This has been on my mind lately. I've been thinking about class abilities that are really powerful, so much so that Paizo hardly lets any other archetypes or feats poach them.
First are Vigilante talents. There are no "extra vigilante talent" feats out there, and the only archetypes of other classes I know of that can access them can get one specific talent. Paizo really limits access to them, and for a reason: just one talent can contain the equivalent of 2-4 feats, and abilities that are found practically nowhere else in the game.
Second, Oracle Revelations. Similar to the above, many are much more powerful than feats and can let you do things some other classes just can't, which is probably why you can only get 6. Even the curses end up being useful. You need to be an Oracle, and unless you are a Ravener Hunter iIquisitor, you are pretty much out of luck.
Third, the Ranger Style feats along with some Monk archetypes. There is a reason why only Slayers get them, and again, unless you're a Nature Fang Druid you are pretty much out of luck. Monks can get several things without meeting prerequisites, and tHe Zen Archer and Master of Many Styles archetypes give out feats without meeting prerequisites like they're going out of style.
Is there something else I missed? Obviously any full spellcaster could be considered a hugely powerful ability, whether with the Cleric, Druid or Wiz spell list, but let's say aside from that.
J
First are Vigilante talents. There are no "extra vigilante talent" feats out there, and the only archetypes of other classes I know of that can access them can get one specific talent. Paizo really limits access to them, and for a reason: just one talent can contain the equivalent of 2-4 feats, and abilities that are found practically nowhere else in the game.
Rogues (chained and unchained) have access to the Rogue Talent "Stalker Talent" which let's them take Vigilante talents.
Overall though, I don't think that Paizo saw the things you listed as "too powerful" and that it's more likely that they wanted classes to feel different. (But I could be wrong; I really have no idea)
Second, Oracle Revelations. Similar to the above, many are much more powerful than feats and can let you do things some other classes just can't, which is probably why you can only get 6. Even the curses end up being useful. You need to be an Oracle, and unless you are a Ravener Hunter iIquisitor, you are pretty much out of luck.
Speaker for the Past Shamans get revelations.
Other class features that meet your criteria are Eidolons and Major and Grand Hexes. There are lots of ways to get Hexes but to get Major or Grand Hexes you need to be a witch or a Sylvan Trickster Rogue. The Druid's Wild Shape class feature likely does too.
It isn't surprising you missed the archetype that got revelations. There are just so many rules for PF1 that it is near impossible to know everything.
Lay on Hands is powerful, especially in combination with the Ultimate Mercy feat.
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AFAIK there's only two ways to get Lay on Hands as a non-paladin, and only one way to get Mercies in addition to that.
I have an offbeat class ability for this thread - Still Mind.
By itself it's not that powerful but it's needed for some fun material. Monastic legacy, vows, Champion of Irori prestige class, and others. Not only is the monk the only class that gets Still Mind feature, many monk archetypes trade it away, blocking off access to those options.
For my two cents I'd just like to add Opportune Parry and Riposte. One of my personal favorite examples of "the best defense is a good offense". Pump up your attack and Charisma (and Intelligence if you're going Inspired Blade) and suddenly when it really matters nothing can hit you. As far as I'm aware there aren't ways for other classes to get this, though I could be wrong about that.
While ranger style feats allow a character to take the feat without meeting the prerequisite, the feats themselves can be taken by anyone meeting the prerequisite. Considering the number of extra feats a fighter gets they can easily pick up any of the feats a ranger or monk get as bonus feats.
VMC can give any character up to 3 revelations a curse, 1 orison and the oracles, final revelation. This does cost half the characters feats. This works out to each revelation being about equal to a feat. While VMC oracles cannot take extra revelation an oracle can.
As others have pointed out Vigilante is a late entry to the game so the archetype of the earlier supplements could not have given that feature to other classes. And as Warped Savant points out rouges do have access to Stalker Talent which gives them access to vigilantly talents. The talents that give the equivalent to multiple feats are usually highly focused and the extra feats are only gained at higher levels.
The only real class features of the vigilante are his talents. They do get some others, but for they are usually about the dual identity or about intimidation. For the most part the other class features pale in comparison to the class abilities of other classes. Even a fighter has better class abilities than the other class abilities of the vigilante. Gaining multiple feats is simply a way to try and catch up with the other classes.
The most powerful class-based abilities are usually the capstone abilities of select bloodlines and revelations. The final revelation of an oracle of heavens is pretty hard to beat. The final revelation of the lore mystery gives you a free wish per day (But cannot grant ability bonuses or duplicate spells with expensive components). A 20th level phoenix bloodline sorcerer gets a free true resurrection per day.
My responses based on some posts:
Rogues (chained and unchained) have access to the Rogue Talent "Stalker Talent" which let's them take Vigilante talents.
Overall though, I don't think that Paizo saw the things you listed as "too powerful" and that it's more likely that they wanted classes to feel different. (But I could be wrong; I really have no idea)
Un-Rogues get 1 Stalker talent the way I read it. Only 1. "A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once." There are some archetypes and other things out there that give you 1 Vig talent, which is what I'd said. I didn't mean to imply they were 'too powerful', simply on the list of some of the most powerful ablities in the game.
Speaker for the Past Shamans get revelations. Other class features that meet your criteria are Eidolons and Major and Grand Hexes.
I did miss this. They do get access to two mysteries and their revelations. As for Eidolons, I've never had an interest in the Summoner class but I do know the Unchained Summoner was an attempt to nerf the class a bit because the spell list of the original class was unbalanced.
As far as Hexes: Restless Slumber is certainly OP, but you can't get Grand Hexes until level 18 (when a lot of crazy abilities kick in for several classes). The weakness of witches to me is most of their hexes just don't work well on the undead. I'm on the fence about it, to be honest.
I also totally spaced the Extra Revelation feat.
I care that the lv 11 oracle who replaced two revelations through an archetype will still have all 4-5 good revelations, when the game ends at lv 12.
It's neither here nor there but I'd say it's level 14, and after that it becomes more and more Rocket Tag.
While ranger style feats allow a character to take the feat without meeting the prerequisite, the feats themselves can be taken by anyone meeting the prerequisite.
The whole point is they can take them without meeting prerequisites, and getting them earlier as well. Making a two-weapon build and completely ignoring Dexterity is amazing, as is getting feats like Trick Riding at level 2 instead of 9, or getting Shield Master 6 levels early!
The only real class features of the vigilante are his talents. They do get some others, but for they are usually about the dual identity or about intimidation. For the most part the other class features pale in comparison to the class abilities of other classes
Saying the only good class feature of the vigilante are talents is like saying the only class good feature of a Cleric or a Wizard is they can cast spells. Casting spells is the point!
As for 'paling in comparison' we'll have to agree to disagree. Vigilantes are far, far more versatile than fighters and it's entirely due to their talents, both social and vigilante. Socially they make great faces (diplomacy and intimidate), and are the best infiltrators in the game. In combat Avengers make great two-handed, AoO, Sword and Board, Unarmed Strike, Natural Weapons, Dex/Finesse, reach, grapple and mounted warriors just like fighters can.
Meanwhile Stalkers (particularly Teisatsus) combine the best elements of rogues and ninjas, and can demoralize better than everyone else on top of it. I'll grant you that fighters make arguably the best magehunters in the game, but Vigis can be very good at that too. Again, because of their talents.
Vigilante talents are so effective at clearing away prerequisites, granting you bundles of feats, and gifting you bonuses found nowhere else in Pathfinder that you can essentially build whatever you want.
So it's not really up for debate whether vigilante talents, oracle revelations or ranger style feats are very powerful, it's what other class features can match them.
Spell Keening from the Skald.
That's true, it is a great ability only limited by its number of uses. Still, paired with Inspired Rage half or more of the party can benefit from Rage without fatigue as well. Skalds are pretty awesome.
Arcane Apotheosis is great, but so are a lot of level 20 abilities. Most of us don't play at level 20.
J
Speaker for the Past Shamans get revelations. Other class features that meet your criteria are Eidolons and Major and Grand Hexes.As far as Hexes: Restless Slumber is certainly OP, but you can't get Grand Hexes until level 18 (when a lot of crazy abilities kick in for several classes). The weakness of witches to me is most of their hexes just don't work well on the undead. I'm on the fence about it, to be honest.
Speaker for the Past not only get revelations and get to choose from 2 mysteries, but the Ancestors mystery is good and the Time mystery may be the best.
As to Witches, that is my favourite class.
Yes, you don't get grand hexes to level 18 when their are immense levels of power flowing around. But have a look at his one-
"Animal Servant (Su)
Benefit(s): The witch can use this hex to turn a humanoid enemy into an animal and rob it of its free will.
The transformation works as beast shape II and is negated by a successful Will save. The transformed creature retains its Intelligence score and known languages, if any, but the witch controls its mind. This effect functions as dominate monster, except the creature does not receive further saving throws to resist the hex. The effect can be removed only with wish or similar magic, although slaying the witch also ends the effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Enemies become my slaves. Now that is just perfect.
No hexes do not work well, well a lot do not work at all, on Undead. Or Contructs. But unless you are playing "Mummy's Mask" or something similar most monsters are not. You are still a full arcane prepared caster and you can prepare spells to deal with undead if you expect them or just in case.
Speaker for the Past Shamans get revelations. Other class features that meet your criteria are Eidolons and Major and Grand Hexes.As far as Hexes: Restless Slumber is certainly OP, but you can't get Grand Hexes until level 18 (when a lot of crazy abilities kick in for several classes). The weakness of witches to me is most of their hexes just don't work well on the undead. I'm on the fence about it, to be honest.
Speaker for the Past not only get revelations and get to choose from 2 mysteries, but the Ancestors mystery is good and the Time mystery may be the best.
As to Witches, that is my favourite class.
Yes, you don't get grand hexes to level 18 when their are immense levels of power flowing around. But have a look at his one-
"Animal Servant (Su)
Benefit(s): The witch can use this hex to turn a humanoid enemy into an animal and rob it of its free will.
The transformation works as beast shape II and is negated by a successful Will save. The transformed creature retains its Intelligence score and known languages, if any, but the witch controls its mind. This effect functions as dominate monster, except the creature does not receive further saving throws to resist the hex. The effect can be removed only with wish or similar magic, although slaying the witch also ends the effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."
Enemies become my slaves. Now that is just perfect.
No hexes do not work well, and a lot do not work at all, on Undead. Or Contructs. But unless you are playing "Mummy's Mask" or something similar most monsters are not undead. You are still a full arcane prepared caster and you can prepare spells to deal with undead if you expect them or just in case.
While maybe not he most powerful I would talk about the most restricted -as in stuff that one won't easily get via feats\traits\items and must get from his class. As someone who like to make up builds, while some things can be taken by any class if you invest the above resources some are just extremely hard to come by. for example a familiar (and improved familiar) or animal companion, can be taken up with feats and with the right amount even rank up to be as effective as the same level class ability.
- unlimited rogue talents. I'm not talking about an unlimited amount but the ability to pick ANY rogue talent and not a specific rogue talent from an exciting limited list. this came up from my desire to have both explosive runes spell as well as the cunny trigger rogue talent. and mashing them both in a class without going overly multi classed or giving up too much to gain both (also not wait to be over level 10 to gain them, such as gaining the spell as a sla from feats).
- unlimited hex\revolutions. Same as above unlimited as per not from a limited list rather an excess to any one that you'd like. and for any class that you use not just specific themed archetype.
- Full at level eidolon with at level evolution pool and full range evolutions (not limited to a list or few evolution points that an animal companion taken via feats would trump it in any way, shape or form.)
I’m a big fan of the Sensei Monk for higher level abilities from Qingong Monk. Granting the whole party CL 12 barkskin or deadly juggernaut is fun, but putting battlemind link between every party member breaks the combat system.
Those are terrific abilities, and Barkskin obviates the need for Amulets of Natural Armor too, freeing the slot up for other things. I didn't even know about Battlemind Link which is very cool. I think it'd be even better on a Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, who can be come nigh-unstoppable when sharing it with their animal companion. My general issue is I don't think the regular chained Monk is a particularly good class, same with the chained Rogue. I feel the unchained versions are straight upgrades. That's just my opinion.
Thanks for the comments JJ, and you do make good points. Poaching Mysteries/Revelations is very powerful, particularly those two. That's why they're on my list of powerful abilities. I didn't even know about Animal Servant, that's hilarious. A useful place to use that would be the Witchwar Legacy adventure module. If you have played it I'd be interested in what you think.
As someone who like to make up builds, while some things can be taken by any class if you invest the above resources some are just extremely hard to come by. for example a familiar (and improved familiar) or animal companion, can be taken up with feats and with the right amount even rank up to be as effective as the same level class ability.
I agree completely. In fact yesterday I was thinking about this, and I think druid-type animal companions can really be game changers, and they are hard to level without taking an associated class. Eidolons are definitely up there as well. You can take the feat Horse Master I guess, but you definitely have to jump through some hoops to do it. I'm definitely adding that to the list. Familiars are along the same lines, especially improved familiars. They can even get cheesy, for example taking a Faerie Dragon is just bonkers OP depending on how they rule they increase levels as a sorcerer.
J
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I’m a big fan of the Sensei Monk for higher level abilities from Qingong Monk. Granting the whole party CL 12 barkskin or deadly juggernaut is fun, but putting battlemind link between every party member breaks the combat system.Those are terrific abilities, and Barkskin obviates the need for Amulets of Natural Armor too, freeing the slot up for other things. I didn't even know about Battlemind Link which is very cool. I think it'd be even better on a Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, who can be come nigh-unstoppable when sharing it with their animal companion. My general issue is I don't think the regular chained Monk is a particularly good class, same with the chained Rogue. I feel the unchained versions are straight upgrades. That's just my opinion.
You just built my lvl 20 PFS character! I should add that Abundant Step/ dimension door is also a Qingong option, which means you can move the entire party on your turn to whereever they want to be placed without the drawback of them not being able to act, since the action occurs before their next turn.
I've been thinking about class abilities that are really powerful, so much so that Paizo hardly lets any other archetypes or feats poach them.
You're way overrating this aspect. Not only is this not at all an indication of power, some abilites are or would be less powerful on every classes.
The strongest non-spell-casting class feature is Eidolon, nothing even comes close.
I'd actually put Witch hexes as second strongest, but unlike Eidolon, you can't make them work at full power on every character. Hexcrafter Magus and Sylvan Trickster Rogue are martials, they neither have a maxed out Int, nor can they afford to spend most of their actions in combat on using hexes. Divine Scourge Cleric only gets a limited list of hexes, and Oracle an only grab one Witch hex, which severely reduces the impact.
Also very high on the list is the Summon Monster SLA, various Wild Shape variations (shoutout to the Weretouched Shifter version), and Ki Powers (invisibility, walk-through-walls, and flight at 4th level anyone?).
There are no "extra vigilante talent" feats out there, and the only archetypes of other classes I know of that can access them can get one specific talent. Paizo really limits access to them, and for a reason: just one talent can contain the equivalent of 2-4 feats, and abilities that are found practically nowhere else in the game.
Vigilante Talents are weaker than similar class's selectable class features (Rage Powers, Ki Powers, etc.). Being stronger than feats is totally normal (that Rogue Talents aren't is one of the class's main issues, actually), it's just that most of them are significantly different from what you can get from feats and thus you can't take Extra X with every feat lest you end up to unbalanced. VTs beign often nothing but a feat with some added benefit meansyou don't have that issue, and thus players would be much more likely to take Extra VT with every feat slot - which would be a critical design error.
For my two cents I'd just like to add Opportune Parry and Riposte. One of my personal favorite examples of "the best defense is a good offense". Pump up your attack and Charisma (and Intelligence if you're going Inspired Blade) and suddenly when it really matters nothing can hit you. As far as I'm aware there aren't ways for other classes to get this, though I could be wrong about that.
Magus can get it, and via VMC Monk can get it with stronger pool recovery. Of course, such a Monk would usually rather spam Accurate Strike and make all their many, many attacks against touch AC, even when the enemy was across the room.
I find shared conciousness from Spiritualist pretty potent.
With a dedication phantom, its Iron will, an additional +4 vs mind affecting, 2 usefull skill foci and a once per day get out of jail if you fail a willsave card.
Phantoms are weaker the Eidolons (much less flexibile, share slots with the spiritualist etc.), but a level 1 dip in spiritualist is incredibly potent, owing to how massively powerful this ability is.
The Unchained Monk ki powers and there are no extra ki powers.
Many Kineiticist utility powers are really good.
Summoner's summoning ability that is summon monster but quicker and last much longer.
I'd actually put Witch hexes as second strongest, but unlike Eidolon, you can't make them work at full power on every character. Hexcrafter Magus and Sylvan Trickster Rogue are martials, they neither have a maxed out Int, nor can they afford to spend most of their actions in combat on using hexes.The strongest non-spell-casting class feature is Eidolon, nothing even comes close.
Also very high on the list is the Summon Monster SLA,
Sylvan Tricksters seem to be a bit of a well kept secret. They are the only class or archetype that gets major and grand hexes except for the Witch.
You are right of course that they won't have as high an int as a Witch, but the availability of Hexes adds vastly to their flexibility. And they pay less for it than an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Scoundrel does for their spells.
I played a Master Summoner prompted by the notion I could improve on a build of Mercurial's. The Summon Monster SLA, when it is not restricted to one use at a time and suitably built around can be really overwhelming. Nobody will let me play one again but I am finished with the idea anyway.