| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now that I've played for a bit at 20th-level, I've made some startling observations regarding starting gear of high-level characters.
So if I make a 20th-level character, I start with 112,000gp using Lump Sum.
If I play through an adventure path from 1-20, I've noticed that I generally end up with WAY more than that.
What gives? Why is there such a HUGE discrepancy?
I tried building out my Agents of Edgewatch champion for use at other tables and, well, I couldn't really do it. He can't even afford a fraction of the gear he has in AoE. All the player characters in that campaign have WAY more gold at high levels than any of us know what to do with.
There are many items I consider critical for the character, and it's looking like I'll have to give up more than half of them to stay under the Lump Sum limit.
If you're a martial like my champion you generally need a fully kitted primary weapon, a backup (typically ranged) weapon with a few less options, a sturdy shield, and some good armor. Let's do the math on those basic items.
49,440 = major resiliency rune
62,130 = major striking rune (x2)
40,000 = supreme sturdy shield
24,000 = greater brilliant rune
20,560 = armor potency +3 rune
17,870 = weapon potency +3 rune (x2)
06,500 = greater [elemental] rune
04,300 = greater vitalizing rune
00,055 = returning rune
-------------------------------------
224,855 > More than twice what is available, if I did my math right*. And that's just for basic armor and weapons and nothing else!!!
What am I missing? Why on Golarion can I not have the best BASIC gear even at 20th-level!? If the game's math is dependent on you keeping up with your armor and weapons runes, and the limited starting funds doesn't even let you do that, how is anyone expected to ever succeed?
For my concept to work, I also need a ring of lies (850gp), a demilich eye gem with hidden mind (3,000gp), and a bunch of expendable scrolls.
Feels way too much like 1st-edition's Christmas tree, where you couldn't get any fun side items without sacrificing your core numerical strengths. Kind of feels bad, you know?
Lord help me if I opted to play a dual-wielder!
* I'm admittedly quite terrible at math, so please feel free to double check my work.
Adventure paths have always come overstuffed with treasure because of the likelihood that the PCs aren't going to find all of it. If the PCs are the sorts of people who are going to steal the furnishings and pry the gemstones out of the statues, they're going to end up extra wealthy in basically every adventure path in both PF1 and PF2.
A couple of things:
APs have to assume all the treasure items in them gets sold at half value or else the parties that don’t want any of it are under equipped, especially if they don’t find it all.
The wealth by level table breaks down quickly at the extreme end. Adventures at high level are going to throw extreme treasures at you very quickly. I don’t know of any adventures that start at level 20.
It would be bad if players generally felt like starting a new character at any given point in an AP, especially a 1 to 20 AP would have anywhere near as much treasure as the characters that have been playing it. Characters die, sure, but once they do the party should feel like it is at a new starting point that might require regrouping.
A level 20 starting character probably shouldn’t have a greater striking rune on 2 weapons. One die back is fine for a back up weapon, especially if the main weapon is getting the greater rune works.
Also, half the fun of APs is getting treasure tailored to the adventure, and making sure that treasure is worth holding on to is a lot easier when players are loaded and not feeling the need to peel up the tiles and sell the wall sconces
Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?
Well, you can't wield two weapons simultaneously if you're using a shield, and even if you weren't wielding a shield, a common ranged weapon (shortbow) requires both hands to attack with, meaning Doubling Rings aren't a valid option. Heck, it doesn't even work with thrown weapons because once the weapon leaves your hand, it loses the runes provided from the Doubling Rings.
Another thing:
Over the course of 20th level, the PCs as a party get 490k in treasure, so from the start of level 20 to the end, your character is pretty much doubling their wealth (AND APs are extra generous).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
-snip-
The problem is that a lot of this is when you are making a "fresh" character of that level, not that it is a character that has naturally progressed to that point, which are generally going to have more loot as a result. You also get even less overall if you go for the Lump Sum versus the staged item levels (which isn't really that bad, just a -1 to saves compared to "natural" Level 20 PCs, and maybe less circumstantial runes).
So, the progression for this is 1 19th level item, 2 18th level items, 1 17th level item, 2 16th level items, as well as 20,000 gold in raw currency.
We know a +3 Major Striking weapon is 19th level, and we know +3 Greater Resilient Armor is 18th, and that 17th is your Apex item (usually), meaning we have another 18th level item, as well as 2 16th level items to pick from, and 20,000 gold in raw currency.
Recreating this concept character, you can have the extra 18th level item be either the Indestructible Shield (Hardness 17, almost unlimited HP), or one of your high-end Runes (I think Greater Brilliant Energy is a Level 18 rune), since you can later pick up the Major Sturdy Shield as one of your 16th level items (same hardness at Indestructible, but just has limited HP).
Your two 16th level items can be whatever; for your back-up, a +3 Greater Striking would be acceptable, and maybe making your main weapon out of High Quality Silver or Cold Iron, depending on what your campaign is expected to commonly face (Devils, Werecreatures, and Vampires? Go Silver. Demons and Fey? Go Cold Iron).
From there, you have 20,000 gold to work with, meaning you can pick up both the Greater [Element] and Greater Vitalizing runes on your main weapon, leaving you with 9,000 gold for lesser items/other runes/consumables.
So, looking at the main build, you have:
+3 Major Striking main weapon with 3 powerful runes, worth 85,000 gold
+3 Greater Resilient armor (no runes though), worth 24,000 gold
+3 Greater Striking sub weapon, with a potential rune if needed, worth at least 10,000 gold
Apex Item for Strength (you forgot this in your initial calculations; kind of important, as you're concerned about meeting the 'baseline' for items), worth 15,000 gold
Major Sturdy Shield (or Indestructible Shield if you don't want your Greater Brilliant Energy rune), worth 13,750 (or 24,000 gold if you don't take the Brilliant Energy rune, but you're losing net gold if you do this)
And 9000 play-around gold.
Total that, and you get 156,750 gold in terms of items. Compared to Lump Sum, you are losing approximately 25% of your overall wealth, all so you can access Level 20 items (which, other than getting +1 to all saves, isn't worth the price).
Disregarding the Lump Sum, you are meeting a majority of your item demands, the only things you are majorly missing are +1 to All Saves, and a fully-functional back-up weapon (which, honestly, who cares at this point; it would make more sense to improve your existing options by either buying Armor runes, or other worn items, like Perception or Resistance items).
Another thing:
Over the course of 20th level, the PCs as a party get 490k in treasure, so from the start of level 20 to the end, your character is pretty much doubling their wealth (AND APs are extra generous).
Depends on the AP; from what I've played with Kingmaker so far, I've had to basically seriously amp the loot because of how stingy it gets sometimes, and that's not even considering that I'm running the game for 5 players instead of 4.
Everyone has already mentioned the generosity of most APs (Paizo has even mentioned it). The other thing is that the lump sum method generally gets you less wealth than the "items" method. If you take the items, you tend to come out ahead as long as you can find something you can use that fits within it.
The rules for handing out treasure as an adventure goes on also assume some of it is consumables and will disappear. If your party never uses consumables they will wind up ahead as well, whereas the starting wealth assumes you used some of yours up already.
Combine all that and the table for new characters at high level feels stingy, as you noticed. If I were a GM in that situation I'd average out what everyone else has and have a new player start closer to that.
Depends on the AP; from what I've played with Kingmaker so far, I've had to basically seriously amp the loot because of how stingy it gets sometimes, and that's not even considering that I'm running the game for 5 players instead of 4.Another thing:
Over the course of 20th level, the PCs as a party get 490k in treasure, so from the start of level 20 to the end, your character is pretty much doubling their wealth (AND APs are extra generous).
Kingmaker feels stingier to me too, though thats as a player. Maybe it assumes you'll use some downtime since there is comparatively tons of it available to earn income/craft cheaper stuff?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have players generate characters by making sure they hit the ABP table expectations, then throw a lump sum to buy toys and backups.
Kingmaker feels stingier to me too, though thats as a player. Maybe it assumes you'll use some downtime since there is comparatively tons of it available to earn income/craft cheaper stuff?Depends on the AP; from what I've played with Kingmaker so far, I've had to basically seriously amp the loot because of how stingy it gets sometimes, and that's not even considering that I'm running the game for 5 players instead of 4.Another thing:
Over the course of 20th level, the PCs as a party get 490k in treasure, so from the start of level 20 to the end, your character is pretty much doubling their wealth (AND APs are extra generous).
Spoilers aside, looking at the loot rooms and the "boss drops," as well as the "end of adventure" rewards, the most exciting things I've seen drop are +1 Striking weapons, with one of them actually having a neat aspect about them, and most of those rewards aren't even part of the main story.
It's entirely possible that it's done to offset a fair amount of frontal upload loot from the first book, getting tons of potions and higher-graded items but it's still relatively feelsbad in the second and third book from what I've read, and I only really have done like two or three optional content areas (because honestly, each time I implement them, it throws off the expected leveling trajectory, so it feels like the players don't "progress" as a group if they do the optional content); the rest has been main storyline only.
I suppose it is also possible that the players can make their Kingdom function as their Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe, but since most other games/APs don't do this to their players (yes, I know that's part of the charm of the AP, still), I can also imagine some players/PCs sitting there being all like "How do I get magic items besides going out and killing the monster of the week and hoping it drops an item for me," and the answer of "Build it and it will come" won't cross their minds, or, if they use the actual Kingdom Building rules, knows it will be a difficult sell to reach the point of having the Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe Kingdom.
I noticed the treasure was fairly light too by 20. Half the party ended without maxed out armor and/or weapons. It was extremely costly to obtain weapons and armor at max level.
Bracers of armor were absolutely insanely priced at the max level.
Very hard to max out gear at the top levels from 18 to 20.
It's kind of ironic that Level 20 characters can't afford or reasonably acquire Level 20 items, even though the math assumes Level 20 characters will have (certain) Level 20 items.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is one of the reasons why I think ABP is better to use in higher level campaigns, or at least use it as a baseline for the stuff players should have and give them for free even if they wouldn't be able to afford it.
This is one of the reasons why I think ABP is better to use in higher level campaigns, or at least use it as a baseline for the stuff players should have and give them for free even if they wouldn't be able to afford it.
Came here to say that. Adopt ABP, the players won't feel the delayed difference when leveling, and give them the full lump sum for magic stuff. Win, Win, Win.
The Reddit version of this thread really exploded, along with loads of developer feedback.
Adventure paths have always come overstuffed with treasure because of the likelihood that the PCs aren't going to find all of it. If the PCs are the sorts of people who are going to steal the furnishings and pry the gemstones out of the statues, they're going to end up extra wealthy in basically every adventure path in both PF1 and PF2.
All we ever did was make a Seek checks in each room.
Seems to me like that is the bare minimum of what adventure groups would be doing.
Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?
Why would most players think to do otherwise when doubling rings, until recently, only existed in a splat book?
In my case, I was trying to emulate an existing character (or rather, reset it to a "table neutral" state), and I never came across doubling rings during the adventure. Also,
it simply didn't occur to me.
We know a +3 Major Striking weapon is 19th level, and we know +3 Greater Resilient Armor is 18th, and that 17th is your Apex item (usually), meaning we have another 18th level item, as well as 2 16th level items to pick from, and 20,000 gold in raw currency.
Last I checked a +3 weapon potency rune, a major striking rune, a +3 armor potency rune, and a greater resilient rune were four items, not two.
It's one of the reasons why our table always went for lump sum (that along with more minute control over what you got).
Now if you could treat a +3 major striking greater brilliant greater flaming greater vitalizing weapon as a single level 19 item, then maybe we would have considered the traditional method for our table.
Total that, and you get 156,750 gold in terms of items. Compared to Lump Sum, you are losing approximately 25% of your overall wealth, all so you can access Level 20 items (which, other than getting +1 to all saves, isn't worth the price).
Yeah, I made a mistake there. Lump Sum rules don't ever actually allow level 20 items in the first place, so that shouldn't even have been on the list.
It's kind of ironic that Level 20 characters can't afford or reasonably acquire Level 20 items, even though the math assumes Level 20 characters will have (certain) Level 20 items.
I roleplay to ESCAPE the oppressive pressure of reality's catch22 financial hardships! I don't need to be facing that kind trap in my games as well!
Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.
Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.
Interesting.
So could my champion sorcerer get, say, a +3 major striking staff of arcane might and still have it treated as a single item?
Last I checked a +3 weapon potency rune, a major striking rune, a +3 armor potency rune, and a greater resilient rune were four items, not two.
In the item tables, they treat fundamental runes as part of the same base item; only additional property runes and special material items count separately on the item table, so based on that logic and comparison, that is how I got the equipment I listed.
I might have made a mistake in regards to gold options and cost, but that was because there were a couple ways you could accomplish the same thing while having their own inherent differences.
Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.Interesting.
So could my champion sorcerer get, say, a +3 major striking staff of arcane might and still have it treated as a single item?
Staff of Arcane Might is a special item, meaning you would have to pay for the increased fundamental runes separately. This rule only applies to basic equipment, like Longswords and Full Plate.
This is one of the reasons why I think ABP is better to use in higher level campaigns, or at least use it as a baseline for the stuff players should have and give them for free even if they wouldn't be able to afford it.Came here to say that. Adopt ABP, the players won't feel the delayed difference when leveling, and give them the full lump sum for magic stuff. Win, Win, Win.
Agree with this; my only complaint is lower level rewards are less impactful for the PCs, so implementing "Lesser" elemental runes in place of +1/Striking weapons wouldn't be a bad idea.
For balance purposes, they are a Level 2 rune that deals 1 [Element] damage, with their reduced respective critical benefits (Save DCs and damage scaled appropriately), similar to a lot of the specialty published low level items.
It is good to see James Jacobs repeat all of the points I made above. Lump sum is a bad way to replicate a character pulled from an adventure path, especially one who already completed the AP/has been adventuring at 20th level.
Also, lump sum does a terrible job of handling back up weapons/probably isn't great for very high level adventures.
I am still struggling to imagine a campaign starting at level 20. That sounds like more of a one-shot type of deal, and a lot of general principles go out the window for that type of situation. Like consumables become extra valuable if you are looking at 4 to 6 total encounters of play tops.
For example, a rank 9 scroll is only 3 thousand gold pieces. One scroll of false life is 31 extra temp XP for the whole day. Buy that and probably 2 major numbing tonics and you've probably given yourself 10 to 25% (depending on the character) extra HP for the whole campaign for about 6000 gp.
You could even buy a couple rank 10 scrolls of Runic weapon and preemptively cast them on your back up weapon when you think an encounter is near and come out ahead of buying the +3 major striking rune on back up weapon, even if you bought a +1 potency rune on it to get your returning rune there.
One shot play characters will just look totally different than a chaaracter who completed a full AP, and I think that is a good thing.
Staff of Arcane Might is a special item, meaning you would have to pay for the increased fundamental runes separately. This rule only applies to basic equipment, like Longswords and Full Plate.Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.Interesting.
So could my champion sorcerer get, say, a +3 major striking staff of arcane might and still have it treated as a single item?
Theoretically you could (GM permitting) do it with 2 items and some of the Pocket Change though. One item for a +3 Major Striking weapon, one item for the Staff of Arcane Might, then pay the Rune Transfer fees and say you did the transfer with downtime before joining the party.
I would definitely allow it as two separate item level choices, not unlike having a +3 Major Striking Holy Avenger, but the idea that you can do it all and have it count as a singular item doesn't track based on the item table extrapolation.
Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?Why would most players think to do otherwise when doubling rings, until recently, only existed in a splat book?
In my case, I was trying to emulate an existing character (or rather, reset it to a "table neutral" state), and I never came across doubling rings during the adventure. Also,
it simply didn't occur to me.
Oh, and my secondary weapon is also a javelin, which the rings won't work on (as it is thrown).
Alright. Using some of the advice in this thread, I've managed to curb much of the costs and still get the things I want on the character, and then some.
Here's a break down of the character in question, along with their 20th-level gear list thus far.
Thanks for the help everyone!
Oh, and my secondary weapon is also a javelin, which the rings won't work on (as it is thrown).Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?Why would most players think to do otherwise when doubling rings, until recently, only existed in a splat book?
In my case, I was trying to emulate an existing character (or rather, reset it to a "table neutral" state), and I never came across doubling rings during the adventure. Also,
it simply didn't occur to me.
Blazons of Shared Power are what you want.
Blazons of Shared Power are what you want.Oh, and my secondary weapon is also a javelin, which the rings won't work on (as it is thrown).Why would you buy 2 Major Striking runes when Greater Doubling Rings are like a quarter of the price?Why would most players think to do otherwise when doubling rings, until recently, only existed in a splat book?
In my case, I was trying to emulate an existing character (or rather, reset it to a "table neutral" state), and I never came across doubling rings during the adventure. Also,
it simply didn't occur to me.
Yeah, I got both. Blazons for the javelin and the rings for the shield, or gauntlet, or whatever other off-hand weapon.
Theoretically you could (GM permitting) do it with 2 items and some of the Pocket Change though. One item for a +3 Major Striking weapon, one item for the Staff of Arcane Might, then pay the Rune Transfer fees and say you did the transfer with downtime before joining the party.Staff of Arcane Might is a special item, meaning you would have to pay for the increased fundamental runes separately. This rule only applies to basic equipment, like Longswords and Full Plate.Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.Interesting.
So could my champion sorcerer get, say, a +3 major striking staff of arcane might and still have it treated as a single item?
Yeah that's exactly how I'd handle it. Transferring the runes is a valid choice and as long as you could have reasonably found that service at some point before starting the adventure (or have a PC in the party that can do it), just let it happen and move on.
RAW, a +3 Major Striking Longsword is a single level 19 item, so if you're taking the method that comes with items, you get all that for one
"item", and it's a big savings.
Why would most players think to do otherwise when doubling rings, until recently, only existed in a splat book?I, huh? Doubling Rings were first printed in the CRB, and then were reprinted in GM Core; they're about as non-splat as it's possible to get.
Oh wow. I could have sworn they weren't core Premaster.
Aren't new character wealth at high levels supposed to be equivalent of "character who just leveled up to level, but haven't adventured yet and gained new stuff"?
That's my understanding.