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What are some example builds that use interesting melee tactics at low levels (preferably no later than level 3?)
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I'd recommend looking at the Brawler class. Their martial flexibility class feature lets you try out a variety of melee tactics.
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....reach?
The ability to carve out a 25' wide circle of PAIN that turns your damaging hits into a method of deterrence.
Pretty much anyone can get a reach build running by level 3 (power attack at 1, combat reflexes at 3? Combat reflexes at 1 and power attack at 3? Both at level 1?). The longspear is love.
Of course, it only gets fully interesting at level 6/7/9, when you get lunge, allowing you to get a pseudo full attack (full attack anything up to 20' away?) and it lets you attack first yet still preserve your AoO.
Also what is low level?
I am looking forward to playing a Swashbuckler with a dip into brawler...interesting combo...
Swashbuckler might fit your description...they parry/ riposte option can always be a good tactic with the right support...just my thoights...brawler is likely best all around becsuse of flexibility...some fighter arhetypes are good
I always worry about parry/riposte, since it faces the exact same crane wing problem- you discourage enemies from attacking you since you can invalidate their attack and damage them in turn. So they ignore you and go for the squishier party members.
Reach tends to be better, since you can act as a shield for the squishies, acting as a threat that prevents approach.
Actually, I would not use panache for parries, and use it for that blue scarf item that gives a swashbuckler an extra 5' reach with piercing weapons for 1 min. it lasts for all of most fights, and the extra hits means you are likely to get the point back.
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1st Party Paizo is notoriously bad at allowing martials to do much outside of full attacking. While some options exist, they generally require a ton of investment to even get started.
About the best I can suggest would probably be to try an Eldritch Guardian Fighter and take the Dirty Fighting feat.
This allows you to use basically any Combat Maneuver you want to, without provoking. However, this requires you to flank with your familiar, which puts it at risk. Offensively, Mauler Familiars are best for combat, however defensively, Figment Familiars are functionally immortal, so at early levels they're probably the best for this. I suggest having them take total defense or something every action though.
This build also requires you boost your STR to the highest, since Combat Maneuvers require a high STR. As such, it'll be a good idea to use Variant Multiclass (Barbarian) for the extra Strength provided by Rage.
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Cleric/Monk1 using Domain Strike and Stunning Fist. Gentle Rest, Touch of Chaos, Touch of Madness, Command... there are lots of Domain Powers that are extremely useful in melee, especially when you get them as a swift action in combat. Ascetic Style allows them to be used with a weapon if one is so inclined, as does the Conductive property (though not at 3, of course). Stunning Fist can be used with a weapon through either Ascetic or Cornugon Stun, and Mantis Style makes it mean. A Cleric/Monk can also be wisdom-based with Guided Hand, which stacks the DCs of such abilities. Woe to those who face Mantis Style Stunning Fists and Command Domain Strikes from a high-WIS character.
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A magus can do some fun things with spell combat. Not just the shocking grasp thing either. Arcane mark to do a Zorro, true strike to pull off impossible moves (better with a true strike wand and the wand wielder arcana from level 3), vanish after the attack to avoid being attacked back, color spray then stab anyone still standing, etc.
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1st Party Paizo is notoriously bad at allowing martials to do much outside of full attacking. While some options exist, they generally require a ton of investment to even get started.
About the best I can suggest would probably be to try an Eldritch Guardian Fighter and take the Dirty Fighting feat.
This allows you to use basically any Combat Maneuver you want to, without provoking. However, this requires you to flank with your familiar, which puts it at risk. Offensively, Mauler Familiars are best for combat, however defensively, Figment Familiars are functionally immortal, so at early levels they're probably the best for this. I suggest having them take total defense or something every action though.
This build also requires you boost your STR to the highest, since Combat Maneuvers require a high STR. As such, it'll be a good idea to use Variant Multiclass (Barbarian) for the extra Strength provided by Rage.
It is a little under optimized now but mutation warrior, eldritch guardian, martial master makes for a very tacticial fighter. Positioning, shared feats, picking up feats on the fly, flying (fly fox and wing discovery) self healing. Make this build super fun.
Feats like rat catcher, ghostslayer mean you are better equipped then any other fighter for hard fights. Pin down, Soulwrecking Strike, and versatile weapon cover other situations. And mutagen and dedicated adversary in addition to the extra attacks from the familiar keep the damage high.
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Unchained Monk 1/ Separatist Cleric of The Lost Prince (or anyone with Repose) 2
Dual Talent Human: 16/18, 12, 12, 10, 16/18, 7
*Domains: Repose, Wolf
1UM. (+Improved Unarmed Strike) / +Combat Reflexes / Vicious Stomp
2SC. (+Improved Trip)
3SC. Domain Strike: Gentle Rest
Two-hand a temple sword for all normal strikes, while using unarmed strike for Domain Strike and Vicious Stomp. When advancing on a target, use Unarmed Strike to trip them and apply Domain Strike, and then 'apply' Vicious Stomp. They end up on the ground... staggered. In other words, kick 'em when they're down, both figuratively and very literally.
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I had fun with a dwarf barbarian 1/magus X with Power Attack & Combat Reflexes and wielding a dwarven waraxe.
With Berserker of the Society trait, I had about 9 or 10 rounds of rage per day, enough for 1 or 2 fights per day.
2 levels of magus give you Spell Combat and Spell Strike. This lets you do fun stuff like cast enlarge person to buff and then rage and do some 2-handed Power Attacking for 2d8+ a bunch of damage with your dwarven waraxe. You can choose to not rage and wield the one-handed dwarven waraxe and nova with shocking grasp or debuff with color spray or do up close mass damage with burning hands.
The dorn-dergar would have added some extra spice to this build, but it's a two-handed weapon, so couldn't be used for Spell Combat.
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I think the inquisitor is fun and tactical. Lots of choices in combat: judgments and teamwork feats and domain abilities and spells. Lots of swift action options, so you have to plan ahead and choreograph your fights.
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I think a group of low level cavaliers, buffing each other with a bunch of different Teamwork feats, would be fun.
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I think a basic fighter 3 with Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Power Attack, and Pushing Assault is fun. Add an archetype for zest if you want. Wield a glaive and spiked gauntlet, and push them back 5 feet, step back 5 feet, and mete out those AoOs. I guess technically you're not supposed to use Stand Still and reach, but I heard somewhere the developer meant it to work that way, but didn't quite tweak the language that way. I like to use it with minions. You can add Furious Focus or Weapon Focus or something else if they're human, or drop them down to level 2. Or a human warrior 5 if you want a lower CR with lots of hit points and/or more Power Attack damage.
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A whip build?
- rogue (thug) 3
- enforcer, weapon focus (whip), whip mastery
=> you can deal lethal or nonlethal damages, trip, disarm, give the shaken/frightened/sickened conditions within 15ft (20ft if you consider 5-ft step).
=> you can go thug + scout for sneak attack on a charge at lvl.4 and add Befuddling Strike to your list of debuff.
You may prefer a stronger martial class
- fighter (mutation warrior) for the extra feats
- barbarian or bloodrager for rage
- use the rogue (thug) as a 1-lvl. dip for the [enforcer + frightening] combo
- ignore this combo and dip into cleric for the growth subdomain: swift enlarge person will grant you a reach of 30ft (+5-ft step +5ft occupied space = you can hit a target at 40ft from your original position)... or go abyssal bloodrager 4.
Other feats to consider: Improved Whip Mastery, Combat Reflexes,
Power Attack
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I'm currently using a Makeshift Scrapper Unchained Rogue (human lvl 3), with which I have loads of fun. He came online at lvl 2 with the following feats: Weapon Finesse (Bonus from class), Caught Off-Guard (Bonus from class), Throw Anything (Bonus from class), Dirty Fighting, Improved Disarm (Bonus from being human), and at lvl 2 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Equipment Trick: Heavy Combat Scabbard. He has a Strength and Dex of 16, so the weapon finesse is a bit moot. Also makes use of the Surprise Weapon Trait, for extra to hit with whatever I find laying around.
The entire build is made to disarm a person of his or her weapon, and sheet that weapon in one of the many Heavy Scabbards that the character is carrying. For that purpose my character is carrying 6 empty Heavy Scabbards, and 1 empty Large Heavy Scabbard (in case someone is wielding something big). Also, after they have lost their weapon, they are considered flat-footed against your attacks with whatever improvised weapon you use (so long they do not draw another weapon / possess Natural Weapons / have Improved Unarmed Strike / have Armor Spikes).
Just taking the weapons of humanoids and immediately stowing them away is very satisfying. Against other opponents the build is just a regular smash build, but there are more than enough levels left for other feats/talents in order to deal with those threats.
I'm a big fan of the reach weapon/natural attack combo.
They have inherent synergy in feats and ability scores (i.e. all you need for either is a good STR and Power Attack, both benefit greatly from static to hit and damage modifiers) and supplement each other nicely on the battlefield.
Round 1: position yourself in front of allies and make a single two handed attack and wait for more attacks from AoO.
Round 2 or later: Once foes close with you toss the long stick and dig in deep with claw/claw/bite/gore...
Like any reach build such a build greatly benefits from Swift Action enlarge Person effects (growth domain, Abyssal? Bloodrager)
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Suppose it depends on your definition of interesting tactics.
Sohei Monk can be "pouncing" at level 1, thanks to being able to grab Mounted Skirmisher without prereqs. This way any time your mount isn't double moving you can make your full attack with Flurry of Blows. Can even do so while wearing Light Armor, confirmed by FAQ.
Be a small race, and buy yourself a combat trained pony (45gp) to start, then multiclass into something that gets a companion for a better mount that can also attack with you.
I particularly like this mixed with Divine Commander Warpriest, which gets you a mount (that can be a wolf for a small character) and at level 4 qualifies you for Crusader's Flurry, so you can have better Flurry of Blows options.
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I'm a big fan of the reach weapon/natural attack combo.
They have inherent synergy in feats and ability scores (i.e. all you need for either is a good STR and Power Attack, both benefit greatly from static to hit and damage modifiers) and supplement each other nicely on the battlefield.
Round 1: position yourself in front of allies and make a single two handed attack and wait for more attacks from AoO.
Round 2 or later: Once foes close with you toss the long stick and dig in deep with claw/claw/bite/gore...
Like any reach build such a build greatly benefits from Swift Action enlarge Person effects (growth domain, Abyssal? Bloodrager)
Armor spikes and natural attack are good for a reach build, when you drop your reach weapon.
Use the spikes as primary weapon and claws/bite etc. as sekundary weaponsWith only beast totem ragepower investment and armor spikes you can get 5 attacks (full attack) at level 6 when hasted. (spike/spike haste/spike -5/claw -5/claw -5)
A high strength and a reach weapon are great fun at low levels: You can perform weapon based combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, sunder) without provoking, and during the low levels you have a fair chance of succeeding against most opponents without needing to invest (feats, gear) into a specific maneuver. If you add high armor to the mix you will be able to make close range maneuvers (overrun, bull-rush) with a slim chance of them hitting you with the AoO.
Of course, this stops working as you get to higher levels.
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Suppose it depends on your definition of interesting tactics.
Sohei Monk can be "pouncing" at level 1, thanks to being able to grab Mounted Skirmisher without prereqs. This way any time your mount isn't double moving you can make your full attack with Flurry of Blows. Can even do so while wearing Light Armor, confirmed by FAQ.
Be a small race, and buy yourself a combat trained pony (45gp) to start, then multiclass into something that gets a companion for a better mount that can also attack with you.
I particularly like this mixed with Divine Commander Warpriest, which gets you a mount (that can be a wolf for a small character) and at level 4 qualifies you for Crusader's Flurry, so you can have better Flurry of Blows options.
Huh... this is really cool. I didn't realize that he could bypass prereqes for those since the archetype description does not mention that. That's really cool!.
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Huh... this is really cool. I didn't realize that he could bypass prereqes for those since the archetype description does not mention that. That's really cool!.
Yeah, I've seen people miss it before.
It's specifically because the Monk bonus feat feature says, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."
And then Sohei adds to the list of what can be selected with the bonus feats feature.
Armor spikes and natural attack are good for a reach build, when you drop your reach weapon.
Use the spikes as primary weapon and claws/bite etc. as sekundary weapons
With only beast totem ragepower investment and armor spikes you can get 5 attacks (full attack) at level 6 when hasted. (spike/spike haste/spike -5/claw -5/claw -5)
So how is getting 2 extra attacks (the armor spikes) worth taking -5 to hit and half STR to damage on 3 or 4 natural attacks?
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I wouldn't say Armor Spikes are worth mixing with natural attacks. If you want more natural attacks you can just buy them.
- 50gp oni mask and the Spirit Oni Master feat gets you a gore (if you're the right alignment)
- 2700gp for an Animal Mask gets you your choice of bite or gore (for 5 minutes per day as a swift, which is basically 5 combats at 1 minute each, with some other perks)
- 8500gp for Helm of the Mammoth Lord gets you a gore and some other benefits
- 5000gp for Ring of Rat Fangs gets you a bite attack
Combining weapons and natural attacks can work well on a build that has major static bonuses. Even just going weapon/ unarmed/ weapon -5/ unarmed -5/ claw -5/ bite -5/ is arguably better than going claw/ claw/ bite. There's also multiattack.
Awesome suggestions everyone! Feeling really inspired by this thread!
I made a new thread about a reach brawler who uses trip and other combat maneuvers for lots of tactical versatility. I'm curious what other cool (flex) feats, items, etc. would go well with that concept!
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Armor spikes and natural attack are good for a reach build, when you drop your reach weapon.
Use the spikes as primary weapon and claws/bite etc. as sekundary weapons
With only beast totem ragepower investment and armor spikes you can get 5 attacks (full attack) at level 6 when hasted. (spike/spike haste/spike -5/claw -5/claw -5)So how is getting 2 extra attacks (the armor spikes) worth taking -5 to hit and half STR to damage on 3 or 4 natural attacks?
It is cheap compared to more natural attacks and I forgot about 1/2 str. bonus.
It is cheap compared to more natural attacks and I forgot about 1/2 str. bonus.Armor spikes and natural attack are good for a reach build, when you drop your reach weapon.
Use the spikes as primary weapon and claws/bite etc. as sekundary weapons
With only beast totem ragepower investment and armor spikes you can get 5 attacks (full attack) at level 6 when hasted. (spike/spike haste/spike -5/claw -5/claw -5)So how is getting 2 extra attacks (the armor spikes) worth taking -5 to hit and half STR to damage on 3 or 4 natural attacks?
It is also just plain worse than taking only your natural attacks at full BAB.
Suppose it depends on your definition of interesting tactics.
Sohei Monk can be "pouncing" at level 1, thanks to being able to grab Mounted Skirmisher without prereqs. This way any time your mount isn't double moving you can make your full attack with Flurry of Blows. Can even do so while wearing Light Armor, confirmed by FAQ.
Be a small race, and buy yourself a combat trained pony (45gp) to start, then multiclass into something that gets a companion for a better mount that can also attack with you.
I particularly like this mixed with Divine Commander Warpriest, which gets you a mount (that can be a wolf for a small character) and at level 4 qualifies you for Crusader's Flurry, so you can have better Flurry of Blows options.
Six levels of Sohei already gets you weapon training and flurry with a wide range of weapons, including the nodachi.
Just spend a couple of feats for the animal companion via Nature Soul -> Animal Ally
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Suppose it depends on your definition of interesting tactics.
Sohei Monk can be "pouncing" at level 1, thanks to being able to grab Mounted Skirmisher without prereqs. This way any time your mount isn't double moving you can make your full attack with Flurry of Blows. Can even do so while wearing Light Armor, confirmed by FAQ.
Be a small race, and buy yourself a combat trained pony (45gp) to start, then multiclass into something that gets a companion for a better mount that can also attack with you.
I particularly like this mixed with Divine Commander Warpriest, which gets you a mount (that can be a wolf for a small character) and at level 4 qualifies you for Crusader's Flurry, so you can have better Flurry of Blows options.
Six levels of Sohei already gets you weapon training and flurry with a wide range of weapons, including the nodachi.
Just spend a couple of feats for the animal companion via Nature Soul -> Animal Ally
True, but the huge benefit of using Warpriest's Fervor for Divine Favor can't be understated. It's fantastic, particularly when you've go the Fate's Favored trait. Not to mention other spell casting, free Weapon Focus, other bonus feats, etc.
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race: half-orc, racial trait: Sacred Tattoo
traits: Fate's Favored(faith), Deadeye Bowman(religion:Erastil)
01 bloodrager [urban][bloodrider:mount][draconic:claws:Power Attack], Combat Reflexes
02 warpriest1 [Divine Commander:mount][Weapon Focus:longbow]
03 warpriest2 [Fervor], Quick Draw or Extra Rage
STR+16
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:14
CHA:10
* saves are +9/+4/+7 before buffs or raging
* +3 Luck bonus to att/dmg as a swift action 3/day
* +4 raging to the physical attribute of choice
* out-of-box mounts are still badass at 3rd-level
* full cleric spell list and partial arcane spell list
* Combat Reflex Enlarged(scroll) w/polearm
* decent archer (aside from lack of Rapid Shot)
* claws only appear when raging, so not a monster in polite-society
* Acrobatics, Diplomacy, and Perception are class skills
Equipment: bardiche, lance, composite longbow, javelins, scale barding, backpack full of cheap scrolls
It is also just plain worse than taking only your natural attacks at full BAB.It is cheap compared to more natural attacks and I forgot about 1/2 str. bonus.Armor spikes and natural attack are good for a reach build, when you drop your reach weapon.
Use the spikes as primary weapon and claws/bite etc. as sekundary weapons
With only beast totem ragepower investment and armor spikes you can get 5 attacks (full attack) at level 6 when hasted. (spike/spike haste/spike -5/claw -5/claw -5)So how is getting 2 extra attacks (the armor spikes) worth taking -5 to hit and half STR to damage on 3 or 4 natural attacks?
It would be a reasonable configuration if he fought with his Pole Arm with Reach and Armor Spikes as a close back up, and in situations when he dropped his Horsechopper, just fought with his Natural Weapons.
Actually, I thought that's what he meant.
I got turned off when he started saying 'when you drop your reach weapon'.
This is why I advocate against going reach+enlarge person. You end up with a huge doughnut that can't be solved with a 5' step. It means that an enemy can get in close to you, and you can't use your polearm to attack them without using a full move action and eating your own AoOs. You start to have to worry about seriously enhancing items other than your main, big shiny, 2 handed reach weapon. Instead, you have to worry about stuff with penalties to attack and only x1 or x1/2 damage.
This guy takes that logic to the extreme- he is basically paying for 4 magical weapons worth- the polearm, the spikes, and the amulet of natural armor (which costs x2).
For all that trouble...at best, you expand the area you can perform trips and such (...when trips stop being good as you get to higher levels). And in return, you place serious flaws in your ability 'to just hit the thing until it dies'. I'd prefer just having a tactically sound reach user that stays at medium, providing enough coverage to stand as an obstacle, but it can still just swing a 2 handed weapon like normal.
I got turned off when he started saying 'when you drop your reach weapon'.
This is why I advocate against going reach+enlarge person. You end up with a huge doughnut that can't be solved with a 5' step. It means that an enemy can get in close to you, and you can't use your polearm to attack them without using a full move action and eating your own AoOs. You start to have to worry about seriously enhancing items other than your main, big shiny, 2 handed reach weapon. Instead, you have to worry about stuff with penalties to attack and only x1 or x1/2 damage.
This guy takes that logic to the extreme- he is basically paying for 4 magical weapons worth- the polearm, the spikes, and the amulet of natural armor (which costs x2).
For all that trouble...at best, you expand the area you can perform trips and such (...when trips stop being good as you get to higher levels). And in return, you place serious flaws in your ability 'to just hit the thing until it dies'. I'd prefer just having a tactically sound reach user that stays at medium, providing enough coverage to stand as an obstacle, but it can still just swing a 2 handed weapon like normal.
That's one reason my dude inspired by this thread uses a double-chained kama - you can use the same weapon at reach or for close combat.
Similarly you could fight with a dorn-dergar and take Darting Viper.
Hmm... Two-Weapon Fight with one Battle Poi? Use your first attack to throw oil on your target and then hit them with the battle poi to set them on fire.
Dwarf Fighter 3 (or another race with Exotic Weapon Proficiency)
1. Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Furious Focus
3. Point Blank Shot
Dual wield Dwarven Waraxe and throwing axe.
Throw the axe and then 2-hand the waraxe and power attack.
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This is the start of a build idea I had for a Reach Fighter.
1Fighter 1: Phalanx Soldier Archetype, Quickdraw, Power Attack, 2 Weapon
2F2: Cleave
3F3: Pike and Shield, Improved Shield BashHere is a character who is a Reach Fighter who can switch weapons at any time. When this character can get Great Cleave, he can Hit anyone within 10 feet with either Armor Spikes, his Light, Spiked Shield, his Horsechopper, or his Lucerne Hammer. Or he can 2 weapon fight with Halberd and Shield or Halberd and Armor Spikes.
This character might dip into Ranger and/or Inquisitor and get Shield Slam, Greater Bull Rush--he already has Power Attack--and Paired Opportunist by level 7. He might get Hamatula Strike so he can grapple with every hit and inflict Armor Spike Damage with every hit. I suspect the combination of Halberd and Light, Spiked Shield with Armor Spikes backed by Shield Slam and Hamatula Strike will be a devastating combination of cascading strikes. But that wouldn't get fully realized until after level 6.
Inquisitor with Growth domain would be great. But what else do you get from Inquisitor? The feats you mention are easier aqquired with your fighter.
I had fun with a dwarf barbarian 1/magus X with Power Attack & Combat Reflexes and wielding a dwarven waraxe.
With Berserker of the Society trait, I had about 9 or 10 rounds of rage per day, enough for 1 or 2 fights per day.
2 levels of magus give you Spell Combat and Spell Strike. This lets you do fun stuff like cast enlarge person to buff and then rage and do some 2-handed Power Attacking for 2d8+ a bunch of damage with your dwarven waraxe. You can choose to not rage and wield the one-handed dwarven waraxe and nova with shocking grasp or debuff with color spray or do up close mass damage with burning hands.
The dorn-dergar would have added some extra spice to this build, but it's a two-handed weapon, so couldn't be used for Spell Combat.
I think it is now possible to use a Dorn-dergar with Spell Combat. (Of course a 7th level Mindblade already could use it two-handed with Spell Combat.)
Grab a polearm.
Take, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Pushing Assault.
Enjoy forced movement shenanigans.
Grab a polearm.
Take, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Pushing Assault.
Enjoy forced movement shenanigans.
But what is a human fighter to do at levels 2 through 20? ;-)
Furious Focus, Stand Still, Exotic Weapon Proficiency fauchard, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Lunge, Cleave???
Good suggestions!
Personally, I like the build with a dwarf specializing in the Bull Rush line. Grab a Boulder Helmet and Ancestral Weapon Mastery, maybe a dip in Brawler. Lots of fun stuff you can do.