GM chiming in: The winter witches won't come to Walsby until Nadya finishes packing, because the GM said so. There's no solution for the blindness until next book.
And there's no story reason to give you a break once you're out of town. Whereas, moving house and having to pack is a good story reason for a break.
Einar, you've played at 8 before. Remember no response from deepmar? And the stinking cloud trap? Hastur thought you had a lot of gas, and went far away until you finished farting.
GM chiming in: The winter witches won't come to Walsby until Nadya finishes packing, because the GM said so. There's no solution for the blindness until next book.
Einar, you've played at 8 before. Remember no response from deepmar? And the stinking cloud trap? Hastur thought you had a lot of gas, and went far away until you finished farting.
yeah, but that was a character I built at five and bumped to eight, he hadn't seen/experienced everything that a "played" character would have, and my point is that I'm not as knowledgeable as 'Mister Whiskers' not that I would have changed the decision anyway, I hate leaving stuff behind.
Your choice. I'm all for player choice and consequences.
BTW - had you used Mierul as trapbait, I would have had her eat the trap for you, then rise as vengeful undead. I'll do that for any NPC you should use to spring traps. Just so we're clear on this.
If you're fine having an additional encounter instead of a trap, I'll take it as the price paid. But don't expect THAT encounter to be easy.
Your choice. I'm all for player choice and consequences.
BTW - had you used Mierul as trapbait, I would have had her eat the trap for you, then rise as venegful undead. I'll do that for any NPC you should use to spring traps. Just so we're clear on this.
If you're fine having an additional encounter instead of a trap, I'll take it as the price paid. But don't expect THAT encounter to be easy.
Would the trap have killed her?
Oh, and what kind of treasure would the undead have? weapons, armor, goggles of Minute Seeing?
It would, because GM would fiat. Even without, if you just smelling salted her, sent her there, since she's at -2 or so, the con lost might just kill her outright.
There would be no treasure. And I would probably be a d1ck in deciding what undead to throw at you. It would be APL +2/+3 ish, and the general idea is that it would be more trouble then its worth.
The saving grace is that the undead wouldn't pursue you, just stay around haunting the vault, so to speak, since its the site of her death.
There would be no treasure. And I would probably be a d1ck in deciding what undead to throw at you. It would be APL +2/+3 ish, and the general idea is that it would be more trouble then ita worth.
you mean like eating - 6 to constitution for a rager...
The saving grace is that the undead wouldn't pursue you, just stay around haunting the vault, so to speak, since its the site of her death.
that would be awesome, we would leave and the winter witches would have to kill her...
water under the bridge now, I'm just hoping that the spell casters are enjoy all the cool stuff. At least now someone other than Einar will have something of value...
Too bad the captain lady didn't leave her sword for Ziva...
Hestrig's sword was just a MW Greatsword ahahaha.
From this seal shall arise the doom of men, who, in their arrogance, sought to wield our fire as their own. Blindly they build their kingdoms upon stolen knowledge and conceit. Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control.
Mmmph. You get the drift. Mr Whiskers, I'm waiting to hear your input with regard to how you want to handle identification. I could make you take 10 on everything, but that would be expressly against your wishes.
I was waiting for someone to tell Mr. Whiskers (in character) that it was over. I see that has been taken care of now.
I'll type something up, in character. The stuff from the chest will be 'pack it, I will identify it tomorrow'.
Muriel, are we going to try and reform her? Allow her to leave with her life if she tells us what is cursed? I'll try to put up something in character there as well.
May be a little bit before I get my post up, sorry. Got a game starting.
Unfortunately, she does NOT know which item is cursed. Put it this way. If I invite you to my house, tell you not to open that door, would you open the door, or ask me why you shouldn't open it? But feel free to ask. All she'll say is - I don't know.
we could let her use each item, that's not the same as having her open a trapped door...
Sure. Something funny will happen :)
Right, do not allow Muriel and Einar in the same space. Got it!
Right, do not allow Muriel and Einar in the same space. Got it!
?????
Einar has done nothing but play nice,
What's talked about in the discussion thread stays in the discussion thread :)
Sorry, the comment was Meant more as a OOC joke.
I thought it might be, but it was fun poking at it ;)
Re: Mierul, Crummock would not have been a fan of using her as trap bait.
Killing her, sure, but she hadn't actually done anything that Crummock was aware of that would justify 'cruel and unusual punishment'.
That said, after having read the journal, Crummock *would* be concerned by the fact that she is apparently a direct agent of the usurper-Queen...
-----
So, as alluded to in the Gameplay thread, I have updated the 'Loot' sheet.
Please note if there is anything on there that you want to keep, otherwise I will simply liquidate everything.
Of course, we still have several magical items that we need to identify...
O.k I'll have a game play post up soon.
@ Mr. Whiskers yes, I would have said something IC when I got back from the wedding (ie: now), but I made an incorrect assumption that it would be self evident that she would be upset, due to the blindness affecting her close friend. Rest assured that in my upcoming gameplay post I'll state this, so thats its not unclear.
RE Murderhobo'ing
Right now, Ziva's probably not going to show much mercy again, its not really helped her anything (and Mierul doesn't appear to be very helpful but maybe thats because we haven't had time for a proper engagement yet), and not murder hoboing puts us behind in WBL. If you don't want to modify the AP as written and allow us to pick up extra gear / loot to negate WBL loss - then we should (from an ooc perspective of course), be murdering everything least we get screwed later on against an encounter as written that expects us to have x amount of wealth and xp. If the GM wants to make adjustments, then not murder hoboing becomes more valuable, since you can get trade-offs such as favorable interactions that turn out being more useful than some extra loot.
Seeing as (correct me if I'm wrong though), Mort was running the AP largely as written murder hoboing is unfortunately the option with the best chance of success - since theres nothing to reduce the negatives of "doing the right thing" (which probably just gets us killed).
Bigger point though GM
Firstly, Dispel Magic should be able to remove her blindness on Vernai. U
If this doesn't though...
..Then there needs to be an incentive now for Ziva to continue with the party. With no upcoming knowledge of the cure, it would make total sense for her to pop through the winter portal before it closed - go travel for a cure, and come back (if time vs distance is an issue she just might not come back at all). If we want Ziva to stick with the party, there needs to be a reason for her to "go forward", considering shes got a blind companion, that is not only vulnerable but a possible hindrance, and it would probably be silly for her to push ahead blindly (err, no pun intended), into a more dangerous area with someone she cared about so vulnerable.
To be honest, I didn't know that dispel magic worked against blindness/deafness. Just did some reading, found out, that it did. Wasn't intending to lie or whatsoever, I honestly did not know. Its one of those rule interactions that usually don't pop up. You'll need to make the caster level check of course and everything.
You've never talked to Mierul yet to be honest. XP doesn't matter, since you're leveling by plot points. Favourable interactions - I don't know. I won't let you be having more then 1 NPC tailing you(and the way it looks it's probably going to be Nadya). Its also more work for me - the module does not state you'll ever get favourable interactions - though I've given you some useful stuff here and there for not murderhoboing.
You can't return to Heldren also. Remember there's a geas on all of you, that should I choose to I can start enforcing. But most of the time I just close a blind eye.
I've already told you OOC that within the first 2 planned encounters, there should be a solution in sight. That should already be fine enough.
Oh god, I didn't mean anything to suggest you knew about Dispel Magic, to be honest I only thought of it on the flight back, because it stuck me as odd the AP didn't have a solution to the condition.
I didn't realise there is a geas on us though, I must have missed that.
And yeah, OOC I'm fully aware that there's something. It would be nice though if I had something IC to work with so I can justify it through character actions and it doesn't come across as weird.
Yes, you have been geased. Dally around too much, I'll start imposing those penalties. I can, I just rather not.
Sometimes APs/mod/PFS scenarios can be rather nasty, giving you things that there aren't solutions for. Like Deeper Darkness potentially at level 1. Or something that can instantly kill any level 1 character if it hits. On an evergreen. Or a shadow with no magic weapon in sight, at level 1, if you go the wrong way. No one said life was fair...
Well, as long as the Witch was Level 8 or less (probably a safe bet?), I think I just removed Vernai's Blindness, so we don't have to worry about splitting the party :-)
Now, as I previously mentioned, please look at the Loot list, to see if there is anything that you want to keep.
Thanks in advance :-)
I've more or less finished the prep for book 2, except for some loose ends that I need to tie up.
Also - Ziva, I'm waiting for you to tie up loose ends with Mierul - then I can just wrap up the entire book.
Now, as I previously mentioned, please look at the Loot list, to see if there is anything that you want to keep.Thanks in advance :-)
It's always tempting to keep one of each of the weapons so we can look like the characters on the covers with forty two different weapons showing. However, I will resist the urge and put them all back and stick with what I have.
What do we want to do now with Mierul?
The idea was to redeem her or you know, actually have her be useful in saving ie information or whatever. Like, in light of the GMs ruling is it even worth the bother since realistically if she's not with us then she has zero opportunities to reform.
It depends on how judgmental you'd want to be about things. I'm not the kind of person who will punish PCs by having recurring NPCs(unless the stat block says that they'll recurr - besides look at those recurring NPCs, they were those that got away in combat). She serves Queen Elvana for the Moolah. Think about it this way, if you want to make it rich in icy Irrisen, wouldn't you serve under the most powerful person so you get paid + other benefits?
Its not really more different from adventurers hiring out to do stuff for people.
Realistically speaking, the only people who would know about the vaults would be Radosek(already dead), and Nazhema. Radosek wouldn't have talked no matter what you did to him, anyway.
So from your post we can understand that Mierul has 0 chance at allying with us truly, or even being friendly and therefore we should kill her immediately? Just going off this since she clearly serves Elvana for the $$$ which we don't have staggering amounts of ---ergo thers no point keeping her alive.
I think we probably need a clear gameplan forward. I'm probably more in favor of just murder hoboing everything from this point forward than I was before - we don't lose out on loot (which could save party member lives), and we don't really miss out on any redemption opportunities, since such NPC's won't follow us around / help out / be loyal. As far as I can tell, there isnt much point in keeping anyone alive, especially when there is a risk they could be a recurring NPC (and thats technically what Mierul is). So, while technically its slightly causing issues with Ziva's morality, I no longer see a compelling reason not to murder anything in our path.
Do you only do things for mechanical benefits then? You already have Mierul's gear on you. If you let Mierul go, you won't see her again. Since I can tell you the mod has nothing saying she will become a recurring NPC.
If you wanted me to add loot for skipped encounters, you could just ask, since I did ask the party to vote, instead of saying I'll murderhobo because I want lewts. It'd have made 3 people, so that's a majority there, and I'd comply.
I can't really get Mierul to follow you, since as I said, I don't want it to be an NPC show. Or if you want, depending on your RP, I can have her follow you, but do nothing in combat.
If you asked me to ask Mierul to tell you about Queen Elvana, I can't say anything, because that is many books in advance, and I haven't even bought the book yet, so the GM knows nothing.
Re: Dispel Magic / Blindness
Sorry, I also missed that Dispel Magic would end the Blindness/Deafness spell. I was thinking that Blindness was duration Instantaneous. Should have checked.
Re: IC / OOC
I've messed up with the IC/OOC and will probably do so again at some point. Earlier in the game, I had taken an idea from discussion and credited it to Einar. Later I found out although Robert (Einar's player) suggested it, his character probably would not have suggested it but would have found it acceptable. My bad.
In general, our characters should only react to stuff that happens in the gameplay thread. As he pointed out recently, What's talked about in the discussion thread stays in the discussion thread.
Re: Murderhoboing
Sorry, it just isn't any fun for me. If all the group wants to do is murder their way through the AP, I'm in the wrong group.
Re: Loot wanted
As a group, I think we should keep all Acid, Alchemist's Fire, potions/wands/scrolls of Cure spells, and at least some of the Thunderstones.
The oil of Mask Dweomer may be very useful when we reach Whitethrone if there are items we may want to hide. I think this should be a group decision.
Einar should take the Ice Floe Elixir for the next time someone uses Chill Metal on his armor.
If we want to make any of the DC 25 Alchemical Items, Mr. Whiskers could use the Golden Maple Leaves to do it. This would make the most sense for the Tanglefoot bags or Thunderstones. If we don't want to do it, sell them.
Mr. Whiskers would like the following:
At least some of the books from the library
Potion of Undetectable Alignment
All arcane scrolls except Animate Objects (too high level and wrong spell list) and Youthful Appearance (too special purpose).
Ring of Protection +1
I expect someone else will actually get the Ring of Protection since there are a lot of people that would make better use of it.
ok, a couple of loose statements about the general comments.
Magic Items: at least there are three wondrous items for you folks, does anyone think we need to keep the knife? Einar won't need it, his claws are magical now. Als keeping the 'ice floe elixir' is a genius idea and I like keeping the consumables that Mister Whiskers recommended.
Discussion thread:Yeah, for me there is a big difference between what is said in discussion thread and what is said in game. Now I assumed that Ziva would be upset when Vernai was blinded, that just makes sense. I probably talk/joke more about what Einar may do, or what options we have in discussion. That's just me entertaining myself.
Murder Hobos: The conversation about murder-hoboing has been fascinating, I like the fact that Mort is willing to supplement lost goods a little. here is my point of view,
I see my characters as two or three dimensional. Two dimensional characters are a collection of archetypes, tropes and favorite characters from fiction combined together with rules and character classes in a way that's fun to play. Three-dimensional characters are those same things plus a little of their own soul. All of my characters start two-dimensional, some make it to three dimensional when they take on a life of their own. My favorite characters to play have done this. Some times this is because of their backstory, sometimes it's because of playing them and they develop a personality. Because of the pressure put on Einar to explain himself He has very much become a three dimensional character for me.
I really look forward to playing a rough, self-centered, arrogant, violent, mercenary who, because of the people he travels with, needs to watch how he does things; so as not to chase them away. So I will be a little sad if we just murder-hobo everything. I like the interaction between characters, I like the inner turmoil with Einar as to what is too much violence.
I like the fact that so far we have kept inner continuity with characters. Crummock has shown a caring disposition but quick justice for those who cross his idea of acceptable behavior. Even reminding 'Einar' what would happen if his behavior crossed lines (here in discussion). Mister Whiskers, has maintained a belief in the potential good in everyone, and a willingness to give people opportunity to change. Ziva has shown a deep commitment to her friends and companions and an unwillingness to uselessly waste life.
I just hope we can continue playing the characters without giving up too much loot ;)
There are two separate issues RE murder hoboing.
1) is always going to be the issue of loot or gear. Yes, we have Mierul's gear, but we missed out on Hestrig and (probably) Jairess. I don't regret for a second not murdering him (Crummock was excellent with Jairess), but the more we find alternative ways to not murder something, the weaker we end up being. Even the fight against Radosek could have easily been more difficult had my duration expired on my buff spells (thankfully, they hadn't but down the line we might not be so lucky). I think everyone here, morally speaking, wants alternative ways to murdering through an AP. I just don't want there being an issue if we arrive against the final boss, under WBL and low on resources (having actively avoided murder hoboing) and then fail - then we screw over basically a large part of the world due to our kindness. That said, if loot is being replaced or added, then I have less of an issue with finding alternative ways to resolve conflict.
2) There has to be a positive alignment change for not murder hoboing someone. Jairess and Hestrig are special cases, since both of them gave me a bit of a neutral kinda vibe, so I feel ok about leaving them behind to do their own thing. Mierul on the other hand, is apparently pretty evil, and cutting her loose, is unlikely to really affect her alignment positively. We might not see her again but thats not the point - its on us if we cut her loose and she returns to her evil ways - hence a need to push for redemption. If you don't want it becoming an NPC show thats 100% fine - it clogs things up, it adds difficulty in encounter balance - etc etc. I can understand, get behind and support this. That said, we cannot leave Mierul to her own devices until she can prove that she has reformed, which means we need to see evidence that she is actively seeking out good deeds, wanting to change etc etc. I don't want to be the cop that catches a serial killer and promptly released him a couple of hours later hoping that hes going to suddenly have a change of heart.
tl;dr I don't really want to murder hobo - I just want to feel the value of taking the less violent option even if its just internal happiness at making someone a better person.
from a philosophical view not a gear gained/game mechanics view:
I thought whether to murder hobo or not was more about our characters than about the NPC. by that I mean a 'good' character wouldn't outright kill because it isn't the 'good' thing to do. Another way to put it is that you don't kill because of what killing does to you, ie. what you become; not what it does or doesn't do to the other person.
Expecting someone to 'repent' strikes me as a very Lawful expectation. I would think that telling her that you saved her giving her another chance, hoping she would make better choices the next time, would be enough. Now odds are she is going to think your a starry eyed do-gooder that would make an easy mark and the next time we will have to kill her and Einar will get to tell you 'I told you so'
We can bring her along, but that's a handful of trouble that would not be fun. If you really want her gone and don't want to free her, Einar could kill her, or you could let him drag her to the next town and sell her. But I don't think Mister Whiskers would agree to either idea, and I don't think Crummock would approve of selling her.
Re: Murderhobo.
At the end of this post, Mort asked about how to do loot.
Anyway about whether people want me to insert loots for talked over encounters:
Crummock: No
Mr Whiskers: Yes
Einar said yes in the very next post.
@Ziva It seems like your answer is do whatever allows us to stay at about WBL guidelines. If so, say yes.
Re: Muriel
How about if Crummock and Mr. Whiskers talk with her? Mr. Whiskers is the most in favor of giving someone a second chance. As has been pointed out, Crummock can be very decisive and also is less likely to be fooled.
Let them talk with her, and then decide.
Sounds like a good idea. No problems here sending her off into the sunset - just don't want her doing more evil after sparing her life.
Jairess didn't really have much on her worth taking...
Potion of fly, scroll of returning weapon , leather armor, light wooden shield, dagger, mwk shortspear, teleporter key, wooden holy symbol of Gozreh, silver necklace with star-shaped ice diamond pendant (worth 500 gp), 84 gp
Hestrig:
elixir of fire breath, potions of cure moderate wounds (2), scroll of magic weapon; dagger, mwk greatsword, mwk throwing axe, cloak of resistance +1,an elixir of truth, three potions of feather fall, a pair of silver bracers traced with figures of dragons worth 250 gp, a jeweled scepter worth 175 gp, an agate worth 50 gp, and three blue quartz crystals worth 100 gp each, as well as 256 gp, 473 sp, and 894 cp
Again Radosek does not have a stone familiar in the book, but adding one in makes it convenient for him to use his familiar as a disposable tool, should he make it away from the party to become a recurring villian...didn't happen, but a GM can always hope ;)
And actually not murderhoboing helps save resources, since NPCs don't get go inflict nasty things on you like blinded...whack the daylights out of you(so you burn CLW charges), or force you to burn up resources (like glitterdust, for dealing with pesky invisible summoners). Worst case, you might even avoid dying if the creature in question is very powerful.
Err I don't get that post GM.
We still burnt CLW so I could heal after my arena fight as an alternative to outright gang murdering her. We still lost resources.
I wouldn't mention the bbeg of this book either - that invisible creature opened up without warning on both occasions and fled instead of negotiating - clear evidence he is trying to kill you (remember, he almost killed Ziva last time and now we should be negotiating with him?
That blindness attavk triggered after Vernai got close to him to go for a non damaging grapple - instead of aiming anyone else dealing lethal damage. Wouldn't this be a better example as to why outright damage is better, since you know, everyone else dealing damage suffered no ill effects?
Like, I can agree with your argument in principal (it's a good one) but using the last fight we had as an example of why murdering is bad - is a poor example and boarderline offensive.
Also potion of fly is always worth having ;)
Tactics say you cast blindness/deafness on people moving to attack him. And earlier, everyone was busy flushing ice elementals out of the tower, so the first person to attack him, technically was Vernai.
Your arena fight was unnecessary, honestly. But hell, if players want to do it, I say go for it! Hestrig ain't taking THAT insult lying down, I hinted you could wager on the outcome(which would have gotten you some loot).
I was talking more in terms of future possible events. You don't think Radosek is going to be the only winter witch you're fighting, right?
Also - with the money from liquidating the stone familiar, you could probably buy a potion of fly the next time you see Shui. Or a cloak of resistance +1, if that's what you want. Or even both.
Anyway, please tie up that Mierul sized loose end, thanks.
Tactics say you cast blindness/deafness on people moving to attack him. And earlier, everyone was busy flushing ice elementals out of the tower, so the first person to attack him, technically was Vernai.
hey Einars first attack was against Radosek, Einar stepped into the room, enlarged, and swung at him with a hammer. The discussion ensued to how far Einar could reach and you made the attack against an elemental, so it should have been Einar who got the 'blindness'... then he could have tried to disable the curse spell.... wait a minute, let me rethink that... ;)
It was an AOO, when he was trying to get out of the enlarged reach actually. Not so much of a direct attack if my memory doesn't serve me wrong.
no the first one where he rolled 14 was a direct attack at the 'flying guy' and you made it at the elemental, then you had him roll the AOO
Ok I screwed up. Ooops! I thought it was on the elemental.
*blushes*
Oh well.
Okay, so:
Mr Whiskers:
1) Group to keep:
Acid Flasks
Alchemist's Fire
Potions/wands/scrolls of Cure spells (I assumed this was a given!)
Thunderstones
Oil of Mask Dweomer
Einar:
Ice Floe Elixir for the next time someone uses Chill Metal on his armor.
- Wouldn't it be better to sell it, and buy several potions of Resist Energy(Cold)?
Mr Whiskers:
At least some of the books from the library
Potion of Undetectable Alignment
All arcane scrolls except Animate Objects (too high level and wrong spell list) and Youthful Appearance (too special purpose).
Ring of Protection +1
-----------
So, at present, I am assuming that everything else (including the Cloak of Resistance +1, and the Amulet of Natural Armor +1) is not wanted?
In terms of Group purchases:
Scrolls/Potions of Resist Energy(Cold) x4
Scroll of Remove Blindness/Deafness x2
Scroll of Remove Curse x2
-----------
We should also do our best to identify the remaining items.
Once we have a place to buy Resist Energy (Cold) it may be the right thing to do. Right now, I don't think we have that option.
One counter argument would be the special ability to meld into ice. I expect there will be a lot of icy terrain in this campaign. Still, I wouldn't object to the trade if we can get the Resist Energy potions.
I'll take the cloak, makes sense to have one. Unsure about the amulet of natural armour though since I'll be relying more and more on Barkskin and iirc it don't stack.
Regarding the arena fight GM. That was my fault really. At the time we were considering killing her since she was turning a blind eye toward evil. So I provoked her (since I didn't think walking up and stabbing her was good) into a rash challenge. My bad if she would have let us through without a fight though.
I do think it was unfair expecting us to wager though. On the one hand the party can promptly try and murder her, with five on one, and have a 100% chance at getting her loot, is unequal to a one on one (technically 2v1) non lethal fight, where we have a 50/50 shot at getting some of her items vs a 50/50 shot of actually losing items (if we lost the wager) and getting wrecked for low WBL. Like, it's better and easier just to kill her and save resources and loot x_x
Barkskin does not stack with an amulet of natural armor.
Right now, the duration of Barkskin will be a little short, whereas the amulet is always on. Soon, it pays to get pearls/runestones or lesser extend metamagic rods.
@Crummock Start up the scene with Muriel whenever you are ready. I hate posting back to back. :)
After that and some funeral pyres for the defeated we should be able to skip to the next day.
Or not provoke her and butter her up like a proper dragon ;) She basically told you that you could go anywhere you wanted, just don't take her stuff.
Again, your GM watches too much Disney...
I wasn't expecting Hestrig to actually land on you with barskin boosting your ac to 19? Enlarged, she only has 15 ac, less to hit then you do...yep, I knew how it was going to end. But I also didn't want any accidents, esp on low hp. Because a crit after one side has been hit would end in someone dying outright.
And a horrified Hatch.
But I also thought it was a funny thing to do, and perfectly justified, since she isn't what anyone would call as nice, anyway.
Yeah... about that... Crummock, especially after learning what is in the witch's diary, really doesn't see the point in trying to 'covert' Muriel. After all, she is loyal to the current Queen, and we certainly cannot afford to outbid the Queen of an entire nation.
I also don't think she would be favourably inclined towards Crummock, considering he beat her into unconsciousness.
I realise that I am the 'Diplomat', but I don't see this ending well if Crummock gets involved.
------------------
Re: Loot, what I am seeing so far is:
Mr Whiskers - Assorted scrolls, Ring of Protection +1
Ziva - Cloak of Resistance +1
I'll liquidate everything else.
Mr Whiskers? Do you think you could fire-up some Identify spells on the remaining unidentified items?
Just got sick. Taking tomorrow off, no idea what it'll have on my post rate.
Just got sick. Taking tomorrow off, no idea what it'll have on my post rate.
yuck, hope your feeling better!