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Something I think is worth noting is that Gyronna, Mestama and Alhazra weren't a pantheon as such, they were just a goddess associated WITH hags and two fiendish hag demigods who formed a temporary coven to exploit the divine anomaly Nethys and Thoth tried to contain.
I can't speak to why the decision to remove all three in a single event was made, but I think some contributing factors are the OGL (Alhazra was specifically a night hag), shifting sociopolitical feelings (Gyronna's preference of recruiting wronged women to her faith and that faith's practices of sowing mistrust and terror to make communities tear themselves apart paints a f***ed up picture of abuse survivors) and a desire to finally get Pathfinder's story on hags straight after introducing their new origin myth with the three sisters of Simarron. And Mestama was kind of narratively superfluous at the best of times, considering her defining thing was that she was jealous of Gyronna's power and influence.
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(Gyronna's preference of recruiting wronged women to her faith and that faith's practices of sowing mistrust and terror to make communities tear themselves apart paints a f***ed up picture of abuse survivors)
One imagines that Gyronna's removal in in part to prevent specific clash between her and Arazni, who is basically "the Goddess of Survivors" and while she is certainly not a nice person, she believes in dignity but not remorse. Arazni recently getting a promotion would be bad for Gyronna if she wasn't elsewhere.
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If you look closely at the Inner Sea Region, you will see that it's actually full of 'exotic' places / tropes to an American guy : Galt, Taldor, Irrisen, Lands of the Linnorm Kings ...
But I kind of feel the same way about the nations. There's fantasy Egypt and fantasy Persia and fantasy China, but where's the fantasy Poland or Ireland or Germany? Why just the 'exotic' (to a white guy...) places?
Also, all of the called-out places exist. Fantasy Poland is Brevoy. Fantasy Germany includes (depending on how capacious your definition of Germany is) the River Kingdoms (fantasy post-30-Years-War, pre-Napoleon HRE), Molthune (Fantasy Prussia playing Fantasy Austria's role with respect to Fantasy Switzerland), Nirmathas (said Fantasy Switzerland), Mendev (Fantasy Teutonic and/or Livonian Order(s), complete with imperialism), and southern Korvosa (fantasy Low Countries with Magnimar being Fantasy Amsterdam/Holland and Korvosa being Fantasy Antwerp/Brabant). Sarkoris used to be Fantasy Ireland til Paizo developed it a bit.
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Also, all of the called-out places exist. Fantasy Poland is Brevoy. Fantasy Germany includes (depending on how capacious your definition of Germany is) the River Kingdoms (fantasy post-30-Years-War, pre-Napoleon HRE), Molthune (Fantasy Prussia playing Fantasy Austria's role with respect to Fantasy Switzerland), Nirmathas (said Fantasy Switzerland), Mendev (Fantasy Teutonic and/or Livonian Order(s), complete with imperialism), and southern Korvosa (fantasy Low Countries with Magnimar being Fantasy Amsterdam/Holland and Korvosa being Fantasy Antwerp/Brabant). Sarkoris used to be Fantasy Ireland til Paizo developed it a bit.If you look closely at the Inner Sea Region, you will see that it's actually full of 'exotic' places / tropes to an American guy : Galt, Taldor, Irrisen, Lands of the Linnorm Kings ...
But I kind of feel the same way about the nations. There's fantasy Egypt and fantasy Persia and fantasy China, but where's the fantasy Poland or Ireland or Germany? Why just the 'exotic' (to a white guy...) places?
That last bit should be "southern Varisia," sorry I didn't notice til the time to edit posts had expired.
I’m still confused if it’s the entirety of the Osirion Pantheon that disappeared and can no longer interact with their followers or just the Osirion gods that participated.
I would one day like clarification from Paizo on the subject. Ra is the head of the Pantheon so I can see an argument being made threat his disappearance causes the other (unmentioned) members of the pantheon to also disappear and/or disconnect from their followers.
But Apep is Ra’s enemy/opposite. Unlike Set, there’s no reason to think Apep would be divinely connected to Ra, and thus negatively affected by his absence.
(As an aside, I’ve always wondered if Apep is just Dahak by another name )
Ra, Horus, Anubis, Osiris, Maat, Isis, and Thoth are gone (though in the case of Thoth not nec to the same place for the same reasons) but what about Sobek, Apep, Set, Neith, Bes, Sekhmet, Hathor, Selket, Ptah, Khepri, Nephthys, Wadjet, and Bastet?
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Ra, Horus, Anubis, Osiris, Maat, Isis, and Thoth are gone (though in the case of Thoth not nec to the same place for the same reasons) but what about Sobek, Apep, Set, Neith, Bes, Sekhmet, Hathor, Selket, Ptah, Khepri, Nephthys, Wadjet, and Bastet?
I would assume it's the whole pantheon, because I think the motivation behind this change is "get the single Earth pantheon in the setting out of it."
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Paizo haven't stated any reason for it though and even if that is the reason, the in game reason wouldn't make sense because again, why would Apep be part of that event?
There is also that there really isn't any reason for getting pantheon out of setting if they aren't going to retcon it out of it. Because Osirion pantheon being yeeted does nothing in universe compared to keeping them around because their current presence was mostly "some old school renaissance fan style worshipers worship them plus some outliers like catfolk worshiping Bast"
...Like... If it was about that, it would be just the Bus Crash trope.
Also, there ARE in life mythology deities like Sun Wukong which aren't just named after deities like Cernunnos are. So if this is about real life connections, why bring the monkey king into 2e as a god? Or why not retcon Baba Yaga and Irrisen stuff out? (I just disagree with idea that Paizo are trying to erase real life connections, because real life Earth connections have long been part of Golarion lore)
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Dunno about whether they're removing all of them (they probably are, even if it doesn't make complete sense in this one event. Others mentioning Apep too is a much better example than the Set that I gave as to why not everyone would go there). But personally, in terms of Earth stuff on Golarion, I'm all for it. In fact, I wish we had more. The Osirian pantheon is the only one which had a presence on Earth that we know of (sans Sun Wukong or Cernunnos), but I personally don't much like "region locked" deities, and would prefer they appear wherever their domain is relevant. My problem with the Osirian deities wasn't their inclusion but how they seemed constrained within the region. This isn't solitary to them; the Tian deities seem to mainly stay in that continent, and we've only recently gotten Arcadian deities like Kazutal around too. Gets a bit into the realm of "too many deities about", but it's a kitchen sink, and I love it.
So, yeah. Earth being a part of the pathfinder universe is very cool, and I like all the aftereffects it entails. Recently saw a reddit thingy trying to theorise where Golarion is based on the in-universe information on Earth's galaxy and hypothesising it might be Andromeda, and that kind of discussion is what I find delightful about the setting.
My questions at this point are for clarification. I accept that whatever Paizo decided has been decided and set in (future) print for a while now.
Yes I want to understand the external reasons why, but barring that I at least want a semi coherent canonical reason in universe.
Perhaps the entirety of the pantheon is magically tied to Ra’s presence and without him they either fade or are also drawn in to the alternative dimension. That still leaves Apep as an unchecked divine power, and that still leaves Thoth who (while unable to reach his followers) might still be alive but hang’in with Yog Sothoth in the beyond.
Yes the latter part is headcanon, but there are still loose threads is what I’m getting at.
The 2 events (Thoth battle and Hag-battle) is also pretty epic and worthy of a commissioned art piece. It needs to be referenced in later products involving Hags, witches, Osirion, even if they decide not to feature it in an adventure/AP. We have (may or may not) just lost an entire pantheon and that should have consequences.
Hope Divine Mysteries adds clarification.
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"Many sages, as well as priests of the lost deities, claim to have seen visions of another world both like and unlike our own where the gods came to rest, but whatever and wherever that place might be, none may say."
Who is to say Ra and the rest of the Osirion pantheon originated from Earth?
They could very well have originated in Golarion and were banished to Earth just recently during the turmoil of the Godsrain.
- Iolanthi, Oracle of Time and student of Tawil at’Umr
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They could very well have originated in Golarion and were banished to Earth just recently during the turmoil of the Godsrain.
Them originating on Golarion is actually canon!
When the Keleshites invaded Osirion and functionally outlawed their worship in 1532 AR, the gods of Osirion retreated from Golarion for the land of Kemet on Earth. This date lines up with the late period of the Egyptian New Kingdom.
Ultimately, it's a weird but fun detail in Pathfinder lore that, rather than the case being that the Egyptian gods are also worshipped on Golarion, the Osiriani gods chose a similar world with humans living in a desert along a life-giving river to set up a fallback/second kingdom, and one they made their primary domain for thousands of years.
While I can somewhat understand the Pathfinder writers wanting to reduce the amount of real-life Earth religious figures in the setting, it's still a bummer to have them written out of the setting and lose a zany piece of lore like that.
so any official word yet? are they waiting a few weeks before explaining what's going on?
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so any official word yet? are they waiting a few weeks before explaining what's going on?
I would expect official word to come on or around November 20th, when Divine Mysteries is publicly released and everyone can see the full list of missing and/or dead gods.
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The official word is directly above in how they are represented in the table at the back of the book. The ones that are listed in the In Memoriam section are not worshipable going forward. The others still are (Bes for instance is listed as part of the Fortune's Fate pantheon).
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The one in memoriam section (whether they are MIA or dead) are the ones that explicitly don't grant cleric powers(and apparently its mostly just everyone listed in War of Immortals plus one new god who was introduced as having died), anyone in supplement does.
I'm unsure if memoriam section still has deity statblock info? Still yeah it seems rather clear that the rest of pantheon didn't spontaneously combust when the big ones of pantheon tried to stop the hags
Sobek, Set and buddies live!!
This makes me happy. Apep and Set make for interesting enemy deities, and maybe can fill the role that Orcus had before the latter was retconned out.
I wonder if Bes will become adopted into the Dwarf Pantheon more.
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apparently suplemental god table has "Apep, Bastet, Bes, Hathor, Khepri, Neith, Nephthys, Ptah, Sekhmet, Selket, Set, Sobek, Wadjet"
And I'm fairly sure some of those never got 2e deity stats, so yeah that adds more fuel to "Yeah this isn't some kind of weird error, they just didn't get yeeted"
apparently suplemental god table has "Apep, Bastet, Bes, Hathor, Khepri, Neith, Nephthys, Ptah, Sekhmet, Selket, Set, Sobek, Wadjet"
And I'm fairly sure some of those never got 2e deity stats, so yeah that adds more fuel to "Yeah this isn't some kind of weird error, they just didn't get yeeted"
Perhaps Apep will eat the sun as part of an Osirion AP. Apparently Shades of Blood is NOT the subject of that Stolen Fate prophesy.
Creative Director
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Perhaps Apep will eat the sun as part of an Osirion AP. Apparently Shades of Blood is NOT the subject of that Stolen Fate prophesy.apparently suplemental god table has "Apep, Bastet, Bes, Hathor, Khepri, Neith, Nephthys, Ptah, Sekhmet, Selket, Set, Sobek, Wadjet"
And I'm fairly sure some of those never got 2e deity stats, so yeah that adds more fuel to "Yeah this isn't some kind of weird error, they just didn't get yeeted"
Can confirm that neither are part of my plans for that specific potential future from Stolen Fate... it's a plot I've had in my back pocket waiting for the right time to deploy for longer than 2nd edition's been a thing but not one that I'm ready to talk about or that will be coming out within the next few years, I suspect...
Can confirm that neither are part of my plans for that specific potential future from Stolen Fate... it's a plot I've had in my back pocket waiting for the right time to deploy for longer than 2nd edition's been a thing but not one that I'm ready to talk about or that will be coming out within the next few years, I suspect...Perhaps Apep will eat the sun as part of an Osirion AP. Apparently Shades of Blood is NOT the subject of that Stolen Fate prophesy.apparently suplemental god table has "Apep, Bastet, Bes, Hathor, Khepri, Neith, Nephthys, Ptah, Sekhmet, Selket, Set, Sobek, Wadjet"
And I'm fairly sure some of those never got 2e deity stats, so yeah that adds more fuel to "Yeah this isn't some kind of weird error, they just didn't get yeeted"
That’s fair. I hope ya’ll eventually incorporate the remaining Osirion gods into the setting more fully in the future. Apep and Set need to be kept in check :p
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Or maybe we now get to see the more noble side of Set, being forced to take the mantle of leadership in a way he never expected and reckon with the new responsibility!
My first and favorite PF1 character (for RotRL) went all the way from TN (in a closet CE style) to LG under similar circumstances. Good memories.
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The official word is directly above in how they are represented in the table at the back of the book. The ones that are listed in the In Memoriam section are not worshipable going forward. The others still are (Bes for instance is listed as part of the Fortune's Fate pantheon).
What book is this stuff from? I see nothing like that in War of Immortals.
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The official word is directly above in how they are represented in the table at the back of the book. The ones that are listed in the In Memoriam section are not worshipable going forward. The others still are (Bes for instance is listed as part of the Fortune's Fate pantheon).What book is this stuff from? I see nothing like that in War of Immortals.
I think Divine Mysteries,the next Lost Omens books. It supposedly releases Nov. 20 so some subscribers might have it already.
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I think Divine Mysteries,the next Lost Omens books. It supposedly releases Nov. 20 so some subscribers might have it already.The official word is directly above in how they are represented in the table at the back of the book. The ones that are listed in the In Memoriam section are not worshipable going forward. The others still are (Bes for instance is listed as part of the Fortune's Fate pantheon).What book is this stuff from? I see nothing like that in War of Immortals.
Ugh. No wonder I'm in the dark.
Thanks.
They could very well have originated in Golarion and were banished to Earth just recently during the turmoil of the Godsrain.Them originating on Golarion is actually canon!
When the Keleshites invaded Osirion and functionally outlawed their worship in 1532 AR, the gods of Osirion retreated from Golarion for the land of Kemet on Earth. This date lines up with the late period of the Egyptian New Kingdom.
Ultimately, it's a weird but fun detail in Pathfinder lore that, rather than the case being that the Egyptian gods are also worshipped on Golarion, the Osiriani gods chose a similar world with humans living in a desert along a life-giving river to set up a fallback/second kingdom, and one they made their primary domain for thousands of years.
While I can somewhat understand the Pathfinder writers wanting to reduce the amount of real-life Earth religious figures in the setting, it's still a bummer to have them written out of the setting and lose a zany piece of lore like that.
My understanding, as someone running Mummy's Mask, is that the gods haven't been "present" in the same way that the other pantheons have been since the Age of Enthronement began when Horus directed his court to leave for their planar home(s), seeing the raising of the Starstone as symbolising the beginning of the age of humanity taking its own destiny into its hands. What "leaving" means in this context isn't clear - the gods of Golarion don't actually live on Golarion, yet that doesn't stop them granting power to clerics or answering prayers. The Osiriani pantheon was then later outlawed by the Keleshites, but they were already declining during the Pharaonic period - their departure from Golarion is why the Egyptian Old Kingdom is founded, using Earth as a fallback. And yet not being there didn't stop clerics from drawing on them for their magic. Even Nethys famously doesn't answer prayers, but nobody concluded he was dead.
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Or maybe we now get to see the more noble side of Set, being forced to take the mantle of leadership in a way he never expected and reckon with the new responsibility!
While I'm the last person in the world to be objective about that, and have enjoyed Set-the-villain in the first Conan movie, Marvel comics, Vampire the Masquerade or Judges Guild's Dark Tower adventure, (way, way) back in the day, I would also be intrigued by the idea of Set, the spear-carrying god who stood on the prow of Ra's sun barque and fought off Apep, Who Would Devour the Dawn, every single day, and was, for a time, a maat-observing god of warriors and storms, not just 'Set, who killed his brother. Twice.'
Seeing a version of Isis who seduced Thoth to learn the secrets of necromancy, created a path across Duat, between the worlds of the living and the death to bring her brother-husband back to life, and in so doing, released the curse of undeath upon the mortal world, would just be icing on the cake. :)
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Or maybe we now get to see the more noble side of Set, being forced to take the mantle of leadership in a way he never expected and reckon with the new responsibility!While I'm the last person in the world to be objective about that, and have enjoyed Set-the-villain in the first Conan movie, Marvel comics, Vampire the Masquerade or Judges Guild's Dark Tower adventure, (way, way) back in the day, I would also be intrigued by the idea of Set, the spear-carrying god who stood on the prow of Ra's sun barque and fought off Apep, Who Would Devour the Dawn, every single day, and was, for a time, a maat-observing god of warriors and storms, not just 'Set, who killed his brother. Twice.'
Seeing a version of Isis who seduced Thoth to learn the secrets of necromancy, created a path across Duat, between the worlds of the living and the death to bring her brother-husband back to life, and in so doing, released the curse of undeath upon the mortal world, would just be icing on the cake. :)
I genuinely think there's room for both, which is why I think assigning morality to gods was a bit foolhardy in the first place (admittedly, not Paizo's decision), and 2e instead listing what alignments gravitated toward them (before alignment was stripped out entirely) was a good move. There's room for both the Set who made his legitimate claim to rule before the Ennead of Ra, and was favoured to win if not for Horus and Isis cheating their way to the throne that was promised to him and stolen from their father by Osiris, and there is room for the Set who crept into the temple in the dark as the leopard to steal the corpse of Osiris again until Anubis branded him and set him howling off into the night, explaining why the leopard got its spots. Playing into the complexity of a god's nature not only honours how they were or are worshipped and regarded in real life, but it opens up storytelling potential - Set can be both antihero and villain, and so can his clerics - one might worship him as the preserver of the cosmic order, one of the Two Lords whom Thoth pacified and made peace between, another might worship him as the Lord of the North Desert who protects travellers and guards oases, and another might worship him as a god who avenges slights and takes what he wants without equivocation or apology, crushing anyone in his way, and none of that be a contradiction.
That argument could just as easily apply to fictional gods like Pharasma or Urgathoa or Sarenrae, which is one reason I'm conflicted about removing the Cult of the Dawnflower because its actions are inconsistent with a "Good" god, even if the setting is probably better off without a clumsy parallel to Jihadists. Sarenrae of all gods knows about being overzealous in what you think is a good cause, realising too late you've gone too far - just look at the Pit of Gormuz. The complexity of gods that aren't tri-omni balls of ineffability is half of the appeal of them.
Or maybe we now get to see the more noble side of Set, being forced to take the mantle of leadership in a way he never expected and reckon with the new responsibility!While I'm the last person in the world to be objective about that, and have enjoyed Set-the-villain in the first Conan movie, Marvel comics, Vampire the Masquerade or Judges Guild's Dark Tower adventure, (way, way) back in the day, I would also be intrigued by the idea of Set, the spear-carrying god who stood on the prow of Ra's sun barque and fought off Apep, Who Would Devour the Dawn, every single day, and was, for a time, a maat-observing god of warriors and storms, not just 'Set, who killed his brother. Twice.'
Seeing a version of Isis who seduced Thoth to learn the secrets of necromancy, created a path across Duat, between the worlds of the living and the death to bring her brother-husband back to life, and in so doing, released the curse of undeath upon the mortal world, would just be icing on the cake. :)
Not to plug an entirely different game on Paizo's forums, but this is exactly the type of thing Scion 2e is out there to explore. But yes, a more 3D protrayal of Set would be greatly welcomed.
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Well this is annoying. The other osirian gods indeed aren't listed in memoriam section and several of them are mentioned in list of pantheon/etc members (like Sekhmet in Faith's Flamekeeper" as possible witch patron god), but I can't find them from appendix so unless there is extra table I'm missing, they are among gods that don't have remaster updated mechanics despite still being around :p
Supposedly there's going to be a supplemental god table released sometime soon, for gods that didn't make it into the book. Some subscribers got an old version of it with the main pdf.
Supposedly. Haven’t heard anything yet and I’ve sworn off buying the book until I get my current project done.
If they’ve updated the supplemental table I’ve not heard anything and they have also yet to provide the PFS guidance document.
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Speaking of supplement, I wonder if we're also gonna get a "boon/curse" supplement for the non core deity like they did for the gods&magic book, since from what I understand they once again only gave them out for the core 20.
Even if it's a system that should be used sparingly, I find them very interesting (and a very good source of inspiration for how "godly interaction" might appear in the story), and they can create very memorable moment in an adventure.
Supposedly there's going to be a supplemental god table released sometime soon, for gods that didn't make it into the book. Some subscribers got an old version of it with the main pdf.
Do we have a source for this?
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Source is in the PFS guidance it lists the supplemental table.
Link?
I tried to find this and gave up. No supplemental table.
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Well well well :O According to Nexus, set has indeed gotten changes
"Areas of Concern Darkness, deserts, murder, storms
Divine Sanctification Can choose holy or unholy
Edicts Bring chaos to society, murder those who stand in your way, defeat your foes with personal strength and cunning, kill fiends
Anathema Permit the spread of the desert to fertile lands, refuse to fight your own battles, aid Apep or other omnicidal gods"
Just to compare his previous anathema was "Anathema Refuse to fight your own battles, destroy a soul instead of turning it to undeath"
Seconded. Obviously it doesn't need to be exactly accurate to the Eastern Roman Empire--it really shouldn't be, both because Golarion generally avoids copying history that directly and because there are lots of differences like the equivalents to Egypt and Syria not being part of it at any point--but it'd be nice to at least have more of the clothing, architecture, & other visual aspects of that period and some influences from the cultures of the Balkans and Anatolia. But I'll admit I'm heavily biased as a Byzantine Empire nerd haha.
The fun part was that I identified Taldor pretty easily as a Byzantine-expy, but in years past I always found people who'd be all "Naaaah, that's <insert other decadent historic empire>!".
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Source is in the PFS guidance it lists the supplemental table.Link?
I tried to find this and gave up. No supplemental table.
The supplemental table itself is not released yet.
Pathfinder Society Player Options live here. Scroll down to Divine Mysteries.
The following deities with problematic edicts and/or anathema:
Ashukharma (page 322)
Diomazul (page 322)
Ferrumnestra (page 306)
Hshurha (page 306)
Lalaci (page 308)
Lubaiko (web supplement)
Lurlup (page 312)
Mother Vulture (page 316)
Neshen (page 308)
Rull (page 316)
Sekhmet (web supplement)
Set (web supplement)
Sicva (page 302)
Whispering Way (page 250)