How do I maximize Double Slice from Dual Weapon Warrior?
Make two attacks and have a non-Attack action to use for your third action - either before the Double Slice or after.
If you are wanting to make 3 Strike actions during a round, I believe it is slightly mathematically better to do a regular Strike first and then Double Slice. That is a (-0, -5, -5) set of Strikes.
Doing Double Slice first means you have (-0, -0, -10). Fighter might get slightly better mileage from crits on the -0 Strikes, but most other characters getting Double Slice from Dual Weapon Warrior instead of Fighter Class feat probably won't. And for all characters, even for Fighter, the (-0, -0, -10) routine would be done better with a (-0, -0, non-Attack action) that I mentioned initially.
Double Slice is an action hog. You'll be doing it nearly every round. If you have to move, it will be move and Double Slice.
If you want to maximize Double Slice, try to have haste up as often as possible in major fights so every round is not move, double slice. Then maybe you can work Flensing Slice or some decent third action.
The dual weapon warrior in my campaign pretty much double sliced every round. Missed quite a bit with the second attack or did overkill since both attacks have to go after the same target and it was such an action hog he rarely did anything else round to round.
The dual weapon warrior in my campaign pretty much double sliced every round. Missed quite a bit with the second attack or did overkill since both attacks have to go after the same target and it was such an action hog he rarely did anything else round to round.
How did they end up missing quite often, are we speaking 50/50% of the time or was it less and just seemed like they missed a lot of the time?
The dual weapon warrior in my campaign pretty much double sliced every round. Missed quite a bit with the second attack or did overkill since both attacks have to go after the same target and it was such an action hog he rarely did anything else round to round.How did they end up missing quite often, are we speaking 50/50% of the time or was it less and just seemed like they missed a lot of the time?
I can't quantify that exactly. Against bosses, yes, they would miss quite a bit due to high AC and randomness of the dice. For example, if you have an AC 33 boss at level 9 where you will have about a +18 to 19 to hit, you need a 14 or 15 to hit. Even with flanking and a buff, you'll drop that to 11 to 12. So yes, that is a roughly 50% chance of hitting.
If you're fighting lower AC mooks, then you hit more often, but there will still be misses due to variation in dice rolls.
Then you have fights with varying levels of movement within a party doing different types of attacks.
You're using this action hog ability that pretty much locks you into its use. Does damage for one handed weapons with the marginal benefit of penetrating damage resistance together, but only applying attacks like sneak attack or something similar once for double slice and you find it's not a very ideal fighting style.
It offers no action economy. It doesn't allow any real action variation. It's main benefit is no MAP for two attacks with two weapons for two actions which has set the AC and defenses of monsters high to start with so you do end up with a 30 to 50% miss rate depending on the AC of the target even with two no MAP attacks. You get this while having to lock into a single target.
Two-weapon fighting you should do because you like the style because it's not very effective as a fighter.
1. It's action intensive. This locks you into a very focused play-style that doesn't allow for much variation for combat maneuvers or other actions.
2. It uses limited weapons that usually top out d8 weapon damage.
3. It's expensive to keep up two martial weapons fully built out, so you have to spend money on Doubling Rings. Doubling rings don't add in things like special abilities like Emblazon Armament or some other magical boost to an individual weapon.
4. No free hand for doing other things like using a potion or even opening a door.
My player also tried to use Flensing Slice, but he missed so often or had to move that he ended up rarely able to use Flensing Slice due to the action cost.
Maybe you'll have better luck with it, but my player found two-weapon fighting and Double Slice to be a very suboptimal fighting style that he never much tried again.
Rangers are better long-term two-weapon fighters, but even for them it's not the greatest fighting style.
If this is mostly for fun due to enjoying the style, give it a shot and see if you can make it fun and interesting.
I vaguely remember the double slice barbarian with two non-agile weapons charting very high against target dummies in the early days of the game.
A mount helps a lot with this sort of build, I think. You want to commit as many of your actions to melee as you can so not having to spend actions moving is good.
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Don't forget that all per-Strike enhancements also love Double Slice.
An Alchemist can easily load up an ally with 2x Alchemical Siphons which each add +1d4, and an Energy Mutagen that adds *another* 1d4 damage per hit in the 3-11 lvl range. While usually not worth it, injury poisons also get a mention.
Everything that has the trade-off of invoking more MAP after the fact pairs very nicely with Double Slice.
Double Slice is genuinely in the "super good" tier, imo.
All the shenanigans around weapon traits also really only matter if you have 0 hands open, so they gain value here.
Something like a Whip in the off-hand for Double Slice can still allow the PC to be very flexible. Though a weapon with the grapple trait may be preferable depending on other feats.
Though iirc only the Fangwire meets that 1-H need at base, but it can be the agile off-hand.
aaaaand holy crap, this is new:
Zhuazhi Bang (1d6 P) [Uncommon] [Disarm] [Grapple] [Razing] [Trip]
Not agile means it'll need to be the main hand, but if you want to retain flexibility for maneuvers and maximize Double Slice damage via getting 2x static damage pops, that's a very viable pick.
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My wife plays a Liberator Champion with Warhammer and Shield Boss. She m/c'd Fighter for Sudden Charge and Double Slice. Quite often, she opens combat with Raise Shield + Sudden Charge. Then, unless she needs to do something else, her turn is quite frequently Raise Shield + Double Slice (hammer then shield boss at -2).
It's a tool in her kit. When she is in a position to make two strikes against one target, instead of a second swing at -5 it's at -2 (because the follow-up weapon is not Agile). But it is not a focus.
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Double pick dread marshal fighter with fearsome brute can do top tier work. Find a way to move and have enemies frightened, like allies/battle cry/you're next, and you can mow things down. No tricks, just dicing things up, thus can be boring. Grab any buffs you can to your attacks, barb rage, Suli elemental assault, the special material that lets you get an extra rune, etc.
Barbarian runs into the agile issue. You either use an agile off hand weapon lowering your damage dice and your rage damage or you take a -2 to hit with offhand. Meaning your -2/-4 to a fighter. It's better now that you aren't -2 or giant -3 to AC compared to fighter, and you can get heavy armor in class to equal it out. So barb is now fairly close to fighter with a two weapon build.
I played with a paladin who did shield spike and light mace, was very good front line. Worse now depending on how you rule blade ally, but still very tanky and higher damage then striking twice with a d8 weapon so minimal investment for a situational damage boost that happens very often. Not maximizing the feat, but still very useful.
I want to point out that if you're missing regularly with Double Slice you'll fare even worse with two handed style attacks like Slam Down and etc.
After all, 2 attacks at full map will always be better than 1 attack at full map + a rider for straight up hit chance.
Not the case in play.
Slam Down uses Athletics which tops out at Legendary as well. It adds in item bonuses. It attacks Reflex saves which are often lower than AC. It helps the entire party. It has a feat upgrade which makes Slam Down automatic with no roll. It activates Reaction based attacks if the target stands up and reaction based attacks do more damage with a two-handed weapon than with a single one handed weapon as when you use Reactive Strike with a d8 weapon it will do less damage than a d12 weapon so two-weapon fighting is also weaker with Reactive Strike.
I've already played with this stuff. Slam Down is great, Double Slice is ok. I'm not going to say it won't do anything as you can have some good rounds if you hit twice, but it's not as good as Slam Down and doesn't play into the fighter's strength of building off Reactive Strike like Slam Down does.
When playing a fighter, you almost always want to build around Reactive Strike as no one is better than you are at Reactive striking.
You can still be moderately effective as a two-weapon fighter. Not every character has to be the most optimal. Sometimes you do stuff for fun.
A different class than fighter with dual weapon warrior may maximize double slice better. A barbarian build might be worthwhile as I haven't tried Double Slice with a barbarian as I prefer a big weapon with a barb.
Or some weird alchemist bestial mutagen build like I've seen posted.
Ehn, Slam Down (Knockdown pre remaster) has never been great. If you hit the first attack, you then get to trip without MAP. It's not bad, but it's nothing to write home about. Certainty a playable option.
The improved feat (Crashing Slam) however is excellent. Free critical trip with improved damage on a hit.
Does share some of the same awkwardness of Double Slice where you end up dropping the foe on the first attack or need an action for something else etc.
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Here's a lvl 6 Dual Weapon 2x Trident using Barbarian I have in PFS. Part of the scheme was avoiding the awkward first round of needing to move and rage by using Dual Thrower, with Raging Thrower, to Rage and double throw on round 1 in an attempt to maximize the # of potential rage hits.
Of course with the remaster that's no longer necessary.
Character has not felt exceptional, but is fun having a fairly unique fighting style and is reasonably component. Has struggled to have a good 3rd action once into the combat and sucks at non outdoors related skill challenges.
I'm not dying to rebuild or otherwise be done with them, but I wouldn't write a guide about how great the style is either.
I want to point out that if you're missing regularly with Double Slice you'll fare even worse with two handed style attacks like Slam Down and etc.
After all, 2 attacks at full map will always be better than 1 attack at full map + a rider for straight up hit chance.
Not the case in play.
Slam Down uses Athletics which tops out at Legendary as well. It adds in item bonuses. It attacks Reflex saves which are often lower than AC. It helps the entire party. It has a feat upgrade which makes Slam Down automatic with no roll. It activates Reaction based attacks if the target stands up and reaction based attacks do more damage with a two-handed weapon than with a single one handed weapon as when you use Reactive Strike with a d8 weapon it will do less damage than a d12 weapon so two-weapon fighting is also weaker with Reactive Strike.
I've already played with this stuff. Slam Down is great, Double Slice is ok. I'm not going to say it won't do anything as you can have some good rounds if you hit twice, but it's not as good as Slam Down and doesn't play into the fighter's strength of building off Reactive Strike like Slam Down does.
When playing a fighter, you almost always want to build around Reactive Strike as no one is better than you are at Reactive striking.
You can still be moderately effective as a two-weapon fighter. Not every character has to be the most optimal. Sometimes you do stuff for fun.
I also have experience with both and I (and more importantly math and common sense) completely disagree:
If you miss with Slam down, you don't even get to roll the Athletics. Describing the effect of a HIT, which is what your paragraph is about, completely misses the point that your comment was that you "miss all the time", for which you have much lower chance to actually Hit with Slam compared to Hit with Double Slice.
The "case in play" is 100% that Double Slice is the most CONSISTENT damage dealing way, while two-handed weapon...
I told you why and you claim math and common sense and yet can't figure it out because you are focusing on this one thing without looking at everything I illustrated as to why Slam Down is better. This shouldn't even be a discussion if you have experience with both. It really shouldn't.
Double Slice does damage. That's it. Done.
Slam Down if you hit does damage, allows a trip attempt and eventually becomes an automatic trip if you hit.
Trip knocks the target the prone with all added benefits to yourself and your party as well as penalizing the creature.
I'm going to stop there. You should know why it's a better fighting style if you have experience as you claim.
Slam Down is a far more effective fighting style which works better with a party and a lot of other abilities where as Double Slice is just a damaging attack.
Why you want to focus on the hit chance I mentioned which is not relevant to why Slam Down is better is an attempt to what? Argue they are equivalent? They aren't. Never will be. The fighter and even barb who focuses on a Slam Down build will perform in nearly every way in a superior fashion as they level up.
Consistent average to bad single target damage is nothing to aspire to.
I think another wedge in this discussion is that one is presuming and factoring Reactive Strikes into the equation, while the other is attempting to compare just the two different attacks.
In that most "apple to apple" comparison, I can see why Double Slice is considered "better."
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However, I do agree that in the context of the game itself, even without Reactive Strikes, the value of tripping is so high that the comparison is lopsided.
Double Slice is one of top feats to be sure, but a MAP 0 Strike is just generally inferior to a MAP 0 Trip.
Because it invokes MAP, the designers needed Trip to be competitive vs a Strike for the melee-reach action to ever be attempted, so it's understandable that they might have made it too good.
Notable is that Trip can't stack, and while that's generally a good design safety measure against being OP, I think one issue is that the debuff cost of remaining Prone is too harsh, and it's too non-viable to remain Prone vs a Trip happy PC. Trip also has no resource nor cooldown, and comparing it to other actions like Demoralize or Bon Mot kinda shows how insane Trip is.
While Trip does less damage on paper, denying actions to a foe (especially in a manner that stacks with Slow), is kinda the best thing you can do in the system to twist the damage equation. You trade both yours and the foe's actions, so while you do damage slower, your allies still have theirs, and have an even easier time thanks to the debuff.
Even the value added to multi-turn combat effects (how often have you seen foes use sustain spells?) is a real benefit in Trip's favor.
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That said, presenting the exception is helpful for understanding why that's so generally true. If you face an encounter with a lot of fodder foes, I'm talking like a named NPC and 6 mooks (vs a 4 PC party), the value represented by debuffing & stealing 1 action from a mook is comfortably below the benefit of just hitting twice in hopes of dropping the foe ASAP.
In that scenario, I'd rather use Double Slice.
Thanks to finally seeing an encounter like that in an AP, I can say how crazy rare it is to come across.
As soon as the number of foe actors decreases, and their total action number drops closer to the PCs, the value of Trip skyrockets again.
Hence, a MAP 0 Trip is almost always the better tool to have than a MAP 0 Strike.
If the same PC with Slam Down has Reactive Strikes, while still behind, it greatly catches up to Double Slice in the raw damage comparison.
...the other notable difference is that the "map 0 trip" requires you to first hit with your map 0 attack.
the 2nd map 0 attack of double slice, doesn't. it'll always happen.
That's basically why Double slice is more consistent.
And yes, hands down, Tripping is better than another attack, it's just that it will not trigger as much as the second attack from double slice will.
basically:
with double slice you are almost guaranteed some good damage.
with slam down you will have a range between doing absolutely nothing (hit missing) and great effects (both hit and trip hits).it's not a question of "which is stronger". Both excel at what they are supposed to do. It's just that it's vastly different what that is.
Double slice is consistency, Slam down is better effect but much more inconsistent.
p.s.
in the case of the fighter specifically, I've seen a high level fighter with Double Slice tearing through enemies not just because of the damage, but also due to Crit Effect runes. When you have 2 map 0 attacks on a fighter, the chance to crit is considerably higher, and on higher level, when you have stuff like greater crushing runes, rooting, fearsome, and etc you can really load up the target on conditions.
Yup, the better the PC's Strike, the more weight in favor of Double Slice. And Weapon Specializations crit effects having the potential to deny foe actions is value that needs be considered. But still need to be careful about assuming all the stars aligning for the best Striker to keep the discussion honest.
There's a reason Double Slice is a L1 feat, while Slam Down is L4.
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In comparison to Strikes, Athletics is easy to maximize for all PCs, regardless of chassis.
Someone like an Alchemist with no feat nor feature support for melee Strikes, a below martial accuracy, and a big desire for an open hand, is an easy example case for Slam Down > Double Slice.
Slam Down doesn't even require weapon strikes, making it unarmed compatible.
Thlipit Contestant granting Slam Down outside of the 2-H specialist Mauler is actually a very big deal for a lot of PCs, especially because being able to upgrade to Improved Knockdown at L12 means that auto-Trip is available for L11-20 APs with no real growing pains.
It's honestly a great way to "nerf" Fighter by letting others willing to spend the budget then obtain those (kinda absurd) feats.
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Its kind of weird to even think in terms of a twohanded fighter getting the benefit of trip they have to apply and a two weapon fighter not getting the benefit of a tripped or flanked or grabbed ect enemy that another player set uo for them.
The better comparison is always one where the team is doing the debuff your not.
So if your twohanded slam your the character everyone is counting on to trip.
If your two weapon your not, someone else is. They play different roles in the party.
But comparing damage when the enemy is already tripped for the dual weapon fighter to the not yet tripped enemy for the twohanded fighter is the right comparison because thats ideally the situation they will be in when played right.
In fact to really compare them put them on the same team as the group's front line martials.
Dual fighter will wait for twohanded to go first, position and trip. Then dual positions and dual strikes. Then enemy gets up and both whack.
Compare that round.
This thread is about making Double Slice work. It's not as good as a Slam Down build regardless of how many people scream it's better or equivalent. It's not, never will be. Slam Down is one of the very top builds for a martial in the game.
I explained why Double Slice is not great even if shroudb wants to ignore everything else I wrote and try to win an argument by focusing on one aspect that I answered because I was asked.
I'll state it again:
1. You miss quite often with Double Slice. Why is this a problem? Because a a few of your abilities, specifically Flensing Slice keys off both attacks hitting. One miss can short circuit other feats you pick up.
2. The style doesn't have good action economy. It's a very locked in style so whenever you have to do anything else like move or cast or use a defensive ability, you're locked into double slice. Not much else you can do.
3. You lack a free hand to use potions, scrolls, open doors, or use abilities that require a free hand without the defensive benefits of a shield or the offensive benefits of a bigger weapon die.
4. A lot of martials like to open fights with something like Sudden Charge which allows one attack at the end of a double move charge. A two-handed weapon works better with this feat and a single weapon does less damage.
5. Dual Weapon Blitz provokes Reactive Strikes.
6. Reactive Strikes are with a single weapon, generally your D8 weapon. Two-weapon warrior doesn't set opponents up for Reactive Strike very well.
I recorded damage for a Dual Weapon Warrior using Double Slice and it was middle tier damage. It wasn't a very versatile build. It did not build off Reactive Strike well. The crits were weak using a d8 or d6 weapon though two falcatas or two picks likely help this some.
It's still a viable fighting style. I recommend thinking about what you want to do. If you want to be a good two-weapon fighter, I think the ranger is better myself due to volume of attacks at higher level with an overall better chance to hit. If you want to run up to a target, swing twice with Double Slice over and over and over and over again, then I guess enjoy.
My player found the Dual Weapon Warrior Double Slice fighting style disappointing after using it for ten levels. The damage was middle tier. It lacked the big crit fun of a big weapon and didn't allow him to do much else but Double Slice from round to round. Haste slightly improved this when it was one allowing a bit more flexibility, but it's a very limited fighting style that feels repetitive as you level.
The ranger two-weapon fighter has much better action economy and allows for more variation in play-style.
Think the character out, what you want to do with it, and imagine how rounds will play out. Then build around your vision of what you want the character to do.
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Deriven seems to be operating under the assumption that the character is a Fighter and is the only one participating in the fight.
No, I am not.
The OP asked about experience with building a Dual Weapon Warrior building off Double Slice. I stated I have only seen the fighter use this Archetype. So I am stating the experience with the Dual Weapon Warrior on the fighter chassis.
My other posts clearly show I have no idea how well this will work for a barbarian or another class.
All I know for certain is Double Slice is a repetitive action hog of an attack sequence. I've clearly illustrated why with feats I've seen used from the archetype.
If they want to try it with a barb or another class, I have no experience with that and cannot speak to it.
How do I maximize Double Slice from Dual Weapon Warrior?
This depends on what the base class is going to be and how double slice fits.
How much of your action economy in a given fight is going to go towards using double slice depends on any of the other roles your character is capable of, your teams needs, and you as a player also want to do.Like the cleric in my group has dual weapon warrior dedication with a scimitar(diety weapon) and a sickle for the moment. between level 2 when they picked up the dedication to level 3 they have used it one time. hitting with the scimitar missing with the sickle. As a cleric they have just had so many other options to use per turn and using double slice often meant committing the entire 3 action turn to getting into position then using it. Sustaining bless also makes very few opportunities to use it becasue of the need to move.
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This is such a weird thread. Both of these builds are great and it's like watching people argue with each other over what's more great.
I've seen both in action. They were both effective and the people playing them had fun.
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This is such a weird thread. Both of these builds are great and it's like watching people argue with each other over what's more great.
I've seen both in action. They were both effective and the people playing them had fun.
I said as much earlier. Not everything should be about perfect optimization. Sometimes you can do things for fun because it looks cool and is effective enough.
Even I don't optimize all the time. Sometimes I just make characters for fun, even though my mind feels like perturbed when I am playing a suboptimal character. I quash that power gamer part of my mind to play the fun character.
What's wrong with a melee character using a gauntlet as his second hand weapon? Yes, it is a d4 weapon instead of a d6, but it's agile and still leaves you with an open hand.
I do this all the time with gauntlet, bladed gauntlet, and similar weapons. Particularly useful with hand 1+ weapons, such as bows.