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Darius Finch

knightnday's page

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 899 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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thejeff wrote:
voideternal wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I'm still curious what this game of Pathfinder with no fluff whatsoever looks like.

I imagine it to look like the Core Rulebook with every fluff-description of any kind of game mechanic keyword replaced with variable names.

Instead of "Class" you would say "X1"
Instead of "Attack roll", you would say "Y3"
Instead of "AC", you would say, "B5"

Here's an example of a game:
GM: A, C3, C1, D4, P0 Q3?
A: Y3 15 *rolls d20* 28 O4.
GM: *rolls d20* M T13.
C3: Q8 *rolls d20* I5 D1. *rolls d6*

I would not call the above game Pathfinder. Heck, I would not call it a game, because there's no clear win state. Would you?

I could see, barely, running combats like that. I couldn't see running a game like that. There's stuff in between the combats - even if it's just dressing to set up the fights, but that's all fluff.

Edit: That's actually a little farther than I'd go. "Attack roll" and "AC" are mechanics terms. Those would be okay. But you wouldn't be wielding any particular kind of weapon or wearing any specific armor - though it would still have AC bonus, check penalty, weight and all the other mechanics definitions.

While I can respect that there are people that wouldn't mind a mechanics-only game, I'd be run out of the house if I ran a game like that. My wife has a degree in mathematics and she looked at this and told me that if I left out the story and descriptive elements she'd do unspeakable things to me, things that I cannot put on the message boards without a ban.

The fluff and rules are both important. The story is what we are playing for, I'd hope. The rules are how we get there. You need both otherwise you have results with no meaning, and a story with no decision-making ability.


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Hm. I've played a number of games of <insert version of Pathfinder or Dungeons and Dragons here> with a variety of rules over the years: HERO, Traveller, Top Secret, Rolemaster, etc.

We didn't worry overly much what label needed to be attached to it. It was "the game." It never occurred to us to have to apply a title to it. The conversation was "Are we playing this weekend?" If it were something other than "the game", it would have been noted as "We're playing Jeff's Marvel game" or "We're playing Gene's Traveller game." Otherwise, it was taken for granted that "the game", regardless of what unholy conglomeration of rules a few of our GMs liked to test, was "that game we play with those characters on that world finding treasure and fighting monsters."


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Mystically Inclined wrote:

...

But since it was only three years ago, I'm also able to remember what it was like to be the guy who thought the vanilla classes were really cool and interesting, and who struggled to build a character that could keep up with the party and actually contribute.

At the time, I was in a home group. The only seriously experienced player had a problem with patience, and would only help so much. So I came to the Paizo forums and spent a lot of time reading the advice section. There I found a number of 'truths' that I eagerly enshrined in my memory- the things one simply Did Not Do.

And frankly, the OP's list pretty strongly matches my own from that period. (In my case, swap out power attack for 'monks are almost as bad as rogues.') And when I saw the OP's post, I remembered those early times and nodded right along with him.

Were those opinions the majority opinion of the boards? Likely not. But they are the opinion of a rather loud segment of the advice forums. Or at least, the opinion is aired enough that an eager eyed newbie will easily get that impression.

...

The above is the danger both new and old visitors to the forums have. There is a loud assortment of posters that can get vehement about their ideas -- they aren't trying (well, most of them anyway) to be rude or disrespectful, they are just passionate about what they are saying.

It's important when you are sifting through posts to take the opinions as just that -- and yes, there are informed opinions and math has been worked out to show without a shadow of a doubt that X is sub-optimal and Y is a poor idea. And yet ..

I often hear the same thing when speaking with people about sporting teams, as an example. There are people that can show you that X team cannot possibly win and you are wasting your time rooting for them. Y car is clearly superior, why wouldn't you get it?

Both/all sides should look at what is being said, process the information and then apply it to their own experiences and needs. Rogues may well and truly suck because of all the aforementioned decisions. Universal wizards aren't the best choice. And so on. But you take the opinions and math and if you still want to play whatever, that is totally ok!

You don't have to defend why you want to play a rogue, or don't want a dinosaur companion or heal in combat. People are just being passionate about the ideas -- I daresay that no one posting really cares what you or someone else plays in your game. They are saying "These are cool ideas that do what you want to do too. If you play in organized play, you may want to consider them as a better choice."

That's it. No ulterior motives or desire to destroy your concepts, but rather a fan's love of the game and a need to share it, sometimes forcefully, with others.


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Text makes it very hard to determine sarcasm -- or most other things -- without some clues. There are not enough bread crumbs to lead us to the conclusion that there was sarcasm in your reaction.

Always say what you mean and try to be clear in text. It saves time and tempers.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:

If every player bothered to actually try and learn the rules for what they're playing and the general chapter on combat, there wouldn't be such a thing as "rules lawyers".

Newbies get a pass - there's a lot to take in at once. But if you've been gaming for over a year and haven't bothered to sit down and try to learn how it works, well, you're lazy. I thought about finding a nicer way to say that, I really did, but a year is a long frickin time. Lazy.

The CRB has 575 pages. 4 pages are table of contents and credits and that kind of stuff, 4 are indexes, 2 are lists of inspired reading appendices, 14 are gamemastering, 10 are creating NPCs...All of which the player never needs to know.

That's 541 pages absolute maximum to read. That's less than two pages a day to get it done in a year. For everything. But if you're playing a certain race, class, and using only certain items, that can cut it down by About 75%. Heck, the magic items chapter alone is 96 pages, most of which you can ignore. Spells are about 150, which if you're a martial you can skip entirely, and a caster need only know what he or she casts. That boils down to a page every other day.

Reading four pages a week is not a lot of work. It's not. I'm pretty sure it's less than five minutes work per page to really soak it in. Most people spend hours at a time on their hobbies, and not even on the fun parts, but tabletop gamers can't be expected to spend just under a half an hour a week learning theirs? And maybe I'm generalizing, but just about everyone I've played with has called themselves a reader, or at least casually enjoyed reading.

It just annoys me that considering all the work a GM goes through how lazy so many players can be.

I wish this wasn't so true. I've played with people that cannot remember what to roll or do with their character and they have been playing for ten years or more. It just makes me hurt.


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Bring it to Denver. That way it's close enough for me to attend. :)


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Zhangar wrote:

Eh, it does seem to me that there's a presumption on the boards that in player v. GM dispute, the GM is always at fault, and that a GM who ever tells his player's "no, I'm not allowing that" (or a GM who actually enforces restrictions) is horrible.

The boards have a number of extremely vocal minorities with axes to grind. =P

@ Jaunt: Eh, I can see a GM who's trying to run a campaign balking at what's probably going to be a joke or otherwise disruptive character. (Seriously, I don't have high hopes for a character whose concept starts at "I'm a werezebra!" =P) And I can see that GM being lambasted on the boards from trying to keep a disruptive character concept out of his game because he's daring to impose restrictions on a player

I think, from observation in a number of these threads, some people had bad past experiences with a GM who didn't allow them to play something or made poor calls or were otherwise abusive. So you get a very visceral reaction from them at the hint of a GM doing something similar.

And some of it seems to be a standard on the Internet of "no one tells me what to do EVER!" I hope it is more something people say on boards rather than a real reaction.


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Darkheyr wrote:

Humour me with a question, wraithstrike.

I am your GM. I come to your house to play. Mid-session, I stand up, walk over to your cupboard, and smash three of your glasses.

You then make a scene about what the hells I am doing, while I kindly ask you to continue the game.

Who of us is to blame for holding up the game?

The game is only held up as long as it takes for you to get your things and leave.


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Let's see how long it stays civil. I have money on this.


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VampByDay wrote:
Warning, this is a pseudo opinion/vent/explanation of common misconceptions about pathfinder I've found on the boards. You can feel free to disagree with me. That's great. Please though, just put down a well-reasoned argument instead of calling me names and calling my intelligence into account. This is basically me trying to clear up some misconceptions I've seen on the 'net about pathfinder.

The most important thing to take away from anything on the boards is that it is all opinion. All of it. One gamer's experience is often quite different from another. Listen and look at what they say, but make your own decisions and experiences. Dismiss power attacks and play rogues and do what you want.


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BigDTBone wrote:
knightnday wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
If GM scarcity allows a GM to get away with being a jerk, the GM is still being a jerk. We shouldn't set our expectations to accept that as the default or the good.

Sorry, got called away before I completed my thought there. The idea isn't to accept a GM being a jerk or a player being a jerk, but for people to be able to talk to each other like we want to play a game together. If the GM or rules lawyer/player cannot, for whatever reason, express themselves without being a total jerk then they should get a translator or reconsider interacting with other humanoids.

Point is, there is a way to say "hey, I think you may have misread this or made a mistake" without coming across like you are attacking the other person, or taking offense at being corrected on the copious rules that exist in RPGs.

I agree completely.

Some folks in this thread are pushing an agenda that if the GM is being a jerk, it still makes you wrong to call them on it. Just because they are the GM. I find that to be highly objectionable.

Please note, knightnday, I don't see you as someone doing that, but your statement did come off as a rationale for that mindset.

Oh I can totally see that. I went back to see where I hit enter and knew that it was going to come across different that I had intended. No one gets to be a jerk, especially not the GM. I consider myself the host even if I am not hosting the game in my own home. It's the GMs responsibility and duty to make sure people have fun and that the game flows well. Arguing is one of the biggest wastes of time and leaders in game groups breaking up. Discussion is one thing, but a blanket "I am right because I am the GM" or "You are wrong because I read the rules and have the devs on speed dial" are both mood killers for everyone not in the fight.


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BigDTBone wrote:
If GM scarcity allows a GM to get away with being a jerk, the GM is still being a jerk. We shouldn't set our expectations to accept that as the default or the good.

Sorry, got called away before I completed my thought there. The idea isn't to accept a GM being a jerk or a player being a jerk, but for people to be able to talk to each other like we want to play a game together. If the GM or rules lawyer/player cannot, for whatever reason, express themselves without being a total jerk then they should get a translator or reconsider interacting with other humanoids.

Point is, there is a way to say "hey, I think you may have misread this or made a mistake" without coming across like you are attacking the other person, or taking offense at being corrected on the copious rules that exist in RPGs.


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A rules lawyer, good or bad, or really any player in the game is welcome to give commentary on a rule in my game. That said, I ask that we don't devolve into 30 minute game-derailing arguments over rules if they aren't a matter of life or death to the character. If they are, I'll call a break and we'll dig into the problem while people attend to snacks, bio needs, smoking, phone calls or whatever.

A bad player/rules lawyer/or really a person is one that won't take any answer that they do not agree with. One that tries to slow the game to a halt to argue over a +1 here or there on every roll, and in general is less a participant and more a very vocal irritant.

I have, in the past, instituted a "one but" rule. You get one interruption to make your case and then we move on until the next break when I'll talk to you more about it. This came about after a particular player would constantly break the flow of the game to try and use obscure rulings, grey areas, and otherwise angle for an advantage. Other players suggested the rule.

A last comment regarding BigDTBone's comments regarding players taking up the GM mantle when being kicked out of a game and GM ownership in general. While it is true that this does happen in some games, in a lot of others and in a number of areas, there is a lack of GMs or lack of people willing to do the task. Whether this is lack of desire, talent, rules knowledge or whatever, it still comes down to that one person willing to do the deed.

I think every player should have to GM several sessions, especially rules lawyers (good or bad). It is incredibly easy to backseat drive and point out where a GM may have fumbled a ruling or missed something in the chaos of 2-12 people yelling what they are doing. It is something else to be the person having all that going on.

Not every GM is a complete master of the rules with an encyclopedic and eidetic memory. A gentle reminder, a "hey, isn't it blah" and so on are much more welcome than "you are doing it wrong!" or giving a seminar on the correct way to read the ruling.

It's a matter of courtesy. Think about how you'd want to be talked to. (and yes, I know there are many in our community who will likely tell us that they don't care how someone tells them the information, they cannot hear/read social clues or that they don't take offense. I sort them into the same pile with Internet SEAL team members and ask that even if it doesn't affect you, think about how it might affect those humans you interact that DO have feelings. :) )


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I do like the idea of the dungeon dressings being in the set. That said, a large portion of the figures just don't excite me -- while they look nice and I can appreciate that many people may be into them, they aren't something that myself or my group tends to use. I'm looking at about 10 figures outside of the dressing minis that I want. That isn't enough for me to look into a case unfortunately. Hopefully the next set will have more of what I'm looking for. Still, from the pictures they look interesting and well done.


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I almost always have intelligent monsters use tactics and strategies along with different/better equipment, altering modules and APs when I use them to reflect the creatures having an IQ above room temperature.

I tell my players to expect these things as well and in being informed it makes them think more about what they are doing.

I'm reminded of an article for Champions from years ago, explaining that the enemy troops should use tactics, cover, an array of weapons and in general act like they're out there to fight people and not run around like the Three Stooges.

This sort of approach can surprise players that aren't used to it, that expect guards to act like mall cops or just stand static and wait to die. This is why I let it be known from the outset -- don't be complacent. Expect the enemy to possibly be prepared for someone to attack them, or for spell casters, or otherwise exist in a world where PCs exist, where other intelligent creatures might attack them, where there are things that come out of the walls and take you away.


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Memes I hate: People who seem incredibly unhappy that a game is not perfect and/or has flaws and use every thread to make that point.


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From what I've read and/or inferred from what is being said (and not said), it looks like the answer to the question of when is "not now, probably later."

Mark has mentioned that he's added post it notes to the pile of errata, which seems to mean to me that there is more to be done on it, checked and so on. Liz, I believe, mentioned GenCon and other events that they have going on.

The answer really might just be "Busy, it's on the list. Sorry."


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GM_Beernorg wrote:
That is a fair enough point, however I should be able to speak my mind without it being implied, via the use of "speaks ill of you", that I am somehow a reprobate, violent mad man, or what have you. We have never met, as far as I am aware, yet from just a few lines of text which you disagree with, you have decided that I am in need of chastising. Also lack of tone in posts makes it much easier to take comments in ways that may have never been intended, and it is possible I did just that. Well, I am human and as such am sometimes a less than a 100% rational creature, and as such I can and DO make mistakes.

A few lines of text is all we have to go off of on message boards. While it cannot paint a whole picture, as you have mentioned the lack of tone and voice prevents us from knowing if you meant it as a laughing comment or seriously and so on.

Text-based conversation strips everything down to just the words, and with the words you pick you set the stage for how people see you in this environment.


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I sort of hope that if people are concerned about their intelligence being insulted by being compared unfavorably to a mega-genius fantasy character that they'd think better of violence in the first place.

It's a common enough commentary on the internet to believe that things will get violent if conversations were face to face. But after meeting tons of people over the 38 or so years of gaming, it'd more often result in awkward conversations, stammering, and a 30 minute derail over which comic book or movie character this NPC is most like and who is smarter.

Yes, even for insults. The overwhelming majority of gamers I've run across (outside of the hypothetical Internet black belts/ex-SEALS/etc) are pretty non-violent and would likely harm themselves attempting a punch.

But I'd agree that people's language tends to calm down when they actually have to say something to someone in the same room -- it's harder to work up the courage or Google just the right insult for the occasion.


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Cheapy wrote:

The idea that a company would use that as a design principle.

I mean seriously, do these people believe that Jason Bulmahn was tortured as a child by a fighter in spiked armor, and from that very moment he set out to be a game designer so that he could take away all the nice things of martials? That a company has an agenda to take away all the "nice things" from the the very game they made as a way to deny joy?

It's mind-boggling. And that's not even getting into the fact that most of these things are just absurdly overpowered by any metric in a game where the gap between martial prowess and spellcasting might is so much smaller than in previous editions.

Rant off.

Indeed. Whenever I see the phrase on the board, I cannot help but hear my son saying how we hate him because he didn't get whatever it was that he asked for that minute. It just tends to come across as a knee-jerk response than something I can take seriously. Same with "Paizo hates X" and any variation on the designers/devs being crazy/mean/insane/incompetent.

My eyes glaze, I dismiss the post as being dramatic and move to the next.


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I still recognize our game. I've recognized it over the years when we've used various versions of D&D, when an old GM decided he wanted to try Rolemaster or using Top Secret or Battletech rules for a few sessions. I recognize it when we use one or all of the Pathfinder books.

Your game is what you and your players make of it. An eternal game of keeping up with the Jones on the latest books -- be they Paizo or third party -- is a way to drive yourself to distraction.

Find what makes you and your table happy and do that. Stop fretting about what is being put out and if/when someone will ask for that particular thing.


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thejeff wrote:
knightnday wrote:

What grinds my gears. other than some of what has been stated in the last five pages?

Overuse of the terms straw man, fallacy and so on. It stops meaning what it was originally intended to mean and comes across as "I disagree with you and will dismiss you with a trite internet argument dismissal. Take that!"

At least that is how I read it. That or you just managed to make it through a class and learned the term and want to impress everyone.

I could do with less of it.

That's just an ad hominen.

*headdesk*


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What grinds my gears. other than some of what has been stated in the last five pages?

Overuse of the terms straw man, fallacy and so on. It stops meaning what it was originally intended to mean and comes across as "I disagree with you and will dismiss you with a trite internet argument dismissal. Take that!"

At least that is how I read it. That or you just managed to make it through a class and learned the term and want to impress everyone.

I could do with less of it.


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Uwotm8 wrote:
I'm not reading that. Sorry. *nod and smile*

If you aren't going to read what others are saying, why take part in the conversation? You can just state your opinion out loud, nod to yourself, and move on.


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It's possible new players won't come in with preconceived notions of what is and isn't broken. A lot of our veterans are dragging their baggage from the Great D&D Migration and have ideas about what is right and wrong with the game. Newer folks might not be as experienced slash jaded and have less trouble using the Core book.


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bugleyman wrote:

I just grabbed a booster at the FLGS:

10 Firepelt Cougar
13 Lamashtu Thug #2
14 Shifty Noble
27 Forest Drake

An overall solid entry in the line. If you regularly buy these minis, then you won't be disappointed by this set. Definitely much better rarity and general figure choices than the last set, but there remains some room for improvement (why two boggards? The world really needs a 2nd wolf much more than it needed that second boggard). Good sculpts, generally good paint jobs (the exception being my shifty noble, who is completely faceless). The cost per figure remains relatively high, but in fairness I think that's just the price point needed to sustain the line. To warrant five stars at this price, however, I believe a set needs to be packed full of figures with a very high utility. This one is close, but not there yet.

I agree with this. I picked up a set out of curiosity this weekend and was overall happy with the way things look (although the hill giant in overalls isn't really to my tastes..) I'd love more sets like the goblins or undead one offs that can fill in for commonly fought monsters or even humanoids -- guards, brigands, random adventurer types and so on. Fae like roysier mentioned. The sets as they stand now end up with some very specific monsters that are nice for the APs, but may not see a lot of use at other times.


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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:
Oh, also, note that at least one of the leaked KKK members are a cop. Oh why am I not surprised.

This is a hard one to not respond to, but I think I'm failing a save check.

I SERIOUSLY question why anyone who is part of the KKK would be allowed to be a policeman. I would say their judgment in fairness and equality is automatically questionable.

I don't think they could be trusted to leave their feelings behind and make impartial decisions.

I would seriously be worried if I was in the area where this member was patrolling.

I would hope that it is ONLY one member of the St Louis police, and not something that is endemic to the police force there and in Ferguson.

As for the main situation, I still don't know enough of what happened to say if the police are justified, innocent or not, or if Brown was innocent or not currently.

They simply haven't released enough information for me to determine anything.

Often it isn't known that they are a member of that organization. Sometimes it is know as there are other existing members already in place in the department. I've run across that in a number of areas I've lived; it's often surprising to find out who is in what organization. Then again, not everyone is out with their affiliations, much like their likes, dislikes, kinks, and so on.


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Joana wrote:

My understanding is, if you were reading Sage Advice on the D&D website 10 years ago, you are not the target audience for this book.

Frankly, if you're hanging out in these forums and reading the Paizo blog, you are probably not the target audience for this book. They've been very clear that this is a guide to help beginners get started with the game.

The previewed "Cleric" spread cements my suspicion that this is not a book I will ever, ever consult ... but it's definitely one I want on my shelf to hand to any new player. It seems to be designed to be the next best thing to the way many of us (I, at least) learned to play the game: by having a veteran player sitting down next to us with the rulebook and a blank character sheet and walking us through it.

I agree for the most part on this; that said, I'm also looking forward to the book both as a teaching aide and to see how other people (in this case, the designers) design characters and what they have to say about it. An offline forum, if you will, that has ideas I may not have considered strongly. Plus, I liked Sage Advice. :)


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I'll add in my two cents for talking to them. You could look to the Sparhawk series by David Eddings as an example of characters that deal primarily with the One True God and his enemies, as well as the pagan pantheons on the side. It might be what they are looking for, or towards.


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I checked off that I was invited to play with an adult group. However, I first learned the game myself by reading the books and studying them. My knowledge expanded greatly once I got into a group, however, and I could see better how to apply what I learned.


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Lune wrote:

He stated further upthread:

Popupjoe wrote:
Hes never said more the a few sentences to my son. He intracts more with my dog. His reaction is a lot like others on this post,as he has no idea who my son is.

Yes I saw that and it indicates one of the people, not the entire group. Unless this guy is the leader, do any of them have anything to say about what is going on or are they following his lead? The OP mentioned that half the group wasn't interested, which makes me wonder how the group is split and why. That might go a ways to answering what is up.

Ending a group or changing it in this way is hard; no matter what you do, someone is going to be disappointed/angry/not understand. Perhaps the OP can find a similarly aged group for his son to play in and/or find another group more accepting of people his age. That might satisfy everyone.


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Anyway, and back on track, I'd be interested in the OP's players thoughts on the matter (which may have been entered but lost in the resulting war above.)

Whether you or I would play with a child wasn't the point; why they may not and if he could convince them otherwise was. If they are dead set against it you risk losing some or all of them for the sake of your son. If you want to strip blood out of it, would you make your group play with someone else they didn't want to?


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lune wrote:
To my mind that is better than pretending like your friends aren't bigots towards your own child. I would rather them admit their bigotry upfront so that I could make an informed decision about whether I would want to be their friend in the first place. Personally, I do not keep friends who are bigots.

Lune - you keep using that word (bigots). I do not think it means what you think it means.

There are actually valid reasons for not wanting to play with a child. I've run games for my nephews & niece, and while they mostly got it (though a bit of ADD came into play) it was in fact a very different sort of game.

The word bigot is incrediably loaded with all sorts of negative connotations, and it's one of the words which, once it's brought into play, actual debate is over. By using it, you have cast your side of the argument as the good guy, and anyone who disagrees with you is inherently the bad guy.

Heck, I don't always want to play with my own children. Sometimes they require a different sort of energy than my adult players. Sometimes I want to strangle them because they have had one of those days.

It isn't bigotry to not want to play with your own or someone else's children any more than it is bigotry to not want to play with that one guy that cannot shut up or those other people or the questionable people at the gaming store. It's just a choice.


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Morzadian wrote:
knightnday wrote:

Bloat/Options are what you make of it.

You have to pick your line and go from there. Incorporate only what you want and let the rest go or make a home game that uses different parts of it.

There are people who like more options, more places in the world described, different ideas written out. If you do not want that, then you have a powerful tool: your wallet. Don't buy it if you don't like it.

But it is available for those who do, and frankly for Paizo to make money from and feed themselves/their loved ones.

Worried about PFS? Don't be. You can successfully play with just the core book.

In honor of the snow today, I give you the worlds of Elsa: Let it go.

Discussion about bloat on this thread isn't solely about too many options.

It's about how new options are being presented. Sloppy codification, trap options and extreme codification creates unnecessary bloat and prevents many of these new concepts from being included in Pathfinder games.

Incorporating what you want in a game is easily said than done. I have been playing D&D and now Pathfinder with the same group of people for 20 years. And as one would expect, a GM dictating terms to players on what they can have and what they can't doesn't go down too well.

And going through every hardcover release with a fine tooth comb just to have a few options has increasingly become an impractical solution.

I want new options but I can't sacrifice campaign balance to get them.

From posts on this thread, I think many people have a similar issue.

I will humbly disagree with you. Incorporating what you want into the game is a matter of doing it. You are reading the book, right? Make notes as you go through on what you are iffy about. Discuss with your players. Repeat as necessary.

I'm not sure I understand the issue of going through each release -- don't you already do that? Heck, I don't take any of this at face value. I like Paizo and I respect the people who write the books but that doesn't mean that I just nod and take things as written. Unless I am misreading something that seems to be what you are saying.

I'll reiterate what I've said on dozens of threads on this subject: I have yet, in 37 or so years, to ever run across a perfect game that I haven't had the desire to modify -- whether to remove a rule I disliked, improved one that I found iffy, and so on. That's part of being a GM IMO. It's part of being a player for that matter -- you can run with something broken and hope someone notices, or you can bring it up and see that it gets fixed/removed in your game.

So yes, you can go over things. It's just a matter of how you'd like to allocate time. Some people play video games for hours a day, or football (fantasy or otherwise). Others prefer to work on their gaming stuff. YMMV, not valid in etc etc.


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I know when I first started out as a wee roleplayer in the old days the large majority of gamers at the rec center were adults/very late teens. I was the baby of our group at 12-14. After I had proven that I had the maturity to listen and not be annoying I was allowed to graduate to the "big table" with the adults playing adult themed games rather than the smaller tables where, frankly, people ran amok like kindergartners on crack.

My oldest kids are 10 now and they aren't quite as capable of sitting still and ramping down the enthusiasm and noise as I was at that age. We're playing a game with just family at the moment until I can be sure that they wouldn't annoy other adults (or kids!)

In any case, I've seen this from both sides. That said, this stood out for me:

Umbranus wrote:
Most adults have little time for gaming. And if a player wants to use his precious little time having fun without burdening themselves with teaching someone I can understand that. For some people that might be fun. For others it is depriving them of what they started the game for.

Does that count for teaching/dealing with other adults? Many children that are interested in gaming are quite willing to sit and listen and learn quickly. Many adults are less willing; look into the accounts of the same people not knowing what their characters do after multiple sessions or not knowing what dice to roll after years of doing this.


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Bloat/Options are what you make of it.

You have to pick your line and go from there. Incorporate only what you want and let the rest go or make a home game that uses different parts of it.

There are people who like more options, more places in the world described, different ideas written out. If you do not want that, then you have a powerful tool: your wallet. Don't buy it if you don't like it.

But it is available for those who do, and frankly for Paizo to make money from and feed themselves/their loved ones.

Worried about PFS? Don't be. You can successfully play with just the core book.

In honor of the snow today, I give you the worlds of Elsa: Let it go.


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One less Christmas present, one more Valentine's Day present!


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Communicate, communicate, communicate.

What I try to do is make notes about whatever stray thought comes through that the players should know about. There is nothing more frustrating for the GM or the players than the GM to remember "Oh yes, I was going to tell you that blah is WAY overpowered/underpowered and I wanted to change it."

Make that note when you are looking at it. I keep 3x5 and 5x8 cards handy so I can jot down notes to later transcribe into documentation for the players. I find that if I can point them to something written down, it ends a lot of arguments and communication issues.

I am a bit crazy about notes and keeping records of what is going on, what is and isn't working, and so on. That way if I determine that the rogue, for example, is overpowered and kicking everyone's butt I can look over why this is happening. Otherwise I'll forget what I was going to do.

I also encourage my players to talk to me face to face, email, text, whatever to tell me what is or isn't working or what they'd like to see or not to see. Even if I disagree, the lines of communication are open.


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Maybe she was trying to distract from her voice.


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I've been working with Access and Excel to make documents for my particular worlds, sorting all the various information for feats and so on. I had something like this years ago but lost them in an unfortunate computer mishap and divorce.

It is interesting to go back through them and put in useful information, page numbers and other material for quick use and then I can go back to the source if I need more information.


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They have as much or as little value as anyone else's opinions. Attempting to dismiss opinions you dislike because they don't hit the bar on "playing the game right" is trying to control the conversation.

I could say "people who try to shove their opinion of what is the right way to play shouldn't be allowed to contribute to the discussion", but that isn't my decision. This isn't my message board and it isn't my conversation to control.

Their opinions and ways of playing are valid. While you may be talking about strictly by the book RAW Pathfinder with no deviation, that doesn't seem to be the common definition.

Whether you think or care about others opinions isn't significant. It's a public message board holding a public conversation. It isn't yours to control.


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Or .. we could say that everyone's definition is different and yours/theirs/ours isn't the only one. Whether you believe that someone's definition of how they play, what rules they use or do not use are the "right" ones, and so on are insignificant.

Or in shorter terms, who decides who matters? Who here has been ordained the Lord Almighty of Pathfinder to make that determination?


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ShadowcatX wrote:
knightnday wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

do you guys even have jobs? or are endless debates on politics and policy your jobs?

i truly want to know, every time theres a thread where people are calmly having a light conversation, all of a sudden you guys jump on and within a few hours its pages and pages of back and forth and hyperbole!

i would appreciate it if the following Paizo People go a month without so much as interjecting a single political point into any conversation on these boards, i will send them Cookies of their choice (i'm a 3rd generation baker, so yeah pretty f$$%ing good!)
anyway the people: TheJeff, Simon Legrande, Yellowing, BignorseWolf, Scott betts, Lazarx, Comrade ankle biter (and the rest of his communist aliases).

listen you guys are great, but its been years and you're all going around the same circle and its really annoying to have these same conversations pop up over and over and over and over again! as my son likes to tell me "you people need a time out!"

flag it if you want:)

Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to read the thread?
Ah, the Internet equivalent of "you can't tell me what to do!" Much easier to tell them to not read the thread than try to ramp back the hyperbole and general grar. It's like we're playing out how the Congress and Senate operate here.
So the post telling people not to post in these threads is acceptable but my post telling said person to simply not read the thread if he doesn't like these kinds of threads is unacceptable? That makes sense. . .

Go back and read it again. I believe I said that it was easier to tell them not to read any of the posts than to calm down and try not to repeat yourself, try not to get into meaningless slap fights with each other, and so on.


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I would think it tells rational people "Oh look, the same sort of thing that happens in midterms, especially when whichever party has been in the White House for 6 years."

It made for an interesting election night, but will it matter in a week? 2? A year?


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ShadowcatX wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

do you guys even have jobs? or are endless debates on politics and policy your jobs?

i truly want to know, every time theres a thread where people are calmly having a light conversation, all of a sudden you guys jump on and within a few hours its pages and pages of back and forth and hyperbole!

i would appreciate it if the following Paizo People go a month without so much as interjecting a single political point into any conversation on these boards, i will send them Cookies of their choice (i'm a 3rd generation baker, so yeah pretty f$$%ing good!)
anyway the people: TheJeff, Simon Legrande, Yellowing, BignorseWolf, Scott betts, Lazarx, Comrade ankle biter (and the rest of his communist aliases).

listen you guys are great, but its been years and you're all going around the same circle and its really annoying to have these same conversations pop up over and over and over and over again! as my son likes to tell me "you people need a time out!"

flag it if you want:)

Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to read the thread?

Ah, the Internet equivalent of "you can't tell me what to do!" Much easier to tell them to not read the thread than try to ramp back the hyperbole and general grar. It's like we're playing out how the Congress and Senate operate here.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
knightnday wrote:
It was interesting to see that the gentleman that was interested in the woman in New Zealand actually went up and spoke with her rather than screeching something "friendly" from across the way.
This too is considered harassment by some.

Oh no doubt. But it illustrates how one might go about meeting these untouchable creatures in some other way than shouting greetings in the hopes of being noticed. Give the other thread on this, there seemed to be some concern that some men just couldn't meet women in any other way.


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It was interesting to see that the gentleman that was interested in the woman in New Zealand actually went up and spoke with her rather than screeching something "friendly" from across the way.


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Let him break in. Have the door rigged to close behind him with an even better lock on it. Make sure you have no windows. If you are kind, leave food and water inside but nothing else. He likes a challenge, right?


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Simon Legrande wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:

If this board leans any further to the left it's going to capsize.

I suppose it's not unusual to see the standard "democrats good, republicans bad" gem that is the norm. Also, nice to see that the guy who acknowledged that the parties are nearly identical when it comes to actions gets derided.

Still, I remain amazed that people disapprove of the government because it's not doing enough rather than because it's doing too much.

It may help you if you don't equate Democrat with "left." In a true political spectrum the entirety of the U.S. is right leaning or further to the right.

Use this scale to adjust your "boat balance" and live your life free of capsizing fears. (At least to the left :D )

Tea party wing of Republican Party - extreme right, flirting with fascism.
Other Republicans - very very right, Machiavelli
"Centerist" Independents - very right, Roman Senate
Democrats - right, cautious conservatism.
"Radical Liberal" Democrat - actual political center, Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, Rachael Maddow.

It would be interesting to see a similar layout put forth by someone on the right. Both sides believe they are the moderates and the other guys are the extremists. Anyone who says otherwise is on one of the sides.

From what I've seen, none of the parties can even agree on what it means to be a member of their party, hence claims of DINO, RINO, centrist, left wing kook, right wing denying fire and so on.


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Thankful that my state allowed me to vote by mail. Also thankful that the ads are done for another 18 months or so.

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