Have your GM pick an existing avatar that closely fits with your deity's theme I suppose.
Hard to say. As a deity of chaos, I suppose you could even choose randomly. That could be fun.
Otherwise, I would recommend looking at other protean monitor gods.
That's a great idea, lastly,can I cast spells while in Avatar form?
Battle forms do not allow spellcasting, speaking, or most manipulate actions unless specifically stated otherwise in the battle form's spell description.
So no, you can't cast spells in avatar form. You can use your hands though, per its specific description.
You can find the rules for battle forms here, under the Polymorph trait.
No, the rule cited above from Ravingdork says
"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells"
Unless the ability says you can cast spells while in that form, you can't.
You can't even speak in Avatar form because the ability doesn't say you can.
Kelseus is correct.
Oh jeez, that spell is looking horrible now
Most polymorph battle form spells give martial level stats for attack and damage.
The intent of nerfing their spellcasting into nonexistence is so that the game rules don't create a loophole allowing a super-gish - a character that has full martial stats and full spellcasting stats. The battle form spells allow a spellcaster to almost fully switch over to a martial role (they are often still lacking a bit in the HP department), but they fully give up their spellcasting to do it.
I just noticed the spell reads "You have hands in this battle form and can take manipulate actions" would this also mean I can cast all spells?
It means you can perform these actions that are not allowed in other battle forms.
As mentioned, battle forms are intentionally prohibited from casting spells (or using kineticist impulses). However, I believe that a caster can sustain existing spells while in battle form since the Sustain action has just the Concentrate trait.
I also believe a summoner with an eidolon that can cast spells (via Magical Understudy, Magical Adept, and Magical Master) can be a partial workaround to this restriction.
With a few exceptions (like polymorph spells) ongoing spells also continue to function. For example, a wizard could buff themselves with mystic armor, heroism, and invisibility (4th) prior to turning into a fearsome, invisible dragon.
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It's not that bad. You become Huge, so you have reach of 15 or better. The forms also give big mobility boost. Either just straight speed boost, or a very fast fly or other speed. Sometimes both.
Lowest level you can get the spell is 19. So your AC with the spell is 44. As a cloistered cleric, you AC is at best 41 (10 + 19 + 4 (expert) + 5 dex + 3 armor rune). A warpriest with heavy armor proficiency has a 42 (Armor +5, dex +1). So a boost to your AC by 2-3. A level 19 creature with high attack is rolling a +36, so they hit you on an 8, but that is better than hitting on a 5.
Attack modifier is +33. Again a cloistered cleric would at best have a +31 (19 + 4 expert + 5 dex + 3 weapon rune). So a +2 boost. Although, I think it is much more likely that you would not have a +3 weapon. A level 19 creature with high AC has a 45, so you hit on a 12 or better, and that is before flanking and any other debuffs. Your warpriest would be at +33.
It gives you a +35 in Athletics. If you have a +5 in strength, legendary in Athletics, and a +3 item bonus to athletics you are at a + 35 (19 + 8 + 5 + 3). Again more likely you are closer to a 26 (19 + 2 trained + 4 str + 1 item). So a big boost there.
Finally, the attacks do about 6d10+3. This averages to 36 damage per hit. A greater striking weapon with two damage runes is doing 2d6 + 3d10 + 7, or an average of 28, or 29 for the warpriest. This is on the high end, as you likely don't have both a +5 Str and +5 Dex, or a +3 greater striking weapon as a cloistered cleric.
All in all it is a pretty decent boost to all your martial abilities, even for your warpriest. Also, these are untyped bonuses, so it will stack with status bonuses from other spells.
Are you as good as a fighter, no. Do you need to be, also no.
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In response to that last sentence, I would sure hope so in my "Avatar" form which only lasts a short while that I would at a minimum be able to match a Fighter. This is a slap in the face of all Deities.
That is overly dramatic. It is "only" a spell, not a real deity assuming an avatar.
It would be slap in the face of all martial characters if spellcasters could be better at being a martial, even if only for a minute (which is usually a whole combat).We have been there with D&D 3.x/Pathfinder 1e, clerics with persistent divine might/power/etc. And even D&D5 still has summons more stronger than a fighter of the same level, it's just bad design.
If "I temporarily become a pseudo-martial" isn't your thing, then yeah, battle forms aren't for you. You're calling on divine power to make up for a lifetime of dedicated training. Don't forget, the Fighter is literally a legendary warrior- their class fantasy is valid too.
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In response to that last sentence, I would sure hope so in my "Avatar" form which only lasts a short while that I would at a minimum be able to match a Fighter. This is a slap in the face of all Deities. Perhaps a name change would be appropriate for this spell.
This spell gives you the same to hit bonus as any non-fighter martial, without needing to invest anything but a single spellslot. So my cloistered cleric with a 10 strength and 16 dex and a +1 striking staff gets to spend one combat hitting as hard as the Rogue or Ranger who have maxed their attack ability score and dumped every spare copper into buying the best weapon the can.
For a whole combat that same cleric can grapple or trip as well as any martial with max strength, who used one of their two legendary skills on athletics, but with zero investment.
Also, once the spell is gone you still get to keep the other 9 ranks of spells you prepared that day.
Miss me with the whole "why can't I win the game with this spell" argument.
Yeah, we had CODzilla in 3.5.
Paizo/Pathfinder has attempted to deliberately make that not possible.
No one (intentionally) get's to eat the Fighter's lunch.
Think about it this way, for the price of one spell slot you get to become almost as good as a fighter at most anything the fighter would care about for 1 minute.
Imagine if the fighter got a feat that allowed him once per day to have the spell casting of a 18th level cleric for 1 minute. That on it's own would be pretty bonkers right? But what if it had 0 restriction or cost beyond the price of one feat? Insanity.
Now consider that the cleric gets to do this by spending 1 spell slot, it doesn't even cost a feat. They can decide on a daily basis whether they want to prepare the spell. There needs to be some sort of balance against that power.
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In response to that last sentence, I would sure hope so in my "Avatar" form which only lasts a short while that I would at a minimum be able to match a Fighter.
They don't come close to that. Hell, Untamed Druid doesn't even come close to that. My wife played one in Ruby Phoenix and was really disappointed in how not actually that impressive Nature Incarnate is. It sounds much cooler than the results. Untamed Form even has a built in +2 bonus to the attack roll to try and help, but Druids can almost never qualify for it with on-level forms even if you absolutely max STR and get +3 handwraps. (Ironically it's easy for a Fighter multiclassing Druid to get and they get it on top of Fighter proficiency. The forms themselves lag behind but a Fighter that uses Untamed Form has a WAY higher attack modifier than a Druid using Untamed Form does, and that just feels bad.)
Battle forms in general suffer from being "you're almost as good at being a martial but the gap is noticeable", and when it's something like a level 10 spell that could be used to much more devastating effect with some other spell, it just feels lousy. I've GM'd 3 games that went to level 20 and the only person that ever bothered to use these things was disappointed in it and has only played martial characters since.
I get why that's the case: this got really out of hand in past editions. But it feels like they overcorrected with how high the cost to use it is and how many things it shuts down while its active. Doing that and feeling like a C-tier martial is not at all satisfying.
Honestly, I feel like the use case for Avatar and Nature Incarnate is not to be comparable to or replace the fighter. It's really to suddenly flex into a melee role when you have a weird situation that requires it and the fighter can't engage with the issue.
I would also point out that martial multiclassing into spell casters can't get these 10th level polymoprh spells (although they can get other polymorph spells).
Honestly, I feel like the use case for Avatar and Nature Incarnate is not to be comparable to or replace the fighter. It's really to suddenly flex into a melee role when you have a weird situation that requires it and the fighter can't engage with the issue.
It's not, if you're a caster and just casting it. And that's fine. Random Cloistered Cleric probably shouldn't have "transform into Fighter" spell. The trouble is that what you can do is pretty underwhelming in general and against any enemy big enough to be worth using a 10th level spell slot on, Avatar will not feel effective.
Untamed Druid feels even worse since you can invest in max STR, +3 handwraps, take all the feats, the whole nine yards... you're still a crummy martial. Forget about comparable to a Fighter, you're not really keeping up with anyone. That's a substantial investment that doesn't really get you much. Neither of these abilities really deliver on the fantasy.
I would also point out that martial multiclassing into spell casters can't get these 10th level polymoprh spells (although they can get other polymorph spells).
The really goofy case is Fighter taking Druid Archetype and getting Untamed Form. They can only get 5th rank forms, so their damage/AC/etc doesn't scale... but they will have better attack rolls than a Druid using those same forms, or even using max rank forms at the same time.
Unlike a Druid, it's trivially easy for a Fighter to beat the form's attack modifier, so they can use their own (which is better than the Druid). Untamed gives them an extra +2 if they do that, so they can easily outpace a Druid doing the "Druid's thing" in terms of actually landing attacks, which is one of the areas that Druid forms struggle at higher level in my experience as a GM.
Its not like you see Fighters doing this very often, but it's an absurd situation that a Fighter using a 5th rank Untamed Form is going to have a significantly better attack roll than a Druid using a 10th rank Untamed Form no matter what the Druid does. And the knockoff effect of how constrained it is even for a Druid that is fully specced into this is why it doesn't feel good in play.
ts not like you see Fighters doing this very often, but it's an absurd situation that a Fighter using a 5th rank Untamed Form is going to have a significantly better attack roll than a Druid using a 10th rank Untamed Form no matter what the Druid does. And the knockoff effect of how constrained it is even for a Druid that is fully specced into this is why it doesn't feel good in play.
I don't think it's absurd.
The fighter's whole thing is hitting things better than anyone else. So to me, it makes sense that he can do that better than anyone. Even when polymoprhed.
And the thing you're forgetting about is that the fighter while transformed has their damage set by the form they're in. At high levels, that's going to be less than using a weapon with the highest runes.
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In response to that last sentence, I would sure hope so in my "Avatar" form which only lasts a short while that I would at a minimum be able to match a Fighter.They don't come close to that. Hell, Untamed Druid doesn't even come close to that. My wife played one in Ruby Phoenix and was really disappointed in how not actually that impressive Nature Incarnate is. It sounds much cooler than the results. Untamed Form even has a built in +2 bonus to the attack roll to try and help, but Druids can almost never qualify for it with on-level forms even if you absolutely max STR and get +3 handwraps. (Ironically it's easy for a Fighter multiclassing Druid to get and they get it on top of Fighter proficiency. The forms themselves lag behind but a Fighter that uses Untamed Form has a WAY higher attack modifier than a Druid using Untamed Form does, and that just feels bad.)
Battle forms in general suffer from being "you're almost as good at being a martial but the gap is noticeable", and when it's something like a level 10 spell that could be used to much more devastating effect with some other spell, it just feels lousy. I've GM'd 3 games that went to level 20 and the only person that ever bothered to use these things was disappointed in it and has only played martial characters since.
I get why that's the case: this got really out of hand in past editions. But it feels like they overcorrected with how high the cost to use it is and how many things it shuts down while its active. Doing that and feeling like a C-tier martial is not at all satisfying.
Precisely the designers badly over estimated the strength of these spells. Very few clerics/druids can use them effectively. They match up to a basic strike with a typical runed up weapon. They just arent as strong as martials who have 20 levels of class features and feats improving on a basic strike - who almost all are doing multiples of a basic strike in effectiveness. Typically the casters gain some utility powers and very minor combat benefit. All of which can be gained through spells and items anyway without having to give up on your primary class benefit of being able to cast spells. Unless you are really going to dedicate your class build to these effects, and not even then for most, these options are a trap. Of course it depends on how your GM reads a few rules as well.
None of the animal form attacks are in a weapon group, so until you hit level 13, the fighter's proficiency with the animal form attacks is only Expert. Level 10 fighter in 5th rank animal form has a + 23 to hit (10 + 4 + 5 str + 2 rune + 2 status). But they don't benefit from any spell buffs. No Bardic Song, no Martial's Stance, no Bless or Heroism, nada.
A fighter just swinging with their fists who takes brawling weapon group also has a +23, but they can also be buffed.
At the same time, their AC drops from 31 (10 + 10 + 4 expert + 6 armor/dex + 1 item) to 28. They also can't use shields.
Can a fighter hit better than a Druid in animal form? Yes. But they are actually worse then just being a fighter.
Our Druid, casting rank 5 Plant Form or Elemental Form get a +19 or +21 to hit, have a 29 AC and do 2d10+9 instead of 2d8+7 damage.
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Honestly, I feel like the use case for Avatar and Nature Incarnate is not to be comparable to or replace the fighter. It's really to suddenly flex into a melee role when you have a weird situation that requires it and the fighter can't engage with the issue.
Sort of. It is just that this is your one 10th rank spell which you can use to be a terrible martial while giving up on all your other abilities for a few rounds. It can theoretically make sense as a high level character who hasn't invested in any other martial ability. But what is that situation where you aren't better in your normal form with all your magic? It is a contrived situation. It costs you 2 actions even to get into the form. 99% of the time you are going to be better off with another 10th rank spell instead. Your simple untransformed strike plus a 2 action spell is going to be a far better choice.
Honestly, I feel like the use case for Avatar and Nature Incarnate is not to be comparable to or replace the fighter. It's really to suddenly flex into a melee role when you have a weird situation that requires it and the fighter can't engage with the issue.Sort of. It is just that this is your one 10th rank spell which you can use to be a terrible martial while giving up on all your other abilities for a few rounds. It can theoretically make sense as a high level character who hasn't invested in any other martial ability. But what is that situation where you aren't better in your normal form with all your magic? It is a contrived situation. It costs you 2 actions even to get into the form. 99% of the time you are going to be better off with another 10th rank spell instead. Your simple untransformed strike plus a 2 action spell is going to be a far better choice.
I do actually agree with you, that these polymorph spells are not something I would expect a caster to regularly prepare once they have access. To be honest, when the character is with their party I wouldn't expect them to use it ever. Let the martial character(s) in the party do their role. However, there is probably some (uncommon) situation where it does make sense and is a nice option to have. Although I admit, any that I can thing of right now are kind of contrived.
But to me, the answer there isn't that the form needs a high attack bonus or even more damage with the strike. The forms need to grant some special abilities/attacks. Cause honestly that's where things are lacking. Martial characters spent 18+ levels acquiring feats that let them do special things with their attacks. Casters don't have any of those, so they only have the basic attacks. These basic attacks are on par with martial basic attacks, but I will admit that at this level no martial is making a basic no frills attack. Now the forms do have some special attacks that come with them, but they probably needed a few more options. Although especially with the Avatar spell (because of how many deities there are) I can see where it would be a challenge (with word count) to give every form 5 different abilities.
Honestly, I feel like the use case for Avatar and Nature Incarnate is not to be comparable to or replace the fighter. It's really to suddenly flex into a melee role when you have a weird situation that requires it and the fighter can't engage with the issue.Sort of. It is just that this is your one 10th rank spell which you can use to be a terrible martial while giving up on all your other abilities for a few rounds. It can theoretically make sense as a high level character who hasn't invested in any other martial ability. But what is that situation where you aren't better in your normal form with all your magic? It is a contrived situation. It costs you 2 actions even to get into the form. 99% of the time you are going to be better off with another 10th rank spell instead. Your simple untransformed strike plus a 2 action spell is going to be a far better choice.
That's the core problem, yeah: You're using what is effectively your top ability and most of a round (a 10th level spell or in the case of Untamed Druid a 20th level feat) to... shut off all your best abilities. What you get out of it is to be a C-tier martial for a while.
There's very few situations where doing this will feel effective, and those situations don't tend to be serious enough to warrant using a limited resource like a 10th level spell at all because something far less expensive can probably solve it.
What you get out of them just isn't worth the opportunity cost. I hardly ever see anyone even take Avatar as a spell option. One Oracle in Ruby Phoenix had it, but never cast it because in any fight where they were being pressed enough to use that slot, they needed something more effective. (And the already mentioned Druid who was very excited to get it and then very disappointed in how it actually performed.)
At the end of the day, my perspective is that this spell can't allow you to outperform the dedicated martial fighter in (especially or specifically in terms of numbers). But it should have more special abilities, or even just granting of high level martial feats that the forms can use.