Ok, I think it is from some comic or something. My friend wants to make a build that uses 2 bastard swords or 2 scizore. Those are the largest and highest damage one handed weapons.
He is aware that his hit chances won't be as high. But he is hoping he can get the damage level up to the point that when he does hit, he will do enough damage to even out over the long run. He was planning on making heavy use of potions of Enlarge Person (or maybe a wand), Lead Blades, and eventually the Impact enchantment on the blades.
Undecided on whether a strength build (using ranger to get the basic 2WF feats) or a more typical dex build to qualify for many different two weapon fighting feats (since he can't finese them anyway).
We know it won't be the most optimal build, but he thinks it would seem kool if it is at least good enough to be functional. What do you think? Have you seen someone try it? How did it work out? Any suggestions for the build?
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Titan Mauler barb at lv2 can dual wield greatswords.
Anyone with the exotic weapon proficiency can dual wield bastard swords.
2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 ~ 14 at -6 to hit
1d10 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 ~13.5 at -4 to hit
That means at lv4 you're looking at +6/+6 to hit for 3d8+7 damage when raging after lead blades and enlarge goes down, DPR 22.55. AC at lv4 for enemies is like 17, so you need an 11 or better to hit. With power attack too you're at +4 to hit for ~24.5 damage, DPR 21.56.
A normal barb at lv4 with power attack and greatsword is at +8 for 4d6+16 damage when raging after lead blades and enlarge goes down, DPR 19.8. Only needing a 9 or better.
At lv 8 adding in str belt and +1 weapons
2WF is looking at +12/+12/+7 for 3d8+9 DPR 38.36
1W is looking at +13/+8 for 4d6+22 DPR 41.58
So on a full attack it'll be just a little weaker than using 1 weapon, but if you can't full attack it's a lot weaker. If you're going to try for this you'll want to look for as many attack bonuses as you can to get that accuracy better, as that'll let you outpace the one weapon build.
TWF only requires 17DEX to do well, and 17DEX is easy to get on a strength-based build - Dual Talent Human and 20 point buy makes it very easy, though it's quite possible otherwise.
There are also many ways to stack-up absurdly strong combat bonuses to the point that an extra -2 from two large weapons isn't really that big a deal, so it's not always necessary to negate that. Builds with buffing classes that can spam long and short term buffs on themselves can often reach huge static bonuses that work well for TWF damage, though a straight Fighter is always effective of course.
Two notable dips for a TWF character are 1 level of Medium with Champion Spirit for a straight +3 damage to all attacks, and of course one level of Urban Barbarian or Bloodrager to use Furious Weapons (huge help with getting to weapons up to +3) and a STR bonus with no penalties (Extra Rage for more uses/day).
ID Rager bloodrager, dedicated phantom makes all your attacks count as one size larger. No need for enlarge. Possessed hand and hands autonomy reduces twf negatives down by 2. Dutiful strike from the phantom gives +2 vs the target that hit you. This is on top of the bonuses from raging.
Add in the 2 lvl dip titan mauler and your swinging around 2 2hers.
Speaking of using huge combat bonuses, I keep mentioning this lately...
Fighter 1/ Strength Patron Ley-Line Guardian Witch 4/ Dragon Disciple 4
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 14/16DEX, 14CON, 15INT, 8WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
1F. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Quick Draw
2W.
3W. Arcane Strike
4W. +1STR
5W. Weapon Focus: Longsword
6DD. +1AC
7DD. +2STR / +Power Attack / Double Slice
8DD. +1DEX / +1AC
9DD. +2STR / +1AC / Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
With Heroism and Divine Favor and Dragon Strength, even using Power Attack isn't an issue. The damage is just brutal. If you really want an exotic sword, drop focus.
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I have seen you post this build a couple times now so I decided to build it out to see what it looks like. Can you tell me if I have the THF build ball parked correctly? (used the stats you posted above)
Attack:
I'm looking at a base +17 to hit (STR +7, bab +6, Weapon +2, WF +1, Ioun stone +1). Then add heroism +2, divine favor +4, -2 power attack.
Damage:
Weapon damage + str 10 + 2 weapon + 6 PA + 4 Divine Favor
= +22
That's a +21 to hit when power attacking.
AC:
With mage armor = 10 + 3 DEX + 2 Ring of P + 2 Amulet of NA + 2 natural armor + 4 mage armor + 1 ioun stone.
Puts you in the mid 20's. 24ish
Saves:
Fort 10, Ref 9, Will 8
(with a + 3 cloak included)
I have seen you post this build a couple times now so I decided to build it out to see what it looks like. Can you tell me if I have the THF build ball parked correctly? (used the stats you posted above)
You missed Arcane Strike, not that the +2 is that big a deal, especially when using a two-handed weapon. Also, Dragon Disciple applies the +1AC at level 3 of Draconic Bloodline as well as the Dragon Disciple AC bonuses.
The way it's posted up there would be for running two weapons, which would make the chance to hit and damage calculation lower (at least per weapon). With two longswords (ideally Effortless Lace, though that's not PFS legal), it would be four base strikes that do 1d8+19/1d8+17. Of course, this is responding to the OP's criteria; as a TWF build it could be put together more efficiently without using two swords. Also, for a TWF build it may be worth grabbing Deliquescent Gloves.
Arcane Armor Training instead of Double Slice will bump up AC with a mithral kikko at the cost of some damage if desired. You can also run the build with a light shield and Improved Shield Bash instead of Quick Draw, which loses little in exchange for a healthy AC bump. Or just run it sword and cestus, save a feat, and make all non-TWF attacks with two hands on your mainhand.
Overall, if running the build for a two-handed weapon, you can run it with one level of Urban Bloodrager, and instead of the 3 TWF feats and Quick Draw you can take some Extra Rage and Arcane Armor Training (so you can back off on the DEX and maybe start a nice 17/17 with STR/INT). You can take Mad Magic if you want to be able to cast spells after turning Rage on without having to turn it off. It's not bad as a TWF concept and I think it's pretty decent even if saddled with two large weapons, but as a Rage-user wielding a Furious two-handed weapon with another +4STR... yikes.
Though my favorite version of EK/Witch doesn't use Dragon Disciple; instead of Ley-Line Guardian you use Synergist Witch, and you use Improved Familiar with a Sylvanshee to gain Pounce, bite and flight. Then you also take the Nails Hex, and you do your TWF with a level of Unarmed Fighter to grab base Dragon Style and Improved Unarmed Strike. So you've got a TWF Pounce build with a sword mainhand, a Dragon Style unarmed strike offhand, and a bite and claw, all feeding off of Arcane Strike and Divine Favor.
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There is the 2 weapon Fighter Archetype. That will allow your friend to use 2 Bastard Swords, 1 in either hand, at level 11.vanilla fighter can do that at lvl 5
Yup:
05: figh5 [WT+1:bastard sword], Advanced Weapon Training (Effortless Dual-Wielding)
Effortless Dual-Wielding (Ex) The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.
Now guzzle an Enlarge potion to be TWFing a pair of 2d8 weapons with 10' reach.
Note: the bastard swords aren't treated as light for other purposes, e.g. usage in grapples, etc.
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@Badbird
Thanks. I have a few favourite builds that use favored favlored I wanted to compare to. Battle oracle puts o similar numbers. Basically lacking heroism. But can quicken divine favor (magical linage) and throw up a a second buff Righteous might at 10).
I have a monk 1 shaman x that plays similarly but has bane and weapon spec.
Evangelist cleric animal domain.
It's cool to see prestige class builds that put up good numbers. Did you find these builds bumpy through the middle levels. Prestige classes always seem to have much more uneven growth than other builds.
The Human Ulfen Ethnicity Trait called Weapon Training from Inner Sea Races gives you +1 damage with axes (Battleaxe, Throwing Axe, Handaxe, and Greataxe), bows (long and short), swords (Bastard Sword, Greatsword, Longsword, and Short Sword), and hammers (Light Hammer and Warhammer). Every little bit helps.
There's also the Sun Blade to help keep those TWF penalties down.
Weapon Training is also not PFS-legal.
Source? Additional Resources doesn't say this.
Weapon Training is also not PFS-legal.
Yes, I missed that.
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05: figh5 [WT+1:bastard sword], Advanced Weapon Training (Effortless Dual-Wielding)Isn't it level 9 when fighters get that?
They do. But by taking the identically-named feat they can get it earlier.
Contributor
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It looks like she meant the trait Weapon Training, not the Fighter ability Advanced Weapon Training or the feat Advanced Weapon Training.
This is correct. Since I posted it immediately after the post that mentioned the race trait, it didn't occur to me that folks might read it as referring to the fighter options. Oops. ^_^
@Badbird
Thanks. I have a few favourite builds that use favored favlored I wanted to compare to. Battle oracle puts o similar numbers. Basically lacking heroism. But can quicken divine favor (magical linage) and throw up a a second buff Righteous might at 10).
I have a monk 1 shaman x that plays similarly but has bane and weapon spec.
Evangelist cleric animal domain.
It's cool to see prestige class builds that put up good numbers. Did you find these builds bumpy through the middle levels. Prestige classes always seem to have much more uneven growth than other builds.
Well, it depends on the classes. The most common thing is that all classes with delayed BAB wait a little longer for extra attacks. A classic Eldritch Knight, and especially a classic Dragon Disciple, will have a low-point before getting Heroism and their second BAB attack. But it always also depends on what else is going on with a given mix of classes.
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It looks like she meant the trait Weapon Training, not the Fighter ability Advanced Weapon Training or the feat Advanced Weapon Training.This is correct. Since I posted it immediately after the post that mentioned the race trait, it didn't occur to me that folks might read it as referring to the fighter options. Oops. ^_^
There are now so many elements with similar or even identical names that it can be hard to keep track. Every time someone mentions the Occultist (Arcanist archetype) I get a bad case of cognitive dissonance. Every single time. :D
In fact I missed the PFS restriction on Weapon Training because my eye was drawn to the Racial Traits section. Human Ethnicity Traits are Race Traits rather than Racial Traits, but my brain glitched and I ended up missing the Traits section where it was listed as non-legal.
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That reminds me, I need to convince someone to let me make an Arcanist archetype for the occultist.
(I kind of did, but it had a fancier name and some industrial-strength balance concerns.)
That. Would. Be. Hilarious!
If you did that I would have to multiclass Occultist Arcanist with Arcanist Occultist. I would have no choice.
Looks like we will have to get the Weapon Masters Handbook.
Assuming I get that, do you guys think it is better to do this as a Weapon Master or Two Weapon Fighter archtype? Or I suppose even warpriest get a bunch of bonus combat feats. But then it is becoming pretty MAD.
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It looks like she meant the trait Weapon Training, not the Fighter ability Advanced Weapon Training or the feat Advanced Weapon Training.This is correct. Since I posted it immediately after the post that mentioned the race trait, it didn't occur to me that folks might read it as referring to the fighter options. Oops. ^_^
Ack, got it. Learned about another trait today!
Looks like we will have to get the Weapon Masters Handbook.
Assuming I get that, do you guys think it is better to do this as a Weapon Master or Two Weapon Fighter archtype? Or I suppose even warpriest get a bunch of bonus combat feats. But then it is becoming pretty MAD.
The Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype doesn't get the Weapon Training class feature (it gets a TWF substitute), which means it doesn't qualify for the Advanced Weapon Training feats. Which is a shame. It also can't utilize Gloves of Dueling, which is another shame.
Weapon Master Fighter, on the other hand, can pick up Advanced Weapon Training with almost every single bonus feat they get, if they want to.
One combo that's potentially very strong would be Weapon Master and four levels of Warpriest, since Warpriest 4 can get swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor with the right traits. Scarred Rager Barbarian is also a very strong multiclass option, since they basically get to Rage cycle. There are endless multiclass options.
Edit: Another interesting combo would be Wild Stalker Skirmisher Ranger, which gives a Fighter way more skills to work with and then eventually grants Rage (instead of Favored Enemy) and the Skirmisher's really cool Hunter's Tricks.
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One combo that's potentially very strong would be Weapon Master and four levels of Warpriest, since Warpriest 4 can get swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor with the right traits.Which traits?
Scarred Rager Barbarian is also a very strong multiclass option, since they basically get to Rage cycle.
How do they rage-cycle? (I'm looking at d20pfsrd, where their class abilities don't seem to grant any rage-round-recovery mechanism.)
Drunken Brute can rage-cycle, but it costs him a move-action to guzzle booze, and then he barfs when his rage ends for a number of rounds equal to however many he was raging. (So, some roleplay value.)
Edit: Another interesting combo would be Wild Stalker Skirmisher Ranger, which gives a Fighter way more skills to work with and then eventually grants Rage (instead of Favored Enemy) and the Skirmisher's really cool Hunter's Tricks.
Skirmisher I can see, but I dunno about Wild Stalker...seems really weak compared to the base class by giving up FE and Bond and all weapon style feats in exchange for some thoroughly exciting lowlight, skill bonuses, Uncanny Dodge, and finally getting the barbarian's goodies (rage + Reckless Abandon) by 5th. The good news is that he apparently retains his spells...not that Instant Enemy will do him any good. Only way to get rage and Lead Blades in a straight class without paying for scrolls, I guess.
Scarred Rager can rage cycle like this (if I'm not mistaken):
- Start of turn Rage;
- Attack/Move/Use Rage Powers/etc.;
- End of turn end Rage, become fatigued;
Since scarred rager halves all fatigue duration, you should get back to non-fatigued state at the begining of your next turn, and thus start anew.
I agree, Wild Stalker sacrifices way too much perks in exchange for a couple of theme-driven bonus. Probably not worth it that much for TWF.
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Scarred Rager can rage cycle like this (if I'm not mistaken):
- Start of turn Rage;
- Attack/Move/Use Rage Powers/etc.;
- End of turn end Rage, become fatigued;Since scarred rager halves all fatigue duration, you should get back to non-fatigued state at the begining of your next turn, and thus start anew.
My assumption was that BadBird was referring to recovering rounds-of-rage, which various combos can manage. (?)
My ragers will often dip a level of cleric for the community domain's Calming Touch, which gets rid of fatigue immediately. (And then you have all the other benefits of a level of cleric in your stack.)
Correct on the Scarred Rager cycle; Rage is only on for your turn. This means you can use Reckless Abandon with impunity and there's no need for Raging Vitality. With 4 levels of Scarred, you can use Reckless Abandon for another +2 attack on top of STR and Furious weapons, and you can also throw a your-choice 1d6 elemental onto every attack with Elemental Rage.
Consider Wild Stalker Skirmisher as a multiclass option within PFS levels, not as a whole package. A multiclass Fighter 4/ Ranger will get weak FE that they'll never get to use Instant Enemy with, extremely weak spellcasting, and a companion that even Boon Companion won't save from mediocrity. They'll get their bonus feats, but few and late, so you can't practically use them for TWF.
Wild Stalker Skirmisher with 4 multiclass levels, on the other hand, gets some unsexy but very practical bonuses in the first few levels, and then picks up Rage at 8, which is universally useful and doesn't function based on level (except for rounds/day, which Extra Rage picks up) and then Hunter's Tricks at 9, which similarly don't care about level.
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So Thugsalot.
the traits are magical knack and fate's favored.
Fate's favored increases luck bonuses by 1, so divine favor is +2 at lv1, then at lv6 it upgrades to +2 so with the feat it's +3.
Magical knack makes it so you only need 4 levels of WP to eventually reach cl6 for divine favor to add +3.
Rage-cycling ISN'T getting extra rounds of rage, rage-cycling is going into rage multiple times in 1 fight to be able to use the once-per-rage powers more than once a fight.
The scarred does this by raging on their turn, turning it off on end of turn and being fatigued for 1 round instead of 2 which ends at the start of their next turn. Thus letting the rage again and use the once-per-rage powers.
Also the occultist can have rage and lead blades, by getting the rage domain via reliquarian. The divine hunter hunter as well by getting the rage domain too.
neither vanilla fighter for 5 levels and either slayer or ranger for the rest to allow twf with low dex
I think that is getting the twf feats too late for decent use in PFS.
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Weapon Master Fighter, on the other hand, can pick up Advanced Weapon Training with almost every single bonus feat they get, if they want to.One combo that's potentially very strong would be Weapon Master and four levels of Warpriest, since Warpriest 4 can get swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor with the right traits. ...
I will check with him. I would guess this will be his choice.
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Scarred Rager Barbarian is also a very strong multiclass option, since they basically get to Rage cycle. There are endless multiclass options.
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Not sure he will go for that since it doesn't help him qualify for more feats or magic. But I will check if he is interested in rage instead of the magic of war priest. But knowing him, I doubt it.
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neither vanilla fighter for 5 levels and either slayer or ranger for the rest to allow twf with low dexI think that is getting the twf feats too late for decent use in PFS.
There's no need to wait:
Tasmanian Cuisinart:
01 barb1 [urban] Two Weapon Fighting
02 rogu1 [unchained][weapon finesse]
03 rogu2 [talent:combat trick:Double Slice], Piranha Strike
04 samu1 [challenge 1/day] (wakizashi proficiency)
05 rogu3 [weapon training:wakizashi], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
-- This packs the major goody (DEX>dmg) in by 5th (and it'll happen by 4th if they ever release an unchained ninja). Could start Fighter [Weapon Master] at 6th for three levels to pick up the WT/gloves combo, and/go back to samurai, or both.
So what do you folks think of this as a build at 8th level?
Half-elf fighter (weapon master) 4/warpriest of Ragathiel 4 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 60, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 109)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +1 shield)
hp 68 (8 HD; 4d8+4d10+20)
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +7; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. enchantments, +1 bonus vs. effects targetting a Bastard sword held by you
Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 impact adamantine bastard sword +10/+5 (2d8+8/19-20) or
. . +1 impact mithral bastard sword +10/+5 (2d8+8/19-20)
Special Attacks blessings 5/day (Good: holy strike, Nobility: inspiring word), channel positive energy 2/day (DC 14, 1d6), fervor 4/day (1d6), sacred weapon (1d6, +1, 4 rounds/day), weapon training
Warpriest Spells Prepared (CL 6th; concentration +8)
. . 2nd—martyr's bargain, communal protection from evil[UC]
. . 1st—bless, divine favor, gorum's armor[ISWG], liberating command[UC]
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, stabilize
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +9 (+11 bull rush); CMD 23 (32 vs. disarm, 32 vs. sunder)
Feats Double Slice, Dual Enhancement[ACG], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Perception), Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Weapon Versatility
Traits fate's favored, magical knack
Skills Climb +6, Heal +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +15, Ride +8, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +5, Survival +6, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Aklo, Common, Elven
SQ elf blood, weapon guard
Other Gear +1 impact adamantine bastard sword, +1 impact mithral bastard sword, gloves of dueling[APG], 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Blessings (5/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Dual Enhancement When using div bond or sac wep, you may enha 2 wep or both ends of a dbl wep.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fervor (1d6, 4/day) (Su) Standard action, touch channels positive/negative energy to heal or harm. Swift to cast spell on self.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Sacred Weapon +1 (4 rounds/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant weapon enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Warpriest Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (2/day, DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Weapon Guard +1: Bastard sword (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Bastard sword (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
Weapon Versatility Weapon w/ Weapon Focus: shift grip to alter damage to B/P/S (free act.).
As far as Warpriest goes, the Fervor ability that allows casting as a swift-action also lets you cast with hands full, so that takes care of that angle.
The Cult Leader Warpriest might complement a Fighter well, since they grant extra skills and Sneak Attack (which can become 2d6 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker if you want). At higher levels, it might even be possible to work Shatter Defenses Sneak Attack into a Weapon Master/ Cult Leader, though that might be a bridge too far.
So what do you folks think of this as a build at 8th level?
** spoiler omitted **...
I would do something like Dual Talent Human 15/17STR, 14/16DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 14WIS, 7CHA. Add one to DEX for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, one to STR.
Dual Enhancement probably isn't worth it; you only have a few rounds of Sacred Weapon per day, and DE burns them twice as fast.
Two-Weapon Defence is basically straight worse than just Dodge.