Monster Mash

Nice, can we expect class templates like these for the remaining classes in future supplements or core books (perhaps the next bestiary?), including the upcoming occult classes?

Hey, Paizo, gotta say I really love that art!

My quick question for this book is this: does it have favored class bonus options for the ACG classes for Goblins? :3

Hey, Paizo, gotta say I really love that art!

My quick question for this book is this: does it have favored class bonus options for the ACG classes for Goblins? :3

I got the download of this, and I can answer your question:

Alas, no. This is an enemies and encounter stats book, designed to help GMs create threats quickly.

From a freelancer's perspective, the simple class templates are going to make writing stat blocks for relatively simple monsters WAY easier! I'm looking forward to using these!

Excellent. Building stat blocks for monsters with class levels is completely unwieldy.

Those simple class templates look *super* useful!

This piques my interest in the Monster Codex. I will definitely check it out and consider making it a reference for my kids.

One quibble though... Must be chaotic? What if I have an angry cat who, like the honey badger, just don't care or give a s***? I would've written that as "can't be lawful". :) Still, can be houseruled easily.

Well as the GM, you can just make it Chaotic as part of adding the template, I would think. And besides, these templates are probably meant to be applied to intelligent creatures only, since they're class levels, and you can make your intelligent creature any alignment you want as the GM.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Hey, Paizo, gotta say I really love that art!

My quick question for this book is this: does it have favored class bonus options for the ACG classes for Goblins? :3

I got the download of this, and I can answer your question:

Alas, no. This is an enemies and encounter stats book, designed to help GMs create threats quickly.

Bluh, hope they appear in the December Goblins thing.

From a freelancer's perspective, the simple class templates are going to make writing stat blocks for relatively simple monsters WAY easier! I'm looking forward to using these!

Cool, you got more free time! NOW GET BACK TO MAKING THAT MONKEY GOBLIN RACE OPTIMIZATION GUIDE.

I assume that the Monster Codex will be on the PRD, since it's in the RPG line.

Is that correct? Do we have an estimated time that it'll go up?

As a subscriber, when should I be expecting this to ship?

Class templates for monsters? Excellent addition. Kudos to the design team for that one.

Awesome. I'll be using the crap outta this stuff

Going to have to check this out for certain. I've long toyed with the idea of doing something similar (albeit more campaign specific), and creating "variant" monsters based on geographic locations/tribes/etc.

Plus, these simple templates sound like a great addition! Surprised no one thought of it sooner, but I'm glad they did! (Now if we can just get some for the non-core classes! hint, hint). :)

The idea of class templates sounds awesome and super useful, but that example does not inspire confidence. I'm pretty sure just adding a single level of barbarian produces a way more powerful creature (at the very least, a d12 hit die, rage, and +4 +4 +2 +2 +0 -2 mods to ability scores).

Miniatures fiends: I got caught up in catch-up after returning to the office from New York Comic Con this week. Your regularly scheduled Friday Publisher Preview will return next week.

Monster Codex is shipping now. If you've not yet received your shipping notice, it should arrive in the next day or two (it takes a few days to churn through the entire list).

The Monster Codex will, in fact, be added to the PRD. I'm not exactly sure when, and the person to ask has gone home for the weekend, but the answer is "relatively soon."

The Monster Codex will, in fact, be added to the PRD. I'm not exactly sure when, and the person to ask has gone home for the weekend, but the answer is "relatively soon."

Pretty sure it's on her to-do list. :D

Will we eventually get class templates for ALL the classes?

SM

Monster Codex is shipping now. If you've not yet received your shipping notice, it should arrive in the next day or two (it takes a few days to churn through the entire list).

The Monster Codex will, in fact, be added to the PRD. I'm not exactly sure when, and the person to ask has gone home for the weekend, but the answer is "relatively soon."

Shipping notice? Got the book already, thanks! :-)

This is the first thing from this book I've seen that actually sold it to me. This might be the biggest timesaver for Pathfinder GMs ever.

I'm seriously not convinced by this. This is really not good enough, and it's certainly not balanced.

A single level of barbarian gives a creature:
- +1 CR
- a d12 hit die (6.5+Con hitpoints)
- 4+Int skillpoints, some nice class skills, +1 skill cap
- +1 BAB
- Martial proficiency
- Medium armor proficiency
- +10 ft land speed
- Rage for 4 + Con mod rounds
- +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 adjustments to their ability scores

And if they're a normally non-physical combat creature, they get two levels:
- +1 CR
- 2d12 hit dice (13+2*Con hitpoints)
- 8+2*Int skillpoints, class skills, +2 skill cap
- +2 BAB
- Martial proficiency
- Medium armor Proficiency
- +10 ft land speed
- Rage for 6 + Con mod rounds
- Uncanny Dodge
- A rage power
- +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 adjustments to their ability scores

Whereas this template provides
- +2 CR
- Uncanny Dodge
- DR 1/- (non-stacking if the creature has DR already)
- Rage for 4 + HD + Con mod rounds (overkill for the duration of most fights)
- +4 Str

Or
- +3 CR
- Improved Uncanny Dodge
- DR 3/- (non-stacking if the creature has DR already)
- Greater Rage for 4 + HD + Con mo rounds
- +4 Str

If this trend follows with the other templates in the book, they'll probably also provide paltry benefits compared to the CR boost they apply, not include the proficiencies or skills the class should receive (Perception and Stealth being very important ones if you're boosting CR), not provide the correct ability score adjustments, hit dice, or attack bonuses, and not include a way to quickly generate the extra gear the creature receives from being a classed NPC.

I hope I'm wrong and the barbarian template is an unfortunate outlier, because this is an idea I really like, especially as a way to quickly and easily differentiate NPCs in a group. But if they're all like this, they're going to go un-used.

Except in rare cases, such as using Horrifically Overpower Feats, templates and classes are different. These class templates are not levels in classes, and they are just like the Advanced, Giant, Young, etc. Simple templates. They are meant to be used when you don't have time to give levels to a creature. If you have time to add levels to a creature, then do so and set the Class Templates aside for those sessions where your players go in a different direction than you have prepared.

Just my 2 coppers....

CR for classed monsters never worked properly anyway. Anybody who has ever faced 3.5 Xanesha can confirm that. She was built 100% according to the rules, yet in play she was way above her CR.

The problem is not with Class Templates, it's with Core rules for assigning CR. Or rather, "guidelines" for assigning CR, because they explicitly state that they're just that.

A Barbarian Template monster seems to be in line with CR+2 monsters of the same ilk, from first glance.

A +2 CR creature is supposed to be roughly twice as powerful (or at least, worth twice as many points in encounter design and meant to threaten PCs two levels higher) as the original. A +3 CR creature close to 250% of their original power. Do you really think a creature that gains Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, +4 Str, and Rage qualifies, beyond attaching it to the lowest CR creatures?

Is a Marilith with this template the same threat level as a Pit Fiend?

The caster templates are great, because they give spell levels according to HD.

Which means a Wizard templated Giant will have spells relevant to his CR. Rather than lower level spells strapped to increased melee damage and Str score that won't be used, because caster.

A +2 CR creature is supposed to be roughly twice as powerful (or at least, worth twice as many points in encounter design and meant to threaten PCs two levels higher) as the original. A +3 CR creature close to 250% of their original power. Do you really think a creature that gains Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, +4 Str, and Rage qualifies, beyond attaching it to the lowest CR creatures?

Is a Marilith with this template the same threat level as a Pit Fiend?

Not exactly the best example. CR gets very wonky at high levels. It's an eyeball estimate at best.

A +2 CR creature is supposed to be roughly twice as powerful (or at least, worth twice as many points in encounter design and meant to threaten PCs two levels higher) as the original. A +3 CR creature close to 250% of their original power. Do you really think a creature that gains Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, +4 Str, and Rage qualifies, beyond attaching it to the lowest CR creatures?

Is a Marilith with this template the same threat level as a Pit Fiend?

Neither is a Marilith with the half-celestial template or one with six levels of aristocrat, but they'd still have the same CR. Proper judgment is necessary to really gauge when the CR guidelines apply.

A +2 CR creature is supposed to be roughly twice as powerful (or at least, worth twice as many points in encounter design and meant to threaten PCs two levels higher) as the original. A +3 CR creature close to 250% of their original power. Do you really think a creature that gains Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, +4 Str, and Rage qualifies, beyond attaching it to the lowest CR creatures?

Is a Marilith with this template the same threat level as a Pit Fiend?

If you treat CR guidelines as a religion, fine, slap 18 levels of Expert onto a Troll and go complain that it doesn't hold its ground next to an Astral Deva. You'll have my sympathy. Maybe you'll even get your money back or have somebody fired that way.

"exciting new content for... kobolds..."

I'm sold.

Arrrrgh this still hasn't shipped for me and it looks so cool!

Aratrok does have a point that the +2 CR boost seems a bit high, I'd say. I can't say that applying this template gives a better power boost than say the advanced template. +1 CR seems more in line.

Aratrok does have a point that the +2 CR boost seems a bit high, I'd say. I can't say that applying this template gives a better power boost than say the advanced template. +1 CR seems more in line.

I may not have the book, but I suspect that this is a (most likely futile) way of trying to give all of the class templates the same CR modifier, which means they have to account for some of them granting high level spells and whatnot.

The marilith by base is also infamously under CRed anyways.

Aratrok does have a point that the +2 CR boost seems a bit high, I'd say. I can't say that applying this template gives a better power boost than say the advanced template. +1 CR seems more in line.

Barbarian Troll (raging) vs. Hill Giant

Barbarian Troll (CR 7)
AC 15
hp 75; regeneration 5 (acid or fire), DR 1/-, uncanny dodge
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +5
Melee bite +12 (1d8+9), 2 claws +12 (1d6+9)
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+11)
damage on full attack if everything hits : 53

Hill Giant (CR 7)
AC 21
hp 85
Fort +11, Ref +2, Will +3
Melee greatclub with PA +12/+7 (2d8+16)
damage on full attack if everything hits : 50

So, we have the same damage and 10 more hp for the Hill Giant and better AC but better saves + regen, DR and uncanny dodge for the Troll. Looks fine, and if you actually do slap an appropriate armor on the Troll, looks even better.

Gotbacz, as you pointed out yourself earlier CR is a flimsy thing. Trolls are just generally powerful for their CR. But compare a barbarian hill giant to some CR 9 dragon and your hill giant seems funny.

My point was that I suspect an average case scenario the barbarian class template does not do considerably more than the advanced template, and therefore should probably be CR +1.

Gotbacz, as you pointed out yourself earlier CR is a flimsy thing. Trolls are just generally powerful for their CR. But compare a barbarian hill giant to some CR 9 dragon and your hill giant seems funny.

Not that much. A Barbarian Hill Giant would have exactly the same hp and AC as a Young Red Dragon, and two attacks which would both hit AC 24 more frequently than YRD with its secondary attacks. Sure, there are dragon immunities and breath weapon to consider but the difference is not terrific. I would prolly rate the BarbHillGiant one CR lower than the Dragon, but I would absolutely consider it more dangerous than a Giant Flytrap or a Brachiosaurus. So yeah, CR is a ballpark, but as long as you're within the ballpark, it's fine.

Some class templates will synergize with certain monsters better than others. Barbaric on a marilith is a very poor combination; I'd suggest barbaric on a giant or, say, a linnorm, for much better results.

Rogue template (+4 Dex, evasion, imp. uncanny dodge, 2 talents (one advanced), and +8d6 sneak for +2 CR) or fighter template (+4 Str, weapon training 3, 5 combat feats, and armor training 4 for +2 CR) might work much, much better for a marilith than barbaric would. Especially with some basic complimentary gear.

The full caster templates are +1 to +3 CR; other templates are +1/+2 or +2/+3.

Some of the +3 templates might be overvalued, but mileage will vary.

Lord Snow wrote:

Gotbacz, as you pointed out yourself earlier CR is a flimsy thing. Trolls are just generally powerful for their CR. But compare a barbarian hill giant to some CR 9 dragon and your hill giant seems funny.

Not that much. A Barbarian Hill Giant would have exactly the same hp and AC as a Young Red Dragon, and two attacks which would both hit AC 24 more frequently than YRD with its secondary attacks. Sure, there are dragon immunities and breath weapon to consider but the difference is not terrific. I would prolly rate the BarbHillGiant one CR lower than the Dragon, but I would absolutely consider it more dangerous than a Giant Flytrap or a Brachiosaurus. So yeah, CR is a ballpark, but as long as you're within the ballpark, it's fine.

I think you keep sidestepping my main point, which is that the barbarian class template is roughly equal to the advanced class template in power and therefore should give the same CR boost.

As an aside, I would consider the dragon more dangerous because if it's smart enough to take to the air and swoop down to use it's breath weapon once per 1d4 rounds the hill giant would seem a bit puny with his thrown rocks. I made that comparison to show that comparing different monsters is not the correct way of evaluating the gain from a template. Rather, you should compare the templated monster either to the original version to to the same monster with a different template that you already know how to evaluate. I feel like I played with advanced enough to know that +1 CR is about right for it, so that's the comparison I used.