New Round of Class Archetypes

[WWHsmackdown]

Wanted to make a dedicated thread to talk about all the class archetypes (so I can get more class archetype content). I'll start:

Battle harbinger: wave casting martial cleric that loses font and access to font feats

Bloodrager: reduced damage barb that gets a sorc dedication for free and doesn't need to moment of clarity for spells (my probably wrong guess is build-a-wave-caster that sacrifices a LOT of barb stuff).

Holy Avenger: rogue with spirit damage and sanctification?

Palantine Investigator: no clue someone help

[androyd09]

I assume these are all guesses then?

Also, was blooodrager mentioned somewhere? The blog post does not mention barb or the archetype, and I didn't catch it on the stream.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

WWH wrote:

Palantine Investigator: no clue someone help

Only thing I can say is the Palatines were said to gain access to divine magic through unique means, so kind of assuming a divine metjodology... Does anyone suppose this is also part of the Inquisitor olive branch alongside the avenger?

[WWHsmackdown]

androyd09 wrote:

I assume these are all guesses then?

Also, was blooodrager mentioned somewhere? The blog post does not mention barb or the archetype, and I didn't catch it on the stream.

Yea I'm just spit balling.

Bloodrager class archetype is called out in the WoI product description along with avenger rogue. Battle harbinger cleric class archetype is called out in the divine mysteries product description. I think the palantine Investigator was called out in the stream? I can't remember that one

[WWHsmackdown]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

WWH wrote:

Palantine Investigator: no clue someone help

Only thing I can say is the Palatines were said to gain access to divine magic through unique means, so kind of assuming a divine metjodology... Does anyone suppose this is also part of the Inquisitor olive branch alongside the avenger?

Well, an investigator with its precision damage turned into spirit damage (plus a commander dedication) WOULD cover a lot of Inquisitor ground

[keftiu]

I'm so tickled that we're seemingly getting both a Divine Rogue and (maybe?) a Divine Investigator - is the Palatine really a Class Archetype, and not a standard one?

[Sanityfaerie]

I'm prepared to be... cautiously optimistic.

It would be really nice to have the possibility of class archetypes that aren't simply terrible on their face.

We'll see.

[Grankless]

keftiu wrote:

I'm so tickled that we're seemingly getting both a Divine Rogue and (maybe?) a Divine Investigator - is the Palatine really a Class Archetype, and not a standard one?

Said so on stream! It's specific for Investigator.

[Deriven Firelion]

Interesting.

[Perpdepog]

WWHsmackdown wrote:

androyd09 wrote:

I assume these are all guesses then?

Also, was blooodrager mentioned somewhere? The blog post does not mention barb or the archetype, and I didn't catch it on the stream.

Yea I'm just spit balling.

Bloodrager class archetype is called out in the WoI product description along with avenger rogue. Battle harbinger cleric class archetype is called out in the divine mysteries product description. I think the palantine Investigator was called out in the stream? I can't remember that one

It was, yarp. My hope is it's less overtly divine, and more to do with the spirit essence, so you can get some divine or occult flavor with your investigator. I'm hoping for a way to gain some spell slots, do a bit of spirit damage like you said, and deal with spirits, maybe finding ghostly traces and so on. Granted some of that could come through feats.

[Evan Tarlton]

Avenger: I think you're on the money. A spirit damage attack instead of sneak attack, probably with a different triggering condition.

Battle Herald: "Divine Magus" is my guess, with font-like abilities in place of the magus' bonus spells.

Bloodrager: I think your first guess is correct. I'd add a diminished hit die, probably a d10.

Palatine Detective: Either an investigator that gets spirit damage instead of precision damage or one that gets a mandated divine casting multiclass.

Rivethun Emissary: Almost certainly an animist class archetype, maybe with spirits only it can take and with more/stricter edicts and anathemas.

[Dragonchess Player]

Palatine Detective/Investigator: My guess is it could be an updated version of the True Silvered Throne, but for the investigator class; associated with the Order of the Palatine Eye. Possibly adding spellcasting like avenger rogue or bloodrager barbarian, which would be more than just a methodology (IMO).

[AestheticDialectic]

My hope for the bloodrager is that it doesn't copy the 1e version too literally but instead creates it based on the vibe of what it was. Simply adding dedication and the ability to cast spells while raging would be very disappointing

[pixierose]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

My hope for the bloodrager is that it doesn't copy the 1e version too literally but instead creates it based on the vibe of what it was. Simply adding dedication and the ability to cast spells while raging would be very disappointing

Agreed. One of my favorite things about bloodrager was how the bloodlines could behave differently than the sorcerer ones. Now I doubt we will get full fledged mechanics for multiple bloodlines, but if let Bloodrager be its own thing that would help keep it be distinct.

[exequiel759]

I mean, I wouldn't hope for the bloodrager to have its own set of bloodlines. It's a class archetype, and they are going to make an equivalent for each sorcerer bloodline for just an archetype.

[pixierose]

I mean thats what I said as well. That is why I said "i Doubt,"

Its what I would have wanted if it was its own class. But they chose to go about it via class archetype so I'm trying to hope that the bloodrager still feels distinct and not just the sorcerer archetype taped on.

[Bluemagetim]

I really am looking forward to bloodrager as an archtype. I would love to make a sorcerer and then arctype into blood rager. I just hope the archtype gels as well with sorcerer in cool ways for a more caster oriented bloodrager as it would with barbarian for a full martial bloodrager.

[AestheticDialectic]

Bluemagetim wrote:

I really am looking forward to bloodrager as an archtype. I would love to make a sorcerer and then arctype into blood rager. I just hope the archtype gels as well with sorcerer in cool ways for a more caster oriented bloodrager as it would with barbarian for a full martial bloodrager.

It's a barbarian class archetype, so one of those ones you take at first level and then they say you have to take its dedication at level 2. Like spellshot

[Ezekieru]

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Rivethun Emissary: Almost certainly an animist class archetype, maybe with spirits only it can take and with more/stricter edicts and anathemas.

Luis Loza has stated that Rivethun Emissary is a regular archetype, not a class archetype, in one of the Discord servers.

[Bluemagetim]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

I really am looking forward to bloodrager as an archtype. I would love to make a sorcerer and then arctype into blood rager. I just hope the archtype gels as well with sorcerer in cool ways for a more caster oriented bloodrager as it would with barbarian for a full martial bloodrager.

It's a barbarian class archetype, so one of those ones you take at first level and then they say you have to take its dedication at level 2. Like spellshot

Ah thanks.

[Evan Tarlton]

Ezekieru wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Rivethun Emissary: Almost certainly an animist class archetype, maybe with spirits only it can take and with more/stricter edicts and anathemas.

Luis Loza has stated that Rivethun Emissary is a regular archetype, not a class archetype, in one of the Discord servers.

Noted. Thank you!

[Blave]

I think they mentioned Rage becoming better in the remaster. This may or may not mean the limitation on Concentration effects is gone. It's certainly something I would change about Rage since it interferes with too many things. So maybe Bloodrager allowing spells while raging won't even be necessary.

[masda_gib]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

My hope for the bloodrager is that it doesn't copy the 1e version too literally but instead creates it based on the vibe of what it was. Simply adding dedication and the ability to cast spells while raging would be very disappointing

I also hope they involve the bloodlines a bit more than just giving casting and the Focus spells.

Activating the Blood Magic effect when entering rage or punching someone or doing other stuff would be cool!

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I would expect to see feats along thr lines of, "If you have a Primal bloodline, when you rage unleash a burst of flames" or "If you have an Arcane bloodline, once per turn recall knowledge for free when you hit something"

[Brytheold]

I assume Palatine Investigator is going to be 2e's version of Inquisitor since they're not going to do an actual class/Archetype called Inquisitor because of the negative connotation that comes with Inquisition and Inquisitor.

[exequiel759]

Blave wrote:

I think they mentioned Rage becoming better in the remaster.

I think this more likely would reference the 1 minute coldown of rage, which if the barbarian is knocked down means they can't rage for the rest of combat, thus lose all their class features.

[Sanityfaerie]

Brytheold wrote:

I assume Palatine Investigator is going to be 2e's version of Inquisitor since they're not going to do an actual class/Archetype called Inquisitor because of the negative connotation that comes with Inquisition and Inquisitor.

Well, the Avenger is probably picking up some of that theme as well.

My read is that they've got Avenger, Palatine Investigator, and Thaumaturge, and if you had an Inquisitor character concept, you can probably fit it reasonably well into one of those... possibly with an archetype or two to handle things like the "good at teamwork" theme.

[Gaulin]

Definitely happy to see class archetypes, I'm in the camp that I would like to see expanded older classes more than brand new classes at this point.

I also hope that we get more support for non core classes. Core classes already get the most toys, let's get some fun stuff for magus, inventor, thaumaturge etc.

[WWHsmackdown]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Brytheold wrote:

I assume Palatine Investigator is going to be 2e's version of Inquisitor since they're not going to do an actual class/Archetype called Inquisitor because of the negative connotation that comes with Inquisition and Inquisitor.

Well, the Avenger is probably picking up some of that theme as well.

My read is that they've got Avenger, Palatine Investigator, and Thaumaturge, and if you had an Inquisitor character concept, you can probably fit it reasonably well into one of those... possibly with an archetype or two to handle things like the "good at teamwork" theme.

Yep, I think there's going to be a lot of angles to tackle it from

[Red Griffyn]

Unless they specifically said the cleric wave caster loses font, I'd guess it is simply delayed or slowly scales (just like how the magus get extra studious spells, it makes sense to decrease font slots at L2 and scale up to match the cleric by L20 or maybe have them be 2 levels below highest slot/etc.

I hope all the class archetypes improve on the gunslinger baseline and effectively provide at least a L2 feat as part of the dedication (e.g., you get emblazon armament just like how the dual weapon warrior provides double slice) so it isn't as negative an impact. There should be a bit of a power boost provided to make up for being locked out of archetypes until L8. But there are so many good cleric feats for a martial that the fact that they are doing this is exciting.

But overall I've been asking for wave caster archetypes for druid/cleric/bard for years so... I am very excited. I'll have to wait to see how it was executed before I up that excitement level to ecstatic.

I hope it facilitates a more general wave caster archetype that can be applied to any caster (or at least bard/druid) by giving us a view on how Paizo would balance the +- of martial progression vs full casting.

For the bloodrager, I hope they can capture the essence of the arcane bloodrager. Mechanically it was when you rage you gain the benefits of a spell at the same time (blur, haste, fly, etc.). Maybe they could even explore a finesse/urban bloodrager.

I'm excited for all these martials that might just have the 'cast a spell' activity that can use spellhearts without needing to jump through hoops and have a monk/ranger scaling spell DC that is better than the multiclass Expert 12, Master 18. I know other's are saying they want more, but in some respects even if it was on level access to focus points (say for the bloodrager vs. sorcerer bloodlines) that IS a big boost vs. barbarian + sorcerer dedication where all those things come at half level progression. I haven't analyzed all the current FP on sorcerer to see if there are really good combos for a melee bruiser vs. caster focused ones, but I'm sure there are reasonable ones (even the angelic L6/spell rank 3 focus point gives you a fly speed, which is very nice for a melee martial).

If they are giving any of the subclasses/class archetypes spellcasting, I hope they scale better than a MC. That was the biggest weakness of the eldritch trickster (it just literally didn't get better and was too delayed to reliably land spells or cantrips).