In my experience, AC hit points and defenses are fine, especially Nimble Companions.
It's their offense and movement abilities that are weak. A lot of high level stuff flies and moves around quick, you have to be able to chase it. The only companions that can play in three dimensions are birds and bats.
The overall offense of the higher level companions is weak. Their special attacks are weak. The ACs do pretty much one thing: strike. Very little tactical capability for ACs. Just a low damage chance at an an extra weak strike that has been handily outpaced by the PCs and anything they fight.
In my experience, AC hit points and defenses are fine, especially Nimble Companions.
It's their offense and movement abilities that are weak. A lot of high level stuff flies and moves around quick, you have to be able to chase it. The only companions that can play in three dimensions are birds and bats.
The overall offense of the higher level companions is weak. Their special attacks are weak. The ACs do pretty much one thing: strike. Very little tactical capability for ACs. Just a low damage chance at an an extra weak strike that has been handily outpaced by the PCs and anything they fight.
I agree with your observations.
At higher levels they need to allow items that would give access to flight for companions, even it's limited duration and limited uses per day. But since most companions are melee only, and pretty much strike only, it can suck when you encounter something that can fly 15ft in the air and avoid your companion. And I agree the defensive side of companions is okay. They don't become a burden on the party, generally speaking. But they also don't contribute much at high level.
Companions should be a set of basic, autoscaling stats with abilities granted/expanded by feats. Kind of like how a summoner or witch spends feats to give their respective companions unique abilities.
I think we're trying to say the same thing.
On the HP thing, I think it's probably workable to not have a shared pool by having the character have 6 HP per level, and have the eidolon-animal-companion thing have 6 or 8 hp per level. The somewhat larger overall pool would be balanced by the fact that they no longer share healing. IN any event, I agree that for this kind of character to make sense, you have to decouple the HP. And you also have to address action economy, though I'm less sure how to do that. The base Summoner ability it Act Together, which amounts to having 4 actions. Which works the same as a character commanding an animal companion. Later the summoner/eidolon can get feats that improve action economy to do certain things.
I think the separate HP pool is one of the reasons why animal companions can't be expected to be quite as powerful as an eidolon in other respects, and it's one more thing animal companions contribute that eidolons don't. Similarly, the support ability from the beginning is another benefit. Sharing actions could be interesting; I wonder if this could work as a general framework for any sort of extra body, including familiars and summons.
Only tangentially related, but I thought this was a better place for this question than a dedicated thread: how exactly does the weapon proficiency and armor proficiency work for followers from the captain archetype? I have the book in front of me but I'm struggling to find it within the relevant pages; I know the pertinent feats give the listed benefits on the follower statblock, but I cant find the words for their base proficiencies and advancements
Only tangentially related, but I thought this was a better place for this question than a dedicated thread: how exactly does the weapon proficiency and armor proficiency work for followers from the captain archetype? I have the book in front of me but I'm struggling to find it within the relevant pages; I know the pertinent feats give the listed benefits on the follower statblock, but I cant find the words for their base proficiencies and advancements
Page 77, under Novice Followers:
"Proficiencies: Your follower is trained in their listed attacks, the armor from their kit, Perception, all saving throws, and the skills listed in their stat block."
They don't have weapon or armor proficiencies per se, just proficiencies in the thing in their statblock. So for example the Berserker is trained in their falchion strike and their armor kit. If you gave them a greatsword and full plate, they'd be Untrained in both.
I think a companion that is durable or can hit effectively or that has an effective special effect is the minimum that's need to make them fun for the player.
They don't need have all three, or even two, but right now I don't think we can count on even one of these things from our Companions.
Well not from levels 1-20.
There is a legitimate concern that a player character with an extra body is unfair to to everyone else.
Why not have the PC pay for everything out of their own resources?
Actions, and feats, assigned strait to the Companion.
Maybe even hit points!
To me, the customization this would facilitate is more important than getting extra actions.
I suggested this during the Summoner playtest, well the feats anyway.
Magic items should already be available to Companions without special restriction for the same reason, if you are spending magic item resources on them, you aren't spending them elsewhere.
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Only tangentially related, but I thought this was a better place for this question than a dedicated thread: how exactly does the weapon proficiency and armor proficiency work for followers from the captain archetype? I have the book in front of me but I'm struggling to find it within the relevant pages; I know the pertinent feats give the listed benefits on the follower statblock, but I cant find the words for their base proficiencies and advancementsPage 77, under Novice Followers:
"Proficiencies: Your follower is trained in their listed attacks, the armor from their kit, Perception, all saving throws, and the skills listed in their stat block."
They don't have weapon or armor proficiencies per se, just proficiencies in the thing in their statblock. So for example the Berserker is trained in their falchion strike and their armor kit. If you gave them a greatsword and full plate, they'd be Untrained in both.
Yup, there it is. Also upon closer inspections I see some advancements bumping proficiencies in strikes and such. Shame on me for skimming, lol. Guardian and berserker sounds like a fun combo!
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I think the separate HP pool is one of the reasons why animal companions can't be expected to be quite as powerful as an eidolon in other respects, and it's one more thing animal companions contribute that eidolons don't. Similarly, the support ability from the beginning is another benefit. Sharing actions could be interesting; I wonder if this could work as a general framework for any sort of extra body, including familiars and summons.I think we're trying to say the same thing.
On the HP thing, I think it's probably workable to not have a shared pool by having the character have 6 HP per level, and have the eidolon-animal-companion thing have 6 or 8 hp per level. The somewhat larger overall pool would be balanced by the fact that they no longer share healing. IN any event, I agree that for this kind of character to make sense, you have to decouple the HP. And you also have to address action economy, though I'm less sure how to do that. The base Summoner ability it Act Together, which amounts to having 4 actions. Which works the same as a character commanding an animal companion. Later the summoner/eidolon can get feats that improve action economy to do certain things.
The separate hit point pool is a boon for the summoner. I was wrong that it would be a problem. It makes the summoner easier to heal. I'm not sure the separate hit point pool can be discussed as a benefit any longer. The healing optimization of the joined hit point pool is more to the summoner's benefit, though it does have the two points of attack weakness the AC lacks if the DM can exploit it. I think the separate hit point pool is a wash or makes the AC slightly weaker and requires more maintenance healing.
The AC can't be as powerful as the eidolon. But it can be stronger than it is in small ways. It's a very large feat investment to scale so badly in the second half of the game from 11 to 20.
I'm firmly convinced the game is almost designed in two parts. The 1 to 10 game which is pretty well balanced for nearly every class.
And the 11 to 20 game where some of the class scaling starts to have problems due to design choices that impact action economy, damage, and the overall scaling of classes that creates a wider tier between classes than needs to exist with the animal companion being one of those game elements that needs some better higher level scaling in the 11 to 20 range.
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Indeed, the shared HP pool on the eidolon is a boon to the Summoner, and the eidolon themselves, as the eidolon doesn't add HP to the battle (or actions), and so all of their power can be concentrated onto their extra body and their Strikes. I think it's also worth pointing out that animal companions, on top of offering a special support benefit as soon as you get them, can also be obtained with a 1st-level class feat, whereas eidolons are either a core class feature or something you get in nerfed form with a 2nd-level multiclass dedication feat.
With this in mind, how's this for a framework for animal companions:
The general idea here being that you start off with fewer benefits, but those benefits stay relevant throughout the whole game, and any benefits you pick up with feats would similarly remain relevant at all times. You'd still need to pick up perhaps the same total number of feats to gain the same total benefits as before, but could afford to have a companion that remains good at what fewer things they do with a smaller feat investment, instead of needing to pick up feats just for the companion to stay relevant.
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I'll have a better idea in several months now that I'm playing my ranger/beastmaster. But from what I've seen from other players and running numbers versus previous groups effectiveness, I think the biggest problem is just needing a few companion items to fix common situations. We have wave rider barding to give swim speed, there needs to be a non-barding option for flight. Barding for many AC becomes useless as you can get 7-9 dex easily thus making dex based ACs vastly superior to STR based ones. Even savage companions get too much Dex for barding, that can't be intended.
So first off fix itemization for ACs to scale into late game better.
Second fix specializations and perhaps the Non-nimble advancements. The raw numbers don't add up.
A nimble companion can have 43AC, 206 HP, 33hit, 3d8+8 damage at 20.
A savage companion can have 36(!)AC, 228HP, 32hit, 3d8+14 damage at 20.
Not having magical barding that scales up or having a defensive proficiency buff really kills non-nimble companions.
Get them items for alternate movement methods as those become available to PCs and fix the numbers first and foremost.
Once companions are able to keep up with where PCs are bringing the fight and are balanced with each other so there isn't a clear right way to build them, then we can start having talks on how they are performimg. Because right now companions are just a mess that only holds together at low levels.
Have you read the Necrologist Archetype?
It's not a companion (in fact, it works more like an eidolon) but it's a horde of undeads that the character can summon once each 10 minutes and sustain it for 1 minute (usually enough for 99% of encounters) “it uses your AC, saves, and other defensive statistics like skill DCs, but is immune to the grappled, prone, and restrained conditions. The horde has resistance equal to your level to physical damage, but weakness equal to your level to area and splash damage. You share an animating force, so any damage that would be dealt to the horde is dealt to you instead, though you take damage only once from any ability that includes both you and the horde in the area of effect (though you take the greater amount of damage)”.
It does an AoE MAPless damage with just one-action that does 2d6 vs basic reflex save at lvl 6 and heightens every 4 levels (4d6 at lvl 10, 6d6 at lvl 14 and 8d6 at level 18).
The big disadvantage it that it needs to be sustained and the Sustain action just allows moving it (what effectively means that you need to use 2 or more separated actions, one to sustain and others to do damage) and once that it uses your Spell DC into the saves and requires to be able to cast from spell slot and able to cast summon undead so it is caster made.
But the point about this, it doesn't need to get more feats to keep working once it auto improves with the caster so the other archetype feats are made horizontally improve the horde.
Maybe this template could make others alternatives to companions/summons in the future (I hope some of them not caster focused) to use to those dislike the currently companions system.
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Have you read the Necrologist Archetype?
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it doesn't need to get more feats to keep working once it auto improves with the caster so the other archetype feats are made horizontally improve the horde.Maybe this template could make others alternatives to companions/summons in the future (I hope some of them not caster focused) to use to those dislike the currently companions system.
For me the Necrologist finally gives me what I have been looking for a summoning class. An interesting scalable summons as an ability like a focus spell.
It still uses the Summoner Style HitPoint Pool though. So not really what I would consider to be an animal companion.
Necrologist looks kind of cool.
Have you read the Necrologist Archetype?
...
it doesn't need to get more feats to keep working once it auto improves with the caster so the other archetype feats are made horizontally improve the horde.Maybe this template could make others alternatives to companions/summons in the future (I hope some of them not caster focused) to use to those dislike the currently companions system.
For me the Necrologist finally gives me what I have been looking for a summoning class. An interesting scalable summons as an ability like a focus spell.
It still uses the Summoner Style HitPoint Pool though. So not really what I would consider to be an animal companion.
I agree, but the point about shared HP it's based in what we have with currently pet/familiar and companion system is, or you will have them sharing your HP, or they will have a pretty lower HP or they will have a low defensive stats.
The point I saw into the Necrologist is that at cost of need to use a higher feat (level 6) and 2 actions (that not needed to be an activity) the designers considers that you can have an extra MAPless creature that fights with you without it being way weaker than you and use many feats to become vertically stronger.
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I think that Companions can be very powerful if they're used for mobility or for their support benefits. My gnome rogue, Bitty Blue, loves her dromaesaur, Egg, because he's not just an awesome dinosaur but also her special flanking buddy.
It's not about the damage that Egg does. It's about the damage that Egg enables from Bitty.
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Guardian at least makes str companions more appealing. Not perfect, but I've beat that drum for 6 years so I guess I can wait for pf3e for a rebalancing of companions
The problem is that even being used only for mobility and support, they are very expensive in terms of feats. You can't simply abandon the feat investment, or they will simply will die too easy, specially against AoE.
If I want a fast mount, I would make a sprite mounted in a [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2631]Corgi[url] with Fast Movement at the cost of a lvl 1 ancestry feat. :P
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The problem is that even being used only for mobility and support, they are very expensive in terms of feats. You can't simply abandon the feat investment, or they will simply will die too easy, specially against AoE.
If I want a fast mount, I would make a sprite mounted in a [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2631]Corgi[url] with Fast Movement at the cost of a lvl 1 ancestry feat. :P
I had this build at one point. I made a sprite fighter with a corgi mount using a reach polearm (can't remember if it was a lance, I feel like I decided lance wasn't actually worth it). Because the corgi scales as a familiar, all its defensive abilities scaled just fine. And I used it to supply mobility to my character and required no additional investment to maintain its survivability (it's saves and AC are equal to yours).
I feel like animal companions need the same thing, for it's defensive abilities to scale automatically with just the base feat. And for offensive abilities to scale with additional feat selection.
That might be a great house rule to try out actually.
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It would also kind of fix how strength companions are a trap because of not increasing defenses.
Although it might make agile companion not competitive enough...although maybe it's balanced by not having to grow in size. Since the reach of attacks doesn't increase with the change in size from being Savage companion being a larger target that takes up more room might be balanced out against not having as much attack bonus (on non-finesse attacks).