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No matter how you flavor it, it would be an Animal.
And that's extremely bad thematically for an Alchemist. Being FORCED to have an Animal familiar.
Dude, this just is outright lying.
The Feat providing the base "animal" familiar is not a limitation. It's not being FORCED to have an animal-themed familiar.
This is getting absurdly dishonest.
Any Alchemist could choose the construct trait if they really wanted to spend a f.ability on that mechanic. I'd imagine most wanted to take the theming provided by the Feat's text, but explicitly preferred the mechanics of the base familiar.
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Not only does forcing the construct trait genuinely prevent its removal, but it also causes conflict with any other trait-type f.ability from being selected.
No alchemist can create their familiar out of concentrated elemental essences.
No alchemist can use forbidden secrets to stitch and animate an alchemical undead familiar.
No alchemist can have their backstory include a deal w/ a dragon that let them use its blood in the creation of a dragon-trait familiar.
But every one of those possibilities was there with the old familiar feat, and is now prevented with the new one.
It is insane that I have to explicitly spell this out.
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This inarguable loss of options is why I'm so quick to criticize the new Feat not having the trait be optional.
You seem to be fully aware of the issue I'm trying to convey, but are simply refusing to admit there are objective, indisputable, negatives and downsides to forcing the construct trait into every alchemical familiar, including retroactively.
You have refused to actually engage with my core point of criticism, the lack of the trait being optional. The fact that this new change forces the construct trait is a bad thing that limits the Alchemist in ways the old Feat did not.
It outright breaks every existing (generic) alch familiar that was using any type-trait other than construct.
Not only have you repeatedly ignored this actual core of my argument, you have argued against things that were never there.
And that's extremely bad thematically for an Alchemist. Being FORCED to have an Animal familiar.
Yes, it would be bad if a class were forced to only have one specific type of familiar. Making a counter-claim that is obviously true and agreeable, but was never being disputed in the first place, is strawmanning.
This particular attempt at a strawman was so inept that it accidentally agrees with the core issue you have refused to engage with, hence why I called you dishonest/arguing in bad faith. Swap animal for construct and you have the reality of the new alch familiar feat. You have literally agreed with my core criticism of the new feat by accident.
And as soon as it was called out, you instead shifted to complaining that the same f.ability cost across the system was too expensive to get the thing you personally liked, and that desire somehow justified forcing the selection onto everyone.
Absurd.
I personally loved my first homuncular alch familiar, and even integrated it being a slightly malformed and "incomplete homunculus" into the PC's backstory and characterization as someone who was too eager to prove they could, and failed to think through the ramifications.
I'm someone who likes croutons, but is trying to explain that forcing everyone to eat those croutons is obviously a stupid thing to do, especially when they are used to salads without them.
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In response to your accusation of me "shifting goalposts", I still consider the addition of the construct trait a very significant nerf, but as there are upsides, such as the immunities, that's technically a matter of opinion.
As I suspect you are presently closed to any sort of honest evaluation of the construct trait from a buff/nerf perspective, I consider that point a lost cause.
Hence my focus on the core issue, that it is unarguably a huge new thematic and mechanical restriction on the alchemical familiar to force the construct trait.
I cut a post for harassment and baiting and a response quoting it. If this conversation cannot continue civilly, this thread will be locked.
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What I don't understand is why they choose 'construct' of all things. A homunculus has the theming 'through alchemy you created life', spontaneous biogenesis, life from nothing etc. and yet they choose the only trait that's completely the opposite of the flavor.
The more I dig into the new Advanced Alchemy and Versatile Vails the more problems I see. Because you don't craft AAs in batches anymore, you can't fully buff your team 24/7, not without sacrificing your max versatile vials by reapplying them every 10 mins even then you can only have 2-3 buffs. Also, there are A LOT of alchemical items with more than 10 min duration that are simply not worth the 1 out of possibly 8-16 (with 2 feats) AAs that you have:
-Antidotes, Antiplagues
-Most Contact, Inhale, Ingest Poisons
-Most Bombs (I get that there's VVs for these but some aren't worth the VVs/Action either)
If you wanted to buff your party of 4 with antiplague which lasts for 24 hours you'd need ALMOST HALF your AA supply. I get that the old infused reagents got you 60+ items per day and that's absurd but this just doesn't look sustainable.
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The more I dig into the new Advanced Alchemy and Versatile Vails the more problems I see. Because you don't craft AAs in batches anymore, you can't fully buff your team 24/7, not without sacrificing your max versatile vials by reapplying them every 10 mins even then you can only have 2-3 buffs. Also, there are A LOT of alchemical items with more than 10 min duration that are simply not worth the 1 out of possibly 8-16 (with 2 feats) AAs that you have:
-Antidotes, Antiplagues
-Most Contact, Inhale, Ingest Poisons
-Most Bombs (I get that there's VVs for these but some aren't worth the VVs/Action either)If you wanted to buff your party of 4 with antiplague which lasts for 24 hours you'd need ALMOST HALF your AA supply. I get that the old infused reagents got you 60+ items per day and that's absurd but this just doesn't look sustainable.
In some ways I think this is a necessary trade-off with Alchemists getting a lot more in-the-moment flexibility. Particularly in exploration mode, where you can pull out any of your many known items at zero notice and regenerate the vial almost-instantly. Previously you might afford a couple of reagents for high-significance actions, but now you can be much more liberal in your usage, comparing to Rogues and Investigators with their large numbers of skills and skill feats they can draw upon. Spellcasters wish they had this flexibility.
Overall I think that's winning trade, but there's certainly a bunch of long-term buffing you do lose, which was previously one of those things the Alchemist was best-in-the-game at. That's not an easy change. There are also a good number of exploration mode items that just don't work with the 10 minute limit that you also won't know to prepare from your daily pool, so it's not a universal win on that front either. I don't know when I'm going to need to preserve a corpse ASAP with Timeless Salts, for example.
I think there's going to be a whole lot of existing Alchemists flicking through AoN to figure out what they can/can't do, and trying to understand the best use of their dailies. I know I'm going to be assembling a list of items that got broken by this change, at least.
(I'm not sure by what you mean by bombs that would've been worth AA reagents but not QA vials, particularly now Quick Bomber's been buffed. Either it's the best bomb you can pick in the moment or it's not, right?)
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(I'm not sure by what you mean by bombs that would've been worth AA reagents but not QA vials, particularly now Quick Bomber's been buffed. Either it's the best bomb you can pick in the moment or it's not, right?)
After you throw your QA +additive bomb, is it worth quick bombing another bomb with no additives for the cost of a VV? You used to be able to throw raw bombs from your daily prep batches or perpetuals but now its either VVs or Quick Vials. Also, I noticed with the way they changed how you know all versions of an alchemical item (lesser, moderate, greater & major) coupled with alchemists "not having any weapons", You do have some gold for permanent consumables.
After you throw your QA +additive bomb, is it worth quick bombing another bomb with no additives for the cost of a VV? You used to be able to throw raw bombs from your daily prep batches or perpetuals but now its either VVs or Quick Vials.
(I'm not sure by what you mean by bombs that would've been worth AA reagents but not QA vials, particularly now Quick Bomber's been buffed. Either it's the best bomb you can pick in the moment or it's not, right?)
Ah, that's fair. The VVs let you go all-out in a fight without worrying about resource cost, but it's a resource pool with basically no scaling so your endurance at lv1 is almost the same as at lv15. So I can see the worry that at higher levels you'd more often find yourself not burning through items as fast as before.
The loss of infinite skunk bombs does sting too, particularly since this is a support class, though hopefully most fights are short enough that on average I won't notice.
Also, I noticed with the way they changed how you know all versions of an alchemical item (lesser, moderate, greater & major) coupled with alchemists "not having any weapons", You do have some gold for permanent consumables.
Toxicologist... once metaphorically the poorest subclass... now literally the poorest subclass...
I think daily advanced alchemy bombs use case are a couple or few for insurance against running out of VVs in a long fight. A frost bomb or bottled lightning without additive may not do better damage than a QV, but it still has the debuff. A skunk bomb still does sicken/slow.
Glad so see some of the concerns about new problems getting some brainstorming.
With how taxing it will be to throw VV bombs, I've been looking hard for evergreen fallback routines, and the little d6 QVs are not it.
With a Returning weapon or Handwraps as my actual bottom baseline, I'm having trouble coming up with something that wont break my item budget but can supplement that when I've got 2A instead of just 1.
Due to hard-crafted items not scaling DC, but prep items do, I'm honestly going to give the Sun Dazzler another try.
- One daily prep tube will have its listed DC scale for re-loadable all-day use
- Uses 3gp L1 item for ammo
- 1A activate
- dazzles on success, blind on failure, worth doing instead of a MAP Strike for 2+ foes
Main issue is that it is a friend unsafe cone, and the moment I consider something like a sense-dulling hood, the whole point of being resource-friendly is gone.
Well, really, the bigger issue is that whenever I have 2A for a Strike, I don't think any alchemy item competes with a stack of True Strike scrolls that my familiar can easily relay to me now that I'm stuck mostly using Q-Alch in combat. Or compete with a Jolt Coil zap. Ugh. It's really sad that we are STILL stuck struggling to beat 2-target EA when being resource-thrifty.
Big agree on Skunks now becoming super-precious due to needing them infused, and I agree that hoping for a lucky throw with a 10gp "on hit" bomb can be worth it when at MAP (sometimes). Especially if it does a persistent dmg type your team otherwise lacks.
Good news about bombs still jumping from L3 --> L11 is that as your level goes up, the gp cost remains static. Around L8 or so, it'll definitely be worth it to craft/buy a backup bundle of L3 bombs w/ no DC.
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I was really, really hoping for some sort of "bomb glove," or anything that would give us some token scaling to make up for the lack of runes on bombs, but after this much time has passed with the .pdfs out in the wild, I think it's safe to say nothing like that exists.
Now that only Bombers can even do proper chip damage on miss (and even they lost infinite skunks as a fallback debuff), it's a big albatross to be stuck with these "free" QV bombs that may only be boost-compatible with the oddball cross-class like Gravity Weapon.
And thanks to the improved Quick-Bomber + Double Brew combo, we really are stuck with them.
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I've been trying to figure out the "point" of the Toxicologist's field vial action with a friend, and we're both stumped, so I thought I'd ask if anyone here has ideas.
To recap: for 1 action, you make a quick vial, and for 1 action you apply it to your weapon like it's an injury poison. On the next strike with that weapon before the end of your turn, you also deal the vial bomb's initial damage (no splash). In other words, you take 3 actions to do a single strike, and if it hits you do 1d6 extra damage per weapon die. If it missed the effect is lost. Since it's not an actual poison with a save, it doesn't interact with any of your other features or feats except the 1-action-to-poison and the resistance bypass.
The damage just doesn't seem good enough to make it appealing. You start with it at lv1, so it should be useful then, right? Well, it's just about better than triple-attacking with a dagger on 0 Str, sure. But the damage-per-action of double-attacking with a dagger is about the same, so it's only worth it if you've really got nothing else worth doing in your turn. And you need some reason to not just chuck a vial bomb + strike for 3 actions instead, which has better damage. Maybe it's melee, you have flanking, and don't want to splash yourself + allies?
If you have Quick Bomber, of course the damage from a triple vial bomb throw does better. (Don't think about what happens when Bomber starts using Int for splash damage...) What if you took a high-Str low-Dex build and can't throw bombs? Then you'll still do better swinging multiple times to add your Str repeatedly.
What if you spent all your vials on prebuffing, and now you want to hang back outside bomb range and snipe? If you're using a 1h crossbow, then it takes 4 actions to make the attack. This gives you 2 attacks at 0 MAP over 2 turns for 3d6, which improves over 2 attacks at 0 MAP and 1 at 5 MAP. Or, you could use a 2h crossbow and get as much or more damage from the improved die size. If you picked up bows from ancestry or archetype feats, then their triple-attack is also better DPR than one Toxi-shot.
At level 11 it upgrades to also do the bomb's splash damage as persistent damage. I.e. 1 persistent damage per die. That's nice, but then you look at the martials and realise that by this point your 3-action is doing as much damage as their 1-action. Is this damage really the best use of your actions?
(If the idea of adding d6 + persistent damage to a weapon strike for 2 actions sounds familiar, you may have seen a Magus cast Gouging Claw spellstrikes before. Only, at lv11 the Toxi is adding 2d6 + 2 while the Magus adds 7d6 + 7. Of course, I don't expect the Toxi to be outblasting the Magus, of course. But, wow.)
At level 17 you start getting a quick vial for free each turn, but that's level 17. And you can't benefit from producing quick vials during Double Brew the way a Chirurgeon or Mutagenist can, since it's too action intensive (and needs you to have a weapon in-hand to poison).
I don't need this to be amazing or anything, I'm just trying to answer, when would I ever want to use this? When would it be worth me remembering it exists? And so far I've only got the most marginal situations that don't seem worth the effort.
(I also know Mutagenist didn't get a great deal either, but at least it's got something going on with Double Brew by level 9...)
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Note that Alchemical Goggles no longer give an item bonus to attack that’s redundant with the inherent bomb (or quicksilver mutagen) bonus. Now they give +1/2/3 item bonus damage to bomb splash on a miss.
Yeah, that change is kind of interesting. Still not changing my plan though... Don't bother with Greater Goggles, keep the Lesser around until L12 and Uncanny Bombs. (The main appeal of Alchemist's Goggles for me has always been the cover mitigation.)
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I overall like the new changes for alchemist I think a couple tweaks may be needed. Currently the tox and mutagenists quick vial thing seem problematic to use action wise. Tox takes an action to make the poison an attack to apply it and so you have one shot to make the strike with it. Mutagenist is a couple actions to mitigate the downside of the mutagen for a moment. I don't see anybody using the mutagenist one the drawbacks are not nearly as bad as they once were and thats a lot of actions for a very short reduction in what downside remains.
I think all of the options should have something like quick bomber. Where you can quick alchemy and do a thing. If you could quick alchemy+ apply poison for one action that makes the tox one a lot more viable. For mutagenist it could be something like quick alchemy and drink so it only takes one action to trigger that effect.
The only thing I can think of to make Tox FVs work is, like it's always been for Alchs, is to find ways to bypass that horrendous action cost.
* Keep a VV in a Retrieval Belt. Any time you have 2A for a Strike, you can spend 1A to pre-amp the damage. This method would/should have had the justification of the poison remaining on whiff, but the FV use kills the effect at the end of the round, whether it's a "proper" VV or a insta- QV. Unless that gets errated, this is here to show how dire / bad the Tox FV is even when supported by a literal free action draw that burns a 10-min resource. This 1A Activate will likely be used by Tox, but with actual 10-min crafted (inhaled) poisons or other items.
* Familiar: Poison Reservoir + Lab Assistant. If your GM is permissive, they will let the f.ability enable the familiar to apply poisons more generally, not just from their body's reservoir. This makes Lab Assistant a possible pairing. A Command: [Lab Assistant: QV] + [apply FV] will let you buff the weapon for 1A. This method involves no hand cost to the Tox, but the benefit is still quite bad. Not sure on the math, but this also must compete against a non-buffed Strike, then a Quick Bomber w/ a QV as a 2nd MAP attack.
* Familiar: Poison Reservoir + Lab Assistant + Independent + Alchemical Chart. Same GM gimmie of using poisons needed, but this is the only method that is genuinely a pure positive. Familiar brews up a QV on turn 1, then applies it to your weapon on turn 2 for 0 action cost to the Alchemist thanks to Independent. Note that this requires 4 f.abilities and the familiar's other hand to be holding an item (Manual Dex).
* Double-Brew's second item: Nope, can't do it. Double brew needs 2H, and Tox must both wield the weapon & hold the injury poison. By needing weapons to carry their poisons, Tox cannot reasonably use Double Brew at all.
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I do not say all that as a real recommendation, but as a demonstration of just how badly the current wording of the Alch's new rules makes the Tox FV as useless as it could possibly be (like all but the Bomber's FVs currently are).
Don't forget that the Tox FV use classifies this on-hit damage as an injury poison, meaning it even takes away the opportunity cost of another injury poison, and is incompatible w/ Quick Draw builds.
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Has anyone seen news of what happened with Enduring Alchemy?
Using Quick Alchemy at all was a bad prospect for non-Bombers, so it used to be a dead Feat. Now that we're forced to Quick Alchemy, a Feat that can add 1/2 a turn before those items become unusable may be worth the slot. Even then, the old Feat was so garbage, it was limited to elixirs & tools only. Honestly, spending a Class Feat to allow all Q-Alch items to persist a full minute would not at all be balance-breaking, but with more and more clarity on just how screwed the alch is looking, I'm not getting my hopes up.
Note that Alchemical Goggles no longer give an item bonus to attack that’s redundant with the inherent bomb (or quicksilver mutagen) bonus. Now they give +1/2/3 item bonus damage to bomb splash on a miss.
That's an odd change. It once again benefits Bombers primarily, but can be a loss for anyone interested in throwing low tier crafted bombs. And Bombers were already the most suited alch to use Quicksilvers, so they really do have the most to gain and the least to lose from that change.
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Using cheap L1 bombs was most helpful when you had a party member able to gain extra benefits from a specific condition, but throwing little 3 gp bombs for 1A and hoping for the hit effect was genuinely good (shout-out to Glue (and Goo) bombs, genuinely great for this).
Especially for Chiurgeons, the most likely alch to not use MAP 0 for a turn otherwise.
As is on-theme for the Remaster changes, even something as subtle as this goggles change benefits Bombers the most, while complicating things for the others.
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* Double-Brew's second item: Nope, can't do it. Double brew needs 2H, and Tox must both wield the weapon & hold the injury poison. By needing weapons to carry their poisons, Tox cannot reasonably use Double Brew at all.
You can with a free hand weapon: so Gauntlet, Knuckle Duster and Spiked Gauntlet out of the box.
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Just a general reminder that both Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy now only allow the alchemist to create consumables. So you cannot create an infused sun dazzler after all.
Yup, the consumable requirement is there on Advanced Alchemy too.
What the actual f!+~ Paizo.
I've only had one party member ever get a permanent Collar, and it was really nice to save gp for a few levels via infused Collars until the 100gp cost was less painful.
Now more than ever, spending a daily infused item on something like a Sun Dazzer or Collar would be a genuine & engaging cost-benefit decision.
I am becoming more and more surprised (& disillusioned) at just how much Paizo went out of their way to chain and restrain the Alchemist with this remaster.
* Double-Brew's second item: Nope, can't do it. Double brew needs 2H, and Tox must both wield the weapon & hold the injury poison. By needing weapons to carry their poisons, Tox cannot reasonably use Double Brew at all.You can with a free hand weapon: so Gauntlet, Knuckle Duster and Spiked Gauntlet out of the box.
Ah, I forgot about Spiked Gauntlet, thank you, that's a great tool for a Tox to keep in mind, especially if you modify it w/ an Injection Reservoir.
I'm pretty sure it's raw to fill those with healing elixirs, btw. And use them for 1A on allies. This might get a lot more use if all alchs can dedicate VV budget to preload them with healing elixirs.
This weapon can be filled with a liquid, usually an injury poison. Immediately after a successful attack with the weapon, you can inject the target with the loaded contents with a single Interact action. (If the target is willing, the injection takes only 1 Interact action total.) Refilling the weapon with a new substance requires 3 Interact actions and uses two hands.
Any Alchemist that doesn't have a piece of equipment occupy their hand slot could now wear two spiked gauntlets pre-loaded if the GM allows the gimme of re-making and loading the 10-min VVs.
(This used to compete with Gloves of Storing, an unexpected boon of the OGL shift to the Retrial Belt)
Knuckles and plain Gauntlet are B weapons, so that leaves Spiked Gauntlet to apply the poisons.* Double-Brew's second item: Nope, can't do it. Double brew needs 2H, and Tox must both wield the weapon & hold the injury poison. By needing weapons to carry their poisons, Tox cannot reasonably use Double Brew at all.You can with a free hand weapon: so Gauntlet, Knuckle Duster and Spiked Gauntlet out of the box.
Ah that's right, it has to be piercing or slashing doesn't it. I use poison so infrequently I forgot.
Has anyone seen news of what happened with Enduring Alchemy?
It went unmentioned in the BadLuckGamer comprehensive video, so I think it's safe to assume it's unchanged. Meaning we can't take that quick vial from Double Brew over to the next turn.
Knuckles and plain Gauntlet are B weapons, so that leaves Spiked Gauntlet to apply the poisons.
I think it's worth noting that this is a 1d4 agile weapon, with no finesse trait. So if you want to hit with it, you'll need to invest in Str, and then your "power" strike is running off a smaller die than you'd use otherwise.
Any Alchemist that doesn't have a piece of equipment occupy their hand slot could now wear two spiked gauntlets pre-loaded if the GM allows the gimme of re-making and loading the 10-min VVs.
(This used to compete with Gloves of Storing, an unexpected boon of the OGL shift to the Retrial Belt)
Another use is to stick your weapon runes on the gauntlet, even if you're Dex, then use doubling rings to swap between different melee weapons, potentially having multiple pre-poisoned, or using an agile weapon to land poison and a non-agile one for better damage.
Something else I thought of to get around the action cost of setting up Double Brew: having a familiar with Independent+Manual Dexterity that uses its actions to either take the weapon from your hand or put it back. So if Toxi starts empty-handed with a familiar holding a weapon, they can either Quick Bomber Double Brew (and incur MAP) or Double Brew and drop the item for someone else to pick up and use later, have the familiar put a weapon in their hand for free, poison it for their second action, then make one Strike for their third.
I think it's worth noting that this is a 1d4 agile weapon, with no finesse trait. So if you want to hit with it, you'll need to invest in Str, and then your "power" strike is running off a smaller die than you'd use otherwise.
Taking Archer Dedication gets you a Gauntlet Bow for ranged attacks and Unconventional Weaponry can pick up Bladed Gauntlet, Tekko-Kagi or Wrist Launcher for free-hand Dex to hit options.
I love seeing all this strategizing/brainstorming.
For my L10 Chiurgeon that's most likely going to play Stolen Fate after Gatewalkers is done:
I actually cannot find any rule that prevents items of Worn: Gloves from functioning simultaneously with Free-Hand weapons like the Gauntlets.
That makes it an easy sell to wear 1 Spiked Gauntlet just for the 1A elixir injection, and fully runed Handwraps + Bestial to attack with the other. If I use the 1A injection a lot, I might actually wear 2 and just use the Handwraps to boost the Bestial's bite.
Combine Elixirs really does seem like it costs 2 VVs total, so my Turn 1 is likely going to be the Q-Bomber + Dbl-Brw to chuck a QV (while I'm most likely to still be at range anyways) and then drink a Combine buff elixir that's mixed in reaction to the context of the fight. With Soothing + Numbing being the default, as this is more of a tank Chiurgeon.
My familiar will be holding that alch chart for the 2 turn Q-Alch pass, but I think it'll likely revert to being a full item relay, passing up scrolls and prep items if VVs are too tight.
As far as taxing my VVs before combat starts:
* 1 VV for a lozenge
* 1 VV for Collar mutagen
* 1 VV elixir in the Spiked Gauntlet
That's 3/7 for the L11 Alchemist, and the turn 1 Combine buff adds up to 5/7.
This will leave me with just 2 VVs for later turns in the fight, either as one big Combine, or 2 smaller singles.
Wow, actually tallying that up is crazy freaking bad. I don't think that's viable as a plan. At the very least, I think this PC will need to reduce the FA Witch stuff (trying out Blood in the Water slash triggers) and get Medic.
This also requires the full timeout to recharge after a single fight, and literally has 0 VV bomb budget. S@*&.
Yeah, for any multi-fight map, this is a disaster.
I don’t think injected elixirs work. The text says you drink them.
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Not really sure what else the injection trait could be referring to in regard to injecting allies for 1A.
"usually an injury poison" is atypically permissive for Paizo.
and Collar is there as an example of explicitly injecting elixirs.
Not really sure what else the injection trait could be referring to in regard to injecting allies for 1A.
"usually an injury poison" is atypically permissive for Paizo.
and Collar is there as an example of explicitly injecting elixirs.
There's no indication that it contemplates injecting allies, rather than enemies.
"Usually an injury poison" seems like typical future proofing. Maybe they'll come up with another injectable substance that is not a poison and has rules for being injected. Right now that's only injury poisons, although I could see case for a contact poison in an injection reservoir - the contact trait says they can't go on weapons because of the risk of poisoning yourself, but the reservoir seems to avoid that risk. Stab, activate, and run away.
But the elixir trait (and specific elixir of life description) require drinking. Nothing in the injection reservoir or injection trait overcome this.
The Collar is explicitly there as an example of how a thing that grants a new method of administering something has to say "this specific thing does a thing that could not otherwise be done under the existing general rule."
On the subject of contact poisons, the remaster changed the rogue Poison Weapon feat in a couple notable ways. First change is that the poison is just applied to the weapon like normal. There's no longer any clause about the poison having to be delivered quickly or expiring early. The second change is that the strike no longer specially exposes the target to contact poison, even though that's still an option to apply to the weapon. Are you supposed to apply contact poison then hope the enemy picks it up?
I think it's pretty safe to say that the contact exposure functions as before, otherwise it's painfully misleading. Besides, the Contact trait doesn't flag up that you can't get poisoned by contact poison on a weapon, it flags up that it's too tricky to get the poison on to the weapon in the first place without self-poisoning and wasting it. Since this feat gives you the skill to get it on the weapon without killing yourself, everything else is fine.
Well, except for the bit where the contact poison has a 1-minute onset period, so it's not really for use in combat. (Come to think of it, it's a rather funny design choice; by saying the exact same things applied to both injury and combat poisons, it gives you two completely different abilities involving both (in-combat action compression vs. out-of-combat assassination utility).)
Having watched an Investigator video, I'm confident the Chirurgeon will work fine after level 24 when it uses a multiclass to take the Share Tincture feat to create/deliver an elixir in one action.
Oh, wait, that feat access requires the subclass specialty that you can't via MC. Oh, well.
But seriously, it's funny how poorly all the various alchemy archetypes and the class itself mix and match now. I can see taking alchemy MC on a non-alchemy investigator, but alchemical sciences investigator is getting very little value out of it.
I'm curious what alchemists will spend their gold on. Bombs have rune scaling already. Bestial mutagen scales, though if you're leaning heavily on unarmed you'll still want property runes on hand wraps. But the big change is that with unfettered out of combat mutagens you have little incentive to invest in skill items. Your mutagens will always provide better bonuses than what you could afford in permanent items, and mental skill checks generally won't require you to pivot from intelligence to charisma in a single 10 minute period. To an extent, this can alleviate skill pressure on the entire party. Only stuff used in encounters will really call for it.
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I found a pdf owners who says he looked for the coagulant trait - it's only on the chirurgeon field vials, nothing else is blocked by the timer.
I'm curious what alchemists will spend their gold on. Bombs have rune scaling already. Bestial mutagen scales, though if you're leaning heavily on unarmed you'll still want property runes on hand wraps. But the big change is that with unfettered out of combat mutagens you have little incentive to invest in skill items. Your mutagens will always provide better bonuses than what you could afford in permanent items, and mental skill checks generally won't require you to pivot from intelligence to charisma in a single 10 minute period. To an extent, this can alleviate skill pressure on the entire party. Only stuff used in encounters will really call for it.
Mutagens let you only skip one type of magic skill item. So if you ever want to enhance more than one, or want the item's additional effects/activation, such as Lifting Belt's bulk+, you'll still be buying those.
I also think that all non-Bombers will still be paying for a fully runed weapon. There's no way little d6 bombs that lack effects or property runes will be enough to count on. And 6/7 VVs per fight is really, really rough, especially with a 20-30min recharge on that.
I really wish people would stop saying that bombs have rune scaling for free. They really, really do not. Blame Paizo if you must, but property runes are literally damage runes that -also- add crit effects.
I also think that all non-Bombers will still be paying for a fully runed weapon. There's no way little d6 bombs that lack effects or property runes will be enough to count on. And 6/7 VVs per fight is really, really rough, especially with a 20-30min recharge on that.
You still can thrown acid vials that you created in time. 1-4d6 + weapon specialization + twice of your intelligence that hits even in a failure still pretty good to use in your MAP. The main problem is the friend fire when you aren't a bomber but you probably can circumvent this turning the splash into a cone.
Yet I partially agree that mutagenists and poisoners will invest into weapons.
For pure bombers and chirurgeon bombers probably the best use of your money will be with invested worn items and magic potions.
Again, once the elemental property runes come online, there's really no way for the Q-Vial d6 damage to compete.
At L12, when the Q-Vials upgrade to 3d6, any runed d6 weapon will be doing 5d6 with 2 extra crit effects, and an evergreen spellheart like Warding Statuette's +1 AC.
It's just insane to pretend that Q-Vials will at all compare.
Actual formula bombs depend on matching the right secondary effect & type to the situation to justify the lower damage, while weapons are much more static & inflexible. A 3d6 persistent damage bomb can genuinely be superior to a weapon strike during turn 1, especially with an Additive, but that'll cost you a VV.
The actual infinite bombs are crap, and they are designed intentionally to be sub bar backups/filler. The issue is that because they are sub-par but still use the exact same Strike action, you would always benefit more from a runed weapon strike.
The fact that they blocked Additives from working with QVs is what really renders this a non-argument.
This is not like the Persistent Bombs of old, where you had an even lower damage bomb, but had the potential for Additives to make up for it. These are just crappy, completely rune-incompatible, Strikes.
Literally worse than unarmed attacks that can be enhanced via Handwraps + runes + talismans/spellhearts.
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Again, once the elemental property runes come online, there's really no way for the Q-Vial d6 damage to compete.
At L12, when the Q-Vials upgrade to 3d6, any runed d6 weapon will be doing 5d6 with 2 extra crit effects.
It's just insane to pretend that Q-Vials will at all compare.
Actual formula bombs depend on matching the right secondary effect to the situation to justify the lower damage, while weapons are much more static. A 3d6 persistent damage bomb can genuinely be superior to a weapon strike during turn 1, especially with an Additive but that'll cost you a VV.
The actual infinite bombs are crap, and they are designed intentionally to be sup bar backups/filler. The issue is that because they are sub-par but still use the exact same Strike action, you would always benefit more from a runed weapon strike.
The fact that they blocked Additives from working with QVs is what really renders this a non-argument. This is not like the Persistent Bombs of old, where you had an even lower damage bomb, but had the potential for Additives to make up for it. These are just crappy, completely rune-incompatible, Strikes.
Literally worse than unarmed attacks that can be enhanced via Handwraps + runes.
It's not xd6, though. It's xd6+x for the splash. If you're a bomber, that becomes xd6+5 at level 5. Bombers also get to choose cold/electric/fire/acid, and at level 11 they can have it also count as adamantine/cold iron/dawnsilver, or any metal you happen to be wearing. A level 10 feat can give you another +int to that splash damage, as well as increasing splash size. At 13, bombers get to increase splash size *again*.
So at level 12, the bomber slinging a versatile vial with appropriate feats is dealing 3d6+10 to the primary target, and 10 to everyone within 10 feet of the target, in their choice of four damage types, in their choice of at least three special materials. Given that the backfire mantle is a thing, and the level 8 version, delightfully, offers exactly 10 resistance to friendly splash, I'm going to say that that's a decent chunk better than the 5d6 plus some nice crit effects that you'd get out of a standard d6 ranged weapon. If you're fighting crowds, then the splash is giving you some love. If you're fighting singletons, then you weren't ever all that likely to crit anyway... and you're a *lot* better at routing around resists and into vulns than anyone with a weapon that they've actually invested in is. Pretty nice for a class that's *still* bringing heals and buff-juice to the table at the end of the day.
Now, it's not nearly as good for anyone who isn't a bomber, and it requires both feat investment and some gear investment. This is true... but it's pretty solid once you've tossed those things in there, and those investments also apply in full for when you're throwing around bombs that you've made that you *can* slap additives on... like making a sticky bomb with 10 points of ongoing damage.
Yeah, a relatable damage calculator guy on the discord Rama bomber with sticky and the splash feat, he’s in line with a basic bow martial making two attacks vs one VV and one QV. plus your other tools.
Yeah, a relatable damage calculator guy on the discord Rama bomber with sticky and the splash feat, he’s in line with a basic bow martial making two attacks vs one VV and one QV. plus your other tools.
Even if that's true/accurate, it is damning for the QV bombs.
Basic bow means no Feat + Feature investment in those Strikes, which would take them above bombs. Even worse is the resource issue that VV bombs have, and a bow martial does not.
It's absurd that the QVs are even being argued as a Strike replacement.
I would literally rather have a 1d4 ancestry ranged unarmed attack than the QVs, as at least I can interact with & enhance that.
Like the rest of this Alchemist Remaster, it was clearly written without actual regard for non-Bombers. It *mostly* seems to be working for Bombers, but the rest of the Alchs are just just screwed.
Without Bomber's passive, you will deal more splash damage to your own team than to foes, so it is hard to consider that in the QV's favor. Also, there's Str to damage for thrown and melee Strikes.
And if you're a Chiurgeon staring down the barrel of this update, looking at the absurdly bad prospect of spending VVs on bombs with such a tight budget, still have lagging Strike accuracy... I might even roll my Chi as a STR Alch because Trip & Grapple are still absurd and evergreen. Likely will depend on the party is fine on damage or needs me more in that role.
Got my Sub pdf and reading through and one issue that carries forward from before unless I am missing something is that there is no in class way to get more than 2 familiar abilities without taking an archetype like familiar master or Sorcerer. This kinda feels really bad given they added the homunculus specific familiar which is clearly designed for the alchemist who has no in class way to get to the required 6 abilities.
Got my Sub pdf and reading through and one issue that carries forward from before unless I am missing something is that there is no in class way to get more than 2 familiar abilities without taking an archetype like familiar master or Sorcerer. This kinda feels really bad given they added the homunculus specific familiar which is clearly designed for the alchemist who has no in class way to get to the required 6 abilities.
holy s*#! 6?
Even with the bonus mandatory Construct, Enhanced Familiar would only get you to 5.
That's wild that they actually picked 6, and makes the decision to force all alch familiars into being constructs completely alien and insane.