Earth’s bile having only a 30ft range makes me wonder how often I’d use it first round anyway. Moving and then casting it is pretty much a waste of time unless you have to move twice. So anytime you’d have to move before casting it, you might as well channeler’s stance, then blast with a spell slot spell. Unless your whole party just rushes way ahead of you, in which case, your animist is probably in trouble with most builds.
Having played a wizard who utilized the protectors runes focus spell, learning when to first cast your sustained focus spells is a huge tactical decision. Always trying to get them out in the first turn when they are unlikely to be of particular use can wreck your effectiveness in an encounter, because you can’t really let them go without giving them up for the rest of the combat, or dumping focus points for no reason.
It really seems like garden of Grover’s animists will be better off prioritizing channeler’s stance round me than getting their focus spell before anyone needs it, unless you go very late in the turn order and you have an aggressive party.
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unless you go very late in the turn order and you have an aggressive party.So... Like every time, right?!
Well it is only a 10ft emanation, so if your party is aggressive (like using sudden charge) you are probably not casting a 2 action spell and garden on round 1 anyway. Channeler's stance + 2 action heal round 1 is going to be more healing (since the implication here is that the healing was necessary in round 1), and because you can just keep sustaining it after battle, I don't think waiting until round 3 or 4 to start your Garden spell is even a big deal, because you will get your utility out of if it best when there are the least amount of enemies on the field and the highest number of injured allies in the same small area. If you have circle of spirits, then Custodian strikes me very much as a secondary apparition.
There is no argument to "win" because you have none.
Just take the L and stop trolling.
Emphasis not mine, this time. You are pretty clearly desperate to win.
Every single of your posts changes what the argument was about because your initial one was proven absolutely wrong.
Which initial argument? The issue as I point out is that I never made an initial argument, because I did not come here to argue. It is you who interjected to a comment that wasn't directed at you, came up with arguments that had no relevance to anything I'd said in my comment, and shifted the goalposts each time your statements were proven untrue. You were and still are desperate for an argument, without any regard for substance.
At this point there's simply no use to even read your ravings.
Your latest several replies are literally full-on rants, my dude. You even took the trouble of highlighting several of your breathless invectives in bold.
Str/Dex: BlueGreen. You need at least one of them following Wisdom, hence Blue. The one you didn't raise becomes Green.
I don't think this is really how the guide works, and my personal opinion on this is that both are blue, even when you take one or the other. Strength and Dexterity both have benefits independent of the other on an Animist: Strength for instance is what lets you use devouring dark form's tentacle attack, whereas Dexterity increases the Thievery checks you might be making using traveling workshop. Even on just the same spell, such as embodiment of battle, increasing both gives you the flexibility to fight at melee or range. Although Intelligence has a few benefits too in improving your Lore and Crafting checks, I'd argue those benefits are still more marginal compared to what you'd get out of Strength or Dex as a fourth score. Thus, I do think it's still not a question of either/or: both are good.
unless you go very late in the turn order and you have an aggressive party.So... Like every time, right?!
Animist is wisdom primary so probably not.
Is there anything suggesting that 2 or more of these are competing for the SAME third action?
Vessel Spells are Sustained Spells. So they compete for the same third actions if you prefer. But overall you'll have to make choices between these actions, which is severely hindering their effectiveness.
Earth’s bile having only a 30ft range makes me wonder how often I’d use it first round anyway. Moving and then casting it is pretty much a waste of time unless you have to move twice. So anytime you’d have to move before casting it, you might as well channeler’s stance, then blast with a spell slot spell.
Definitely: If the action competition is removed, mostly because you can't or shouldn't use your Vessel Spell, then the solution is obvious.
But if you have to move to use Earth's Bile, chances are high that the next round you'll still need to move to use Earth's Bile. So you haven't really solved the action competition issue by using Channeler's Stance at round 1, you nearly made it worse by delaying even more the moment where you'll be able to use Earth's Bile.
Animist is wisdom primary so probably not.
And Medium's Awareness is also a wonderful feat to take.
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Is there anything suggesting that 2 or more of these are competing for the SAME third action?Vessel Spells are Sustained Spells. So they compete for the same third actions if you prefer. But overall you'll have to make choices between these actions, which is severely hindering their effectiveness.
Meh. Channeler's Stance is a one time use and as you suggest, maybe should be followed with a 2-action spell, all on the first turn. I think that knocks it out of needing to compete for a 3rd action though I should maybe add that following up with a 2-action spell would be optimal.
I also think that Circle of Spirits will only be used as necessary (my primary is terrible for this situation, need to swap ASAP) or for the case where you might be wanting to sustain multiple vessel spells, which will feel very wonky and require the right planning of actions. Even then it's only competing for a single 3rd action occasionally and that likely being the 3rd action for the 1st turn.
So it seems the SAME 3rd action they are competing for is likely the 3rd action of the 1st turn, but I don't think this is a regular issue someone should be running into.
As far as sustaining competing for a 3rd action, it only seems like it would be competing if you are trying to sustain multiple vessel spells. In that case, it's actually competing with A LOT of other possible actions.
Meh. Channeler's Stance is a one time use and as you suggest, maybe should be followed with a 2-action spell, all on the first turn. I think that knocks it out of needing to compete for a 3rd action though I should maybe add that following up with a 2-action spell would be optimal.
But that's all I say: Channeler's Stance will compete with your Vessel Spell, in general for the third action of your fist round. If your Vessel Spell is Earth's Bile, then you'll start casting Earth's Bile one round later. Your guide states that you gain up to 25% damage for Earth's Bile but you don't mention that you'll in general lose 100% of Earth's Bile damage during round 1 ending up with a net loss of damage.
I also think that Circle of Spirits will only be used as necessary (my primary is terrible for this situation, need to swap ASAP) or for the case where you might be wanting to sustain multiple vessel spells, which will feel very wonky and require the right planning of actions. Even then it's only competing for a single 3rd action occasionally and that likely being the 3rd action for the 1st turn.
I agree. And if you need to swap your primary ASAP then it doesn't compete with an action as you certainly don't want to use your Vessel Spell anyway.
I don't speak of double Vessel Spells, as these are super specific builds. If you need Circle of Spirits for your build to work, it's obviously mandatory.|
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Meh. Channeler's Stance is a one time use and as you suggest, maybe should be followed with a 2-action spell, all on the first turn. I think that knocks it out of needing to compete for a 3rd action though I should maybe add that following up with a 2-action spell would be optimal.But that's all I say: Channeler's Stance will compete with your Vessel Spell, in general for the third action of your fist round. If your Vessel Spell is Earth's Bile, then you'll start casting Earth's Bile one round later. Your guide states that you gain up to 25% damage for Earth's Bile but you don't mention that you'll in general lose 100% of Earth's Bile damage during round 1 ending up with a net loss of damage.
Ah, gotcha. I think I will add further advice on how each should be utilized effectively. Thank you.
I think the Earth’s bile hang over from the platter has folks thinking over estimating it as a blaster’s best friend. I am not saying it’s bad, but it isn’t good enough to make the animist a full day blaster like some folks are imagining it to be. The best animist blasting builds (as in not, one encounter a day of solid blasting) will rely on channeler’s stance and harm spells, not blasty apparition spell casting from slots. It will look ok at low levels when you are using apparition cantrips, but at higher levels you pretty much have to be dealing void damage to blast effectively for very long.
I think the animist is pretty well equipped to do more damage with a third action strike than with earth’s bile, in many situations.
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I think the Earth’s bile hang over from the platter has folks thinking over estimating it as a blaster’s best friend. I am not saying it’s bad, but it isn’t good enough to make the animist a full day blaster like some folks are imagining it to be. The best animist blasting builds (as in not, one encounter a day of solid blasting) will rely on channeler’s stance and harm spells, not blasty apparition spell casting from slots. It will look ok at low levels when you are using apparition cantrips, but at higher levels you pretty much have to be dealing void damage to blast effectively for very long.
I think the animist is pretty well equipped to do more damage with a third action strike than with earth’s bile, in many situations.
I'm thinking I should maybe drop its rating a bit just because it isn't great versus a single target. Once you can hit 2 or more enemies, it's still an amazing single action. So yeah, it's great but it's not ALWAYS great.
Ah, gotcha. I think I will add further advice on how each should be utilized effectively. Thank you.
Yes, it's hard to convey, and I don't know how I'd explain it (and proof is I don't do it fine as I need multiple posts to get it).
I think the animist is pretty well equipped to do more damage with a third action strike than with earth’s bile, in many situations.
I fully disagree on that. Earth's Bile is really a high damage Focus Spell. It deals Cantrip damage with one action, largely competing with martials attack, something you won't attain as an Animist with a third action Strike.
Overall, the Vessel Spells are at the top of the Focus Spell food chain. They should be really impactful as it's really the thing of the Animist.
I am not saying it’s bad, but it isn’t good enough to make the animist a full day blaster like some folks are imagining it to be.
I disagree but I feel it may come from underlying assumptions. Do you mean only using Earth's Bile? Or using it alongside other 2-action blasting spells? Because in the second case, it's definitely a blaster friend. It can be further improved, with Dangerous Sorcery or Foretell Harm, but it's a very nice place to start.
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I think that people are overrating STR, the only thing that it gives over Dex, is a grapple on the devouring dark form, that by the way is incredible action inneficient for a glorified grapple as you have to cast it to gain the form and only on the second turn sustains that you begin to grapple, and the grapple of the forest heart feat.
It's fine, if you build around (athletics, heavy armor, probably liturgist), but not something that I would look at most animist builds and take it.
I think you're right.
Thoughts?
I also think I'm right :D
In my opinion, Channeler's Stance is hard to use. It's really not something I'd put in beginner's hands as calculating beforehand how much damage you'll get out of it asks for quite an amount of guesses (which may all be wrong).In my opinion, the best way to use it is on a healer. As healing is not useful during round 1 you have the action to cast it and you may even add an Apparition blasting spell. Then, when you turn to healing you benefit from the bonus to healing, too. And as healing is your thing you do it mostly for the healing bonus and the extra damage is just a bonus.
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The way I'm reading it, Channeler's Stance will only grant a bonus to the healing of garden of healing on the initial casting. Am I the only one reading it that way?Garden of Healing doesn't have Vitality Trait.
It'll not be affected at all.
Oh, you're right. I missed that. Thank you. I also think I was imagining people suggesting that Channeler's Stance works with garden of healing....
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Does anyone else believe with all the restrictions of battle forms, that losing an action was warranted? I think its a tad too much and would personally rank Darkened Forest Form lower as a result.
The loss of an action makes slow, stunned, flight, or any other circumstance in which an action is required that much more debilitating than for other PCs. Again this is all on top of current battle form limitations
Does anyone else believe with all the restrictions of battle forms, that losing an action was warranted? I think its a tad too much and would personally rank Darkened Forest Form lower as a result.
The loss of an action makes slow, stunned, flight, or any other circumstance in which an action is required that much more debilitating than for other PCs. Again this is all on top of current battle form limitations
Just don't use it when you're Slowed or Stunned. It's meant for caster oriented Animists, you use it when you need to shift to melee. If you want a gish Vessel Spell to use most of the time, Embodiment of Battle is much more suited.
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Just don't use it when you're Slowed or Stunned. It's meant for caster oriented Animists, you use it when you need to shift to melee. If you want a gish Vessel Spell to use most of the time, Embodiment of Battle is much more suited.Does anyone else believe with all the restrictions of battle forms, that losing an action was warranted? I think its a tad too much and would personally rank Darkened Forest Form lower as a result.
The loss of an action makes slow, stunned, flight, or any other circumstance in which an action is required that much more debilitating than for other PCs. Again this is all on top of current battle form limitations
I doubt anyone would use any battle form under those conditions to begin with but if you were already in form you would be brought down to this spell's default effectiveness. I believe just casting the named spell is more efficient if a caster needs (why?) to melee. Embodiment of Battle is much more suited and thus should be higher ranked then Darkened. This focus spell is functional and cool but mechanically not worth the rating presented in the guide. Also flying in combat sucks major with this; that's a sin
I've finished my PFS convention and have played my level 3 Animist a bit. I decided to go for a Wis/Cha/Con/Int Animist (in that order), with healing as main specialization and skills as secondary specialization.
The Pathbuilder build for those interested.
In combat, my action economy has been so crowded that taking an action for Channeler's Stance was quite a high cost. I used it once. Not that it's never useful but you need the conditions for it. Overall, I've not been thrilled by it.
About the Lore skills, they are usable if you know things in advance. Which is rather true for PFS adventures where you can read the scenario description before the adventure (it's a bit of metagaming though but from my experience it's an accepted form of metagaming). Still, you need high Intelligence to get anything out of it. If you keep Intelligence at 10 then the -5 to the DC is compensated by the -4 to the associated attribute (as most of the Lore skills are related to nature somehow). Still, Foundry support for switching Apparitions is rather subpar, it doesn't help. Maybe they will improve it.
Anyway, it's a nice character with many possible actions. It's not repetitive. As of now I like it.
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I've played quite a lot my Garden of Healing Animist lately and I've also helped a friend playing an Embodiment of Battle Animist and it just reinforced what I was saying.
I've not been able to use Channeler's Stance once in an entire level. I retrain out of it. The action cost is killing it. It's orange at best, nowhere close to blue.
My friend and I tried to get his Embodiment of Battle Animist running, but between the action cost and the penalty to spells Embodiment of Battle is just unusable. The Animist is no gish, it can just switch to martial every now and then. And for that, it's Darkened Forest Form or Devouring Dark Form you look for, not Embodiment of Battle.
As Embodiment of Battle is the main reason to raise Strength on an Animist, it makes Strength roughly useless on an Animist (unless you want to qualify for Heavy Armor, I guess).
I've tried to use the Lores by choosing an Apparition in line with the adventure I was playing every time, but it doesn't work. Most Lores are competing with Nature (Moutain/River/Terrain Lore, Herbalism Lore, Fey Lore) or Survival (Hunting Lore) and the reduction in DC doesn't compensate the reduction in your skill bonus. On top of that, the Animist Lores have low proficiency scaling. So it's best to just forget about them.
As it was the only reason to switch Apparitions during daily preparations, I can now state even more that there's no point in doing so. The Animist is a specialist: Choose your 2/3/4 Apparitions and stick to them, that's how the class works.
I've been able to regularly Demoralize my opponents. The Animist is the opposite of Charisma casters: It Demoralizes when it has to move. As Strength doesn't work and Intelligence neither, I now consider Charisma the go to 4th attribute of the Animist, both for the excellent skill support and the potential Dedications you can grab with it.
I've been positively surprised by Garden of Healing during combat. I've had issues when moving and healed enemies, but the overall healing output is nicer than I thought. During long fights, it really removes the stress on your spell slots.
To conclude, I don't consider the class to be really strong. It's with Wizard, Witch and Psychic in terms of power level. You need a very optimized Animist to feel fine in terms of power.
As a side note, considering the difference between the actual Animist gameplay and the theorycrafting I read on these boards, I expect a lot of people to get really disappointed by the class in the coming years. From experience, when there's such a discrepancy between an actual gameplay and what people think it should be the criticism never goes down even when people try to communicate how to play the class.
The Animist is the new preremaster Oracle. It's weird, not strong, and complex. It will please those who loved the preremaster Oracle and displease the others.
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I've played quite a lot my Garden of Healing Animist lately and I've also helped a friend playing an Embodiment of Battle Animist and it just reinforced what I was saying.
What level were your characters?
I've not been able to use Channeler's Stance once in an entire level. I retrain out of it. The action cost is killing it. It's orange at best, nowhere close to blue.
What were you intending to use Channeler's Stance for and what actions are you prioritizing over it?
My friend and I tried to get his Embodiment of Battle Animist running, but between the action cost and the penalty to spells Embodiment of Battle is just unusable. The Animist is no gish, it can just switch to martial every now and then. And for that, it's Darkened Forest Form or Devouring Dark Form you look for, not Embodiment of Battle.
As Embodiment of Battle is the main reason to raise Strength on an Animist, it makes Strength roughly useless on an Animist (unless you want to qualify for Heavy Armor, I guess).
Embodiment of Battle can function perfectly well with dexterity, while Devouring Dark Form requires strength or athletics, otherwise, it's just a worse Darkened Forest Form. The last session I played, if I didn't invest in strength, I wouldn't have shut down an entire encounter on my first turn with a successful grapple check with Devouring Dark Form. It's anecdotal evidence but a small example of a reason to opt into raising strength.
I don't think the Animist is innately a gish either. It just has the tools for one but you have to build for it.
Most Lores are competing with Nature (Moutain/River/Terrain Lore, Herbalism Lore, Fey Lore) or Survival (Hunting Lore) ...
What about for characters who don't invest in nature or survival?
As I said in the guide, I think the effectiveness of the lore skills are VERY GM dependent. I happened to have an adequate lore skill (underground lore) in a situation and rolled well enough that the GM told us that going a certain route would cause problems and we were able to avoid that encounter (and we still got the XP). Again, anecdotal evidence.
As it was the only reason to switch Apparitions during daily preparations, I can now state even more that there's no point in doing so. The Animist is a specialist: Choose your 2/3/4 Apparitions and stick to them, that's how the class works.
Is this in regards to Circle of Spirits?
The Animist is the opposite of Charisma casters: It Demoralizes when it has to move.
What does this mean?
What level were your characters?
My Animist is 3, my friend's is 1.
What were you intending to use Channeler's Stance for and what actions are you prioritizing over it?
I was intending to use it to buff my damage/healing. I mostly either moved or cast a Vessel Spell. Channeler's Stance doesn't work well with healing (it doesn't work with Garden of Healing and the buff to 2-action Heal is really low). And, as you have to use it right away if you want to improve your blasting, it directly competes with... blasting. Overall, a hassle to try to use it for no sensitive gain.
Embodiment of Battle can function perfectly well with dexterity
As I said: Embodiment of Battle doesn't work because of action economy issues and the penalty to your DCs. The question is not really on what attribute you use (and using it with Dexterity is even worse than using it with Strength).
Devouring Dark Form requires strength or athletics, otherwise, it's just a worse Darkened Forest Form
Not at all, you get a free Strike with Devouring Dark Form that you don't have with Darkened Forest Form. I'm not speaking about the free Grapple and d8 tentacle which is gimmicky at best.
The last session I played, if I didn't invest in strength, I wouldn't have shut down an entire encounter on my first turn with a successful grapple check with Devouring Dark Form. It's anecdotal evidence but a small example of a reason to opt into raising strength.
The thing is: what have you lost to "shut down" an encounter with a Grapple check? Considering that outside extreme luck, you don't shut down encounters with a Grapple check.
What about for characters who don't invest in nature or survival?
On a Wisdom based class with a lot to do with spirits of Nature? I think these characters will be the exception.
Is this in regards to Circle of Spirits?
No, it's in regards to the Animist ability to switch Apparitions during daily preparations.
I haven't tried double Vessel Spell and haven't really considered it so I don't speak about Circle of Spirits.What does this mean?
Charisma-based Casters Demoralize when they don't have to move (Demoralize + 2-action spell). The Animist Demoralizes when it has to move (Stride + Demoralize + Sustain Vessel Spell). So it's the opposite of Charisma casters but overall it can Demoralize nearly as often.
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I've been playing two Animist characters. One at level 4-5 in PFS, one at level 13 in Stolen Fate.
I've been enjoying both experiences a lot. Both of them are built so that they have the option of getting into close combat and using melee weapons (both wear plate mail and have good strength).
One thing that I noticed in one PFS adventure. In the right circumstances Nymphs Grace is very, very powerful. I don't want to over interpret the one data point but it turned what the reviews were mentioning as a hard encounter into a cake walk. Mind you, it was probably the nearly perfect scenario (I rolled well on initiative, the encounter had several mooks with low will saves and they all kept rolling poorly). My character single handly dealt with I think it was 4 mooks (killed some, delayed the rest until the rest of the group had dealt with the boss).
In this particular case the fact that it is a single round to cast was absolutely critical. Let me double move into the optimal location and lock down the bad guys.
I agree with you about Chanelers Stance. Haven't quite given up on it and retrained it yet but I'm close. When I roll high on initiative and go first (or nearly so) it probably just about breaks even as I get to Earth's Bile a bunch of enemies.
I have had success with Embodiment of Battle. Round 1 - Throw spell, move into position. Round 2 - Earth Bile, Whirl. Hit. Round 3 - Either sustain Earth Bile, Embodiment of battle, hit or Embodiment, hit, hit. Its a good routine for the moderate battles as it lets you conserve your spells for later.
In the right circumstances Nymphs Grace is very, very powerful.
Nymph's Grace is brutal. It's in the top tier of Vessel Spells. Only drawback: It works only against non-mindless low level enemies. So you need an alternative.
Round 3 - Either sustain Earth Bile, Embodiment of battle, hit or Embodiment, hit, hit.
But would it be better to grab Darkened Forest Form instead?
The main asset of Embodiment of Battle compared to Battle Forms is that you can keep on casting. If you only attack once you use it, then Darkened Forest Form gives you the same offensive ability without having to invest in both Strength and a valid weapon.|
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But would it be better to grab Darkened Forest Form instead?
The main asset of Embodiment of Battle compared to Battle Forms is that you can keep on casting. If you only attack once you use it, then Darkened Forest Form gives you the same offensive ability without having to invest in both Strength and a valid weapon.
In terms of raw offensive ability it depends on level and group (whether somebody else is handing out status bonuses) which is better.
But I found the extra flexibility of Embodiment was useful enough times for me to generally prefer it. Having the option to do strike and spell in the same round (and move at L9+) came up sometimes (losing the sustain isn't a huge deal since you can just cast it again the next round as long as you have the Focus Points).
And I was investing in Str and Weapon anyway. Sometimes I was just hitting people with my longspear while using other spells entirely (Nymph's Blessing or Earth's Bile). As a 3rd action a longspear hit isn't bad. And I already had to build for close up combat (high Con, good armor) anyway.
Flexibility. I loves me some flexibility :-). Especially in PFS.
In terms of raw offensive ability it depends on level and group (whether somebody else is handing out status bonuses) which is better.
But I found the extra flexibility of Embodiment was useful enough times for me to generally prefer it. Having the option to do strike and spell in the same round (and move at L9+) came up sometimes (losing the sustain isn't a huge deal since you can just cast it again the next round as long as you have the Focus Points).
And I was investing in Str and Weapon anyway. Sometimes I was just hitting people with my longspear while using other spells entirely (Nymph's Blessing or Earth's Bile). As a 3rd action a longspear hit isn't bad. And I already had to build for close up combat (high Con, good armor) anyway.
Flexibility. I loves me some flexibility :-). Especially in PFS.
Ok, I see your point. If you can get a Strike + 2-action spell round then you can call yourself a gish.
I still find it too expensive but I agree there's something to do with it. But definitely not something simple ;)|
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But definitely not something simple ;)
While you CAN build an Animist to be a fairly simple character to play it is easy (and much more fun :-)) to build an Animist that is fairly complex to play but very, very versatile. This versatility can be within a single combat, between combats in the same day, between different days for different missions or with different groups (especially useful for PFS), or between levels as your entire approach shifts as you level up.
I've always valued versatility very highly, partly for sheer power but mostly because I find it fun,
Its definitely my absolutely favourite class right now.
While you CAN build an Animist to be a fairly simple character to play it is easy (and much more fun :-)) to build an Animist that is fairly complex to play but very, very versatile. This versatility can be within a single combat, between combats in the same day, between different days for different missions or with different groups (especially useful for PFS), or between levels as your entire approach shifts as you level up.
I've always valued versatility very highly, partly for sheer power but mostly because I find it fun,
Its definitely my absolutely favourite class right now.
I don't find that the Animist is really that versatile, personally. For me, it's caster versatile. Whatever caster you play, you can switch between multiple playstyles by just casting another type of spells. There are much more versatile classes (especially the Summoner, which is the absolute king of versatility).
My experience has been that you never switch things between combats or between days. Mostly because there's nothing you can change that will have any form of impact. Switching Focus Spells doesn't suddenly make you a blaster, healer or gish. You're a gish because you built to be a gish, you're a healer because you're a Divine caster and you're no real blaster even with Earth's Bile. The only exception is Nymph's Grace, as it's the only Vessel Spell that carries a playstyle you don't already have and doesn't ask for specific build support to be usable.
Anyway, it looks like I'm criticizing, but I definitely like the class. It's just that I find people's expectations to be extreme on this discussion (and another one that was happening at the same time).
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Channeler's Stance is a trap. I've moved it all around and it just doesn't work. The one-action cost prevents it from being a valid move for blasting. And if you build your Animist to be a healer you'll certainly go for AoE healing over time with Garden of Healing being your main Vessel Spell, and Channeler's Stance doesn't really help for healing over time effects.
Wait, what ? I'm confused.
Channeler's stand is awesome for blasting AND healing as an animist.True, it doesn't work on Garden of Healing but that's about it.
As a blaster, you should of course have the Steward of Stone and Fire. So channeler's stand will work on Earth's bile - which, let's face it, is a huge part of an animist DPS - but also on Fireball, volcanic eruption, falling stars...
Before the remaster, a lot of classes used to dip sorcerer to get sorcerous potency. Well, this is even better than Sorcerous Potency because, although more narrow in application, it works on cantrips AND sustained spells.
So, yeah, you have to waste one action activating it. But you'll get between 30 and 40% more damage on Earth's bile EVERY TURN, your Caustic Blast suddenly becomes SO MUCH BETTER, your fireball now hurts way more...
Also, as a divine caster, you SHOULD have some heals (I find the Balance feat to be quite mandatory but if you didn't take it, you should get some heals in your prepared list). When your level 10 friend gets dropped from 80hp to 10hp in a round, you don't need a 5d4 garden of healing, you need a heal spell - and getting a bonus for free is nothing to sneeze at.
There is absolutely no situation where, as a blaster or healer, you shouldn't activate this as early as possible. I'd go so far as to say it's mandatory and a feat tax for any animist that wants to blast and/or heal. Only those with a heavy emphasis on melee or control spells can maybe - just maybe - ignore it.
Edit: Also, thanks for this guide, I found it very sound and entertaining ;)
Edit2: Oh wow, I'm coming a whole page late, sorry, it seems the issue has already been resolved and everybody's now convinced how awesome Channeler's Stance is ^^
I already said thanks for the guide and I agree with pretty much everything you say.
However, here are a few things I disagree with after a few more games inside my belt:
1) Custodian of groves and gardian being blue
I was really excited about it, but after actual play I'd put it no higher than green and maybe even lower. The reason being that:
- the given spells pretty much all suck (Protector tree is great as a kineticist, not so much as a 3-slot caster; gentle breeze is soso and redundant with your vessel spell, safe passage and peaceful bubble are incredibly niche, truespeech might be ok but a scroll is enough, field of life sucks, lifewood cage sucks, nature's enmity superduper sucks. The only thing you can salvage is Moment of Renewal, and even so, that's not always useful).
- even the vessel spell (which I would demote to green) isn't as useful as I thought. In a fight, the healing is nice but not big enough to really make a difference, plus it needs positioning, plus you have to come to the frontlines, plus it also heals ennemies, plus it eats into your actions if you're not a post lvl-9 liturgist. In a whiteroom, it looks cool, and it's certainly useful when blocking a chokepoint, but most fights I did were messy and the barbarian was charging this caster far away, the champion was running after him to protect him, the rogue was running after them to get his flanking bonus, and you're left with a useless 10-ft emanation. I'm exagerating, of course, but I really wasn't impressed when I used it. You list all the drawbacks yourself in your review, so I really think it should be bumped down a notch.
As for out of combat healing, it's the best focus spell for that but OOC healing is usually not a big deal anyway.
2) Nymph's grace being green while discomfiting whispers are blue: I'd switch the ratings.
I would bump Nymph's Grace to blue. Sure, it's incapacitation, but the effect is incredible: it's a FRIENDLY 10-ft emanation that confuses on a will save, AND the enemy CANNOT attack you, AND he has to save every turn. Provided you think a bit about your positioning, you can make mooks wail on each other like there's no tomorrow - and even if a friend of yours is closer and gets attacked, the enemy is reduced to regular strikes, which effectively shuts down most dangerous actions.
Also, if you are playing some kind of gish and are the only one in melee with your opponent, he HAS to find another target if he fails his save, meaning he has to lose an action moving and provoking. Plus, hey, free flat-footed.
Of course, it's useless on high level monsters, but the effect on mooks is so good (and you say so yourself ^^) that it's often best in slot.
On the other hand, Discomfiting whispers is pretty unimpressive. It's only a 5ft aura wich means you HAVE to be in melee. It's not incapacitation but they do get a will save, and the effect, while nice, is nowhere near as devastating as confusion. So I'd drop it to green.
3) Vanguard of roaring water (and its vessel spell) being blue
I just don't understand this one, but then I didn't use it so maybe I missed something. Seems to me the Vessel Spell (that you also rated blue) is pretty tame. Unless you're a lvl9+ liturgist, you spend a focus point AND an action to get a free move and +10 to your speed. So basically you don't get ahead in the number of action, you just get +10 to your speed, lesser cover against ranged attacks and creating difficult terrain in your first stride. Those are nice perks, don't get me wrong, but they look pretty circumstancial. If all you want is speed, at higher levels becoming an air elemental and flying at 80 feet/action is strictly better while at lower levels deer form is almost equal if you have the standard 25ft movement. I can see someone abusing this with a very agile build and running in circles, but still I'd much rather use an action to blast with Earth's Bile or confuse everybody, or shapeshift, or heal. So I'd drop River Carving Mountains two whole levels and put it red - or at least green.
As for spells given, they're somewhat ok for blasting but hydraulic push is meh, crashing wave is an unwieldy fireball, control water is very niche, dancing fountain is a bad sustain, whirlpool sucks and wrathful storm is more a RP tool than a useful spell.
Mist, Personal Ocean, hydraulic torrent are solid spells, but they certainly don't make this list suddenly awesome.
So for me River Carving Mountains is red, and Vanguard of roaring water is light green.
4) Grudge Strike being blue
It's certainly nice on paper, BUT it restrains you to playing Watcher or Impostor - and if you use a vessel spell, you already have one action gone into sustaining. So Grudge strike will be your only action of the round - better make it count. +2 to hit is really good and the bonus damage is just gravy, but I'm not sure it's THAT good.
5) Roaring Heart being blue
So let me get this straight. You stride twice - into all sorts of attacks of opportunities. Then you can shove twice - which is an attack action, so it suffers from MAP. Shoving is... ok I guess, but nothing to write home about unless your team loves to abuse hasardous terrain. Then, if you succeed at shoving, you and your friends get temporary hit points, which is actually great. In most cases, they'll be of half your level (because succeeding at two shoves isn't that easy with MAP, even if you invest heavily in it), and that's not much. Also, you just strode twice so unless you ran in circles or your team was way ahead, they probably won't be in the radius anymore.
So IF you need to stride twice for some reason, it's actually great action compression. If you want to run away, for instance, or play the vanguard for some reason.
Between this and River Carving, I notice you value positioning a lot and it's certainly important - but not to this extend, at least from what I've seen.
If it didn't provoke AOOs, it certainly would be blue. But as written, t's really circumstancial and to me doesn't deserve more than green. I'd even rate it red.
6) Fly on shadowed wings being blue
I'd drop it to green. It's certainly useful but, at this level, you can turn into an air elemental for one focus point. So it's useless in exploration, and in combat the two action cost to activate it is pretty hefty. I'm not saying it's worthless - hence the green rating - but I don't think it's worth a lvl 10 feat (especially with quickened casting being there ^^).
Whew ! That was a lot of text but, as you can see, only nitpicking on six points in your whole guide. So thanks a lot again for all your hard work ;)
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I already said thanks for the guide and I agree with pretty much everything you say.
However, here are a few things I disagree with after a few more games inside my belt....
Glad you enjoyed it!
As far as a lot of the things you suggest dropping by a rating or 2, a lot of what I think justifies their current ratings is that they can be swapped out easily every day. If this was a normal class that locked you into your choices, then yes, I would agree with most or all of this, but mechanically, this class pretty obviously wasn't designed to be played only ever using 4 apparitions and never swapping around your wandering feats. In other words, the risk of an option becoming useless is lessened or even negated when you don't have to commit to that risk every day, especially if you have some foresight on if that option will be useful or not. It's the same classic reason why some people prefer wizards over sorcerers. Also, for some people, like myself, sometimes you just want to change things up....a lot.
The one option that you can swap around daily that I did rate as bad, store time, was rated so because, not only is it so limited, it requires you spend other wandering feats or choose another particular apparition to function, therefore actually detracting from the versatility of the class.