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Tumble through is an untrained action that states, "you Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment"
My question is, do you even need to ever stride when tumble through covers striding with no additional requirements? If you can just replace stride with tumble through, the liturgist animist is a lot stronger than it already reads once it hits level 9.
So, the question is pretty incomplete and unclear, since you're talking about a class that isn't released yet without describing the relevant interaction. But it sounds a bit like the pre-errata talk about using Quick Spring as a double speed Stride without actually trying to go through any enemy's space.
The answer to that one was pretty much "yes, it is super strong if you allow that, but it's so obviously counter to how it's intended to work that only a truly silly GM would ever allow it to work that way in a real game" until it got fixed in text.
I can't say if the same answer applies without the question being finished, though.
The answer part that definitely applies is that you can't use Tumble Through instead of Stride when the Stride is a subordinate action of something else, instead of you simply taking the Stride action.
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So, the question is pretty incomplete and unclear, since you're talking about a class that isn't released yet without describing the relevant interaction.
Sorry, to clarify, the liturgist's 9th level ability states, "When you Leap, Step, or Tumble Through, you also Sustain an apparition spell or vessel spell."
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Then yes, I am with HammerJack - Tumble Through is only Tumble Through if you go through an enemy's space. Otherwise it is mechanically just Stride no matter what you try to call it. Wanting to call a Stride action 'Tumble Through' so that you can get some additional benefit is cheese.
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Tumble through is an untrained action that states, "you Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment"
My question is, do you even need to ever stride when tumble through covers striding with no additional requirements? If you can just replace stride with tumble through, the liturgist animist is a lot stronger than it already reads once it hits level 9.
RAW, you are correct. Tumble Through is a Stride with a can clause. If you want to use it to just Stride, you absolutely can. If the second sentence said "During this movement, you must try to move..." it'd be different.
But as it is, you can absolutely use Tumble Through instead of Stride whenever you want. Which does indeed make Liturgist the most powerful Practice by far.
It's up to a GM to discourage this if they have a problem with it.
RAW cheese is still cheese.
By RAW, you can't make a Strike action against a Hungry Ghost with a +1 Ghost Touch Greatsword. The attack roll of Strike with a greatsword is a Strength-based check, and Incorporeal creatures are immune to all strength-based checks.
But yes, it is up to the GM to determine where to draw the line.
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RAW cheese is still cheese.
By RAW, you can't make a Strike action against a Hungry Ghost with a +1 Ghost Touch Greatsword. The attack roll of Strike with a greatsword is a Strength-based check, and Incorporeal creatures are immune to all strength-based checks.
But yes, it is up to the GM to determine where to draw the line.
The problem here is assuming this is cheese. It could very well not be, because we don't know development intent.
It could be they used Tumble Through because they (mistakenly) thought it can only be used when you're trying to move through a creature's space, despite the fact this isn't the case. So sure, it's a mistake and it should be errata'd.
Or, it could be they used Tumble Through because they know it allows people to Stride normally, while also giving them the option to change that Stride into another form of movement, while also allowing them to try and get through an enemy if so desired, and they wanted the Liturgist to have all those options available.
As much as I rag on the developers we need to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes. This is one of those cases where it could go either way.
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If it was intended to sustain a spell for a Stride, then I would think that Stride would be on the list.
"When you Leap, Step, or Tumble Through, you also Sustain an apparition spell or vessel spell."
Leaving off Stride because the developer knows that Tumble Through can be used to Stride feels like a gotcha rather than a reasonable word count saving measure.
So the benefit of the doubt that I am giving the developers is that they aren't deliberately trying to mislead players who don't know every fine and fiddly detail of every action printed. I don't think that the developers sit around going "You know, if we leave off Stride and include Tumble Through, then all of the experienced and knowledgeable players will still be aware that they can sustain for free just by doing the Stride equivalent Tumble Through. We don't need to include that one word and comma to support all of the newer and less experienced players."
I consider it cheese. You don't have to. Not everyone is going to. But I do.
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If it was intended to sustain a spell for a Stride, then I would think that Stride would be on the list.
"When you Leap, Step, or Tumble Through, you also Sustain an apparition spell or vessel spell."
Leaving off Stride because the developer knows that Tumble Through can be used to Stride feels like a gotcha rather than a reasonable word count saving measure.
So the benefit of the doubt that I am giving the developers is that they aren't deliberately trying to mislead players who don't know every fine and fiddly detail of every action printed. I don't think that the developers sit around going "You know, if we leave off Stride and include Tumble Through, then all of the experienced and knowledgeable players will still be aware that they can sustain for free just by doing the Stride equivalent Tumble Through. We don't need to include that one word and comma to support all of the newer and less experienced players."
I consider it cheese. You don't have to. Not everyone is going to. But I do.
But Tumble Through doesnt just let you stride, it also lets you Climb, Fly, Burrow, Swim, etc. If they only put Stride, those don't work.
Also this isn't a fine and fiddly detail, it's literally reading what the action does, which I expect players to do, because they're playing this game.
It's like saying "You can't Step into difficult terrain, and you can't Step using a Speed other than your land Speed." is a fiddly detail in the Step action.
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Tumble Through also asks for an Athletics check against the enemy's Reflex DC. Because that is part of what it does. The fiddly detail is that the word used in the rule is 'can' when it says that during the movement you can move through the space of one enemy - not 'must'.
No one casually reading through the list of actions thinks that Tumble Through is intended to be used when not going through any enemy space. It is only read that way by someone who has some ulterior motive (cheese) for doing so.
Moving and not going through an enemy space is what Stride is for.
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Tumble Through also asks for an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space.
FIFY
If you don't try to enter an enemy's space, no check is required.
If you don't try to enter an enemy's space, no check is required.
Sure. That is RAW.
But RAW is not what I am arguing here.
How many times have you ever decided that one of your characters would use Tumble Through to move from one space to another when Stride would have the same effect?
That is not the intent of Tumble Through.
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The problem here is assuming this is cheese.
I mean, if the intent was to let Liturgists sustain while striding it would just say that, no?
How many times have you ever decided that one of your characters would use Tumble Through to move from one space to another when Stride would have the same effect?
Every, single, movement made by Tinya, The Wonder of the East, an acrobat in The Circus of Wayward Wonders.
That is not the intent of Tumble Through.
So? It's not game breaking. It certainly isn't in the realm of TGTBT.
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Everyone just keeps arguing that 'it is RAW' as though that also means that it is RAI.
As I mentioned earlier, it is also RAW that you can't even swing a greatsword at a ghost even if the sword has the Ghost Touch rune. But that isn't RAI either.
The errata page is full of things that used to be RAW that aren't RAI. People are clamoring for plenty more changes like that for War of Immortals.
Can someone actually provide an RAI argument that allows Liturgist Sustain using Tumble Through when it has no mechanical difference from Stride to be used in place of Stride - which is not on the list of approved actions.
So far the best I have seen is 'it isn't TGTBT'.
Why should this be allowed?
Not: Is it allowed by RAW?
Not: Can I prove that it is too bad if not allowed?
What is the RAI argument in support?
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Everyone just keeps arguing that 'it is RAW' as though that also means that it is RAI.
As I mentioned earlier, it is also RAW that you can't even swing a greatsword at a ghost even if the sword has the Ghost Touch rune. But that isn't RAI either.
The errata page is full of things that used to be RAW that aren't RAI. People are clamoring for plenty more changes like that for War of Immortals.
Can someone actually provide an RAI argument that allows Liturgist Sustain using Tumble Through when it has no mechanical difference from Stride to be used in place of Stride - which is not on the list of approved actions.
So far the best I have seen is 'it isn't TGTBT'.
Why should this be allowed?
Not: Is it allowed by RAW?
Not: Can I prove that it is too bad if not allowed?What is the RAI argument in support?
To allow the Liturgist to Sustain with any kind of movement, since Tumble Through allows them to Climb/Swim/Fly/Burrow; and to allow the Liturgist to Sustain while attempting to get out of a sticky situation by trying to move through Spaces containing hostile creatures. You know, the things that make Tumble Through different from Stride.
The developers are clearly aware of how Tumble Through works. I can argue that if the intent was for it to trigger on a succesfull Acrobatics check to Tumble Through they would've written that. But it'd also mean of the three it'd be the only one that requires a succesful skill check, which is odd.
This idea that the intent we're discussing (that Tumble Through is a better Stride) is somehow impossible is weird, because the same argument can apply to Leap, especially by 9th level. If someone has a Leap of their Speed (or greater), and they Leap everywhere instead of Striding in order to Sustain, is that "cheese" too?
And I turn the question back to you: why shouldn't this be allowed? If it doesn't fall under TGTBT and it works RAW, what grounds do you have to disallow beyond "I don't like it"?
RAI is rather obvious, considering that the developpers don't make mistakes is a nice joke. So it's classical RAI vs RAW argument. Not much to say but: Expect table variations.
It'd be no at my table: If at the end of the Stride the Liturgist hasn't made a valid attempt at Tumbling Through then the spell won't be Sustained.
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To allow the Liturgist to Sustain with any kind of movement, since Tumble Through allows them to Climb/Swim/Fly/Burrow; and to allow the Liturgist to Sustain while attempting to get out of a sticky situation by trying to move through Spaces containing hostile creatures. You know, the things that make Tumble Through different from Stride.
And is there somewhere in the Liturgist ability that indicates that being able to Sustain with all of those different types of movement speeds is intended?
I can argue that if the intent was for it to trigger on a succesfull Acrobatics check to Tumble Through they would've written that. But it'd also mean of the three it'd be the only one that requires a succesful skill check, which is odd.
If you want to argue that, you may certainly do so.
I haven't. My argument is that it is intended that Tumble Through has an attempted check to move through an enemy's space. Otherwise it is just a Stride with a funny name.
This idea that the intent we're discussing (that Tumble Through is a better Stride) is somehow impossible is weird, because the same argument can apply to Leap, especially by 9th level. If someone has a Leap of their Speed (or greater), and they Leap everywhere instead of Striding in order to Sustain, is that "cheese" too?
My idea isn't that Tumble Through is a better Stride. People don't use Tumble Through if they could use Stride instead. No, Stride with flavor isn't Tumble Through. If you don't have a DC that you roll against, and there is no penalty for failing the check, then it isn't Tumble Through.
My idea is that a variation of Tumble Through that doesn't involve going through an enemy is just a Stride.
Same if you are Flying. Or Swimming. Or any of the movement types that Tumble Through supports.
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And I turn the question back to you: why shouldn't this be allowed? If it doesn't fall under TGTBT and it works RAW, what grounds do you have to disallow beyond "I don't like it"?
Sure. I'll spell it all out if you like. Though it is the same argument I have been making from the beginning and is summarized by the simple statement, "If the developers wanted Stride on the list of allowed actions, they would have put it there."
First, I note that this list of actions is not an example list. There is no categorizing rule for determining if a candidate action meets the rule and qualifies or not. There is just the explicit list of allowed actions. Since it is an explicit list, other actions - no matter how similar they are - do not qualify. Sneak does not qualify. Leading Dance does not qualify. Long Jump does not qualify.
Step by default allows 5 feet of movement. You don't provoke reactions for that movement. It doesn't require any check. Having a fly, swim, or other type of speed is irrelevant and unusable.
Leap by default allows 10 or 15 feet of movement, in both cases the distance is less than or equal to half your ground speed. Having a fly, swim, or other type of speed is irrelevant and unusable.
For either of those, you can pay for upgrades to increase the distance that you move using those actions, but it requires additional character build investment.
Tumble Through allows a Stride up to your speed and allows other movement types. It also expects that you attempt an acrobatics check, have a movement path that goes through an enemy's space, and provokes reactions for the movement from at least that enemy. That is a lot more of a drawback than the other two actions have, and that pays for and balances the additional movement distance and movement types.
I believe that it is an error that Tumble Through does not require the attempt to move through an enemy's space. The sentence in question should instead be, "During this movement, attempt to move through the space of one enemy." Allowing the movement without attempting a check and without the movement path going through the space of an enemy means that the action is not Tumble Through, it is Stride or Climb or Fly or Swim.
This error has been, up to this point, a harmless error. If a player says that they want their character to Tumble Through but not go through an enemy and not make a check that has a failure effect, the GM can allow it and silently convert the action to the appropriate simpler movement action such as Stride. Being a harmless error, it has not gotten to the top of the errata queue.
Conclusion: Allowing a version of Tumble Through that does not involve attempting to move through an enemy's space to qualify for Liturgist Sustain is the same as adding Stride, Climb, Fly, and Swim to the list of allowed actions. It allows different movement types. It allows a farther movement distance. And it does so without any balance consideration of needing an acrobatics check with a failure result, or out of necessity provoking reactions from at least one enemy. If the developers intended for Stride to be on the explicit list of allowed actions, they would have added Stride to the list. Stride is not an action that people forget exists.
I wondered if someone would rush to post that.
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Just an update Michael Sayre was on discord and said
"Or, and hear me out here, maybe those are two completely different things.
Quick Spring's problem was that it was functionally two Strides for the cost of one as a single feat.
Animist had tons of playtest feedback pointing out how quick and easy it was to get Leaps to the same functionality as Strides so the 9th-level liturgist ability is intentionally "a move action with style while you Sustain". (And as others have noted, it's not literally all Strides, because it won't work with e.g. quicken effects that let you Stride.)"
So it's raw and Rai were in fact in alignment
I'm not happy with it because this is just way too strong but I appreciate the clarity.
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If have some balance concerns with it but not the ones you have, once you can leap and sustain you effectively have movement sorted and stride is likely only a little longer.
My balance concerns is feats like elf style (you step twice and now sustain twice) and manoeuvring spell (from sixth pillar archetype it lets you lead as a free action before or after you casta two action spell which is a lot with a free sustain chucked in).
I wonder if the ability should have been siloed off in it's own action so it can't stack onto of other action enhancers.
No, I'm with you. I think this ability needs to be tweaked just slightly to not allow multiple uses in a turn. Otherwise, it's getting a lot more extra actions than the other practices and a full movement is very strong.
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It's mentioned in the Sayre quote, but Dancing Invocation allowing Tumble Through and not Stride prevents it from working with a Quickened Stride, which is a pretty easy way to get it for "free". Especially compared to the other examples given here, like Elf Step and Maneuvering Spell, which take more commitment/investment than a 3rd level spell.
Plus you can still Tumble Through in the situations where you wouldn't be able to Step/Leap, like underwater or in the air, where it would otherwise be a useless class feature.
I’m a little fuzzy on just what has been “proven”. I don’t understand how Michael’s discord quote “validates the RAW being the RAI” of the animist’s sustain ability in the OP. The quote mentions Strides, Leaps and Quick Spring but…not Tumble Through. What am I missing?
Tumble Through being a better Stride is a (generally minor) issue that has existed since the game's release. All else held equal, Tumble Through as written is strictly better than moving in most other ways, so you can simply Tumble Through all the time if you want with no drawbacks. This I think could and should have been easily solved by requiring you to try to move through the space of at least one enemy, which was already sort of implemented to rein in the Quick Spring feat, but wasn't integrated in the basic action. It's generally not too disruptive outside of specific cases like these, where it becomes very much out of line, and I don't think the argument of "this is okay because it doesn't synergize as well with a few 3rd-rank spells or 20th-level feats" really holds either.
Mechanically it's whatever but I feel like "this ability is designed to work with stride and alternate movement types because you can choose to tumble through nothing" feels like kind of awkward in terms of phrasing and design... it's technically a little bit clever, since it limits your ability to get free sustains from haste or other special actions that give strides, admittedly.
The RAW is technically explicit, but it's a little odd to put together and since Tumble Through does nothing on its own there are a significant number of people who interpret it as cheese or unintended.
I feel the reason Tumble Through gets interpreted as cheesy is because its mechanics just lead to really weird imagery: because as a baseline it lets you Stride with an additional benefit for the same action cost, it is strictly better to Tumble Through instead of any other type of movement unless you get a specific benefit tied to moving in some other way, which when applied in-game turns every encounter into a circus act where everyone's cartwheeling all over the place. The only reason this doesn't happen all the time in practice is simply because we collectively rein it in for the sake of not messing with the adventure's tone (for the most part), but Pathfinder generally does a better job of avoiding this kind of dissonance.
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I feel the reason Tumble Through gets interpreted as cheesy is because its mechanics just lead to really weird imagery: because as a baseline it lets you Stride with an additional benefit for the same action cost, it is strictly better to Tumble Through instead of any other type of movement unless you get a specific benefit tied to moving in some other way, which when applied in-game turns every encounter into a circus act where everyone's cartwheeling all over the place.
This was the same with pre-errata Cloud Jump early in the edition. After 15th level, those with Quick Jump never walked again, everyone with access was Single-action long jumping everywhere because it was strictly better.
Gave games a "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon vibe" which, If I'm honest, I was into.
On topic, I guess Animist-Acrobats are going to be a thing.
I feel the reason Tumble Through gets interpreted as cheesy is because its mechanics just lead to really weird imagery: because as a baseline it lets you Stride with an additional benefit for the same action cost, it is strictly better to Tumble Through instead of any other type of movement unless you get a specific benefit tied to moving in some other way, which when applied in-game turns every encounter into a circus act where everyone's cartwheeling all over the place. The only reason this doesn't happen all the time in practice is simply because we collectively rein it in for the sake of not messing with the adventure's tone (for the most part), but Pathfinder generally does a better job of avoiding this kind of dissonance.
There's also the mechanics of it. For the average character, Tumble Through does nothing unique except let you try to move through an enemy's space, so in this case you have characters Tumbling without doing the only thing that Tumble on its own exists for.
I'm Tumbling, but only so I can Stride with an extra benefit that normally doesn't apply to Stride, and in the process I'm not using any of the actual innate features of the Tumble action.
Even knowing that it's a 100% intentional design feature that just sounds so much like someone is trying to circumvent the rules.
There's also the mechanics of it. For the average character, Tumble Through does nothing unique except let you try to move through an enemy's space, so in this case you have characters Tumbling without doing the only thing that Tumble on its own exists for.
I think this to me is why it's a bit weird for Tumble Through to let you try to move through an enemy's space, rather than require you to. The one thing that sets it apart from Striding or any other sort of movement is that it lets you move through an enemy's space, and when you're not doing that, you're effectively just Striding, which is generally the same, occasionally worse when you factor in haste and other effects that specifically work with Stride or specific movement types, but also occasionally broken when you have feats like the pre-nerf Quick Spring that assume you'll specifically be trying to move through an enemy's space when Tumbling Through. Making the attempt to move through an enemy's space a requirement rather than an option would both avoid the thematic silliness of characters backflipping all over the place for no real reason, and proof the action much better against mechanical loopholes.
With the Liturgist, though, it sounds like the intention was always for the subclass to be able to just Sustain and move at full speed at the same time, and Tumble Through got picked because it covers every movement type under one action. In that respect, the design leans on Tumble Through being a flat-out better Stride under most circumstances.
Honestly, if that was the intent, this is a case where some clarifying text like "or Tumble Through (even if you do not attempt to pass through a creature during this Tumble)" should have been used. Just saying Tumble Through is an option and leaving it to people to assume that the intent was to support Tumbling without any actual attempt to Tumble Through anyone is wildly unintuitive.
There's also the mechanics of it. For the average character, Tumble Through does nothing unique except let you try to move through an enemy's space, so in this case you have characters Tumbling without doing the only thing that Tumble on its own exists for.
I'm Tumbling, but only so I can Stride with an extra benefit that normally doesn't apply to Stride, and in the process I'm not using any of the actual innate features of the Tumble action.
Even knowing that it's a 100% intentional design feature that just sounds so much like someone is trying to circumvent the rules.
I mean, Tumble Through doesn't actually make you tumble and the word tumble only appears in the name. Even if you enforce the flavor, you'd only be tumbling then making your check: in normal tumbling runs, you'll be running before you start your flips and i don't see why Tumble Through would be different and if you never get to the tumbling part it's just a run.
Secondly, as, again, it never mentions tumbling, it could be any graceful movement. A slide, sidestep, quickly slipping through a gap, ect... Not everyone would or should be doing triple backflips to Tumble Through. I mean, would you force someone in a wheelchair to do backflips to use Tumble Through? Or a Sacred Nagaji with their lack of legs? I think the action works fine without needing actually tumbling.
Thirdly, even if used in the traditional sense, there would be times you'd want to use Tumble Through when you think you might have to use it as you can't later convert a Stride into a Tumble Through. For instance, you have enemies you think might have Readied to block your escape. It doesn't seem off brand to go in ready to counter such a thing nor be punished if no one actually jumps in your way.
Nothing in the way Liturgist is written would make it not trigger off of subordinate actions.
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Yes, Tumble Through being a masked stride, but somehow better because you do not have to actually tumble through anything is...
But that's what the action has always been from the start. Its always been stride, swim, fly plus.
It's not cheesy to use the action to do what it says it does. Honestly all this negativity about mechanics working they way they work is only going to create a bunch of pointless time consuming rolls where players move through other creatures spaces not for a tactical value but just for the sake of apeasing meaningless convention.
The problem with Tumble Through not requiring you to tumble through anyone is that it makes it more difficult to design new Feats and Abilities that interact with actually tumbling through an opponents space.
Better design would have been Tumble Through requiring an attempt to move through a space, and a different action created for generic moving that was "one of Stride, Fly, Swim etc". It's better design because then the name of the ability would better match the actual action, which is always preferrable.
Oh well. Not where we ended up.
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There's definitely some nice stuff you can do, but as with other "combine X with movement" abilities, listing off the different ways to get free actions kind of ignores that as a dedicated spellcaster movement isn't always that important.
This came up a lot with the Gunslinger with people talking about reloads "always being free" except a lot of the times you don't care about the paired action.
Don't get me wrong it's super cool and liturgist is definitely up there, but I think that's more a problem of Seer and Shaman just being kind of lame. Seer maybe in the right kind of campaign, but Shaman is just bad.
Liturgist is definitely going to be the go-to for melee animists, but I'm not sure I hate that given how bad the melee animist's action economy is otherwise.