It is difficult as a really low AC means you will take a lot more damage from more critical hits.
A few options:
1) Get into armour via an archetype like Sentinel or Rogue, or a general feat like Armor Proficiency. At level one you can still sometimes even be better off in armour than out of it even if you are unproficient. Think about a mount to improve your movement rate longer term. If you don't get heavy armour you will want to pick up some dex eventually.
2) Use spells that protect you regardless of AC. Things that create concealment ( eg obscuring mist) or invisibility. This helps but you will still be exposed a lot.
3) Try a battle form spell or meld into your Eidolon for a combat option. EG multiclass Druid and pick up wild shape or multiclass Summoner and take meld into Eidolon. Useful when you are forced to fight, but then you can't cast any new spells so the draw back is steep.
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I like Gortle's second option. Invest in stealth and deception and use it and magic to make enemies lose track of you.
Start fights by avoiding notice when possible.
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Direct advice:
Drakeheart mutagens can help with AC, but it's a bit powergamey, and you're still under your target without DEX. Heavy armor is the better bet, like Gortle said. You'll probably also end up investing in defensive spells like mirror image.
Trying to snag campaign-relevant lores will probably serve you best for RK, assuming your GM gives the DC reductions for unspecific and specific lores. That can free you from needing as much INT. The additional lore skill feat is bonkers strong when you can grab lores you know will come up often.
Consider archetyping to help cover bases. Gortle pointed to Sentinel and Rogue for armor; another option could be grabbing Oracle, Whispers of Weakness, and the knowledge domain focus spell that lets you spend your reaction to roll your RK with advantage.
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Indirect advice:
I don't like giving this kind of answer. But at bottom, trying to do this with Sorc is going to run you headlong into PF2E's niche protection. You should probably be playing a bard with the lore muse, a lore oracle, or maybe even a thaumaturge if this is the role you're getting forced into. Trying to play a Sorc here is fighting the game design, imo.
If your GM is willing to run with Free Archetype, you'll be in a lot less pain; double that if they're also willing to consider gradual ASI.
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Indirect advice:I don't like giving this kind of answer. But at bottom, trying to do this with Sorc is going to run you headlong into PF2E's niche protection. You should probably be playing a bard with the lore muse, a lore oracle, or maybe even a thaumaturge if this is the role you're getting forced into. Trying to play a Sorc here is fighting the game design, imo.
Depending on why you wanted to play the sorcerer in the first place another class that might work better than the sorcerer would be the Animist. Lots of flexibility and considerably more survivability than a sorcerer. Something like wis +4, cha and int +2, dex and con +1, some race like 1/2 ling or gnome dumping Str.
You pick the spirits to give you sort of what you were hoping to get from the sorcerer. Won't be perfect but might be your least bad option
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Sacrifice a lot of those int boosts and pick up Additional Lore feats for the things you're supposed to be knowledgeable about, and don't be shy about retraining if necessary. The specific lore DC reduction and auto scaling proficiency will massively outweigh int bonus.
Put those points into dex, because without heavy armor and bulwark, not only is your AC garbo, your reflex saves are in the shitter as well.
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I'm basically being relied on to be the party face and the party knowledge bot.
Why are you being relied upon to fill all of those roles? What is the rest of your adventuring party comprised of? And why can they not make some adjustments to take on some of this burden as well?
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Ah. So you aren't supposed to tell them things about how to play or what actions to take, but they can require you to play an arcane caster.
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It seems like the GM probably should have had that convo with everyone before they made their characters if arcane was that important to their campaign.
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It may also be that the words of the Warpriest player are not directed at the Sorcerer player directly. Perhaps they are giving permission to that player to play in a less strictly optimal manner. Acknowledging that the party may be missing some of the magical tradition and Recall Knowledge skill coverage as a result, but that this would be acceptable.
With that much melee, plus the desire to cover knowledge & face skills, Bard (as advised earlier) stands out, plus has more resilience.
Otherwise, yeah, the Champion's solid and has the spare stat to cover face skills (if the Swashbuckler is avoiding Cha). Because yeah, I agree you do need a martial that can stand firm, though note that various Swashbuckler builds can achieve this, as can some Warpriests though I wouldn't rely on this one. In fact, I'd check in with the GM on the campaign difficulty level to see if it meshes with this player's easygoing style.
The other option is staying out of combat until you can turn the tables. That won't work if an obvious incursion force, but if you look like the cook, local who knows the area, or other innocuous person you could lay low the first few rounds. This also won't help in an AP or tougher campaign, in which case you're kind of forced to play a bard.
What about a sparkling targe magus with a kopesh(has Trip) and a shield.
Go Athletics and Arcana as main skills.
This kind of blends the melee anchor with a the arcane knowledge feel.
WIth a rogue and swashbuckler there you dont have to focus on damage but as a magus your still doing some.
Get the champion archtype to throw in champ reaction too while your at it.
A fighter looks like the right choice.
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I would also see a Thaumaturge as the optimum for "party face" AND "knowledge bot", even more than the lore bard. Diverse Lore covers the knowledge while Scroll Thaumaturgy would leave backup casting on the table.
I played one with Tome, the flexible skills were quite valuable when handling situations not covered by the party.
On the other hand, you have a rogue in the party, a class that struggles not to cover any skills.
I love me a good bard, but Bardic Lore is leagues behind Diverse Lore, mainly due to intelligence not being a good investment otherwise and Diverse Lore keying of charisma and advancing much faster.
Main question though: Would you enjoy playing that character?
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Ah. So you aren't supposed to tell them things about how to play or what actions to take, but they can require you to play an arcane caster.Let me clear: the DM and a player know each other, but the other three people (including the warpriest) are all strangers to everyone.
Only the warpriest's player had that weird reaction.
And the DM did not require it, I said "wanted" above for a reason. I said I'd fill the last slot with whatever the party needed.
It may also be that the words of the Warpriest player are not directed at the Sorcerer player directly.It was definitely directed at me after I made the post below. But again, he's the only one who had the weird reaction (and the GM thought it was a weird reaction too)...but he's also the only other caster or character with good mental stats, basically.
"So it sounds like the party will be...
Warpriest (cleric with melee capability)
Swashbuckler (flashy nimble melee combatant dancing around)
Gladiator Rogue (flashy nimble melee combatant dancing around)Based on this I see four things I think would work well, split into two different roles...
Melee Anchor
Although we already have three melee, none seem really suited for being able to just stand there and go toe to toe with enemies and some will want to dart in and out of melee. So here are two options:
1, Fighter with either a Greatsword or Halberd (haven't decided yet). Offense focused with the ability to do things like make enemies off-guard (for the rogue sneak attacking), frightened, and/or prone. Basically just turn the group into a melee blender.
2, Champion with Longsword and Shield. Defensive focused with the ability to tank/block hits and punish enemies who attack someone else (Champion's reaction). Basically more focused on drawing aggro from enemies and protecting the more fragile members, but less damage and lacking the debuffs of the Fighter.
Ranged Support
We could also say we have a lot of melee power but...
Just a guess, but I feel the Warpriest's player has been burnt in the past when playing with overoptimizing jerks who displayed an analytical approach similar to the one in your post.
Hence their reaction because they wanted to make it clear from the get go what they would not tolerate.
Best IMO to clarify the misunderstanding of intents before the game begins. With the help of the GM if they can be an adequate third-party help in this clarification.
I'm basically being relied on to be the party face and the party knowledge bot.
Combat optimally, I'd start with 10 str/14 dex/14 con/10 int/12 wis/18 cha I believe.
But in this case I'm planning on starting with 10 str/10 dex/12 con/14 int/14 wis/18 cha.
Boosts are another problem. Normally at level 10 I'd have something like 10 str/18 dex/18 con/10 wis/16 wis/20 cha. But in this case it'd be 10 str/10 dex/16 con/18 int/18 wis/20 cha.
So now I'm 4 AC behind optimal and still a con modifier as well.
And obviously if I bump up dex instead I'm left with lower HP.
The campaign will end in the early teens I believe so there's no "catching up" later on by leaving int and wis at 18 and bumping dex and con more at that point.
Obviously you have things like staying back and general basic caster tactics, but any other thoughts on trying to survive in this scenario?
I would consider making your Con a 10, your Dex a 14, and your Int a 12. You can always boost your Intelligence as needed, and if you are able to play an ancestry with a Strength flaw so you can get more Con/Int/Dex, definitely consider it. Strength is legit a dump stat for you. Your best asset should be to avoid attacks, not soak up attacks; that is the Barbarian/Kineticists schtick. You will have more raw survivability with higher AC than a few more HP. Saving just one hit/crit alone is far more likely to keep you up than the one or two HP you get from the added Constitution. Fortitude saves are going to hurt, but it's not the end of the world; certain options can be taken to help with this sort of thing.
Spells like Mystic Armor can be helpful starting out, but unless you pick up Armor Proficiency (from Rogue or Sentinel, or the general feat), you will most almost always be behind except for maybe at max level.
Rogue can already do all that's being asked of you, but a Thaum leaning into scrolls or picking up Bard/ sorcerer casting can do that. So can a summoner with book Thaum/rogue for more skills. Summoner can get away better then any other caster with lowering dex/AC since your bringing extra frontline support.
Heavy armor is a path to fix the Dex issue. So long as you don't have any visual issues with a nerd in metal bubble suit to keep safe.
Then as summoner can go all in on con, int, cha. Be face, have arcane spells, survive, support front line, pick up knowledges with Thaum and or rogue. Give your Eidolon spells and battle medicine (so long as GM allows them to use heal kit) and you have some good martial support options. Summoner also can double dip on knowledge checks since your Eidolon has the same skills you do.
Note, a bard is still a good "lore" class (especially with the Bardic Lore, Assured Knowledge, Know-It-All, and possibly True Hypercognition). Also, bard automatically gains proficiency in light armor and the occult list is at least as good as the arcane list; if the arcane list is a "must have" for the campaign, then taking the multiclass sorcerer or wizard archetype and the Basic and Expert Spellcasting feats can give you additional spell slots for arcane spells.
You may want to consider Dex +2, Int +3, and Cha +3 (or +4, if you can spare the increase from somewhere else) to start with at 1st level. To help with the recall knowledge checks, the elf ancestry and the Ancestral Longevity, Expert Longevity, and Universal Longevity ancestry feats will let you switch out a skill (probably a type of Lore, so you don't have to focus as much on Wis) based on what is needed. Use Ancestral Longevity to select an appropriate Lore (Undead Lore, [terrain] Lore, etc.) during the character's daily preparations instead of taking Nature, Religion, or Survival (with Int +3, the check modifier will be higher than with Int +2 and Wis +2).
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I'm basically being relied on to be the party face and the party knowledge bot.
Combat optimally, I'd start with 10 str/14 dex/14 con/10 int/12 wis/18 cha I believe.
But in this case I'm planning on starting with 10 str/10 dex/12 con/14 int/14 wis/18 cha.
Since the group put that huge demand on you, you should feel no hesitancy when it comes to using the rules to your advantage.
Go for Imperial Sorcerer and take the Tap into Blood feat. Then use Arcana instead of whatever skill you want to Recall Knowledge with. You're facing a bunch of Zombies? Use Arcana instead of Zombie Lore. Investigating a murder in Absalom? Use Arcana instead of Absalom Crime Lore.
Basically, by utilizing Arcana instead of a specific Lore skill, you drop the DC of whatever you Recall Knowledge on by 5. The Zombies might have needed a Religion DC 20, but with Arcana (Zombie Lore) it's just DC 15. This is equivalent to a +5 bonus to the Arcana skill for Recall Knowledge. You're still limited by triggering bloodmagic first, so you'll want to have enough focus points to use the skill.
Once you hit level 6 you could also use the weird Extend Blood Magic spell, that should trigger bloodmagic on its own and extend it (though the spell is badly written and basically up to GM fiat), allowing you to Recall Knowledge up to 5 times for just 1 focus point (& 5 Tap into Blood actions, so probably good out of combat only). And while you're benefitting from bloodmagic, you would also get a +1 status bonus to either AC or saves from the Imperial bloodline, for extra defenses.
If you use that, then there's no need to raise your Intelligence sky high, a +1 or +2 should suffice - a Sprite or Gnome would be a good ancestry here. Investing in bonuses to Arcana would make this even better, so ask the Warpriest to put Heroism on you if he wants to know something, because you have unfortunately forgotten everything recently.
That should give you a very good stat spread -- STR-1 | DEX+2 | CON+2 | INT+1 | WIS+2 | CHA+4 -- with an effective INT bonus to Recall Knowledge equal to +6. Feel free to move 1 point WIS or CON towards INT. If that has you worried about too low defenses, the Cleric should also cast Dancing Shield on a Fortress Shield to give you +3 circumstance AC and have spells like Martyr's Intervention at the ready.
Instead of Sprite or Gnome, you could also go for an Elf with Ageless Patience, so you can spend 2 actions on Tap into Blood to get that +2 circumstance bonus to the Recall Knowledge check.
tl;dr
Stacking bonuses to Arcana for Recall Knowledge with Tap into Blood is more useful than to trash your entire stat build.
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I think you shouldn't try to do the job of 2-3 PCs and also hold yourself to the standard that you'll do it excellently.
If some of the players want to play weak characters, or if some players absolutely don't want to coordinate builds, the party is going to be weaker. At that point either the campaign is going to be really hard mode, or the GM decides to make it easier.
Which can be fine! The default difficulty of the game is just a default, it's not sacred. Some people like the idea of "we took the adventure as-is and beat it", other people don't find that important. They care more about being able to play the character they wanted to play. So then the adventure should be made easier, so that there's less pressure to play an optimal character choice.
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That said, for yourself: if I were you I'd talk with the GM about a bit more drastic rebuilding, like shuffling around some ability choice decisions. You can leave the core idea of the character the same (human, sorcerer, ..) while changing the numbers a bit to work out better.
In particular, I wouldn't wait until level 7-8 to get your armor class right. You're going to have a bad time until then.
Personally I'm a big fan of just taking a decent Dexterity and getting light armor proficiency. Even as a backline caster you're likely to make some reflex saves against area attacks, so Dex is good to have anyway, and it helps with some skills too.
Another option might be to go dragonblooded heritage, and take the scaly hide feat at level 1, and move to the wings feats so that by level 9 you'll be able to fly all the time. That would help you stay out of melee more, because you can't rely on your teammates to protect you all that well.
In Abomination Vaults, you are going to face a lot of cramped combats. Skipping AC isn't going to work. I don't recommend trying. You'll have much more fun with on par AC. Personally, I dump con a lot. You can get by without a lot of hp (False Life lasts 8 hours, 12gp on a scroll). You can't get by without AC in AV.
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You say that you have played the character as a sorcerer once already. I would like to hear your report on that. Before discussing possible rebuilds of your character:
Did you enjoy playing your current character, as built?
Were there a lot of Recall Knowledges required?
Was there a lot of "Face Person talking to other sentient" activities? (Side question, do you/will you need Multilingual to get more languages?)
Was there any emphasis on Arcana, as the GM seemed to be interested in this?
Does the Warpriest have Nature and/or Religion?
Do the other two players have _any_ of Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion?
Can you ask the GM/other PCs what skills they have? If they rant, tell them "the GM asked me to fill in some of the gaps in the party, so please help me figure out where the gaps are."
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As a side note, there's nothing to stop you from taking in a steel shield. It takes an action to raise, but with at least one 60' cantrip, you won't need to move around much.
I'm not convinced (nor does it seem most people are convinced) that situations like this allow you to use the lower Lore check. But I could absolutely use Arcana instead of Religion/Society/Nature/Occult.
As this thread shows most people are convinced that this is how the rule works, even if they personally would run it differently.
Wouldn't the opposite be true -- focus everything on Int because you're using it to recall knowledge on everything? If anything it could let me drop Wis in favor of more Dex or Con.
No. Failing a Will save is exponentially worse than failing a RK check.
And you can always get Dubious Knowledge to get information out of a failed RK check, but there's nothing to protect you from those failed Will saves.
Also race is set as human already, but he is Imperial bloodline.
So what? Rebuilding a character from scratch, because it doesn't work with your group's demands, is perfectly fine. If they force you to play a character you're no longer comfortable with, then you have some serious problems to address at your table.
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I agree. I think I'm going to pick up Sentinel at level 2 (free archetype) and Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 3. The campaign will end at level 12 so lacking Expert at level 13+ isn't a huge deal.
Even though it is not relevant for you here: The Armor Proficiency feat was remastered to grant Expert at lvl 13.
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Did you carry a shield? Was it helpfull to have one? Or would a shield have been helpfull if you had one? The later question is largely about "did you have an action to spare for raising your shield?"
I am emphasizing the shield here as it's a partial solution to your AC problems that you can apply _right now_. Not X levels later.
Also please remember the definition...
Bulwark: The armor covers you so completely that it provides benefits against some damaging effects. On Reflex saves to avoid a damaging effect, such as a _fireball_, you add a +3 modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier.
I am not certain that Bulwark applies against a Basic Reflex Save (and it certainly won't help you when you want to Grab an Edge). Frex: how does Bulwark help you save against a Grease spell?
I got the opposite impression from that thread, especially things like this post:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs4vf0v&page=2?Problems-with-Tap-Into-Blood# 67
That person voices its general issues with Lore skills, not on the applicability of using Arcana instead of a Lore skill.
"Using arcana to recall knowledge about a zombie is never using an applicable lore skill to RK on a zombie."
Yeah, but that part is obviously wrong, as you can see in how they continue to say:
"I do not even allow any of the broad lore skills (bardic/gossip/loremaster) to work in place of a specific lore either"
while paying no attention to the fact that broad lore skills work completely different than Tap into Blood. It's just one person's statement on how they use Lore skills.
The Tap into Blood feat has a unique way of using one skill instead of another skill, so any comparisons of Tap into Blood to other replacements without acknowledging that merely signal the fact that they haven't grasped what is actually written.
And the lack of factual rules references in such "arguments" is therefore only "supported" by tangential rhetoric about other things.
Personally, I make a huge difference between reading rules & how I feel about those rules. Many others do not; they let their emotions dictate what they read, not the text right in front of them.
The Tap into Blood feat has a unique way of using one skill instead of another skill, so any comparisons of Tap into Blood to other replacements without acknowledging that merely signal the fact that they haven't grasped what is actually written.How is using Arcana to make a recall knowledge check on Zombie Lore different from using Gossip Lore to make a recall knowledge check on Zombie Lore?
Personally, I make a huge difference between reading rules & how I feel about those rules. Many others do not; they let their emotions dictate what they read, not the text right in front of them.The Pathfinder 2 rulebook literally says
"Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is."
Actually if your allowing a specific lore to be selected for gossip lore then thats also gaming the system for lower DCs.
Heres why.when a player uses RK they ask a question and suggest an applicable skill. They dont decide which lore or which skill applies to the roll, but are given the ability to back out if the GM says its actually not going to be how the player imagined.
So theres that but mainly its this.
Gossip Lore allows RK on any "Topic", this bypasses the normal restriction RK has limiting the check to topics related to the skills the PC ends up needing to use for the topic should the player agree to continue with the RK after confirming that with the GM. The lore skill used in the case of Gossip Lore is Gossip Lore not any specific lore. It doesn't say to substitute it for any lore just that this lore can RK on any topic. It doesn't get the DC lowing benefit of a specific lore uless the GM feels the circumstances warrant it. And being general knowledge I would rarely give it the benefits of specific knowledge.
RAI - it also doesn't fit the spirit of the game design where skills like Gossip lore and Tap into Blood are not meant to simply beat out the investment in a specific lore.
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Balkolth, you can carry a shield, or use the the Shield cantrip. Using either counts as using the Raise Shield action. IE, you can use only one of these actions.
Using a steel shield requires you to buy one (relatively trivial), strap it onto your arm, and occupy your hand. It gives you +2 circumstance bonus to your AC.
The Shield cantrip only gives you +1 circumstance bonus to your AC. But it does allow you to Shield Block, even without the feat. After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can’t cast it again for 10 minutes.
Your hand is free for other uses.
Pick the option that works best for you, they do not stack.