spell casters. They have worked to varying effects and definitely gave the game a different feel than bog standard D&D or Pathfindner.


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Recently I have seen threads closed with messages that roughly say something to the effect that "this doesn't help make the sort of community that we want to encourage here at Paizo." I can totally stand behind this message -- the world can be a pretty crappy place, why should the place that we talk about happy fun games be that way. No no problem there.

However -- and it is with some trepidation I mention this -- I would encourage the staff of the game that posts to reflect on their posts. With some alarming frequency, there have been a number of posts from some members with the little golem next to their name and actual titles that are -- well, not nice. Not civil. Dismissive, aggressive, derogatory, confrontational, or just unnecessary.

I understand that people are people, even if they work for the company, and that there are subjects that people feel passionate about. That said, it may be the gamer in me but I would like to think that we should all be playing by the same set of rules. If a guest can't (and shouldn't) be talking like that on the boards, I do not believe that the staff should either. Otherwise, it looks bad you know?

I'm not asking for anyone to be punished or pointed out. I'm asking that staffers consider that the little flag next to their name denoting that they work for Paizo comes with some responsibility to control their temper and moderate their tone at least as well as we ask the guests here. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you for your time.


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I really enjoy world creation. I'll gladly putter around with that and it can often be more fun than actually playing/GMing.


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trollbill wrote:
Mark Stratton wrote:

Again, this places the burden on someone OTHER than the owner of the book. In this case, the LGS would bear the burden of doing the work of registering the book, keep a sheet of labels, etc. For that reason alone I would oppose it - anything that transfers the responsibility from the player to some other entity is unlikely to get my support (and many others, I would imagine.)

The entire point of this thread is that the burden on the owner of the book is too high. There are only 2 ways to fix this:

1) Relax the current rules
2) Place the burden on someone other than the book owner.

So if you are against solutions that put the burden on someone else then you are essentially against solving the problem.

I do not understand why some people simply do not understand how incredibly galling it is to pay good money for a product only to be told that product is worthless unless they pay via either additional money or additional effort or both, to prove that they bought the product. THE BURDEN SHOULD NOT BE ON THE CUSTOMER! As loyal customers we are willing to accept some burden, but Paizo is the one insisting on us supplying the proof so it is Paizo's responsibility to come up with a reasonable solution that does not overly burden the customer.

Now before someone decides to point out that there are 2 problems here, i.e. providing rules for the GM and providing proof of ownership, let me dispel that illusion. Rules can be supplied via photocopies. This was allowed previously and was a reasonable burden to put on the customer. And while they can be altered, so can .pdfs. So there is a reasonable solution to the Rules issue. So the real problem is the proof of ownership issue.

I agree with some of what you are saying with the exception of the product being worthless. You do not have to purchase the pdfs; you have to carry the books that you require for your characters. That's the "price" we pay for playing in PFS, the say way that you have to have and paint your armies for those games.

The "burden" here is the desire to not carry as much. For some people I can certainly understand -- there are those with significant health problems that make it unsuitable. I'd like to see a solution found primarily for those people.

But not wanting to carry the books is far from a burden that is somehow Paizo's fault.


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What confuses me is that people seem against the idea in general that a trans* individual, or gay, or whatever is represented in the material at all, as if it will rub off on you through the paper or somehow influence your game or thoughts.

If you don't like or want something, change it. It takes literally seconds and you move on. I've had all female groups in the past that were interested in relationships with NPCs and have happily swapped genders where appropriate to the characters and players alike.

As said above by Rednal, I'm quite happy that Paizo tries to include representatives of many individuals in their material. It helps inclusiveness, it might open some eyes, and it helps set up their world as a living thing and not a reproduction of what might be seen in many traditional fantasy books/movies/shows.


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Did I miss some postings or has anyone outside of DrDeth said anything about being an "OG"? I mean, I've seen people saying I've played since X years or Y box, but no one saying that they mowed Gygax's yard and was rewarded by him GMing a game for them, or having claimed to have written something for Chainmail.


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Woo, explosive runes makes an appearance!


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
knightnday wrote:
What my vaunted years of experience have given me isn't rules knowledge, necessarily, but more the ability to draw from countless sessions and know how to think on my feet. I may not always draw the exact correct rule or page number, but I can come up with a rule (drawn from PF, another edition, or another game system entirely) and keep the game moving with a minimum of grinding to a halt while we dredge through books for a half-forgotten rule that amounts to a random plus or minus here or there.
This isn't an age-related thing. There are plenty of GMs out there with sufficient rules understanding to 'wing it' in this manner without decades of experience or experience in multiple editions.

This is very true. Not everyone learns the same way or processes things the same.


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What my vaunted years of experience have given me isn't rules knowledge, necessarily, but more the ability to draw from countless sessions and know how to think on my feet. I may not always draw the exact correct rule or page number, but I can come up with a rule (drawn from PF, another edition, or another game system entirely) and keep the game moving with a minimum of grinding to a halt while we dredge through books for a half-forgotten rule that amounts to a random plus or minus here or there.

The second is the wisdom to know that people are going to disagree with me, especially on the internet. People would disagree with Gary if he showed up, so I don't sweat it and I suggest others don't. If they are throwing around their virtual experience as weight, so what? It doesn't mean that you have to listen to them or do what they say.

Everyone's game is their own; this arguing on the boards is an amusing pass time at best between gaming sessions in my mind. If someone disagrees with me, eh. My wife disagrees with me all the time and I don't lose sleep over that.


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thejeff wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
MeanDM wrote:
I'm not sure a thread calling out a whole subset of the boards is healthy for the positive vibe Paizo wants and deserves on their boards. Remember this space doubles as advertising for them...
It's only addressed at the oldschoolers who try to abuse false seniority. There are a number of old timers on these boards who don't do that.

It's hard for some to tell who that is though. Is it everyone who's mentioned that they started playing X decades ago?

I'm sure some of the people you're thinking of think to themselves "I never abuse it. He can't mean me."
And some who you're fine with are wondering if you're talking about them.

It's me. They are totally talking about me.


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Rysky wrote:
124. Taking a drink from someone else's beverage without their permission, immediately spitting out what was drunk and claiming how disgusting said drink is, then pouring out said drink.

128. Using dip or chewing tobacco and spitting into an unmarked cup or can, then leaving such around. Double booting if you use the same sort of can/receptacle as everyone else at the table. Triple if someone accidentally drinks it.

Based on real life events.


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thejeff wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
knightnday wrote:
So you are in effect saying that people are lying about how long they have been playing? I mean, yeah, not all of us were baking cookies for Gary for the first game, but it really isn't hard to have been playing for X amount of time. It's a matter of being alive and having run across the game. I'm curious what "proof" you'd be interested in?

NO, I'm not accusing anyone of lying.

I'm just saying, when I look at who was originally playing, and all those who CLAIM it, the numbers don't add up.

You have numbers of people who have been playing RPGs from all over the world?

I think he's talking about the "originals". Like those who played in Gary's first groups and the like. Maybe up to those who started with OD&D before Advanced or Basic came out. Which is still a fairly small number, but guessing by what little I know of print runs at least in the 10s of thousands, so it would be hard to say the numbers don't add up.

Even so, I'd say that most of those talking about their long experience are probably not talking about OD&D, but AD&D, which can still be nearly 40 years now. And there were a lot of people playing that. Probably more then than are playing RPGs now, so it doesn't really make any sense to talk about those numbers not adding up.

Yeah. I have not seen anyone claiming to be one of the original gamers or whatever. But when you start saying that the numbers don't add up and whatever, you are effectively calling people liars. That's sort of how the language works.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

I've only been gaming for about 5 years, and I've played in three different systems.

I think there are some merits to the old geezers experiences when it comes to insight on the game's evolution and understanding why certain things work the way they do.

Haste not granting a second standard action for example.

That said, it is also really disrespectful when someone with mroe experience than you acts as if you don't have the right to speak to them because they have gamed so much longer than you have. Elitism is absolutely the right word for it. It really has nothing to do with what edition was being played, but rather with the mindset of older gamers.

Old geezers. Old farts. Isn't it interesting that we've been seeing that throughout the thread, but precious little of "young punks" or "little $&#+s"?

I'll agree it has to do with mindset and disrespect. A lot of that is fueled by talking over this new fangled computer stuff. Face to face people are forced to be a bit more understanding and willing to compromise on ideas or at least wait till someone is not in front of them to disparage them.

No one gets to disrespect the other based on years of playing or not playing. There are people that have been playing for 40 years that I think are wrong, and those that have been playing for a few that I think are right -- depending on the topic.

I take what you say and process it against my experiences, like we all do. If you are feeling offended because someone older/with more experience or younger/with less experiences holds an opinion, it is there age/experience that you have a problem with or the opinion?

Grey Wolflord wrote:

I can't say I'm one of the original gamers but I DO have all the books back to ODD in checking what they originally said!

I also know some of the original gamers!

But here's the kicker...there seem to be more people who claim to be original gamers than there actually WERE original gamers from what I've seen.

How does that happen?!

On a side note, I don't know how many original gamers are here, but there's only one that I believe I might verify/back up that they were at least around near the beginning of the game...

At least that I'm able to verify/back up with any general ability of my own, not because I knew them personally right now but because I know what they participated in (and even created).

On a much sadder note, the original gamers of the older generation are dying off rather quickly, those who were kids at the time are still around though.

So you are in effect saying that people are lying about how long they have been playing? I mean, yeah, not all of us were baking cookies for Gary for the first game, but it really isn't hard to have been playing for X amount of time. It's a matter of being alive and having run across the game. I'm curious what "proof" you'd be interested in?


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maybe you guys just play differently and no one is wrong.


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It's not even a matter of the systems changing or not changing. Many of the same arguments have been coming up over and over and over again over the years, for this game and others. This is why people are often saying, "Oh good, this argument again?"

Merit in the conversations is what you make of it. Someone tossing in a line about how long they have played, or the number of games, or that they were college roommates with Gygax and actually invented the game while he was in the bathroom are as much or as little noise as anything else. I'd rather see the constant use of fallacy and straw man and a few other phrases taken out back and given the Ol' Yeller treatment.

Everyone has something that annoys them. People aren't going to stop using fallacy to appease me. I doubt anyone is going to stop referring to their experience.


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Snowblind wrote:
Ghostwasp wrote:
The reason people list how long they have played or what their experience is because there is literally no other metric in which to measure someones ability or knowledge of the game. You can say all you want that you know every rule, but on a forum that means nothing since you have all the time you want to look up rules. When trying to decide between to opinions who would you rather listen to, the guy who has stayed with the game for over 5 editions of the game or the one who thinks that they can "fix" Pathfinder after playing it for a few years.

How about you listen to the opinions and judge for yourself which one holds more merit based on their individual upsides and downsides.

Besides, the more experienced guy should be able to justify their position a lot better than the new guy. If they can't, then that is a really bad sign.

Yes and no. There are plenty of people with experience that cannot verbalize it very well.

None of this really matters and is sort of getting bent out of shape over nothing. It's the internet, where everyone has six opinions on every topic. If you don't like that someone says "back in my day we used to blah blah blah", scroll down to the next person who will have something else to say. They may not use their age or years of experience to illustrate why their idea is better/different than someone else's, but I'm sure they'll add in some other qualifier.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
Yea i mean... Im only 22. Some people have been playing D&D for longer than I have been alive. But I hate when my age seems to invalidate me because some old fart played first edition.

I don't think your age invalidates you or makes them some sort of game saint.

Listen, I've been driving longer than you've been alive. That doesn't mean I am a better driver. It means I've been driving longer than you've been alive. That's it. If you ask me about certain things about driving, like bad weather or what-ifs, I can speak with a certain amount of experience regarding what I've seen and done. But I am not a font of all knowledge regarding automobiles.

The same goes with any of this. There are people that have been playing longer than I have that have almost no clue about the game, and those that have been playing a short amount of time that are rules marvels.

Don't let someone else's experience color your perceptions of your own. If they have been playing for 40 years, that means they have been alive a while and yes, they may have a few more stories under their belt than you. But that doesn't make them better than you.

And the same goes the other way. They may be "old farts" since you are a young whippersnapper, but that doesn't mean all their experiences are invalid since they didn't grow up on a steady diet of computer games and digimon or whatever it is that people do these days. ;)


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R_Chance wrote:
I think generalization is a problem. About players. I've played D&D since 1974. Every version except 4E (I read it and decided to stick with 3.5), and, of course, Pathfinder. Among many other games. I manage to talk about it without, I think, being too annoying. There are grumpy, argumentative, dogmatic players of every age, play style and level of experience around here. Still not as many as on other sites I know.

Pretty much this. I try not to mention how long I've played, although it has come up now and then. It's a part of me, like being right handed or having watched certain movies or having grown up in places. It means as much or as little as any of the rest of that. It gives a certain level of experience, brought on no doubt by age as well, but it doesn't invalidate anyone else's experience or age.

It's as much justification I suppose as anything else people can use as a measuring stick for the opinions. I'm not sure what else you'd suggest?


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Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle

I'll be waiting for those gods RAW stat blocks.

WBL does not work like that. It is not a hard cap on GP your character can carry or equip. That being said his gear is all purchased via WBL as part of character creation (where it is a rule) using the Ultimate Campaign Rules that grant an additional 25% WBL per Crafting Feat to a max of 50%, which Arkalion has thanks to Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item.

His Diplomacy is +32. With Moment of Prescience that comes to +57. If he decides to use Paragon Surge to acquire Additional Traits to gain Clever Wordplay and Extremely Fashionable, then his bonus is +72. And before you ask all his traits are different types.

Finally, I haven't ignored any GM discretionary element that actually is discretionary. Hence, my alternate plan should the GM say Contact Other Plane fails.

You'll be waiting a long time on the gods stat blocks, as you know. The closest we've seen to god powers appears in one of the APs. Well, and the various books where we see just what the gods can do when they set their mind to it. If they can imprison one of their own, I'm sure they can do the same for a mortal.

And yes, this character was built without GM discretion as far as I can find from posting history. No one has "signed off" on all of this; it is a fanfic with some stats thrown together.


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What he believes is their own good may or may not be what the people believe. He is removing their choice in the matter: they may actually want to go to Heaven, or Hell, or whatever they believe takes place when they die. Though Arkalion doesn't like this happening, this doesn't invalidate their choices.


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This all operates with two problems

1. The GM apparently has no say, no control, and no voice in all of this.

2. It presumes that because something does not have stats, and you cannot kill it, it cannot kill you. As I recall, the players have a brief contact with a god in one of the APs and if they even give her the slightest lip they get blinded, deafened, and dropkicked back to their home plane. I assume that is the writers being polite and restrained.

The actions may have some neutral in them, but there is some chaos and evil as well.


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Anzyr's synopsis taken from the original thread wrote:

I actually had a premise for my character. Basically, he dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls. He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed.

This leads to one of the tactics he was going to use being called "Prison of Past Regrets", but alas it won't see use.

Bolded for emphasis. Governed by Arkalion seems to indicate for his own benefit. Depriving other Gods of worshipers and souls weakens them and perhaps increases the power of the Grand Cycle -- and I can only assume that there is a way that power can be used or bring one into being a God in the end. All of that seems to be for his benefit.

Whether the character convinces someone to give up their version of Heaven to go through this cycle or forces it upon them -- and if they refuse the "sandwich", they were given no choice as I recall -- they are having their choices and free will suppressed.


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And doing it for your own gain, I might add, as you mentioned before about this character wanting to replace a God. Though how they haven't stopped this by now ..


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Tormsskull wrote:
I will be interested to see if this thread get locked with the same rationale of "Calling out people is not acceptible."

Hopefully not. This issue is far more wide-spread than one person's character. We have seen similar conversations crop up around the chaotic neutral alignment, paladin threads and more.

It's easy to say that your character isn't evil or chaotic crazy or that your lawful good paladin would totally slaughter the innocents of an evil race. But should your opinion matter or should that of your fellow players and observers? After all, I don't think that Asmodeus believes he is doing evil or that mobsters, for example, believe what they are doing is wrong.


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Spin off thread at On the nature of Evil.

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