Archer gives you how scaling, sure. But it doesn't give you quick draw, which is super helpful for switch Quick shot lets you quick draw the bow, but 90% of the time you'll want to do the reverse. This is especially problematic if you want to use double slice in melee because you're now burning two actions on swapping. (Although I suppose you can take lightning swap to drop that down to one action, but that's costing you a pretty valuable feat slot and you're still doing less actions than the ranger.)And it doesn't let you ignore their second range increment like Hunt Prey. In outdoor maps, taking penalty on the 100 to 200 foot range can absolutely be relevant. (I can't tell you how many times I was glad my gunslinger had a 200 foot range increment in Kingmaker.)
If anything forces you to swap target then Ranger just loses more actions, so overall I think that would be a wash.
I only got to level 6 in Kingmaker but didn't have a single combat that wasn't standard AP start roughly one move away from the enemy.
Ranger is more of an ambush class, make sure you engage in favorable setting to unleash maximum effectiveness. You have difficult terrain, great stealth options and can front load damage to be able to skirmish. That sort of thing isn't given room to shine in most groups though.
PF2 is good for higher level play. I'd hate to only play low level games. So I don't put a lot of value on being dismissive of it just because people tend to play lower levels more, because there's likely a big difference between what levels people play more and what they enjoy more. We do need more 10-20 APs though, FotRP was fun. There's a 5-15 AP coming this year I think, that might be a great mix.
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I think the actual difference between the archer Fighter and the Ranger is that the Fighter doesn't get anything to punch through resistance. The Ranger is combining two shots into one and adding precision die for a meaty damage roll, the Fighter is just hoping to get big enough crits for them to count. Pretty relevant downside for a build that's locked into doing piercing damage.
All I know is that I've never felt ineffective playing my PFS Ranger (8th level)... and he's a Dwarven flurry Ranger that uses a Clan Dagger and switches between a short sword and a light hammer.
I just upgraded the hammer to a +1 Striking Returning to give him a Ranged Strike in case it's needed. (He uses doubling rings with Runes on the Clan Dagger.)
A dagger?
Two-weapon fighting is suboptimal to start with and using a dagger is going to make it even less effective.
When I ran my first flurry ranger, he was a dex-based flurry ranger using goblin slicers who archetyped into rogue to get sneak attack to stack more per attack damage. He used a bird animal companion to flank in three dimensions.
My current ranger is a new experiment using falcatas with two-weapon fighting with flurry.
Two-weapon fighting is an inferior fighting style that you have to leverage as much per attack damage into to make effective. So you have to choose weapons that stack high possible per attack damage and possible per attack crits. Some people like pick and light pick. I prefer goblin slicers with rogue archetype for a dex-based ranger. I'm trying the falcata because it has fatal d12 on two medium weapons. We'll see how that goes as I'm still testing it. It's had some real good rounds, but some real average to bad rounds too. Since I expect to play to level 15 or higher, I give my builds a long time to get going. I've calculated at level 17 should have a better overall hit chance than a two-weapon fighter with a lot of attacks.
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Due to the way striking runes work, the die size of the weapon has a heavy influence on the damage output of weapon users. In 3E/PF1 it was the crit range and crit multiple that highly influence weapon damage. In PF2 it is the die size of the weapon that has a huge influence on damage output making smaller die size weapons like daggers or any d4 weapon inferior even to their d6 counterparts and especially if you can get d8 or above.
Two-weapon fighting does its best damage by maximizing per attack damage with die size.
Two-hander fighting does best maximizing reaction attacks and incorporating additional high value actions into your attack routines to maximize that first hit that will hopefully set up your reaction attacks.
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On the other hand: using a clan dagger is a very thematic thing for a Dwarf to do.
On the other hand: using a clan dagger is a very thematic thing for a Dwarf to do.
Thematic, but very suboptimal. If you're feeling ineffective when you're making a massive suboptimal choice, that is you making a suboptimal choice for RP reasons. Which is perfectly fine and happens even in my group quite often. When the player does it, they have to accept the lesser effectiveness for the RP enjoyment.
the Ranger feats are the ones you want for archery (the Fighter can poach them but it has to wait for a few levels to do so).
Really?
Ranger can ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment. Then from level 9 class ability enemies are off-guard to you if they're in difficult terrain. For me their good archery feats are
Hunter's Aim Which is just a maths fix for hunt prey and an occaional extra action if you party is slow at killing things.
Far Shot for extra range
Snap Shot for reactions with bows.
Skirmish Strike for a free step.
Fighter get +2 to hit and their good archery feats are
Point Blank Stance to ignore volley
Exacting Strike to make your 3rd shot useful if the 2nd misses.
Parting Shot to get off guard at range reliably
Incredible Aim because you need another +2 to hit and ignore concealed.
Felling Strike to properly deal with flyers.
Both get Impossible Volley and I just think you'll have better options without having to take the marginal prerequisites.
To my mind both classes have nice things that other class want. The Ranger is better at long range which is mostly irrelevant but depends on your campaign. So I would be cross archetyping as either maybe into the Archer Archetype as much of it is there as well. In practice probably into Eldritch Archer anyway.
But I'm also not understanding why you are writing off Rogue archers as well. Offguard at range is easy enough to get if they try. eg Dread Striker, but picking up Parting Shot will make it guaranteed.
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On the other hand: using a clan dagger is a very thematic thing for a Dwarf to do.
Yeah, that's the main reason I do it. The other reason is that it has Parry, meaning that Twin Parry is just as good as raising a shield.
That will come in quite handy when I eventually get Twin Riposte.
To my mind both classes have nice things that other class want.
If you build a Fighter for pure archery stuff, then you will want Gravity Weapon at level 4. And if you build your Fighter to bring something else than pure damage you'll want Hunted Shot for it's excellent action economy.
If you build a Ranger for pure archery stuff, then you will want some Fighter feats (especially Point Blank Shot). If you build your Ranger to bring something else than pure damage then you can go in any direction (spellcasting archetype, Timber Sentinel, skills).
So going Ranger Dedication on a Fighter is nearly a must have. Going Fighter Dedication on a Ranger is just a choice among many.
But I'm also not understanding why you are writing off Rogue archers as well.
I play an archer Rogue. It's nice because of the skills but it's not a strong damage dealer (so much that I have actually used Electric Arc more often than Strike during the first 4 levels of my Rogue). It's also too party dependent as getting Off Guard at range is not reliable like it is at melee range.
Off guard as a rogue comes online easily at higher level, but is pretty rough at lower level. Once you get Precise Debilitations and can stick-flat-footed on continuously it becomes much easier.
Off guard as a rogue comes online easily at higher level, but is pretty rough at lower level. Once you get Precise Debilitations and can stick-flat-footed on continuously it becomes much easier.
Precise Debilitations asks for Thief Racket that doesn't provide anything to a ranged Rogue. So unless you want to play a Racketless Rogue during 9 levels you'll certainly don't have access to it.
Off guard as a rogue comes online easily at higher level, but is pretty rough at lower level. Once you get Precise Debilitations and can stick-flat-footed on continuously it becomes much easier.Precise Debilitations asks for Thief Racket that doesn't provide anything to a ranged Rogue. So unless you want to play a Racketless Rogue during 9 levels you'll certainly don't have access to it.
I use Thief as a ranged rogue due to Precise Debilitations. If your group is built with a trip martial, ranged sneak attack becomes very easy. I have a trip martial in my group quite often, so I have been able to facilitate this.
You can also build with feint or intimidate and Dread Striker as a thief rogue fine for earlier levels.
Once you hit that magic 10 mark, it becomes real, real easy to ranged sneak attack. Prior to that, you have to find various ways like Trip, Dread Striker, Feint, using Stealth to get the opening sneak at least.
Wouldn't a ranger get better mileage from the archer archetype than fighter archetype?
To my mind both classes have nice things that other class want.If you build a Fighter for pure archery stuff, then you will want Gravity Weapon at level 4.
Yes that is useful but it is only one attack per round. I mean there are other things that overlap with this like Courageous Anthem from a Bard. So not sure it is a must pick. Yes I always consider my party when I build.
if you build your Fighter to bring something else than pure damage you'll want Hunted Shot for it's excellent action economy.
Which you have to pay for by doing the hunt prey action. I mean sometimes it is a net win. But other times you have spent a feat for little benefit.
But I'm also not understanding why you are writing off Rogue archers as well.I play an archer Rogue. It's nice because of the skills but it's not a strong damage dealer (so much that I have actually used Electric Arc more often than Strike during the first 4 levels of my Rogue). It's also too party dependent as getting Off Guard at range is not reliable like it is at melee range.
Does spell DC mean nothing to you?
Precise Debilitations asks for Thief Racket that doesn't provide anything to a ranged Rogue.
Well only Mastermind Racket really does, if you don't want that then Thief is the best.
Wouldn't a ranger get better mileage from the archer archetype than fighter archetype?
Real gamers pick Sniping Duo.
Wouldn't a ranger get better mileage from the archer archetype than fighter archetype?Real gamers pick Sniping Duo.
True. I always forget you can take that with regular bows.
True. I always forget you can take that with regular bows.Wouldn't a ranger get better mileage from the archer archetype than fighter archetype?Real gamers pick Sniping Duo.
I feel you ^^. There are a bunch of feats that are reload-weapon only, but the only one of those worth getting is Deflecting Shot, so it's not like you are missing out much.
The dedication alone is absolutely worth it and easily the best thing about the archetype.
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I think people are sleeping on the Outwit Ranger (just the way an outwit ranger would want it to be, so maybe by design).
I think the class could probably use a little bit more support for the deception skill, but the support for recalling knowledge has always been strong and the support for intimidation with Eerie Evirons in Dark Archive is exceptionally cool. Intimidating a foe from hiding and then aiming at a target with a -3 to -4 AC is huge. Now imagine there are other members of the party that are snipers or rogues who are also hiding, and the potential for winning a fight in the first round has probably never been higher.
I think the part of being an outwit ranger that is challenging is players thinking that they have to maximize INT and WIS to use the edge effectively, when it is an edge that can pretty easily get by with maximising only Dex (or even starting with a 16 dex) and then effectively having 18s in stats that start at 14 for INT, WIS and CHA. But they are even better that starting with 18s in those stats because you can boost all of them at level 5 and 10 and then at level 17 they boost by 2 again.
I think that the Rogue dedication is tough to pass on for the Outwit ranger, except that they have pretty strong class feats they also need to pick up to really maximize what they can do with their skills. In a FA game though, I think they can give a rogue a run for their money for being a skill monkey that can be brutally effective with Intimidation.
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The real challenge with the outwit ranger is that master monster hunter is a level 10 feat.
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The real challenge with the outwit ranger is that master monster hunter is a level 10 feat.
Well yes it is woefully underpowered. Relying on critical success effect against a limited set of monsters to get a +1. Look at the chances of it being useful. It is terrible until master monster hunter comes into play. Then it is a nice but small boost.
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Monster hunter is a great feat because it compresses actions for the ranger. The bonus you get from it on a critical success becomes a more useful thing at higher levels, but is auxiliary to the feats usefulness for the low level outwit Ranger. Eventually a well built outwit Ranger will get their critical success rate on recall knowledge into the 30-50 percent range, but that is much later in the game. That is why monster warden is a feat you retrain into later, not pick up at second level.
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Monster Hunter feats are weak. Not sure why you like them. Far inferior to precision and flurry. Outwit ranger is only good if you feel like playing that type of character and take pleasure in weak combat ability for om
Outwit Ranger would have had some viable builds if it wasn't a circumstance bonus and stacked with a shield. If you wanted to make any type of defensive specialist ranger, you're already going to take a shield. If you wanted to make a two-weapon specialist using something like Dual weapon parry or the stance, the lack of stacking with the circumstance bonus to AC doesn't work.
Outwit doesn't even stack with Cover.
Outwit doesn't stack with Aid.
Making outwit a circumstance bonus was a terrible idea. Outwit is a badly designed Edge that doesn't stack with key elements of the game mechanics that would have made it viable or interesting.
I don't know why Unicore is trying to sell that badly designed Hunter's Edge. It is terrible.
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I don’t know where you typically get circumstance bonuses to stealth, intimidation and recall knowledge checks in combat without wasting your allies actions, but a +2 is significant. It all pairs incredibly well with a rogue archetype, and the recall knowledge and intimidate bonuses can lead to you providing better support to your whole party. The +1 to AC is a minor addition. Ending a turn hidden from your enemy is much better defensive protection.
if you get an animal companion they also get the + to ac and skills of outwit.
I don’t know where you typically get circumstance bonuses to stealth, intimidation and recall knowledge checks in combat without wasting your allies actions, but a +2 is significant.
It's really a +1 when you figure in the fact that ranger has a key stat in str/dex and not a mental stat [so +3 max starting stat] and the class doesn't really incentivize the use of mental stats outside the Monster Hunter feats and Outwit gives bonuses to skills for all three mental stat. Even with Master Monster Hunter, you have to juggle 2 mental stats AND your physical combat stats.
Now when you get the Masterful Hunter Upgrade to +4, that significant. That's at 17 though. Honestly, Outwit feels like a rogue without sneak attack and less skills. the extreme MADness of the class means either you tank your combat stats to be slightly better at some skills or tank your mental stats and be as good or worse then someone else that has mental stats as a key or secondary stat and doesn't have 5-6 stats that they want.
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The problem with outwit is that it feels lame. Like, its just a plain bonus to a few skills and AC, while flurry reduces MAP and precision a pseudo-sneak attack that you have build around. The outwit build isn't that different from your average rogue or even thaumaturge, but you do the job of both of those classes but worse (a thaumaturge really takes more mileage from being a RK class can get similar bonuses to those skills with a few implements, and rogues have access to way more skills thus making them more versatile. If you are one of those tables that allows investigators to use Pursue a Lead a little more freely then they effectively have a similar bonus to the outwit ranger as well).
I agree with Unicore that the AC bonus is very minor all things considered, since those that pick up outwit don't do it for the AC bonus. I honestly would gladly take that bonus away for an ability that allows them to take advantage of their high skill bonuses in a way that's unique to the class instead of just being "I roll really high lol". I would probably just merge Monster Hunter into the subclass itself, removing the 1/day limitation because that truly makes it a shit feat. Master Monster Hunter should be lowered to 6th or even 4th level, if not being part of the regular progression of the subclass itself.
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if you get an animal companion they also get the + to ac and skills of outwit.
I'm not sure that and Animal Companion recalling knowledge is going to be helpful, but YMMV.
Animal Companions can be good at stealth but more often than not another roll is just another chance at failure.
An Intimidation check can be useful, even if it is not going to be as good as a PCs.
The +1 AC is nice. But remember it is a circumstance bonus against your hunted prey only and it doesn't stack with the circumstance bonus you would get from riding your animal companion.
After thinking it for a while, most of the problems from outwit comes from the really poor feat selection they have to build around. The intended feats for flurry or precision really make those playstyles shine, while the intended feats of outwit (Moster Hunter, Monster Warden, Master Monster Hunter) are limited by the fact that they work only 1/day per target AND on a crit success, and the benefits they give are literally the equivalent of 1st level features of other classes. Take away that silly 1/day restriction and make those work on a success and that would make the subclass way better.
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One kind of interesting thing about Outwit is that if you do invest in the appropriate stats you end up monstrously good at those skills (provided no aid). +4 to intimidate on someone who already has a good charisma is very powerful.
The problem with outwit is that it feels lame.
TBH that seems to be like, a centralizing feature of a lot of the complaints about Rangers, that thing don't feel very good.. even when sometimes mathematically they aren't terrible.
Sort of like how it feels like the first instinct I see from a lot of players is to discount Precision edge because 1d8 extra damage once per round doesn't feel interesting or good, even if mathematically precision rangers are decent. There's just no pop.
Though obviously Outwit has more issues going for it.
I agree with Unicore that the AC bonus is very minor all things considered
While I agree, that's not necessarily at odds with the complaints about outwit either. The feature's most consistent combat benefit being so negligible is not really helping it win hearts and minds.
IMO the biggest issue with Outwit across the board though is that Paizo made the bonuses circumstances instead of untyped.
A big chunk of your core class feature is completely redundant with an Aid check, and your defensive benefit is just a bad shield.
It's not really practical, but imo it does contribute to the 'feels lame' aspect of the Edge that you can theoretically replace most of what it can do with gear and party choices. It makes it that much harder to feel like it really brings something new and powerful to the table.
might be a hot take but imo all class features should lean toward stackability with general options. No one likes having their core identity replaced by a buff or an item.
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might be a hot take but imo all class features should lean toward stackability with general options. No one likes having their core identity replaced by a buff or an item.
Yeah this should be standard.
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I don’t know where you typically get circumstance bonuses to stealth, intimidation and recall knowledge checks in combat without wasting your allies actions, but a +2 is significant.It's really a +1 when you figure in the fact that ranger has a key stat in str/dex and not a mental stat [so +3 max starting stat] and the class doesn't really incentivize the use of mental stats outside the Monster Hunter feats and Outwit gives bonuses to skills for all three mental stat. Even with Master Monster Hunter, you have to juggle 2 mental stats AND your physical combat stats.
Now when you get the Masterful Hunter Upgrade to +4, that significant. That's at 17 though. Honestly, Outwit feels like a rogue without sneak attack and less skills. the extreme MADness of the class means either you tank your combat stats to be slightly better at some skills or tank your mental stats and be as good or worse then someone else that has mental stats as a key or secondary stat and doesn't have 5-6 stats that they want.
Sure, at level 1 your +2 circumstance bonuses might only bring you up to the same level as another character with a maxed out stat in the skill or maybe 1 better, but you also have an +4 dex at the same time, so your stealth is exceptionally good, right from the start. Then, even if you only started with a +2 in a stat, you are as good as someone who had that stat as a key attribute, and you start getting better than them at level 5 and then level 10 you are still 1 better than them, even if they have a +5 in that attribute.
If anything, I think the outwit Ranger could maybe benefit from a feat like the highly educated one they gave the commander, but level 8 would be a rough spot for it.
And by the end game, with the hunter’s lore warden spell and some focused additional lore as well as using nature against everything else, suddenly you are criting all the time with RK, and those bonuses from monster warden and monster hunter are pretty relevant.
I’d hate it if the solution was to add a feat that made it where you were trying to recall knowledge more than once against the same target, or even type of target by default. But getting to learn a thing or two about the enemy for free every time you hunt prey is great.
I don’t know where you typically get circumstance bonuses to stealth, intimidation and recall knowledge checks in combat without wasting your allies actions, but a +2 is significant. It all pairs incredibly well with a rogue archetype, and the recall knowledge and intimidate bonuses can lead to you providing better support to your whole party. The +1 to AC is a minor addition. Ending a turn hidden from your enemy is much better defensive protection.
Why do you think that it is important? Skills aren't more powerful than spells. Rogues relying on intimidate and deception are inferior to those that rely on gang up and Opportune Backstab.
It's a waste of a choice. Rarely useful in the majority of the game and you are making it sound on par or even close to good.
It's not at all. There are a lot of ways to gain a circumstance bonus to skills when you need them with Aid. Any character built for Deception, Stealth, or Intimidation will have the support necessary to execute those without a ranger using what to give it others? His Warden's Boon action to give it to a single ally? When he can give Flurry or Precision? You gotta be kidding me.
Lets say you make a strength based ranger with intimidating prowess, doesn't even stack with Intimidating Prowess.
On top of Intimidate causing immunity for a minute after use and only a Swashbuckler eliminates that with their class features, while a ranger? What? Intimidates once using a weak stat they had to build up like Charisma while not even being able to max their intimidate out by picking up Intimidating prowess because it doesn't stack?
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But getting to learn a thing or two about the enemy for free every time you hunt prey is great
It is useful but it is just so totally shaded by the classes that do that better. Tome Thaumaturge for example gets it on everything from level 1 not 10, on their prime attribute not their 2nd or 3rd, its a free action from level 7, and the +1 to hit activates on a success not a critical success. Plus you still get to keep your class main damage feature.
I have a player that is running an outwit ranger with a arbalest and crossbow ace. They picked up a bird animal companion at level 2 to add to combat a bit.
They didnt really feel like they offered the team much in combat at level 1. Action economy with hunt prey and having to reload is really bad together.
halfling with
-1 +4 +1 +0 +3 +2
So already this character is not there to do damage as the primary contribution to the party but they can count on contributing 1d10 +1(backstabber) shot per round and they can add it to any target from up to 220 ft away. The animal companion is expanding how that strike contributes by adding a bleed and dazzle. Outwit's +1 ac matters more to the bird than the ranger who is keeping real distance from enemies.
Outside combat encounters the ranger can hunt prey in social encounters and be as good as the trained +4 cha characters. Or Hunt prey on the kings advisor then RK to see if they know anything about his late night activities by looking at the mud traces(making nature relevant) on his shoes noticing they share some visual characteristics of the dirt from the graveyard. A creative player can take advantage of hunt prey outside of combat and help the party too. They just wont be a big damage dealer from outwit alone.
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I don’t know where you typically get circumstance bonuses to stealth, intimidation and recall knowledge checks in combat without wasting your allies actions, but a +2 is significant. It all pairs incredibly well with a rogue archetype, and the recall knowledge and intimidate bonuses can lead to you providing better support to your whole party. The +1 to AC is a minor addition. Ending a turn hidden from your enemy is much better defensive protection.Why do you think that it is important? Skills aren't more powerful than spells. Rogues relying on intimidate and deception are inferior to those that rely on gang up and Opportune Backstab.
I have no doubt that you have a very particular style of play that pushes melee builds and getting as many attacks as possible regardless of the adventure or what other people at the table want to do. I think you are right in assuming that the outwit ranger is not for you. I like PF2 skills.
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Sure, at level 1 your +2 circumstance bonuses might only bring you up to the same level as another character with a maxed out stat in the skill or maybe 1 better, but you also have an +4 dex at the same time, so your stealth is exceptionally good, right from the start. Then, even if you only started with a +2 in a stat, you are as good as someone who had that stat as a key attribute, and you start getting better than them at level 5 and then level 10 you are still 1 better than them, even if they have a +5 in that attribute.
That doesn't actually work as you want to raise dex, and str and con and cha and wis [and before 10th, int]. So what to you not raise? Great stealth doesn't help if you can't hit, con/dex and wis are save stats so is the plan to tank str? No int, and you miss out on a lot of Recall checks before 10th. There are only so many stat bonuses.
And by the end game, with the hunter’s lore warden spell and some focused additional lore as well as using nature against everything else, suddenly you are criting all the time with RK, and those bonuses from monster warden and monster hunter are pretty relevant.
Do you mean Hunter's Luck? Myself though, I put almost NO value in end game content as I rarely see it. A +4 at 17th isn't worth anything if I can expect to rarely if ever see it: this is especially true if you have to go through a LOT of underwhelming level to get to it. I mean, when you have to get to 5th or 10th to beat out someone that didn't put in any extra effort or use any class features past spending skill increases, it's not feeling very good.
Yes that is useful but it is only one attack per round. I mean there are other things that overlap with this like Courageous Anthem from a Bard. So not sure it is a must pick. Yes I always consider my party when I build.
I don't see so much high value feats for an archer at these levels (and it gets up to +8 so Inspire Courage doesn't really impact it). Especially considering how you struggle as an archer before level 10, a significant damage boost should go a long way into feeling a proper party member and not a sidekick.
Which you have to pay for by doing the hunt prey action. I mean sometimes it is a net win. But other times you have spent a feat for little benefit.
As a martial you want to Strike twice per round. Which leaves your Fighter with 1 action available at most to do "something else". It will strongly limit the something else you can do. At least, with Hunted Shot you will sometimes have 2 actions and be able to pull out a very nice round. But I agree most Fighter archers are focused on pure archery as Precision Ranger seems a much more obvious choice if you want to do something else than shooting.
Does spell DC mean nothing to you?
I don't get what you want to say.
Well only Mastermind Racket really does, if you don't want that then Thief is the best.
I disagree. All Rackets but Thief and Ruffian bring something to a ranged Rogue, mine as a Scoundrel started with 18 Charisma (not optimized, but something I wanted). Taking a Racket and waiting for level 10 to benefit from it is a very odd state of mind (unless you start at higher level). And at that level, you should have found a reliable way of getting Off Guard at range otherwise you would have suffered during 9 levels (or you planned on switching from melee to range at level 10, but it's still rather odd). I don't see someone doing that, but to each their own.
Anyway, I stick to my point of view: Ranged Rogue asks for party coordination. It's not something you can pull out in every party. I personally dislike to be dependent on another party member to operate properly, first because it forces my ally to stick to a specific routine (something I'd not accept on myself) but also because it creates more pain points as your ally may not always be in a position to do his thing. That's why I don't consider Rogue to be a top archer.
As a martial you want to Strike twice per round. Which leaves your Fighter with 1 action available at most to do "something else". It will strongly limit the something else you can do. At least, with Hunted Shot you will sometimes have 2 actions and be able to pull out a very nice round. But I agree most Fighter archers are focused on pure archery as Precision Ranger seems a much more obvious choice if you want to do something else than shooting.
Exacting Strike is half of the Fighter's solution for a 3rd action
Well only Mastermind Racket really does, if you don't want that then Thief is the best.I disagree. All Rackets but Thief and Ruffian bring something to a ranged Rogue, mine as a Scoundrel started with 18 Charisma
18 Charisma aside as it is an unlikely choice, what does Scoundrel give you that a Thief with 16 Charisma can't have? Feint is melee based (with GM variance for Grovel)
(not optimized, but something I wanted). Taking a Racket and waiting for level 10 to benefit
Well not waiting till level 10. A thief is perfectly fine in melee. Normal Demoralise plus Dread Striker is fairly good from level 4. Excellent in the highly likey situation someone else uses a fear effect as well. But if there is another PC who likes to grapple or trip you are all set up anyway.
Exacting Strike is half of the Fighter's solution for a 3rd action
You don't understand what I mean when I speak of a Fighter who wants to do "something else". Something else than archery. Now, as I said, you rarely choose Fighter over Precision Ranger if you want to make something else than archery.
18 Charisma aside as it is an unlikely choice, what does Scoundrel give you
An extra Trained skills.
A thief is perfectly fine in melee.
That's kind of my point ;)
Choosing Thief for a ranged Rogue is playing a Racketless Rogue or... having a weird Rogue who performs better at melee range but still wants to be a ranged Rogue? That's extremely odd to me.Now I agree that Mastermind is certainly the most obvious choice for a ranged Rogue.
Normal Demoralise plus Dread Striker is fairly good from level 4.
It's fine but it has issues (low range and immune enemies mostly). Overall, a ranged Rogue will be party dependent.
Anyway, there are tons of excellent ranged martials outside Starlit Span Magus and Fighter/Ranger archers, they are just much more complex to build or play, that's why I wasn't speaking much about them.
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The real challenge with the outwit ranger is that master monster hunter is a level 10 feat.Well yes it is woefully underpowered. Relying on critical success effect against a limited set of monsters to get a +1. Look at the chances of it being useful. It is terrible until master monster hunter comes into play. Then it is a nice but small boost.
As Unicore notes, the real advantage of the base monster hunter feat is the action compression, not the circumstance bonus. Master Monster Hunter makes that circumstance bonus relevant to all builds. The real advantage of the master fear is it compresses your skill usage by letting you identify all creatures with nature. That's good on any build who already wanted nature. But it's a godsend to outwit builds because it alleviates their need to invest in intelligence. And yet it only kicks in at level 10, so you either have spent boosts that eventually becomes irrelevant or you suck at your schtick for half the game.
It makes such a big difference that I wouldn't play an outwit unless I'm starting at level 10+. And that sucks when precision and flurry both have key feats that enable their builds at level 1.
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I think part of what pushes folks away from the outwit ranger is a vision of super specializing in one thing. Like if you want to make the ultimate recall knowledge character, and you want to do that above everything else, then the outwit ranger isn’t really the best option. But an outwit ranger with a +1 INT at level one can pick up a relevant additional lore at level 2 (and maybe another one at level 3 or 4) and retrain it as necessary for and be really good at recalling knowledge about that thing with very minimal investment, and never boosting INT again. Then at level 10, if you have been boosting WIS and want to completely walk away from INT, you can retrain out of those skill feats entirely. Meanwhile you are an exceptional sniper with an unparalleled ability to hide, using weapons that no thaumaturge can, you have top shelf perception checks, and equal to or better at intimidation and deception checks against your hunted prey, all with just +2 investments in your other mental stats, meaning you could even have a +1 or +2 in STR or CON too, and you have a jack-of all-trades character that can pretty much do everything when it comes to bringing down your target. Personally, I feel like like a hidden sniper with 10 hp per level and a strongly advancing fort save can pretty easily get away with minimal investment in CON, and with a crossbow STR might not be important to you either, so maybe you use your extra attributes to be even better at mental stuff. If you build to be versatile and stealthy with good long range attacks, an outwit ranger offers a lot.
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I wouldn't call the Outwit Ranger a jack of all trades. If I wanted to implement such a character with a martial chassis I'd look at Rogue or Investigator.
When I look at Outwit Ranger, I clearly see the 2-handed weapon Ranger. And as 2-handed combat is stronger than other forms of combat, it partly compensates the lack of features of Outwit Ranger.
Roughly, considering the Outwit Ranger doesn't need to Hunt Prey for its damage, it competes in damage with other Edges using 2 weapons. And it has a skill advantage and a potential +1 to AC for 1 action. So it's very far from bad. Even if I fully agree that Master Monster Hunter is really what makes it shine (but honestly, Flurry starts shining at higher level).
I will agree that a crossbow sniper build seems like it would work well with outwit, although the edge AC bonus not stacking with cover is annoying. It's probably the best way to leverage the new crossbow ace for Create a Diversion. Take gunslinger for the newly buffed Crossbow Crackshot and fake out, get gravity weapon and sniping duo, and suddenly the arbalest does pretty sick damage. Take Wild Empathy and you can really lean into the ranger face angle.
But this requires a lot of feats, so I'd still hesitate to play it before level 10 unless I was in a wilderness campaign where nature already covers most of my enemies. And to be fair, in a Kingmaker or Ironfang Invasion nature covers like 80% of what you'll fight.
When I look at Outwit Ranger, I clearly see the 2-handed weapon Ranger. And as 2-handed combat is stronger than other forms of combat, it partly compensates the lack of features of Outwit Ranger.
Roughly, considering the Outwit Ranger doesn't need to Hunt Prey for its damage, it competes in damage with other Edges using 2 weapons. And it has a skill advantage and a potential +1 to AC for 1 action. So it's very far from bad. Even if I fully agree that Master Monster Hunter is really what makes it shine (but honestly, Flurry starts shining at higher level).
The action advantage that the Ranger gets from Hunt Prey with Twin Takedown or Hunted Shot (if you target the same enemy on the next round you get an extra action) is worth maybe 1/2 an action per round on average. But it doesn't apply if you are using a two handed melee weapon. Just Ranged.
So you are right to identify the ranged build with an animal companion.
When I look at Outwit Ranger, I clearly see the 2-handed weapon Ranger. And as 2-handed combat is stronger than other forms of combat, it partly compensates the lack of features of Outwit Ranger.
Roughly, considering the Outwit Ranger doesn't need to Hunt Prey for its damage, it competes in damage with other Edges using 2 weapons. And it has a skill advantage and a potential +1 to AC for 1 action. So it's very far from bad. Even if I fully agree that Master Monster Hunter is really what makes it shine (but honestly, Flurry starts shining at higher level).
The action advantage that the Ranger gets from Hunt Prey with Twin Takedown or Hunted Shot (if you target the same enemy on the next round you get an extra action) is worth maybe 1/2 an action per round on average. But it doesn't apply if you are using a two handed melee weapon. Just Ranged.
So you are right to identify the ranged build with an animal companion.
Either you don't quote the proper message or I just don't get what you are answering to.
Edit: Reading again, I feel you are misunderstanding me: When speaking of 2-handed Ranger, I obviously speak about Greatswords, not Bows.
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I think people are sleeping on the Outwit Ranger (just the way an outwit ranger would want it to be, so maybe by design).
I think the class could probably use a little bit more support for the deception skill, but the support for recalling knowledge has always been strong and the support for intimidation with Eerie Evirons in Dark Archive is exceptionally cool. Intimidating a foe from hiding and then aiming at a target with a -3 to -4 AC is huge. Now imagine there are other members of the party that are snipers or rogues who are also hiding, and the potential for winning a fight in the first round has probably never been higher.
What if I told you that rangers could also use those skills with other edges, which actually improved their attacks?
Lots of other options give circumstance bonuses to Intimidate--usually, without costing actions. For instance, Intimidating Prowess is right there.
I'll grant you, however, that part of the problem is the developers' excessive conservativism about bonus stacking. It would hardly break the game for Outwit to give untyped bonuses instead. I doubt this would be enough to make the edge worth taking from a strategic standpoint, but it would make it a bit more interesting.
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I won't say the Outwit Ranger is awesome, that'd be lying. But I think it's in a much better shape than people put it.
Take this build: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 12, Wis 16, Int 12, Cha 10
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Nature (that you get to Master), Religion, Survival, Society, Arcana, Occultism
Feats: Monster Hunter, Monster Warden, Disrupt Prey, Skirmish Strike, Warden's Boon, Master Monster Hunter.
Grab a Greatsword and a Full Plate as soon as you can.
You have decent melee abilities, on par with Flurry and Precision due to the sheer violence of d12 weapons and ok action economy as you don't need to Hunt Prey unlike the other Edges. For one action you can Hunt Prey a creature to gain a +1 to AC against it (you'll Hunt a creature that is focusing you and that the party doesn't attack so you don't have to Hunt Prey often). You quickly grab Disrupt Prey that does more damage than the other Edges thanks to your d12 weapon. You get the most out of Skirmish Strike, which is pretty awesome on its own (that's the moment where your build start to really deviate from the other types of Rangers). At level 8, Warden's Boon allows you to Aid during social encounters with no chance to fail (but it's mostly there as a prerequisite to Shared Prey). At level 10 you get Master Monster Hunter and now your build is pretty much unique.
Overall, it's a good build right from level 1. Sure, if you go Fighter instead of Ranger you start in a much better place but as levels go up this build really moves away from the Fighter to end up at level 10 as a very different kind of beast.
Is it the strongest build out there? Definitely not. Is it a unique build that will match most martials in efficiency? Clearly yes.
The only drawback of Outwit is that it takes time to grow. But it's not a lame duck before, it's just a slightly bland martial.
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Roughly, considering the Outwit Ranger doesn't need to Hunt Prey for its damage
That's an oddly generous way of saying Outwit doesn't get any damage bonuses.
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That's an oddly generous way of saying Outwit doesn't get any damage bonuses.
Roughly, considering the Outwit Ranger doesn't need to Hunt Prey for its damage
Not to mention that saying "You don't have to use the class' main class feature" as a positive is already starting off on the wrong foot and further proves that outwit isn't a good subclass.