I haven't run an adventure ever above level 15, and rarely make it to level 10 before real life conspires against one of my campaigns. For several years I have run a hybrid of the Lost City of Barakus and homebrewed adventures which is nearing it's natural conclusion in the megadungeon; PCs are L13 and hot on the heels of the BBEG of the titular lost city.
A couple sessions ago my players asked if we can continue this campaign after this expected end. I have to admit, this stopped me. I'd fully planned to start a new campaign in the setting to the point where I'd already started writing up random encounter tables.
Anyone have tips or suggestions for adventures between 15th-20th level? Like, I can pick some monsters out of the bestiaries and try to come up with fights but I don't have a lot of plot threads dangling out there. I do have one re: the elemental plane of fire and a war there, but like I said I didn't really revisit that, instead thinking I'd end and restart something new.
There are many different ways to run higher levels games. It all depends on how your players and you want to go about it. Generally speaking, at 15th+ level, your players are going to be able to handle quite a lot of challenges, especially if you are not able to reduce their available daily resources in the adventuring day (and they have a lot).
I've had a lot of success in my high level games by intentionally designing the 'adventure' to require them to stretch themselves thin by having multiple events occurring across the game world in such a way as to prevent them from being able to tackle them all at once. They can be something as simple as several cults suddenly rising to power and causing havok, to separate kingdoms deciding to go to war, or both at the same time (mostly because the later is influenced by the former).
Characters of high level tend to have deep roots in the game world through all the connections to the NPCs they have formed. Simply putting a possible threat to the safety of those NPCs is enough to heavily motivate PCs to action, whether that is nearby land is being swallowed up by a 'sinkhole' into another realm, or an army from a neighboring kingdom is soon to march through the area.
I don't know your game world well enough to suggest anything more specific than that. Going from past experience with your posts (and what I have heard of your players), this might be a bit of a challenge as they seem to be focused a lot on the fighting side of the game system.
Thanks for the suggestions D O. For reference if folks need it, the setting is the area around Endholme in the Lost Lands setting of the Frog God Games/Necromancer Games world. As for NPCs, there are staggeringly few.
You're right, One Who Does Not Die, my players are obsessively focused on the mechanics and fighting of this game system. They like playing the system, with story being secondary. 2 of them HAVE come around a bit on this over the past year (we play monthly sessions), but this helps explain why they have so few NPC connections. In short, every campaign they've played before now they've been CN mercenary types just looking to amass personal power.
Your point about multiple conflicts at once though is a good point. Right now at 13th level the PCs have a single dungeon and regardless of its size they essentially have 2 things they have to get done: find a maguffin and also find the entry point to the BBEG's lair.
They've never really had to deal with multiple fires at once. Thanks again for the bit of advice, I'll take it to heart. If anyone else has adventures I should review or other suggestions let me know.
Being Mercenary Types they did build connections. You just haven't realized it yet.
Party was hired by client A. Mission was successful. Party leaves. Client A talks about Party to Clients B, C, and D. From one mission the party has gained some renown. They are indirectly connected to Clients B, C, and D through Client A. The land of the Linnorm Kings books use a renown system I love for things like this. To help the Party build connections.
Unfortunately, I can't really give advice as to where to go from where they are as I don't know the setting that well nor how your players really interact with the world on whole.
Murder Hobos love fighting, but build enemies quickly that could be amassing power.
Political groups usually have fun with the interactions they have and things like court intrigue could serve to keep them happy or even building a kingdom itself.
Do they have any ambitions besides wealth? Have they made enemies? Anything in their backstories you haven't exploited yet?
Having run a group that hit level 20 some years ago, I found it really helped that two of the players were old school enough to remember the days of BECMI and the other two were happy to get in on that stuff. This meant domains and quests for Immortality.
Domains are wonderful because even if you want to handwave the nitty gritty management they still need to worry about diplomacy, taking care of various problems that pop up, setting up laws and institutions, etc. However, it sounds like this might not be for your group. If you haven't already, you could try to start small, like giving the PCs a stronghold and then force politics on to them (local lords wanting to get to know them, border disputes, invasions from hostile neighors, etc.)
Immortality is great because it gives them a long-term goal to accomplish that requires a bit more than just killing and looting.
Dig out/get hold of copies of either the gold box Immortals set or Wrath of the Immortals and have fun.
AS for high level adventures, I have used just about all the old BECMI modules at one time or another. I have to upgrade a few encounters to work at high level PF1, but the basic plots work well enough for high level play.
You might want to do what I have done with existing APs: take them and mercilessly alter them to fit with my campaign world. As a bit of fun you can let your players start on them normally, and let them feel just how powerful they have become when they go through level 1 adventures. Then they can feel cool when they stop high level problems at the end.
The ting to remember if you decide to do this is to know the AP in and out because they may decide to go straight to the BBEG, bypassing the majority of the AP.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Thanks for the suggestions D O. For reference if folks need it, the setting is the area around Endholme in the Lost Lands setting of the Frog God Games/Necromancer Games world. As for NPCs, there are staggeringly few. Ah, as expected. I don't really touch 3rd party stuff in PF1e, so I can only give general advice on setting material.
Quote: You're right, One Who Does Not Die, my players are obsessively focused on the mechanics and fighting of this game system. They like playing the system, with story being secondary. 2 of them HAVE come around a bit on this over the past year (we play monthly sessions), but this helps explain why they have so few NPC connections. In short, every campaign they've played before now they've been CN mercenary types just looking to amass personal power. Well, it seems you still have some time before they get to the point of 15th level. You might be able to start introducing the plot elements and ties in the mean time.
Quote: Your point about multiple conflicts at once though is a good point. Right now at 13th level the PCs have a single dungeon and regardless of its size they essentially have 2 things they have to get done: find a maguffin and also find the entry point to the BBEG's lair. Might be able to inject a 'Delphine got here first' moment (skyrim reference those that know), and have someone beat them to the maguffin, setting them up on a bit of a side adventure which can give you room to widen your options for future events.
Quote: They've never really had to deal with multiple fires at once. Thanks again for the bit of advice, I'll take it to heart. If anyone else has adventures I should review or other suggestions let me know. Well, one of my first experiments with this method was to simply crack open the book 'Elder Evils' (D&D 3.5) and use the content within to set up a progressively intense unfolding of events. I organized the signs by effective character level and fed the hooks for each to the players to see how they would react, which they bit on, and which ones they didn't. Those they ignored or couldn't get to progressed in severity.
Eventually, they were left with three fairly dangerous events happening simultaneously and had to decide what to pursue. They were clever and used their NPC contacts to direct resources towards slowing the other problems until they could be addressed, and it all culminated in an epic climax of action and nail biting heroics.
the game can pivot to a wider or more strategic view, depends.
Spellcasting can make things do or die(or suck).
I'm familiar with FGGs stuff as I attended several conventions very friendly with them. Very old skool really. I broke a few things.
I'd have your players write 2-4 paragraphs about where they see their chacters at 20th level, what they've accomplished. That alone will guide you and tell you many key things. It is not so much about making their dreams come true but about discovering their wants & desires, motivations & expectations.
Your foes will have to revolve around CR+2 to 5, and don't forget 25-33% social/trap/puzzle challenges! LoL. Yes... they are decried but think of them as rests from martial challenges. They are also ways to inject authorial info, plot clues and background thematics.
Campaign setting is like a plays setting or theme, it has emotional tones and meaning. Don't muddy your theme.
we find it pretty easy to run any AP, and boost them to do levels 1-20. Combat manager makes it easy to bring in the bad guys from the scenario on the fly, max their HP's, give them a template or two, and increase their numbers until their CR is somewhat close to the APL of the party.
the only thing we need to truly modify are the BBEG, and we just build them up in HeroLab as written, then add levels until they are on par with the party. pretty much everything else takes care of itself.
Things that are still interesting for level 15 to 20 (non mythic).
--If they are CN, a major war in the Abyss is brewing. The Demonlord, lets say Orcus, who was backing the BBEG all along (and who has raised the BBEG back) vs Nocticula.
--Nocticulas "mortal resources" Succubus shows up, with an angel in tow who grudingly admits that this one does not lie when recruiting mercenaries, and offers to hire the PCs. After all, the BBEG works for Nocticulas enemies, and the players are thus the enemy of Nocticulas enemy and thus a source of additional military power.
--You can file of the serial number of acts 4,5 and 6 of wrath of the rigtheous. Doing these without mythic will, in contrast to these acts as written, actually be challenging.
What kind of characters do your players have? That could help narrow down the plot threads.
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In my experience high level campaigns work the best in the hostile Outer Planes. That way it doesn’t seem weird to be constantly fighting overpowered foes and the environment itself can be used to challenge them. Plus the PCs can become unwitting pawns in cosmic power struggles of epic proportions.
Here’s an idea:
The PCs are invited to the King’s banquet to celebrate the success of their adventures. Mid-way through the banquet a horde of devils arrives led by a ridiculously powerful mythic archduke of Hell, the personal emissary of Asmodeus himself. The PCs are completely outmatched. The devils slaughter everyone including the PCs and take their stuff before leaving. After the battle the King and one PC is revived (preferably one who can revive the others) by the royal healer with a Raise Dead spell. They awake to find the royal banquet hall desecrated and covered in Infernal writing mocking the fallen heroes. Feel free to insert whatever insults will rile the PCs the most. The idea is to make them want revenge so desperately they will travel to Hell to get it. Thus the campaign begins.
The best opponents for a high-level campaign are often a character built on the same basis as the PC,’s but slightly more powerful. By that I mean a player character class built with the same point buy and
WBL of a PC. Add a few levels and or a template to boost the power. Give the character appropriate followers and you should be good. I usually give any Boss the equivalent of leadership. Also, at that level factor in things like planar binding and planar ally spells.
I used a high-level vampire oracle of shadows for a major villain in one campaign. I was working on a graveknight ordain type character with 2 levels of antipaladin and 13 levels of oracle of battle. I took the Hellbound curse and made Ruinous Revivifcation Acid, but I think it might be a little too much. Being immune to ability drain, acid, bleed, cold death effects, disease, electricity, energy drain, exhausted, fatigue, fire, mind affecting effects, nonlethal damage, paralysis, physical ability damage, poison, sleep and stunning and having extremely high saving throws means spell casters are at a severe handicap. His AC when smiting good is high enough that any good marital class is going to have trouble.
Phoebus, the PCs are a Wizard (Fire Elementalist)13, Paladin 13, and an Un Rogue (Scout) 13. The Paladin travels with his Cleric of Pharasma 11 Cohort and the Rogue has a Bard (Busker Bard) 11 Cohort.
About midway through the campaign, the PCs began collecting lesser maguffins which would get them to the maguffin they now seek. One of those lesser quests involved fire elementals, the City of Brass and a possible connection between the wizard and a matriarch of the city. I've also planted seeds of a war on that plane which could spill across multiple planes.
I think this is probably the direction I will take things. The players don't seem particularly interested but I don't really have any other plot threads hanging out there since I figured I'd wrap the campaign when the current BBEG buys it.
For even more info, the players are vets who've played PF1 exclusively since '09, so they are very good technically. The one concession I gave them before starting is that they get to roll stats so the PCs have some ridiculously high arrays as no one rolled particularly bad. That, coupled with crafting their own items, being extremely methodical over time and just being very good at combat mechanics means that putting fight scenes in front of these PCs can swing wildly.
your play Shakespeare's Tragedy - Titus Andronicus with "14 killings, 9 of them on stage, 6 severed members, 1 rape (or 2 or 3, depending on how you count), 1 live burial, 1 case of insanity and 1 of cannibalism. An average of 5.2 atrocities per act, or one for every 97 lines." Whom shall the PCs side with early on; Titus, Tamora? Where shall it lead?
for canned adventures there's PFS season 8, #8-25 Unleashing the Untouchable. The arc is about releasing the capture N to G elemental demigod.
next is Season 9, #9-25 Betrayal in the Bones. The arc is about stopping a demoniac and an assassin — in the Five Kings Mountains.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: I think this is probably the direction I will take things. The players don't seem particularly interested but I don't really have any other plot threads hanging out there since I figured I'd wrap the campaign when the current BBEG buys it. To be honest, I'm a bit mystified by your players' lack of interest in what seems like a rather intense hook. Are they not interested in the setting and the enemies that would entail, do they not feel like it takes into account their character arcs and goals, or is it something else altogether?
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: Mark Hoover 330 wrote: I think this is probably the direction I will take things. The players don't seem particularly interested but I don't really have any other plot threads hanging out there since I figured I'd wrap the campaign when the current BBEG buys it. To be honest, I'm a bit mystified by your players' lack of interest in what seems like a rather intense hook. Are they not interested in the setting and the enemies that would entail, do they not feel like it takes into account their character arcs and goals, or is it something else altogether? Ask my players, they'll say they care but they can only focus on slaying the BBEG, whichever one is in their sites at the time. Or get this maguffin. Or stop this event or ritual.
One thing at a time, with narrowly defined stakes and consequences. These players have gotten better at roleplaying over the years, but they don't actually inhabit a role. Gaming for them is a mechanical hobby, like a video game or a board game.
Their goals or arcs are thus mechanically based: build a wizard's tower, not bc I envision one in my mind's eye but because it generates x bonus for y Capital or GP. I want to hit L5 so I can get a sacred mount; I want to hit L8 bc Scout's Charge, and so on.
Now, bc of this style of play, they never go LOOKING for anything, at least, nothing specific. The rogue PC for example has owned a bar she helped build since L3. Rather than develop a guild, or even keep tabs on specific things in the city, since APL4, during Downtime, the player rolls Gather Info checks and asks me what rumors she's hearing around the bar, or occasionally she'll use Stealth and Perception to eavesdrop from the rooftops at night.
It's hard to explain in text, but the player is waiting for plot points to come TO her, not exploring them on her own, y'know? Like they never ask "are there notable dragons in the area?" and research that, but if a rumor of a dragon hit's their ears they seize on it, use spells and skills to learn all they can then spear-head an attack on the thing's lair.
So, for all the above reasons, I'll probably have an NPC they interacted with, who has ties to the plane of fire, show up at one of their doors near death. He'll explain how things have gotten crazy there and the Sultana of the City of Brass has started a planar war. That'll be the push they need to start the decision tree they need to work through to resolve specific plot points.
From there the PCs will then research, figure out what spells/items they need for planar survival, go to the plane of fire, and start fighting Mortal Kombat style up a chain of planar foes until they deal with the Sultana herself.
interesting. At least they give you opportunities to introduce authorial information. I've had some players that just sit there and look at you(GM)...
So, I'd agree that a Real Challenge would be too much info (rumor mill) with 3 plots at once. That means 1 baddie needs a social focus class or henchman.
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
One thing that probably should get emphasized with high-level play: Don't make a habit of restricting the high level abilities and magic available to the PCs; instead, make the abilities and magic needed to advance the story. Frequent restrictions ("divinations don't work, no teleportation or summon spells, etc.") tend to cheapen high level play, almost turning it into low level play just with bigger numbers. It also provides a little versimilitude on why the high level PCs are the ones that need to be involved.
Picking up the last couple of volumes of Tyrant's Grasp or Return of the Runelords might help give you some ideas on how to set-up challenges for players who may have higher levels of system mastery.
Dragonchess Player is right about restrictions. The idea is to cause the players to have to use their resources before a fight. The more you resources the players burn before a fight, or in less important fights the less they have when something big comes up.
This is not to say that you don’t have the opponents using defensive magic of their own. High level opponents especially those with PC classes have a lot of resources and should use them as appropriate.
Unusual environments can also be a good way to burn some resources. Underwater for instance would use up a bunch of spells for Water Breathing and Freedom of Movement. Through in a dispel magic type trap for some fun...
@ Mark Hoover
Do you want your PCs to role play more? Or do you like them just the way they are? As things stand now, at least you know how to motivate them.
If you want PCs to role play more set them role playing challenges. For example if the PCs need an artefact to slay the BBEG make it so that the artefact only works if given freely by the rightful owner. The PCs will have to engage in dialogue with the owner of the artefact in order to convince them to part with it of their own free will. If the PCs try to get away with a simple Diplomacy skill check say something like “Your introduction was flawless and respectful of their culture, you have their undivided attention, what do you want to say?” Basically don’t discount their skills completely but don’t let a single roll solve the PCs challenge either.
Dragonchess Player wrote: One thing that probably should get emphasized with high-level play: Don't make a habit of restricting the high level abilities and magic available to the PCs; instead, make the abilities and magic needed to advance the story. Frequent restrictions ("divinations don't work, no teleportation or summon spells, etc.") tend to cheapen high level play, almost turning it into low level play just with bigger numbers. It also provides a little versimilitude on why the high level PCs are the ones that need to be involved. I cannot agree enough.
I will always support the idea that the rules are a toolbox and you make the sort of game you want with them, but it's a shame to always use a knife when you have a chainsaw available.
Boomerang Nebula wrote: Do you want your PCs to role play more? Or do you like them just the way they are? As things stand now, at least you know how to motivate them. We're 13 levels into a megadungeon campaign that has been in person and monthly in the middle of a pandemic. Play has gone on literally for years. I no longer have any expectations of their style of play matching mine for the level of roleplaying I personally enjoy.
Really I'm looking for tactical advice, like not letting their high level abilities be restricted or modules/APs that I can steal encounters from. I've always been terrible at designing challenging encounters at most levels of play, but I've gotten slightly better at it for the mid levels, from APL 5-10.
I've literally not run encounters for parties over APL15. I've participated in a couple as a player, but never designed anything. I'm trying to focus on that and mining for inspiration on campaign-ending plot points beyond the campaign-ending plot point I'd already planned for the PCs by APL15.
Do I want them to engage with the setting more? Sure, but I can't MAKE them. By the time PCs hit APL3 they began encountering architecture, writing and non-magical artifacts of the ancient wizards who existed when the megadungeon was first created. It was 6 months later, APL6, when the player running the fire wizard spent a Linguistics rank on the language and actually spent specific Downtime to research that ancient culture.
He didn't do it bc his character had a thirst for lore. He did it bc I offered a +2 Circumstance bonus on some Knowledge and Perception checks if he did so. Regardless of the player guide I made up about the caste system I invented, names of the councilors the PC learned about and so on, the player still asks me to explain why certain things he sees in the dungeon are significant.
Bottom line, these players don't find plot points or have internal motivations for their characters, that is left to me as the GM. The only time the PCs do directly engage with the setting is when there is some kind of mechanical benefit for the PCs.
I can't stress enough that there is nothing wrong with this style of play. It's what my players enjoy. It just simply is not MY style of play. If I'm going to add an entirely new ending to my campaign from APL15-APL20, I'd like to prep for it now and try to foreshadow it in some way.
well, they may not need a plot, but as a designing GM I need a story, plot line, and some drama. That's how adventures get made!
If you just need some badass CR15-25 builds, NO PROBLEM.
Most of Paizo material is for lower levels and just picking off the conclusion to an AP seems pointless to me. Scenarios are a enclosed adventure so those are better pickins if you are mining material.
There are a lot of good ideas in the PFS Scenarios and a couple of deadly attempts (about 1/yr).
PF1 Adv Finder Lvl 15
Pathfinder Society Scenario (season 8) #8-25: Unleashing the Untouchable (about freeing elemental lord)
Pathfinder Society Scenario (season 9) #9-25: Betrayal in the Bones (about chasing BBEG, demons..) to 10-09 Rasping Rebirth.
You could level up some adventures;
Bonekeep series (they get easier as they go) classic crawl in a way. BBEG needs level up or swapped out and some gear, better minions, and some lovely toys.
Gloomspires (lovecraftian tie ins) 8-15 is one to 10-98.
Season 6 if you need robots.. lol.
Mark Hoover wrote:
I can't stress enough that there is nothing wrong with this style of play. It's what my players enjoy. It just simply is not MY style of play. If I'm going to add an entirely new ending to my campaign from APL15-APL20, I'd like to prep for it now and try to foreshadow it in some way.
Hmmm… this could be an opportunity to create unique monsters. Or you could borrow ideas from other games to modify existing monsters, for example:
Legendary Actions borrowed from D&D5e, up to 3 times per day the monster can choose to succeed on saving throw they previously failed.
Cosmic Enhancement borrowed from GURPS, remove one or more limitations normally tied to an ability. For example: the red dragon’s breath weapon ignores fire resistance, or the evil wizard’s Mirror Images don’t disappear when struck.
Invoke Consequences borrowed from Fate, a successful attack roll allows the monster to inflict a condition upon the victim like blindness for the rest of the combat with no saving throw.
Another possibility is to move the campaign to somewhere very strange like Leng, the Dead Vault, or the Dimension of Time. That way you can set very challenging environments for your players.
there's always the Homebrew forum... I tend to keep my public contributions in the low CR range as I think they are harder to do than CR7+.
Barkgator CR1
and then there's the Worm that Infests/Inhabits CR15 with their Worm Acolytes {a way to "reward" and reproduce which leads to the Worm that Walks as an intermediate}.
I'll note that morlocks have rather high ability scores for their CR and debilitating Int. Advanced template makes them wayyyy better and mostly solves the low Int. I did an advanced morlock unchRog4 pair, rebalanced the point buy a bit to get Int 12 etc, gave them 2 traits, etc, pretty good. Half PC WBL for CR is appropriate. Scaling up a uncRogue, Barbariaan, bloodrager, shaman to CR 15 and adding in dark creepers... it could work.
I also did an axis built clockwork butler or maintenance construct based off the Clockwork Servant...
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