If Ninja was going to be a full PF2 class, what would be its core, unique mechanic?

[Unicore]

So I know there are a lot of potential debates about whether PF2 would benefit from having a full class for the old PF1 ninja, but I think a better starting place for figuring out how such a class would benefit the game is by really trying to dial in what unique mechanic the class would have, and then it would be much easier for people to move past debating whether the class is just a rogue archetype or not?

I think an issue with the unique mechanic thing is that sneak attack is a very powerful, heavy lifting combat mechanic that is the rogue’s thing. If the Ninja has that, it is a rogue. Having a unique class that does something like have sneak attack but trade skill progression for spell casting is archetype territory with a very dialed down version of both.

There are some ways I could see the shadow dancer as having some start of a ninja-like class in it (moving away from performance) but that is a high level archetype and I still don’t see a unique mechanic that would make the class shine.

[Ryangwy]

You know, after seeing so many attempts at trying to figure out how to add magic powers to the rogue without busting the class budget (very funny in 3.x when the rogue wasn't actually busting any class budget, but I digress), I do have to ask - do ninjas need sneak attack? Well, of course, it would be nice if they got it and the magic tricks the ninja should get does includes stuff that grants flat footed... but the same is true of the swashbuckler and they don't get sneak attack.

[RPG-Geek]

Would you mind Samurai talk moving here as well, or should I start a new thread?

[RPG-Geek]

What if the Ninja's thing was having very specific setups needed to pull off special high-damage moves? Like finishers and sneak attacks had a child.

You might have a move that works when you're between 10 and 30 ft. from an off-guard foe. A move that works on a prone foe. A move that works if the enemy didn't move last round, or was forced to move last round.

The loop would be planning ahead to chain one special move into the next, and using mobility and one-action tricks to try to ensure that happens as often as possible?

[Unicore]

RPG-Geek wrote:

Would you mind Samurai talk moving here as well, or should I start a new thread?

It would probably be best to start a new one, just so people aren’t talking past each other.

[moosher12]

In regards to an attack booster, my first thought would be that a ninja probably does not need a sneak attack. A rogue is reactionary and opportunistic, a ninja on the other hand probably would lead toward an assassination of a high value target, which would take the form of an ambush, or if we wanted to get shounen with things, a duel. As such, I'd probably sooner inspire from the Assassin's Mark for Death, the Operative's Aim, and the Ranger's Hunt Prey abilities, but more particularly, the 1E Slayer's Studied Target ability, to let the ninja focus on a single target, rather than being able to react to every off-guard opportunity.

As for spellcasting, a ninja would probably be a squishy martial like a rogue would be. It is an option to give it focus spells, but I think a ninja wants to do too much for focus spells to satisfy. On the other hand, a ninja does not need so many spells that it needs a full 3-slot allotment. And lastly, not everyone wants to be a ninja that casts spells, so while a magi's spell slot is an option, I would not recommend it for a ninja. I'd suggest following after both the Ranger and the Bloodrager Barbarian, where you can choose to opt into magic with feat choice. As such, I'd propose granting it the ability to choose a Basic Ninjutsu feat at level 1, which grants 2 cantrips and basic spellcasting benefits, an Expert Ninjutsu feat at level 12, which grants expert spellcasting benefits, and a master ninjutsu feat at level 18, which grants master spellcasting benefits. The spellslot allocation of archetype spellcasting will give a ninja a lot of ammunition to play with various kinds of magic within an encounter, but not so much that they can just use ninjutsu willy nilly. Arcane I think is probably one of the better choices for an arcane school, as it gives a wide variety of both stealth and flashy abilities, though it does leave out healing. Occultism is an option that enables healing, but it lacks the flashiness that a Naruto fantasy might invoke. This would not be an archetype or a class archetype though, these feats would just be baked into the class as an option.

Part of me thinks that spontaneous casting would get a good amount of flexibility, but prepared casting with an internal learned spell list like the upcoming Necromancer has a certain appeal as well.

I'd think a ninja would prioritize Dexterity and Wisdom for being nimble, as well as for tracking. So I'd suggest making their spellcasting attribute Wisdom.

[RPG-Geek]

moosher12 wrote:

In regards to an attack booster, my first thought would be that a ninja probably does not need a sneak attack. A rogue is reactionary and opportunistic, a ninja on the other hand probably would lead toward an assassination of a high value target, which would take the form of an ambush, or if we wanted to get shounen with things, a duel. As such, I'd probably sooner inspire from the Assassin's Mark for Death, the Operative's Aim, and the Ranger's Hunt Prey abilities, but more particularly, the 1E Slayer's Studied Target ability, to let the ninja focus on a single target, rather than being able to react to every off-guard opportunity.

As for spellcasting, a ninja would probably be a squishy martial like a rogue would be. It is an option to give it focus spells, but I think a ninja wants to do too much for focus spells to satisfy. On the other hand, a ninja does not need so many spells that it needs a full 3-slot allotment. And lastly, not everyone wants to be a ninja that casts spells, so while a magi's spell slot is an option, I would not recommend it for a ninja. I'd suggest following after both the Ranger and the Bloodrager Barbarian, where you can choose to opt into magic with feat choice. As such, I'd propose granting it the ability to choose a Basic Ninjutsu feat at level 1, which grants 2 cantrips and basic spellcasting benefits, an Expert Ninjutsu feat at level 12, which grants expert spellcasting benefits, and a master ninjutsu feat at level 18, which grants master spellcasting benefits. The spellslot allocation of archetype spellcasting will give a ninja a lot of ammunition to play with various kinds of magic within an encounter, but not so much that they can just use ninjutsu willy nilly. Arcane I think is probably one of the better choices for an arcane school, as it gives a wide variety of both stealth and flashy abilities, though it does leave out healing. Occultism is an option that enables healing, but it lacks the flashiness that a Naruto fantasy might invoke. This would not be an archetype...

Is a top-down anime-inspired design the best way to ensure this class finds its audience? Do we want to pigeonhole the Ninja as the weeb class?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just think it might make more sense to find their one unique thing and build from that and then dress it like a Ninja once the core works.

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like a potential Ninja has the same issue as the Monk where the question of "how much magic should my character be using outside of equipment, consumables, etc." should be able to be answered by "none whatsoever." Like the class has to allow for that.

I'm genuinely not sure how you would balance a class where some choices involve some spellcasting and other choices involve absolutely no spellcasting, except through focus spells like the Monk, Champion, and Ranger get.

[moosher12]

RPG-Geek wrote:

Is a top-down anime-inspired design the best way to ensure this class finds its audience? Do we want to pigeonhole the Ninja as the weeb class?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just think it might make more sense to find their one unique thing and build from that and then dress it like a Ninja once the core works.

You are right, we want something more general, and a hook. That is the question. Lets take a look at its contenders

-First is the Rogue. The Rogue is a good thief, it is often your connection to the black market. The rogue is a face, a dilettante, a fence, a rake. The rogue is an opportunist, and its big thing is of course, sneak attack. It works on anyone who is off-guard.
-Second is the ranger. The ranger is our closest to a bounty hunter. The ranger can target a single person and focus on them. They are a good tracker too, but the base ranger needs to see the prey first before they can get bonuses on tracking, unless they are a Bounty Hunter, too. But while a ranger can act as a bounty hunter, they have a lot more support toward being a monster hunter in flavor.
-Third is the Operative, particularly the Striker Operative, which focuses on using light weapons, unarmed attacks, and ranged weapons to deal with a single target that you can designate your aim at to do a small amount of additional precision damage. Though this is a Starfinder class, and is less likely to be allowed in Pathfinder space.

I'd say that if there is one thing this class can do, it's that it can trade off things the others don't need. From the rogue, it'd want the connection to the criminal underworld, the use of underhanded tactics like poisoncraft, but it does not need to be a dilettante, it does not need all of the rogue's class feats and trainings, nor does it need to be a face. So it does not need the generalized reaction of a sneak attack, nor the defense against being ambushed that a rogue has with its Deny Advantage ability. From the ranger, it would want an ability to mark a target, preferably from the beginning of a mission, and have benefits to tracking the target down, lying to the target, and general combat advantages against the target.

My suggestion from the other thread is to call it a slayer, and to try to combine the old slayer and ninja into one class, like how the Animist combined the Medium and the Shaman, and the Summoner combined the Spiritualist and the Summoner.

The slayer existed as a class whose focus was to essentially be an assassin. So it can have a "Mark Bounty" or some other sort of single action mark, that gives you a bonus to checks that get you closer to the target (Deception, Perception, Society, Survival, etc). If an Operator can ignore cover, and a ranger can get a bonus to AC against the target being defensive, then perhaps a slayer can be more offensive, and get a +1 bonus to attack and spell attack rolls against the target, like the 1E one did? We'll say it won't do precision, but it'll just have that easier time getting hits in due to their offensive focus. Essentially, what if it's a trained martial that's halfway to an expert martial against one designated target?

[RPG-Geek]

moosher12 wrote:

RPG-Geek wrote:

Is a top-down anime-inspired design the best way to ensure this class finds its audience? Do we want to pigeonhole the Ninja as the weeb class?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just think it might make more sense to find their one unique thing and build from that and then dress it like a Ninja once the core works.

You are right, we want something more general, and a hook. That is the question. Lets take a look at its contenders

-First is the Rogue. The Rogue is a good thief, it is often your connection to the black market. The rogue is a face, a dilettante, a fence, a rake. The rogue is an opportunist, and its big thing is of course, sneak attack. It works on anyone who is off-guard.
-Second is the ranger. The ranger is our closest to a bounty hunter. The ranger can target a single person and focus on them. They are a good tracker too, but the base ranger needs to see the prey first before they can get bonuses on tracking, unless they are a Bounty Hunter, too. But while a ranger can act as a bounty hunter, they have a lot more support toward being a monster hunter in flavor.
-Third is the Operative, particularly the Striker Operative, which focuses on using light weapons, unarmed attacks, and ranged weapons to deal with a single target that you can designate your aim at to do a small amount of additional precision damage. Though this is a Starfinder class, and is less likely to be allowed in Pathfinder space.

I'd say that if there is one thing this class can do, it's that it can trade off things the others don't need. From the rogue, it'd want the connection to the criminal underworld, the use of underhanded tactics like poisoncraft, but it does not need to be a dilettante, it does not need all of the rogue's class feats and trainings, nor does it need to be a face. So it does not need the generalized reaction of a sneak attack, nor the defense against being ambushed that a rogue has with its Deny Advantage ability. From the ranger, it would want an ability to mark a...

What did you think of my positioning-based hybrid of sneak attack and finishing blow as the basis for a mobile, flashy attacker that relies on set-up to dispatch foes they can't stand toe to toe with? I'd be aiming for a mechanic that goes from, "You idiot, I placed that trap there 12 seconds ago knowing you'd step on it. Now die!" to "Phew, if he'd stepped 5 feet to the side I'd be dead right now!" in the same package.

[moosher12]

RPG-Geek wrote:

What did you think of my positioning-based hybrid of sneak attack and finishing blow as the basis for a mobile, flashy attacker that relies on set-up to dispatch foes they can't stand toe to toe with? I'd be aiming for a mechanic that goes from, "You idiot, I placed that trap there 12 seconds ago knowing you'd step on it. Now die!" to "Phew, if he'd stepped 5 feet to the side I'd be dead right now!" in the same package.

I'd be wary of too many conditionals, as it would take up a lot of page space to cover a broad range of conditions, and you'd likely run into a lot of situations where enemies just don't play along. It's essentially the Aikido problem.

But the idea itself is not bad from a flavor point, and I think you're onto something. Outsmarting prey and leading them into a trap. I'd probably suggest letting the Slayer modify the Feint action to do things other than make an opponent off guard. Say if you succeeded at feinting, you'd instead make them move 5 feet into a conveniently placed misc trap that does your choice of piercing or slashing damage, where higher tiers might instead make the trap do acid, fire, or other elemental damages. It gives you the idea of giving the appearance of a set-up, while not actually needing to plan very far ahead.

[Bluemagetim]

We can make a solid ninja already with the existing game options but it wouldn't come on line at level 1, at least the character would need some levels in them to get the skill feats for movement and a spellcasting dedication for magic. If one were to be its own class and not a higher level archtype (which might be another way to go) then there are going to be a lot of what makes a ninja a ninja slowly given as you level.
Much of the class concept are already skill feats. Can a ninja character be a ninja if they can't do these things? And if no then would they be included in the class budget and gained at certain levels? maybe including class features that interact with jumping climbing and maybe even crawling in some way.
Skill feats like:
Quick Jump
Wall Jump
Rolling Landing
Quick Climb
Water Sprint

Conceptually I think sneak attack is not really their thing, at least not in every way a rogue does it. For a ninja stealth feels like the key to their precision damage not off guard.
maybe the ninja's thing could be playing into conditions like concealed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed. Maybe they gain some baseline benefit as long as they are at least concealed and get more for being hidden, and something additional for being undetected or unnoticed.

[RPG-Geek]

moosher12 wrote:

RPG-Geek wrote:

What did you think of my positioning-based hybrid of sneak attack and finishing blow as the basis for a mobile, flashy attacker that relies on set-up to dispatch foes they can't stand toe to toe with? I'd be aiming for a mechanic that goes from, "You idiot, I placed that trap there 12 seconds ago knowing you'd step on it. Now die!" to "Phew, if he'd stepped 5 feet to the side I'd be dead right now!" in the same package.

I'd be wary of too many conditionals, as it would take up a lot of page space to cover a broad range of conditions, and you'd likely run into a lot of situations where enemies just don't play along. It's essentially the Aikido problem.

But the idea itself is not bad from a flavor point, and I think you're onto something. Outsmarting prey and leading them into a trap. I'd probably suggest letting the Slayer modify the Feint action to do things other than make an opponent off guard. Say if you succeeded at feinting, you'd instead make them move 5 feet into a conveniently placed misc trap that does your choice of piercing or slashing damage, where higher tiers might instead make the trap do acid, fire, or other elemental damages. It gives you the idea of giving the appearance of a set-up, while not actually needing to plan very far ahead.

I'd be fine if Ninja were a Kinetiscist-level unicorn using page space that might have gone to spells on unique set-ups and payoffs that get combined on the fly to make a combat loop.

[RPG-Geek]

Bluemagetim wrote:

We can make a solid ninja already with the existing game options but it wouldn't come on line at level 1, at least the character would need some levels in them to get the skill feats for movement and a spellcasting dedication for magic. If one were to be its own class and not a higher level archtype (which might be another way to go) then there are going to be a lot of what makes a ninja a ninja slowly given as you level.

Much of the class concept are already skill feats. Can a ninja character be a ninja if they can't do these things? And if no then would they be included in the class budget and gained at certain levels? maybe including class features that interact with jumping climbing and maybe even crawling in some way.
Skill feats like:
Quick Jump
Wall Jump
Rolling Landing
Quick Climb
Water Sprint

These are all things a Ninja should be able to spec into, but you could make a convincing Ninja that does not of them and still have it work.

Quote:

Conceptually I think sneak attack is not really their thing, at least not in every way a rogue does it. For a ninja stealth feels like the key to their precision damage not off guard.

maybe the ninja's thing could be playing into conditions like concealed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed. Maybe they gain some baseline benefit as long as they are at least concealed and get more for being hidden, and something additional for being undetected or unnoticed.

Hence, my suggestion of a set of setup conditions and then triggered attacks in bespoke self-contained packages like the Kineticist. We rarely get class support anyway, so make the best thing you can as a self-contained package and damn the consequences.

[Bluemagetim]

These are some ideas for first level feats.

A feat to gain a level 1 Ninjitsu focus spell
A feat to dabble in alchemical items so they can have a daily supply of things like smokebombs

This would set up a choice to have no magic and still produce interesting effects.

[moosher12]

I don't think focus spells will be sufficient to fulfill the fantasy. Being able to do only one thing, even if it's once per 10 minutes, is gonna leave you wanting. Part of the fantasy of being a mystic ninja is having a decent repertoire of jutsu, and at one focus spell per feat, you'd run out of feats very quick before getting a fraction of what you'd want, especially as it's competing with your other ninja/slayer feats.

But more importantly, a lot of the jutsu you'd want already exist as arcane spells. I'd rather spend 3 feats to get 2 cantrips and 8 spells than I would to spend 10 feats to get 10 focus spells that I can only use 3 of at a time.

We already have the Bloodrager to show us we don't need to use only focus spells on martials. If a 12 HP tank can have 8 spells and 2 cantrips, I don't think it's out of line for the Slayer (If anything, I kind of wish Paizo would have considered that for the Champion and Ranger now that the Bloodrager got it for the former 1E Level 4 casters)

[Ryangwy]

I still find it amusing that enabling a non-magic or low-magic ninja is such a high priority, because beyond that not being what a ninja is, it's also already covered by existing classes (rogue and monk, respectively). It feeds into the 'ninjas are already represented' thing.

Because:

moosher12 wrote:

But more importantly, a lot of the jutsu you'd want already exist as arcane spells.

I feel like a 'ninja' class (IDK, they could name it something else like duskblade, to borrow a old 3.5e class), really needs the slots of a full caster like a warpriest to make it work. A wave caster will drop out the useful utility spells and also tends to hyperfocus on damaging spells instead, I feel.

Speaking of which - arcane cascade as the ninja damage booster. Hey, unlike the magus, they actually will have the actions to use it!

[PossibleCabbage]

I just don't see "ninja" in any media I encounter as particularly magical in nature. There doesn't seem anything inherent to the concept of "ninja" which is more about infiltration, sabotage, espionage, etc.

Like can someone explain what they think ninja is without making reference to movies, books, comics, tv shows, video games, etc.? For me the sine qua non of a ninja is "you're really sneaky" but you can already hide without even being concealed with legendary stealth. I'm willing to accept the "assassin" thing even though there's really no historical evidence of it.

Now, mind you, I absolutely believe there should be an occult wave-caster/martial hybrid to completement the Magus, but I don't think there's anything inherently "ninja" about that (it would just be yet another class you can use to play a ninja character.)

[RPG-Geek]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I just don't see "ninja" in any media I encounter as particularly magical in nature. There doesn't seem anything inherent to the concept of "ninja" which is more about infiltration, sabotage, espionage, etc.

Like can someone explain what they think ninja is without making reference to movies, books, comics, tv shows, video games, etc.? For me the sine qua non of a ninja is "you're really sneaky" but you can already hide without even being concealed with legendary stealth. I'm willing to accept the "assassin" thing even though there's really no historical evidence of it.

Now, mind you, I absolutely believe there should be an occult wave-caster/martial hybrid to completement the Magus, but I don't think there's anything inherently "ninja" about that (it would just be yet another class you can use to play a ninja character.)

We're talking about using portrayals from Japanese media to inform the Ninja's class design. There isn't a huge reason to be authentic when the Japanese themselves are fast and loose with the idea.

[Ryangwy]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like can someone explain what they think ninja is without making reference to movies, books, comics, tv shows, video games, etc.?

Aren't books like... the vast majority of historical, folklore any mythological records? And ninjas are actually fairly straightforward to follow as a idea, because of how recent they are (post-Sengoku mythologisation of a loose grouping of people who did certain important wartime roles and were of mixed status).

[Teridax]

Just to take Sekiro as an example, as he's meant to be an archetypal shinobi in a game made by a Japanese developer:

Sekiro can deal massive damage to unaware enemies, so sneak attacks would be very appropriate IMO.

Sekiro is super mobile and can parkour up and down buildings, trees, and other terrain, so some kind of improved mobility would likely suit.

Sekiro has a whole bunch of tricks quite literally up his sleeve. Some are more technological or alchemical, like firecrackers or a mini-flamethrower, while others are more magical, like a raven feather that lets you briefly turn into mist and dodge attacks. Additionally, he has access to a bunch of consumables that let him gain temporary benefits. Good access to various consumable items should be able to replicate all this.

Sekiro can learn different forms of ninjutsu and sword techniques, many of which have a magical element to them, all of which sound like feats.

So looking at the total package, I'd say: most of this already exists on the Rogue, and what's left could easily be implemented on the Rogue. Obviously, the Rogue has sneak attacks and plenty of sneaky techniques, so really what's missing are the more magical techniques, the parkour, and special synergy with more consumables besides poisons. All of those, in my opinion, could be implemented as feats, especially when Starfinder 2e's Operative has a Parkour feat ready to be carried over. If we want to front-load some of this power, we could also create a racket for it, such as a Scout racket for increased mobility, a Fence racket for plentiful access to consumables, or an updated Eldritch Trickster racket for access to a bit of magic.

If we're really going to dig into unique class mechanics, I'm personally quite interested in broadening the use of Focus Points so that it covers not just spells, but special abilities that require a bit more effort than your typical at-will technique. On a class that's meant to have a certain reserve of special actions, this could let you pull a smoke bomb from out of nowhere and throw it at your feet, just as it could let you deploy some Naruto-style ninjutsu and do a bit of magic. A martial chassis with 3 Focus Points, plus a whole range of special techniques to choose from, could be one possible way of designing a "bag of tricks" class that leverages their focus abilities as a way of gaining an edge in combat.

[Zoken44]

So... I would build on a chassis similar to the commander. However instead of Manuevers they have "Arts" or "Lessons" that serve for individual support purposes. They can prepare a small number of these each day, and their subclass gives them an extra always prepared one, as well as a bonus to a certain subset of these arts, which focus on stealth, disguise, acrobatics, survial, and poison.

Ninja's were spies, so I would focus on building them a niche around that and their version of sneak attack would focus on their arts, if someone was distracted, or deceived, or unaware, things like that. Very rough idea, but that's how I would do the Ninja.

[Elric200]

They should have an art for climbing, an art for unarmed combat and art for ninja weapons.

[PossibleCabbage]

Ryangwy wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like can someone explain what they think ninja is without making reference to movies, books, comics, tv shows, video games, etc.?

Aren't books like... the vast majority of historical, folklore any mythological records? And ninjas are actually fairly straightforward to follow as a idea, because of how recent they are (post-Sengoku mythologisation of a loose grouping of people who did certain important wartime roles and were of mixed status).

I mean, like "explain the premise of the class in terms that don't reference any exterior materials." Something like "The Champion is a martial representative of a god, they are defensive in nature." Or "A Kineticist has a gate to one or more elemental planes in their soul, which they can use to channel an endless stream of elemental power" or "An Oracle is a divine caster devoted to a concept rather than a deity, channeling divine power this way is more dangerous than through a god" or "A Thaumaturge is a martial master of mystical esoterica, to the point that their magical solutions and items of power never work for anybody else."

Like for a class to justify being made, you should be able to sum up what defines it in a sentence or two. If we're trying to enable a specific fantasy of "I want to be able to play a character that does [x]" then it's worth asking if an archetype could work for that instead.

[Perpdepog]

Bluemagetim wrote:

maybe the ninja's thing could be playing into conditions like concealed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed. Maybe they gain some baseline benefit as long as they are at least concealed and get more for being hidden, and something additional for being undetected or unnoticed.

I like this idea. Basically every class benefits from having those conditions, like how pretty much every class benefits from flanking an enemy, but comparatively few classes really need to be flanking all of the time. A hypothetical ninja feeding off of the Concealed and Hidden conditions could be cool. It also comes with a possible game play loop built in. Become Concealed/Hidden, do your thing, break your concealment, repeat.

My main concern is how it might slow play, needing to roll the extra flat checks, or if it might make a ninja overly durable as a dodge-tank, but I think it's an idea with possibilities at least.

[moosher12]

I'll give an answer then.

A ninja is a magical ambush martial that maintains a healthy balance between spell utility and martial prowess, toward the goal of tracking and incapacitating humanoid opponents. A ninja blends magic with tool use to infiltrate and exfiltrate areas, and track and ambush targets of interest with the aid of utility spells.

I want to play a character that can track someone through the wilderness like a ranger, or track someone through a city like an investigator, then dampen your sound and go invisible on the approach like a bard, ambush the target and get a few bonuses like how either the rogue or the ranger gets, all while doing cool things like using magic set pieces to cloak the area in darkness or mist, putting surrounding peoples to sleep, summoning mirror images for a prolonged fight, distracting the prey with an illusory creature, etc.

The red mantis school shows just a few of many spells that would be well applicable to these purposes. Red Mantis is already pretty much there, it just has all of the in-world clout of requiring you to be a worshipper of achaekek, which, frankly you do not need to be a mystical assassin like a ninja. I definitely don't think the Red Mantis Assassins should be the only ones allowed to have ninjutsu, because the Red Mantis Assassins basically have ninjutsu. As the Red Mantis Assassin added select arcane spells to the divine school, I'd think it prudent to instead add select arcane spells to the occult school, or vice versa.
cantrips: figment, gouging claw
1st: fleet step, illusory disguise, sure strike
2nd: invisibility, mist
3rd: clairaudience, paralyze
4th: clairvoyance, translocate
5th: hallucination, illusory scene
6th: mislead, phantasmal calamity
7th: duplicate foe, project image
8th: disappearance, unrelenting observation
9th: phantasmagoria

[PossibleCabbage]

moosher12 wrote:

I'll give an answer then.

A ninja is a magical ambush martial that maintains a healthy balance between spell utility and martial prowess, toward the goal of tracking and incapacitating humanoid opponents. A ninja blends magic with tool use to infiltrate and exfiltrate areas, and track and ambush targets of interest with the aid of utility spells.

See, to me that sounds like something I would build as a laughing shadows magus who invests in stealth. It also seems like a bigger conceptual space than "ninja" occupies.

[moosher12]

Laughing Shadow is almost there, but it is lacking in many places.
-Sure, it can get in and out of places. But it lacks the tracking aspects you'd want for the bounty hunter role, because you also need to spec survival and perception (a ninja would likely want Legendary Reflex/Perception at the end).
-Because Magus is an Int caster, you'd also be dividing your necessary skills between Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom to do the job. A ninja certainly would need to be a wisdom caster. The magus gets enough flak for needing 2 attributes to do its base expectations, introducing the need for a 3rd to get the flavor is quite the ask.
-Then, you have to deal with the problem of Magus being a bounded caster and having a hyper-limited spell slot allocation. Red Mantis Assassin is laughing all the way to the bank in the fact they simply have more versatility than a magus ever will on a given day. If anything, I'd probably propose a Psychic spell allotment for a ninja using 5 cantrips, if not a bard spell allotment.
-Lastly, magus can hit hard in general, yes, but it simply does not give the flavor of an ambush. It can do the same thing whether it is surrounded or alone. There is no reward for a magus tailing a specific target who is vulnerable beyond the baseline. It needs some Investigator/Operative/Rogue/Ranger/Slayer style advantage for a marked prey.

[Teridax]

I think it's worth bringing up that for any given archetype in fiction, there are usually several different paths to approach in Pathfinder 2e. If you want to put emphasis on a ninja's skills and sneakiness, the Rogue would work really well as a baseline chassis. If you want a magic-user who makes incredibly deadly magical attacks with a dagger, the Laughing Shadow Magus will have you covered. Even a Ranger chassis could potentially work if you distance yourself somewhat from the nature theme, and all of these can be mixed and matched with archetypes. There's certainly more that could be done to accommodate certain iconic ninja abilities a bit better by way of feats or even subclasses, though.

[PossibleCabbage]

Paizo is extremely careful with the power budget for Wis-based casters, so I do not think we are ever going to get a Wis-Gish, since those classes are already straining at the bonds of class budgets since they're trying to do unrelated things effectively. Your choices are basically Cha or Int, IMO. I do not think you're going to get more casting than a Magus on any character who gets good weapon proficiencies just due to class budget reasons, and the more you invest in spellcasting the fewer "unique mechanics" you get.

The other thing about "ambush" as a mechanic is that Pathfinder is structurally not a game where it's generally possible to take down a credible opponent in a single attack or even a single round. Combat is supposed to have some back and forth in it. Like the Assassin archetype tops out on a 6d6 precision, and fort save where you die if you crit fail at level 12, and that takes five actions to pull off. I've never seen anyone even try to make this character.

[moosher12]

Ranger would actually be the closest if it was not for its lack of urban support. Ranger really needs favored terrain: urban, and favored enemy: humanoid.

[moosher12]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

The other thing about "ambush" as a mechanic is that Pathfinder is structurally not a game where it's generally possible to take down a credible opponent in a single attack or even a single round. Combat is supposed to have some back and forth in it. Like the Assassin archetype tops out on a 6d6 precision, and fort save where you die if you crit fail at level 12, and that takes five actions to pull off. I've never seen anyone even try to make this character.

When I say Ambush, I refer to Sneak Attack, Aim, and Hunt Prey. I consider those ambush abilities. A mild advantage for focused attention on a vulnerable target, not a quick finisher.

[Bluemagetim]

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.
I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

[Ryangwy]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, like "explain the premise of the class in terms that don't reference any exterior materials." Something like "The Champion is a martial representative of a god, they are defensive in nature." Or "A Kineticist has a gate to one or more elemental planes in their soul, which they can use to channel an endless stream of elemental power" or "An Oracle is a divine caster devoted to a concept rather than a deity, channeling divine power this way is more dangerous than through a god" or "A Thaumaturge is a martial master of mystical esoterica, to the point that their magical solutions and items of power never work for anybody else."

The folklore ninja can be summarised as "A stealthy martial who supplements their fighting with a variety of arcane tricks", if that is what you mean...

Though that's not what a lot of people think the ninja should be. Jiraya fought a giant snake and a giant slug, not just people, you know?

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Paizo is extremely careful with the power budget for Wis-based casters, so I do not think we are ever going to get a Wis-Gish, since those classes are already straining at the bonds of class budgets since they're trying to do unrelated things effectively. Your choices are basically Cha or Int, IMO. I do not think you're going to get more casting than a Magus on any character who gets good weapon proficiencies just due to class budget reasons, and the more you invest in spellcasting the fewer "unique mechanics" you get.

It could be a Warpriest-style caster, losing Font for a damage and possibly accuracy booster tied to spellcasting. Personally, I don't think the folklore ninja is particularly lethal (relative to, say, samurais) so I don't think they need the buckets of precision damage a proper rogue-type has, but again, I'm in the minority. Everyone seems to want a Western-style assassin with ki...

[moosher12]

Bluemagetim wrote:

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

[ApocalypseJack]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I'll give an answer then.

A ninja is a magical ambush martial that maintains a healthy balance between spell utility and martial prowess, toward the goal of tracking and incapacitating humanoid opponents. A ninja blends magic with tool use to infiltrate and exfiltrate areas, and track and ambush targets of interest with the aid of utility spells.

See, to me that sounds like something I would build as a laughing shadows magus who invests in stealth. It also seems like a bigger conceptual space than "ninja" occupies.

That's EXACTLY the space the ninja occupies. Already. In 1st edition, where it's an actual class and functions pretty much without issue. It does all those things by having the flexibility to pick from rogue talents and thematically chosen monk ki abilities in a way that allows them to be part assassin, part investigator, and still leaves room for being a martial artist or a swordsman or an archer.

And that's BEFORE you consider multiclassing or archetypes.

Now, 2e does things differently of course, so it's not like you can jus straight port it over, but there are a couple important lessons we can take from the original model:

1e's Ninja as an alternative rogue's base appeal is that it allowed for a variety of experiences and playstyles, via feat/talent choice, which enabled you to strongly customize WHAT the class felt like. What your particular ninja specialized in. This is one of the things about PF2e that I actually think excels and makes it PERFECT for creating an updated ninja! And irritates me so much that it seems to get so much pushback.

The system's already got the entire groundwork for enabling a broad variety of class ability feats which could be written to spec out a unique, multifaceted ninja who has various bits and pieces of somewhat scaled-back class features from other classes combined into a unique tapestry of associated skillsets. I shouldn't HAVE to cobble together a PASSABLE ninja out of the leftover scraps of 2e's godawful archetypes that live in abject terror of actually letting you experience any of the joy of the class they offer up piecemeal. Archetypes are fun for when you want a class that has a couple of niche abilities from another class that'll almost invariably never be anywhere as useful as you imagined them to be when you took them.

But that doesn't work for making a Ninja. It needs the flexibility of bespoke class feats that actually enable a modicum of function and choice in its borrowing from the talents of rogues and monks and a smattering of spellcasting thrown in. Because these aren't INCIDENTALS you're picking up on the side. They are what defines the class, and to get the FEEL of what the Ninja in 1e does in 2e, you need to actually be a whole fully-realized class with feats/abilities that facilitate its playstyle based around flexible player choice.

- It needs its own bespoke version of a sneak attack/precision damage ability. Probably somewhere between the Investigator's strategic strike and the Rogue's full-out sneak attack.

- It needs some version of racket/curriculum/style selection which enables access to more fully-fleshed systems for magic/whatever the ki stand-in now (crappy focus spell system probably), stealth, etc.

- It needs some kind of access to a tracking ability.

- It would ideally offer some kind of benefit to using the specialized tools and equipment from the region of the world it originates (but this seems difficult to accomplish with how much weapon-choice feels like flavor more than mechanics now)

- It needs to be modular, and have a means for those who specialize in any of the main Ways/Schemes/Schools/Whatever to gain access to bits and pieces of the other talents a la carte.

These are things that only a fully-fledged class and the infrastructure it provides can really adequately accomplish.

[Agonarchy]

Mystical ninja have always been around, but the concept was on top of the standard ninja whose skills were more like magic tricks that felt magical in the moment. Apart from the rogue, a swashbuckler that focuses on stealth, deception, and tools fits the bill nicely; the default tumbling covers the gratuitous ninja flips.

[Zoken44]

I would say I want magic to be limited to a subclass or class archetype. The real practical things Ninja did were pretty awesome.

Also, no Katana or Wakizashi. those weren't Ninja weapons.

[Bluemagetim]

moosher12 wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

what you are describing sounds more like it would be best done with archtype that can be taken by any class to take on the ninja like skills and abilities.

One that prereqs stealth acrobatics and athletics probably. Allows you to make one of them expert at dedication.
Might also need to preq +2 str and Dex cause no matter the class you start as a ninja has to be athletic and stealthy.
Adds proficiency with some specific weapons make this a regional archtype and specific weapons becomes kind of sensible for the archtype (yes probably wasted on martials but thats the usual.) The weapons then are also a feature of the region in Golarian the archtype is from and not reality.
because its an archtype it can focus solely on the things you think make a ninja a ninja and leave the combat bent to the class you chose as your chassis (combat expressions vary quite a bit in existing tropes). That way you can make a laughing shadow magus to fight the way you want but the ninja archtype to be better at stealth and maybe add some ninja specific focus spells and feats. Some of the feats can focus on tracking, some on advanced focus spells, some on alchemist items like smokebombs. Be the ninja you want to be at the cost of class feats.
But this way anyone can pick the level of magic to martial they want by choosing their class and still be a ninja. And more importantly its balanced because its not creating some super character amazing at too many types of proficiency(the ninja it seems everyone wants is a full casting martial), its just using feats to add in level appropriate abilities to diversify an existing class.

Call the archtype Living Shadow? This way when you make one you might be thinking ninja but not everyone making one has to concept it as a ninja.
Edit: looks like someone copywrote that name already.

[Ravenhurst1161]

So I’ve been following this thread with great interest, and I want to weigh in not just from a theorycrafting standpoint, but from actual weekly gameplay experience. Mind you, I am not well-versed in this system, so some information may be incorrect.

I'm currently running a 9th-level "Ninja" in a Kingmaker campaign — built as a Palace Echoes Kitsune Rogue using the Thief Racket, with Assassin and Shadowdancer dedications layered on. My focus is stealth, mobility, evasive resilience, and alpha precision damage. On paper? It works. But in practice? It exposes just how much the current system lacks to support the Ninja fantasy as its own thing.

You can preview the build here: https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1177828

Let me give you a sense of what this character can already do:

• 90 feet of movement per round while remaining fully stealthed, climbing, swimming, or even crawling — thanks to Fleet, Mobility, Cat Fall, Nimble Crawl, Rolling Landing, and Swift Sneak.

• Greater Darkvision, +2 to Stealth in dim light or darkness (Palace Echoes heritage), and Shadow Rune on armor (+1 stealth, +1 saves).

• Deny Advantage, Rogue Resilience, and Evasive Reflexes for potent defense — plus crit success upgrades on Reflex and Fort saves.

• Mark for Death + Sneak Attack + Incredible Initiative + 90ft of stealth movement = a very cinematic opener.

In-character, I lean heavily into the trope of the ever-absent shadow: unseen until spoken of, then suddenly there. Thematically? It hits. Mechanically? It’s patched together with duct tape and prayer. Everything I do had to be carefully picked from dozens of sources and weighed against what I had to give up to get it. I can get Taijutsu — the physical aspect — to work, but that’s where the support ends.

Where this “Rogue with archetypes” approach collapses is when I try to dip into Ninjutsu or Genjutsu:

• Want to throw a kunai with an ofuda talisman to cast Darkness or Fireball? Requires investing in another archetype with multiple feats — a heavy cost.

• Want a Substitution Technique that lets me poof out at 1 HP and avoid death once per day? I have to beg for magic items or awkwardly justify a focus spell.

• Want utility illusions, minor teleportation, or mystical smokescreen shenanigans? Time to cannibalize half the build.

If I want to dabble in mystic ninja territory, I either need to burn 5+ feats for focus spells (and be locked to only using 3 per encounter) or loan spells from allies (Loaner Spell is cool but janky). That’s not versatility — it’s jury-rigging.

Could magic items solve some of this? Sure, but that’s gold- and downtime-gated, and it doesn’t scale cleanly. It’s also not “Ninja as a class” — it’s “Ninja as a build tax.”

As others like ApocalypseJack and moosher12 have said, a true Ninja class shouldn’t be a loose reskin of Rogue, Magus, or Monk. It should be a modular chassis — a flexible platform that lets you decide what flavor of Ninja you want to be:

• Martial-only assassin? Go full Taijutsu.

• Jutsu-flavored shinobi with trick items and flashy movement? Hybrid route with embedded magical options.

• Genjutsu illusionist playing mind games and vanishing acts? Focus-spell/illusion route.

Give them a system — like the Kineticist’s Impulses or Swashbuckler’s Panache — where their combat loop revolves around setup and payoff. Let concealment, hidden status, feinting, and battlefield positioning unlock powerful abilities. Let “ninja tools” be real mechanical items with in-combat applications. Let them choose a style path, a curriculum of Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu, and specialize accordingly.

It doesn’t need to be a full caster. Hell, it shouldn’t be. But if you’re in a fantasy setting, pretending that “the realistic ninja wouldn’t use magic” is absurd — these are the kinds of characters who would absolutely use anything at their disposal to complete the mission. Including magic. Especially magic.

TL;DR:

Yes, Rogue + archetypes + items can approximate a ninja. But you shouldn’t need an Excel spreadsheet to make a fantasy class feel playable. Give us a Ninja class with:

• Modular talent trees (Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu)

• Setup/payoff combat rhythm

• Stealth-based precision, not off-guard reaction triggers

• Optional spellcasting/focus-based trickery

• A real identity, not just Rogue in cosplay

PF2’s class design is flexible and modular enough to make this work without breaking the game. I don’t want the ninja fantasy to feel like I’m getting away with something. I want it to be something the system embraces.

[Bluemagetim]

Ravenhurst1161 wrote:

So I’ve been following this thread with great interest, and I want to weigh in not just from a theorycrafting standpoint, but from actual weekly gameplay experience. Mind you, I am not well-versed in this system, so some information may be incorrect.

I'm currently running a 9th-level "Ninja" in a Kingmaker campaign — built as a Palace Echoes Kitsune Rogue using the Thief Racket, with Assassin and Shadowdancer dedications layered on. My focus is stealth, mobility, evasive resilience, and alpha precision damage. On paper? It works. But in practice? It exposes just how much the current system lacks to support the Ninja fantasy as its own thing.

You can preview the build here: https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1177828

Let me give you a sense of what this character can already do:

• 90 feet of movement per round while remaining fully stealthed, climbing, swimming, or even crawling — thanks to Fleet, Mobility, Cat Fall, Nimble Crawl, Rolling Landing, and Swift Sneak.

• Greater Darkvision, +2 to Stealth in dim light or darkness (Palace Echoes heritage), and Shadow Rune on armor (+1 stealth, +1 saves).

• Deny Advantage, Rogue Resilience, and Evasive Reflexes for potent defense — plus crit success upgrades on Reflex and Fort saves.

• Mark for Death + Sneak Attack + Incredible Initiative + 90ft of stealth movement = a very cinematic opener.

In-character, I lean heavily into the trope of the ever-absent shadow: unseen until spoken of, then suddenly there. Thematically? It hits. Mechanically? It’s patched together with duct tape and prayer. Everything I do had to be carefully picked from dozens of sources and weighed against what I had to give up to get it. I can get Taijutsu — the physical aspect — to work, but that’s where the support ends.

Where this “Rogue with archetypes” approach collapses is when I try to dip into Ninjutsu or Genjutsu:

• Want to throw a kunai with an ofuda talisman to cast Darkness or Fireball? Requires investing in another archetype with multiple feats — a...

This could be done actually by giving the class the doctrine treatment that clerics got.

One can be a full martial progression
One can be a full caster progression
A third would be a hybrid or wavecasting progression

All get the mechanic revolving around improving their chosen paths abilities while concealed or hidden.
That could be cool

[moosher12]

Bluemagetim wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

what you are describing sounds more like it would be best done with archtype that can be taken by any class to take on the ninja like skills and abilities.

One that prereqs stealth acrobatics and athletics probably. Allows you to make one of them expert at dedication.
Might also need to preq +2 str and Dex cause no matter the class you start as a ninja has to be athletic and stealthy.
Adds proficiency with some specific weapons make this a regional archtype and specific weapons becomes kind of sensible for the archtype (yes probably wasted on martials but thats the usual.) The weapons then are also a feature of the region in Golarian the archtype is from and not reality.
because its an archtype it can focus solely on the things you think make a ninja a ninja and leave the combat bent to the class you chose as your chassis (combat expressions vary quite a bit in existing tropes). That way you can make a laughing shadow magus to fight the way you want but the ninja archtype to be better at stealth and maybe add some ninja specific focus spells and feats. Some of the feats can focus on tracking, some on advanced focus spells, some on alchemist items like smokebombs. Be the ninja you want to be at the cost of class feats.
But this way anyone can pick the level of magic to martial they want by choosing their class and still be a ninja. And more importantly its balanced because...

An archetype would not be bad, though it'd definitely need to be at least a 2-page archetype.

We do already have a ninja-like archetype, that even has ninjutsu, but it's problematic. That's the Red Mantis Assassin. It has too much Lost Omens clout, it's too religiously coded, and it's too evil-coded. Sure, it has the assassin aspect, and it has the magic. But you cannot actually use it in a lost omens game without a GM going in and removing its requirements. If you want to be a ninja that does not worship a deity, and works off of cultivation like a monk, the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. If you want to be a ninja that fights for good, like how the Inquisitor is now the Vindicator, then the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. You'd have to change its proficiency with sawtooth sabers to something else, and all support for them to something else to keep equivalent strength, and you'd have to swap deity anathema-moderated spellcasting for another type of spellcasting, as removing the religious anathema is a balancing point for being able to choose from any divine spell, even if it might not seem like a huge balance point. So this is not only a point of deliberation for the home table that would cause a high degree of table variance, but simply an impossibility in a sanctioned game such as in Pathfinder Society. Which means we'd need a dedicated ninja that is both lore agnostic, religiously agnostic (and as a tie in, morally agnostic). A 2-page archetype could work, sure. Though I do question of 2 pages can do everything it wants to do. It could also reasonably be a 1-2 page expansion on the assassin archetype if it had to be an archetype.

[Ascalaphus]

I think the "general archetype that works on a lot of classes" is probably the most promising approach. We have a lot of classes that have the right chassis for one particular take on what a ninja is. But they can all use a bit more help really adding the finishing touches. So an archetype that's a bit of a grab-bag where different classes are more likely to pick one feat or the other, could be the most "make it YOUR version of ninja".

---

Aside from the rogue, ranger, laughing shadow magus, monk, we have more classes that could be credible ninjas. I think you could also do it with a a swashbuckler. If you reinterpret panache not as "flashy" but present it more as extreme stealth, deceptiveness, confusing footwork, dirty tricks and so forth, well I think a lot of the finishers definitely feel like they could be presented as ninja moves too.

[Bluemagetim]

I think a starless shadow witch could be a great starting class for a full caster ninja with the boost from a ninja archtype too.

[Ryangwy]

A friend of mine helped me pin down where all those magicless ninjas come from - 70's action movies, which dropped the core mysticism of the folklore ninja due to budgetary issue and the fact Orientalism alone is sufficient to sell. So long as people's vision of ninjas have to accommodate that, we'll never see a ninja class or archetype, partially because cultural appropriation and partially because you're now covering such a wide spread of ideas only held together by a pile of weapons and things that are just skills. As long as the low or no magic ninja is considered 'important', it will never happen, because rogues and monks exist.

Still, I'm going to try one more pitch for the folklore ninja. I don't expect it to get a lot of traction, people are really attached to the Hollywood ninja, but I can try.

Guardian Ninja
You are a guardian in the night against all kinds of enemies. As such, you have delved more deeply into the wider use of magic, stealth and infiltration than is typical for a magus, though that comes at a cost in the ability to blend offensive magic into your strikes. You must select Guardian Ninja Dedication as your 2nd level class feat.

Prerequisite: You are a magus
Guardian Ninja Adjustment: You do not gain Spellstrike or Studious Spells.
You are trained in Arcana, Stealth, Deception and a number of additional skills equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier.
You must choose the Guardian Ninja hybrid study
Spellcasting Adjustment: Unlike other magus, your increased focus on the arcane arts means you gain more spells and do not lose them as you level up. You gain spells like a wizard (though you lack a curriculum, or the 10th rank slot).

Guardian Ninja hybrid study
Monastic practise is your path to maintaining physical training with your increased magical studies. You gain the Spellflurry action and the vanish into smoke conflux spell.

Spellflurry free action
Magus, Flourish
Requirement You used your most recent action this turn to Cast a Spell or enter Arcane Cascade
Frequency Until recharge
You use the momentum of spellcasting to follow up with a blow. Make a strike with an unarmed attack or weapon with the monk trait. Recharging Spellflurry is identical to recharging Spellstrike.

Vanish into Smoke one action Focus 1
Magus, Concentrate
With a puff of magically generated smoke, you vanish. Create a Diversion, then Sneak. You may use Arcana instead of Deception or Stealth for these checks, and gain a +1 status bonus to them. Create a Diversion does not gain any additional traits.

Heightened +3: Increase the status bonus by 1

Guardian Ninja Dedication Feat 2
Archetype, Dedication
Prerequisite: Guardian Ninja

With magic humming in your veins, you find it easier to take advantage of those debilitated by your tricks. While in Arcane Cascade, you deal bonus precision damage equal to twice your bonus damage from Arcane Cascade against enemies that are flat-footed, frightened, sickened, enfeebled, clumsy, stupefied, drained, slowed, stunned or taking ongoing damage with unarmed attacks or weapons with the monk trait.

Additional feats:

Kunai Training Feat 1
Prerequisites: Spellflurry, Arcane Cascade

You train yourself to use certain thrown weapons in tune with your magic. For you, daggers, throwing knives and starknives gain the monk trait, and you increase the damage die of daggers and throwing knives by one step. When you Strike with a thrown weapon while in Arcane Cascade, the weapon's range increment increases 10 feet.

Katana Training Feat 1
Prerequisites: Spellflurry

While widely considered a noble's weapon, there is no reason that a noble cannot be a ninja. For you, katanas and wakizashis gain the monk trait.

Magical Surprise Feat 1

People are often taken aback by a ninja breathing fire in their direction. Enemies adjacent to you that took damage from one of your spells are flat-footed to you until end of your turn.

Contract Specialisation Feat 4
Prerequisite: Arcane Cascade

You have delved deep into the realms of summons and made specialised contracts with them. You may enter Arcane Cascade as a free action if your last action was to cast a battle form or summon spell. Additionally, while in Arcane Cascade, your summoned minions also gain the benefits of the stance.

Spellstriker Feat 6

As per Magus Dedication

[moosher12]

I do like your approach, Ryangwy.

At this point, you are making a class archetype for the magus, though, and that's a good thing.

Because a class archetype can grant benefits from level 1, you can grant the monk trait to weapons at that point. Then you can grant the thrown weapon range increase during the dedication feat at level 2.

Additionally, there are opportunities to generalize the theme culturally. It does not need to be Japanese swords only. And in addition to the weapons you listed, I'd like to suggest the shortsword and possibly the rapier. Following that, in addition to daggers and throwing knives, I'd recommend the corset knife. But ultimately, it might be a to find an acceptable rule for a blanket list of weapons by qualities, rather than listing specific weapons, such as perhaps Agile or Finesse trait with 1d6 base damage dice or less, for example. (On the Agile side, weapons like the Sap, Dart, and Blowgun might be thematic, while on the Finesse side are various permutations of knives, the shortsword, the rapier, and the wakizashi lie. Perhaps a ninja does not need a full sized katana anyway, that would probably skew slightly more samurai coded for the fighter anyway. Though it can always be added as an exception if really needed. Either way, using a generalized trait set will reduce the amount of specific exceptions that have to be added, while letting a lot of loosely related weapons fall under the umbrella for the purpose of future books)

From there, other feats would start to kick in at level 4, such as for Magical Surprise, Spellstriker, and a smattering of other thematic feats.

[Ryangwy]

moosher12 wrote:

I do like your approach, Ryangwy.

At this point, you are making a class archetype for the magus, though, and that's a good thing.

Because a class archetype can grant benefits from level 1, you can grant the monk trait to weapons at that point. Then you can grant the thrown weapon range increase during the dedication feat at level 2.

Additionally, there are opportunities to generalize the theme culturally. It does not need to be Japanese swords only. And in addition to the weapons you listed, I'd like to suggest the shortsword and possibly the rapier. Following that, in addition to daggers and throwing knives, I'd recommend the corset knife. But ultimately, it might be a to find an acceptable rule for a blanket list of weapons by qualities, rather than listing specific weapons, such as perhaps Agile or Finesse trait with 1d6 base damage dice or less, for example. (On the Agile side, weapons like the Sap, Dart, and Blowgun might be thematic, while on the Finesse side are various permutations of knives, the shortsword, the rapier, and the wakizashi lie. Perhaps a ninja does not need a full sized katana anyway, that would probably skew slightly more samurai coded for the fighter anyway. Though it can always be added as an exception if really needed. Either way, using a generalized trait set will reduce the amount of specific exceptions that have to be added, while letting a lot of loosely related weapons fall under the umbrella for the purpose of future books)

Hmm, I didn't want to make it infinitely expandable, partially because the monk trait already covers a lot of weapons and partially because if you expand it too much you end up eating into the regular magus space. Kunai Training/Katana Training were really just there for their iconicness (and also because they won't step on the toes of the existing monk weapons). I did consider all agile weapons but after thinking, I'm not convinced letting a ninja spellflurry with a light pick is worth the hassle. The premise, after all, is that being able to flurry is part of the budget of the monk trait.

I was also leery of adding too much at 1st level, because while spellflurry is a downgrade more spell slots are definitely not... though it takes a while to kick in and I absolutely forgot that magus don't get a 1st level feat, so maybe it could grant a 1st level feat so you don't have to human to toss kunais that early. Maybe shave off one skill so it's the same as regular Magus (a slight downgrade in practise, since you lack freedom).

[Bluemagetim]

Ryangwy aren't you basically suggesting a full caster with full martial scaling?

[Ryangwy]

Bluemagetim wrote:

Ryangwy aren't you basically suggesting a full caster with full martial scaling?

Like the warpriest... in theory. The suggested ninja has a very weak damage booster (going from +3 to +9, and having a hefty action cost to enable) and caps out at master spellcaster (and at this point I realise it has a dead 19th level feature in double spellstrike). Does get that and master weapon a lot earlier than the warpriest though - if I have more time I'd probably shuffle the levels that proficiencies are gained to match the warpriest (OK, probably master weapon earlier than 19th, arcane doesn't get heroism). Or just flat out make a new class with warpriest progression.

[moosher12]

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.