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Deliox Creed wrote:
* First off, you've gone way overboard on charisma, to point that your CON and DEX scores (lousy AC and lousy HP) are more than likely going to get you killed in PFS (unless you play under the same GM every week, and he's a known commodity to you). If you were building a paladin, it wouldn't be so bad -- but a cleric's channels should be treated as emergency rations, not a build's entire focus.
* Pathfinder clerics don't get heavy armor proficiency, which means a very precious feat has to be allocated to paper over the wretched AC (and then you touch-ac will still be a vertical auto-hit for ray casters and incorporeals).
* Your human cleric INT 8 might as well be a 7 because, due to the way skills are allocated and THEN racial bonuses are added, you'll get 2/lvl regardless (from that 7, it costs a relative six build points for a 12 to get 3/lvl).
Reactionary: +2 InitativeIf you're spending a trait to better go first, it doesn't jibe very well with a DEX of 10.
I am building a character for a friend's campaign, I thought a summoner would be fun but I need help with the build and the eidolon....
A summoner wrecked the last adventure-path I was in -- he *destroyed* every encounter.
My advice for new players is to stick to the Core classes, and use a 15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt pre-racial stat array for their first character regardless of class (except for maybe wizard).
Avoid any class which is banned by PFS.
(I second the suggestion for Ranger.)
Reach weapons, combat reflexes, step up, and massive damage make you a tank in pathfinder.
Depending upon how old-school you want to get with definitions, "tank" originally meant someone who can ward off massive punishment (physical and mental) -- he is not normally the PC capable of dishing out the most damage (although he often, from mere appearance, fools the enemy into assuming so). A good way to judge a the "tankiness" of a build is to measure how much healing/unsucking it needs during combat with challenging opponents.
The mentality of the steroid barbarian is "I'm going to dish it out faster than I take it!"
The mentality of the tank is "I'm going to take it less than I dish it out!"
-- S&B paladins and dwarf fighters are the toughest tanks.
T'nk (20pt dwarf)
traits: Birthmark (religion), Glory of Old (regional)
01 fight1 [Tower Shield Specialist], Iron Will, Steel Soul
Attack: (3-2=)+1; AC:22; saves vs. magic: F+10/R+7/W+9 (+11 vs charm/compulsion).
-- At 1st level, T'nk is only ~45% to hit crappy mooks, but they need a 19 or 20 to hit him. He makes his saves ~80% of the time. Party healer seldom has to "budget" resources for him.
02 cleric1 [Abadar:Protection/Travel], 1st
03 fight2 [Burst Barrier], Shield Focus, Additional Traits [Militant Merchant (racial), Defender of the Society (combat)]
04 fight3 STR>16, [Tower Shield Training]
<> <> <> <> <>
Skills per level: 4 (spent on Perception, Sense Motive, rest grab bag).
Tactics: Takes point (or is second after a rogue). Expects to (and positions himself to) bear the brunt of melee attacks. Unlike most fighters, invites being targeted by spellcasters.
Offense is worthless at low-level but mainly irrelevant since his job is to block the choke-point eating all the incoming; offense steadily improves thereafter (he is, after all, a fighter). Teener levels: T'nk has traded some offensive power (Weapon Training + gloves) for best-in-game defense (tower shield bonus now applying to touch AC as well); he considers this well worth it, since he expects to be a target three to four times as often as he gets to attack.
How ever you cut it, its the extra books that have knee capped the rougeSo when the splats tripled the rogue's available Talent options and give him a crapton of cheap new magic items, traits, feats, and armor/weapon types and properties to play with, he was being knee-capped? Knee-cap me harder, please.
Tell you what, throw out a build that you think is viable for a rogue.
You mean aside from the Darkness murder-machine I cited in my most recent post before this one?
The way you guys fail your Perception checks make me wonder....
Right. What's your hitpoints, fort save, armor class and AC at 8th? I say you'll have way fewer feats/rage powers/lay-on-hands and way fewer hitpoints or armor class than a real tank who needs at least one of those latter categories in *aces* to go toe-to-toe in melee with BBEGs at PFS upper tiers.
Skill monkey classes forced into glass cannon Schwarzenegger concepts die like mice around Tier 7-8 in PFS when huge reach monsters with Improved Grab begin showing up. Either that, or the player wises up and relegates his character to the back ranks next to the wizard, but is under-optimized in that capacity as well since his build was totally geared for melee combat which it is now obviously inept at. I swear, I'd rather have an n-2 level dwarf straight-class CRB fighter with a tower shield and waraxe at the table than any of them; as I can trust the dwarf not to wilt in one round or one poison-save. Hell, a 5th level archer bard with Heroism up juicing a Hasted repeating crossbow would contribute more in combat than the washed-up, sad, pectoral model who can't hack it.
Moral of the story: if you want to play a barbarian, play a barbarian. Start with a 19 in your prime stat and be raging to a 26 at 5th level, making these melee pretenders look hopelessly foolish.
Zero, I recently ran ninja who exploited the Goz mask + Obscuring Mist trick; I triple-classed him ninja/cleric[deception]/monk[flowing] at levels 1-2-3 for a BAB of 0.
Factoring the relative disparity between his target's blotto dexterity scores and flat-footedness combined with Midnight Stalker, he waxed opponents like a raging barbarian once he started flogging their beached whale armor-class.
As a straight class, the tactics would have taken a little longer to come together, but it was still in the cards.
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
One particularly sneaky char I knew, threw hot ground up chillis into the faces of his enemies. I know a bit about chillis (as I grow them) so I went with it. Irritation, temporary blindness, lot of screaming, opening for a sneak attack.
Ahh.... That brings back fond memories.
Instead talk to the player, lay out how his character is broken, point out it's banned from organized play, and let him rebuild his character from the ground up.
Note: the Synthicist was banned from PFS *not* because it was broken (although a strong case can be made in that regard), but for two other reasons: 1) they wrecked the verisimilitude sought for Society play, and 2) virtually no one playing them was doing so correctly by the albeit incomprehensible rules, and so they became a huge PITA for GMs to adjudicate at the table (one or more other summoner archetypes were also banned for this reason).
Broken? Hell, even Wild Rager wasn't banned for being broken (it, too, was banned for other reasons).
252. The dark Drizzit clone always dies first. (Paizo has now thoughtfully provided an entire new character class, the Magus, to make the GM's monsters' snack-detection process that much more efficient. Really, it's the thoughtful touches like this which has made Pathfinder such a success.)
253. Buffing the melees is a luxury; buffing the casters is a necessity.
254. Children are excited by DPR; adults calculate attrition.
255. If your room at the inn contains a window, its only reason for being there is to permit the entry of vampires and werewolves while you're sleeping.
Holy smokes; that's hideous.
I'd forgotten all about that feat (Domain Strike).
That is a really inefficient way to pair up attributes and bonuses. Try this (you said "rolled", so I'm guessing those numbers are fixed, and it's not 29pt buy or whatever):
Traits: Dangerously Curious*, Armor Expert*
(*Traits are not in the CRB, so you may not get to play with these. Pity also that you can't take Fey Foundling out of the Inner Sea World Guide, as it's possibly the best paladin-synergistic feat in the game.
I'm just not sure which archery feats I need and can do without. We're using core rulebook only.
The only "archery" feat you need for a switch-hitter is Quick Draw, which will put your bow in your hands instantly.
Equipment: mithral breastplate*, +1 light quickdraw shield, STR+2 belt, STR+3 MW composite longbow, MW lance, MW longsword, studded leather barding, military saddle, NW bridle, assortment of 1st-level scrolls and 5-charge wands.
(*If campaign is trailing WBL, be in mundane scale armor and still saving up. The belt is more important, since you need that before buying a strength-rated MW bow.)
Pre-combat: you're riding with one hand on the reins and your shield is equipped, because that's totally realistic.
Surprise (in the unlikely even you get to go, because you're a paladin for whom Perception is not a class skill and wisdom is your favored dump stat): stow quickdraw shield as a free-action, quickdraw bow and snap a shot.
1st round: full-attack (if Hasted by wizard at 5th) with bow against distant targets if combat begins at range. If if looks like enemy will advance to melee on its turn, drop bow and Quick Draw a lance. Take AoOs with reach-weapon off-turn.
2nd round: lance charge if possible, or drop it to Quick Draw a close-action weapon (e.g., greatsword). Don't forget the horse's attack(s). (Memorize the Mounted Combat skill section.)
* * * *
Final word: don't worry about that 12 CON; you'll do just fine as a "chaladin" spamming Lay on Hands.
This is a game with serious issues. The DM should put you all at the same level, drop silly rules like low-cost templates, 0 levels of prestige classes and NPC class levels for PCs, and allow rebuilds. Also toss out people who aren't actually interested in being in the game.
Who's to say the bored players are even the bad ones? How does your character have a even a slight chance to feel unique when there's an aasimar werewolf dragon in the party? How does this represent an immersive storytelling environment in the slightest?
Brilliant! You've managed to ignore exactly *100%* of my post, including the one, small part you actually quoted! You win the prize!
Also comparing other class's capstone does not make the rogue better, and rogue is still not any more dangerous to your wizard than any other class.
Wrong. No other class is liable to have maximum ranks in a dozen class skills.
Fear rogues in combat? Pshaw. I fear rogues *out* of combat.
Once again any class can use UMD. I even had a barbarian with it once...
Once again, we've already had that discussion in the other thread.
A 10th-level CRB rogue can easily have a 0% chance to fail a DC30 UMD check to emulate alignment or class feature. Not 5%. *0%*. -- Your dabbler barbarian will never be that good. Ever. Not even at 20th level.
So, do you have any advice on making rogues fun as rogues, or are you just here to poop on the class (as is the common, low entertainment of many trolls on these forums who seriously need to find a new hobby)?
1) halfling rogue(X)/paladin(Y) multiclass, both core
5 races, 8 classes, over a dozen known languages
It's sickeningly good in the right crunchy mix:
STR:14 INT:07 (human)
01 cler1 [Crusader/Shizuru: Repose(Souls:Touch the Spirit World)][WF:Katana], Channel Smite, Guided Hand
...and you're flurrying with a katana, using WIS for attacks and AC, and getting Ki back every time you crit (which is going to happen a lot after Keen). With a headband, your WIS is 22 by 5th or thereabouts (also the level you'll be up to three attacks per round Flurrying with Ki, or four if the party is Hasted). Oh, and de facto Ghost Touch whenever you need it, because you eventually will.
There's one more major problem with the rogue you didn't mention. His main job is scouting and he's just not survivable. He can't fight his way out of trouble.
He's not supposed to.*
That's what escape and stealth and use magic device are for.
-- The party is for fighting.
You go back and get them.
= = = =
(*Note that a slippery rogue is going to come back from a mano-a-mano contest off alone with an over-powered monster more often than the hapless ranger or scout with lesser chances of wriggling out of a grapple.)
Don't try to be a fighter when you're not a fighter.
See name of class: it doesn't say "fighter".
= = = = = =
The First Time I Learned Rogues Were Awesome:
Circa fifteen years, some Living Greyhawk organized-play module in which we, the overconfident PCs, were playing too far "up" when we really shouldn't have been.
Encounter: ambushed by thugs with spiked-chains in an ally. Now, these were 3rd-edition rule spiked-chains, carried by bruisers with Power Attack and Improved Trip, and wez-a-gonna-be-dead.
Then the "idiot" who wore a pot on his head and fought with a soup-ladle walked right up to and past all of them. Whiff!-whiff!-whiff!-whiff!.
-- With Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise ("How suboptimal! How to do I get DPR out of that?!?"), they couldn't hit his armor-class.
-- Once we knew they didn't have Combat Reflexes and the rogue had burned their AoOs, we pounded the tar out of them.
That guy carried the whole party through that scenario. He had more skillpoints than the rest of the table put together.
How does this compare to an archer cleric (especially one that can take AoO with a bow)?
A reach cleric is a clobbering machine right out of the gate at 1st level. Bow clerics take a long time to get going due to glacial feat acquisition.
Reach clerics get better when they get bigger; bow clerics get worse.
Bows are expensive; polearms are cheap.
Power Attack delivers more bang than Deadly Aim.
Archer clerics have greater range, but don't control the battlefield.
All the core feats and spells a reach cleric utilizes most are in the CRB; an effective archer cleric requires material from other sources you may not own and/or the GM allow.
"The best defense is a good offense" is a reflexively-quoted aphorism which is usually wrong; and especially so in higher-level PFS death-mods, where the winning characters aren't the ones who dish out the most DPR, but the ones who manage to get the job done with the least risk of dying.
If your character is isolated (i.e., hello pit trap leading to an underground lair), not getting killed while you're holding out until the cavalry arrives is far more important than being able to drop one extra monster of a pack before it tears you to shreds.
-- When, as a GM, I'm staring at two 3rd-level melee character sheets, and see...
...versus something like...
(Both builds with 22pts spend in that block of four stats.)
...I know right away which PC is more likely to die repeatedly until he retires his character (to then make the next DPR flavor-of-the-week... "Hello, magus!"), and which one was thought out with an eye toward flexibility and survivability.
And here's the funny thing: it's entirely possible that both characters would have been nearly identical at, say, 13th level. But the aspect which most fascinated the player -- as readily apparent on their low-level character sheet -- is always a good "tell" for me.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"Isolation" -- In a home game with a stable group, your allies (both the meat-puppets and and their characters) are a known commodity to you, as are you to them. In such a group, your barbarian with beached-whale armor-class is buffed and healed as an after-thought by the party, and the casters plan their lists with you in mind. You 2hPA struts like a god.
In PFS, you pull your character out at a convention where table balance hasn't been tweaked to perfection by months of prior cooperative play among a group of friends who've selected each other's company for their endearing social attributes. Instead, you suddenly find yourself in the company of similarly-minded DPR junkies, like gish casters who want to buff themselves or their pets instead of battlestudmuffin you in defiance of any logical strategy, or STR:18 machinegun archers with full hitpoints and a rusty greatsword across their back who won't enter melee even when an ally is bleeding on the ground and about to eat a coup de grace. Your 2hPA is in for a world of pain.
Angel-blooded Aasimar ( Human would probably be better but I like the fluff of the race) as alternative racial traits I chose Deathless spirit , Scion of Humanity and TruespeakerNot seeing the need for Deathless Spirit (since, as a paladin, you are the guy in the party least likely to blow a fortitude save versus any death effects); giving up those free resistances for those times when you're eating half-damage, or when swallowed, is hard to justify trading away. Scion is OK. Truthseeker I like a lot (Sense Motive is much more useful to you than Perception).
Congrats on taking my favorite 15,14,14,14,12,07 array -- and don't let anybody talk you out of dumping wisdom in a paladin (especially for PFS). But switch INT and DEX -- there are no campaign impediments preventing you from buying heavy eastern armors with better AC/DEX ratios; and your AC is going to get beat on ten times more often than you'll find yourself wishing you had that 4th skill.
Magical Knack or Dangerously Curious or Armor Expert or Reactionary or Birthmark.IMO, Dangerously Curious and Reactionary. Failing some mobility-related skill checks at low levels is made up for by not having a wasted trait by the time you're flying at higher levels. Or trading Reactionary for something. (I don't mind going last as a paladin.)
I like Fey Foundling a lot.
IMO, suck in your gut and take Quick Draw at 3rd. Buy a light quickdraw shield. Broaden your inventory to include ranged, polearms, heavy and light melee. Be that guy in the party that always has the right instrument at all times. Then take Power Attack and Deadly Aim. Unsantioned is nice -- but by the time you have enough slots/day to even use it, you can just UMD a consumable. I'd trade it for Vital Strike, Mounted Combat, or something else you're likely to use more than once per encounter.
That one is the winner -- being able to still dish it out in non-ideal circumstances (no full-attack, no sneak) is what keeps you alive. Works well with Spring Attack and Ki speed-bursts keeping you out of the enemy's 5'.
Stats: (15,14,14,14,12,07 pre-racial 20pt array)
Racial archetype: none (claws forfeits sword-trained, so no free elf sword prof)
00 01/03/02 base save bonuses F/R/W
*This R2 dip provides ninja-lacking shield and longbow proficiencies, shores up horrid Fort save, accesses Precise Shot without PBS, classes climb/swim/survival [have a rank each by 3rd], and Guide grants a very nice daily power-up that never, ever gets old.
Benefit: The feat ensemble of Quick Draw, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse and Precise Shot by 4th-level provides great combat flexibility involving longbows, elven curve sword, wakizashi, shurikens, and a light quickdraw shield + mithral chainshirt armor combination
Weakness: as is usual with rogues, will-save is abysmal. Have a plan for dealing with it.
Considering all the hate this feat gets, you'd think it was nearly the worst option in the game. But it is? Let's crunch some mathy bits....
james maissen wrote:
I normally don't give any of those to a paladin. But VS isn't worse; and is arguably an awesome combat feat for those "now you suck" situations (see below).
The Vital strike feat was a nice idea.. it is far too weak to be a suggestion. They were perhaps far too conservative when they made it for it to be a viable option.
A 2hPA-focused character does 4d6 on a move/attack with a greatsword, same as a large T-rex mount. VS applies to any weapon, including ranged weapons; and permits you to make the best of perpetual move-and-attack situations robbing you of full-attack capability.
Given an iconic +1/flaming greatsword wielded by a STR 18 character, he'll average 17.5 on a normal 2h chop. Vital Strike's extra two dice represent a 40% gain in average damage. Versus a target with DR5, Vital Strike's +7 represents a 56% improvement over the weaker base damage. Versus a target with DR10, 14.5 is a whopping 93% gain over 7.5.
In a scenario involving, say, an on-foot battle with a golem who ignores you while pursuing the squishy ally who triggered it (continually moving out of your threatened zone), Vital Strike compares favorably to Power Attack, where the greatsword attack ia +1/+1 attack/damage between BAB6 and BAB8 versus Power Attack, and +2/-2 attack/damage from BAB8 to BAB12.
Take a low-fantasy/cash-poor 15pt-buy campaign in which the PC in question has a STR of only 14 and sword-and-boards a +1 longsword: 2d8+2 is 69% better than 1d8+2. Versus DR5, a 2d8-3 Vital Strike attack is 400% better than 1d8-3 (which fails to penetrate 37.5% of the time).
-- A great many combat feats only kick in when everything is going your way and you're performing your signature "everything, including the kitchen sink" penultimate maneuver. Vital Strike, otoh, shines when you're nerfed, keeping you viable.
I think everyone agrees that Vital Strike is poorly worded; but for what it does, by-the-numbers it's a pretty good feat.
01 pala1 [Divine Hunter][Precise Shot], Quick Draw
...the idea here is two round's worth of Hasted d8+9+(every other buff plus magic) thrice, then twice, without buying one damned archery feat aside from the paladin-granted Precise Shot. The character is otherwise played like a typical bard/paladin DEX-based multiclass (who, in the case, does not suck in melee prior to Agile upgrades).
The crossbow's superior threat ranges complements the good numeric bonuses to damage. Watching the character pull a succession of giant darkwood crossbows out of his haversack, and tossing them up onto a hat-rack/helmet when they're spent (or he needs to melee, since he can't Dervish while holding another weapon), will be comical -- and getting the rest of the table to laugh is what it's all about.
I have followed a lot of advice, but I can't follow all of it when it's contradictory. (For example, I can't both have odd numbers to bump at 4th and 8th AND have all even numbers from first level.)
Thugsalot's paint-by-numbers guide to making an awesome 20pt character every time:
1) Q. Does my concept require good numbers in every stat?
2) Q. Does my concept have one dump stat, but need the rest good?
3) Q. Is character to be min/maxed, but with only one dump stat?
4) Q. Is this character a shamelessly min/maxed "save or suck" caster?
= = = = =
halfling rogue2/paladinX starting stats
The "bonus density" of the very efficient 15,14,14,14,12,07 array really becomes apparent in races with a +2/-1 stat adjustment. This small race character manages to swing two main stats of 16 or higher and still have three other stats 12 or higher, including the one that's the racial dump!
At 4th or thereabouts, a bump in the prime stat plus a belt yields a dexterity of 20, for an effective stat array of 20,16,14,12,12,07.
When creating a character, put yourself in the mentality of, "What are his stats after 4th with his first stat item?" The best point-buy payoff is for a 15 race-bumped to a 17, level-bumped at 4th to an 18, then item-bumped to a 20. Getting that 20 in a prime stat for a measly *seven* build points plus cash is about the very best thing you can do to supercharge utility and survivability. You have thirteen remaining build points -- two-thirds left -- to make a well-rounded character who's not a boring one-trick-pony. (If there's one thing PFS module writers do very well, it's mess with one-trick-pony expectations).
Do you think the Dagger Master prestige class can be used as is for pathfinder?Our opinion isn't relevant; your GM's opinion is relevant.
I am aware of the Knife Master archetype, but I really don't like it.
Why? An KM TWFing kukris is as nasty as another rogue TWFing wakizashis (and man, is that awesome). Does obviate the very nice River Rat dagger-oriented trait, however; so it's only optimal in the higher level game with Keen, Critical Focus and some sort of pounce ability.
The Agile enhancement duplicates the DM's dex>damage ability (so you can min/max a halfling for nice damage). Not cheap, however (so you'll have to be happy with the d8 sneak dice before then).
Traits: Berserker of the Society, River Rat
01 barb1 [Urban], Extra Rage
Equipment: Gloves of Dueling, two +1/Agile/Furious daggers (one cold iron, the other silver), Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Celestial Armor, wand of Mage Armor (UMD prior to Celestial)
Combat role: crossbow plinker until 3rd, then flank-buddy specialist
AC: 27 while DEX-raging in Celestial, not counting anything else
Attack bonus at 8th while DEX-raging: 7[BAB]+8[DEX]+1[size]+4[WF+WT+GoD]+3[Furious] = +23 standard, or +18/+18/+13/+13 TWF/Piranha (not counting any flanking bonus)
Damage (rage/sneak/Piranha): 1d3+8[DEX]+3[Furious]+5[WS+WT+GoD]+6[Piranha]+1[rat]+2d8[sneak] = ~33.5 each
...not bad for a pint-sized punk with d3 weapons and only two sneak dice.
Poisons are expensive, and tend to have easily-beaten saves.
Since shurikens are weapons and not unarmed strikes, their damage will not scale with leveling as a monk. Therefore, I'd recommend being ninja for the build (monk flurrying then basically granting pseudo rapid shot). The ninja trick Flurry of Stars is the real meal-ticket.
Going high strength will MAD the build (costing ranged attack-bonus and Ki uses as DEX and WIS/CHA are lowered to pay for it); if you're using shurikens, you'll should be eying bonus damage from non-stat effects like sneak-attack or weapon spec (etc). Given all the attack penalties ranged combat inflicts, you really don't want to sack attack bonus if you can help it.
racial trait: Ancestral Arms
01 ninj1 00 01 04 02 SA+1d6, Combat Expertise, EWP:Fauchard
* INT:13 necessary for Combat Expertise > Moonlight Stalker
Equipment: Keen Fauchard, gobs of shurikens, wand of Mage Armor, Goz Mask, any of several means of obtaining concealment
-- This is a very sneaky build on multiple levels: it takes *three* odd stats at character-creation, MADs all to heck, and takes three BAB=0 classes back-to-back early -- any min/maxer only briefly glancing at your character sheet would think you're nuts.
Goal: be Moonlight Stalking whenever possible. Having +2/+2 is like having your prime stat be four higher. If your victim is also blind relative to you (he will be if you enjoy total concealment), this his additional penalties are equivalent to you being a rage-alky mutagen junkie versus a normal aware opponent, but doing it without pimped stats.
Pictures enemies stumbling around blind in the murk trying to find you while eating Power Attack AoOs from your fauchard, then getting Sneak-zinged by four Deadly Aim/Flurry of Stars shurikens.
"OK; I can imagine that being really awesome... but how do I see through my own mist and darkness?"
Goz Mask: 8,000gp; Inner Sea World Guide. PFS legal. Save your pennies, and don't flub your Fame acquisition.
Reminds me of a brand new PFS party in which two of the players made complementary "300"-style Phalanx Soldier fighters (0ne of the players also grew his beard just like a Spartan warrior out of the movie). They took the trait Defender of the Society and the Dodge feat, and spent their meager starting cash on Four Mirror armor (they had DEX:14 each) and tower shields...for 1st-level ACs of 24. The bad guys at Tier-2 could only hit them on natural 20s.
But they would roleplay every infrequent, minor scratch as if were life-threatening trauma:
"Oh! My brother! You have been WOUNDED!" (after one of them was nat-20/no-confirmed for 3 pts of damage)
-- We all just about died laughing.
Realism? <rubbing hands in glee> Me-sah know what to do when chaotic-evil players try to pass themselves off as lawful-good paladins:
*Bam!* *Bam!" *Bam!* "Open up in the name of the law! <constabulary smashes down door> "Sir Doofus, you are hereby under arrest for the murder of Petey Rangel, alias 'Lazy Eye', the used arms dealer, and his shop assistant, 'Squirrely' Jim. -- Killing them in broad daylight in front of half the town wasn't really the brightest of your plans, now was it? ...Please say you're resisting arrest."
Paladin: "Dang, nabitty! I am sick and tired of assassin vines and golems. *sigh* Sometimes I just wish for a footpad trying to shiv me for my coin who was tough enough that I couldn't drop him in one hit without smiting.....
Monk: "I have eight extra attacks per day, more if I can find time to nap. They work on anything. And it's all powered by the same perspicacity which helps me avoid being hit without all that costly armor weighing you down!"
Paladin: "Have I ever told you how much I'm starting to hate you? I swear, the feeling is growing worse and worse by the hour. Are you evil yet? <squint> *Dammit!*"
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Look, step back for a second. They're at 4th level. The "munchkin" character is a monk. Which means in another few levels (more or less, depending on yes/no railroading and encounter design), he'll be soundly and routinely overshadowed at everything he can do by everyone else in the party (assuming they're not playing NPC classes or PF rogues).*ahem*
I previously wrote:
Thanks to the new, IMO poorly advised, FAQ Paizo has gone with in conjunction to the 6th printing's text for Flurry, the definition of munchkining now encompasses "I'll burn Ki to two-hand Power Attack three times a round at 4th level with my temple sword!"
...I've seen low-level monks completely slaughter modules with this stupid, broken mechanic. Remember, a monk flurrying is only -1 relative to fighter BAB; this means a monk's flurry attacks versus raw BAB are -1/-1/-1(Ki) versus a TWF fighter's -2/-2.
Thanks to Paizo's odd-ass rulings, monks can now 2hPA better than fighters. (Balance is restored higher up when the fighter's feats and class features gel, but it's very annoying for a GM to have to deal with these hog-the-show monstrosities in low-level adventures.)
"But I wanna play Star Wars in the Knights of the Old Republic era, not crummy old fantasy D&D! Waaaa...."
-- And when the "It's all about me!" mentality clashes with a GM's "I'm tired of that crap." attitude, who wins the argument?
If I'm running a Game of Thrones setting, your lost Martian isn't stepping out of a crashed flying-saucer no matter how cool it is in next year's Paizo splat.
I think vanilla fighters ARE PRC bait, straight out. I actually think they are outdated; as I think "straight from the core book" rogues are outdated. The core rulebook was Paizo attempting to take 3.5 DND and do as minimal changes as possible;<stare> ...fighter is generally regarded as one of the most greatly improved classes in the game (see below)
Even many of the archtypes should eventually be multi-classed; often sooner than 9th. For my PFS fighter (polearm-tripper, polearm specialist), I took him to Inquisitor @ 6th level to get the growth domain and some other options.Well, forfeiting a point of BAB for Swift Enlarge is more a testament to the broken cheese of that domain than the alleged suckiness of fighter. (This same argument applies to that rogue thread in which you counseled against a level of cleric.)
.Paizo really should have thought a little more about high levels for fighting-types giving more abilities.
The straight fighter is the class which eventually is highly mobile with the best all-around AC, dishes out amazing damage to any opponent, and whose iterative attacks have better bonuses to hit than most other characters' primary attacks.
Take the Valeros 12th-level iconic, rearrange his stats for a 22 DEX and Agile weapon, give him Gloves of Dueling and mithral full plate, and he'll be juicing every bit of that +6 dexterity bonus to AC in full-plate via Armor Training and be snarfing a theoretical +7/+7 attack/damage with his chosen Weapon Training group thanks to the gloves and the lesser and greater weapon Focus and Specialization feats. Instead of longsword+shortsword, give him a pair of shorts to collapse the feat/training spread (so instead of Weapon Training in heavy blades, light blades and bows, he he'd have WT+2(+2Gloves) in light blades and WF/GWF/WS/GWS in shortsword, and WT+1(+2Gloves) in bows. For even better kick ass, a trait for wakizashi proficiency, and go with those instead of shortswords; with Critical Focus, he'll be confirming crits on his -10 iterative at the same or higher attack bonus as most other PC's primary attack.
Yeah, paladin is a pretty good dip.
Well, maybe it is...what are this dwarf's stats? Is his charisma garbage? (IMO you either take two or more levels of paladin or no levels.)
Stalwart Defender requires Endurance (which rangers get at 3rd), so why not Ranger3/figh4? If you think you'll be shield-and-waraxe most of the time, take Weapon and Shield Style at rang2, and be the Weapon Master fighter archetype. Ranger will also give you a crapton of useful skills.
They're 3rd-level and stupid.
(Then, smarter, they make new characters who aren't as dumb.)
-- Do not nerf the opposition, ever; it is up to the PCs to employ Auguries, divination magic, talk to NPCs (etc) to get a gauge on what sort of opposition they may be facing.
Make your world powerful and mysterious, and your players will love you for it.
Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
A level 1 human Order of the Sword Cavalier can reach Are You Kidding Me, Really levels of damage (+9 to hit, 1d8+11x2/x4) pretty easily.
Gendarme is the (only?) cavalier route to three feats at 1st level (for Spirited Charge), but you need four feats to pull off the -1att/+6dmg 2h Power Attack/Spirited Charge lance exploit....
...not seeing how x4 comes about at 1st (unless we're talking unlikely crits).
1) Sleep can drop the entire opposition if all roll poorly.
2) barbarians will auto-drop most opponents.
3) Lance charges will auto-drop most opponents.
4) Rapid-shot/Flurry/TWF will drop most double-tapped opponents.
I'd go with an elf paladin on warhorse: he'll be immune to Sleep or Slumber and have a racial defense against other magic.
Basically just tank and kill with four attacks vs any adjacent. Feat: Mounted Combat.
Forfeiting pally6 weakens the mount, drops our ref and will saves, costs us a Mercy (Diseased is a solid choice) as well as caster-level, and drops Lay on Hands from 3d6/4-a-day to 2d6/three-a-day, as well as affecting Channel similarly. ....so, no; Pally6 is pretty damned important: there isn't an "our fifth choice" feat in the game worth giving up all that.
Multiclassing also makes our "tired of the BS" GM frown (that being why I kept it straight class CRB). Lastly, if the GM ever does grant an extra level (which I suspect he might), pally7 grants a second level spell (w/circlet) and a third +7 damage Smite per day (these being a lot more useful than fighter2 for another feat as a leveling pally5/figh2).
The reason I put Quick Draw in there instead of Spirited Charge is because it is actually situationally more useful. Example: you're afoot fighting w/bardiche; you drop foe with first attack, Quick Draw your bow and make your iterative against another opponent. Same thing while mounted has you free-action stowing quickdraw shield and then snapping off a shot. So, it grants extra attacks while simultaneously appearing "non-munchkin" (unlike Spirited Charge) to your GM.
Damage is already adequate in this low-capped campaign -- especially versus a Smite-buddy, upon whom a mounted lance charge yields 2d8+6+12 with an ordinary sharp stick (then you Ride-by out of his 5'). So, we take only two Mounted feats, saving the other two for "flexible response". ...and because I love Quick Draw, a very under-rated feat which we'll be using constantly.
The nastiest TWF I've ever seen is a samurai with a splash of barbarian[urban] and fighter[unarmed]. All DEX, dumped STR.
Equipment around 10th: Agile/Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1/Agile/Furious wakizashi, +1/Keen cestus, Celestial Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity.
Feats: Mounted Combat (1), Weapon Finesse (1), TWF (3), Dragon Style (fighter dip), Extra Rage (5), I-TWF (7), Improved Critical:wakizashi (Samurai6), Critical Focus(9).
Melee full-attack: several wakizashi strikes, while off-hand makes cestus punches (Dragon Style + Agile Amulet = 1.5x pain on the first).
At 11th & Greater TWF, you're ladling on +9hp damage to each hit from Challenge (or 63 damage alone from Challenge while Hasted if you connect every hit).
-- You're basically a BBEM destroyer; since your weapons are light, you can keep shredding in grapples or even when swallowed whole.
Our perceptions of what constitutes optimized are, IMO, severely distorted to maximum DPR builds of realistically dubious worth.
I.e., the Power Attacking barbarian who can split the moon in half but needs 100pts worth of healing after finishing a three-round combat is considered "over-powered", while the dwarf tank with Combat Expertise who slowly but reliably motors through every combat while taking nary a scratch isn't.
By the numbers, said dwarf is much more "over-powered" versus CR -- but nobody complains because he isn't flashy.