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As a longtime player, one of the most jarring things to the continuity of a game world in which our campaigns exist is a new edition or a remaster. Even when the changes are good for the game, it shatters continuity of storytelling. Why not make an in-game rationale for why things are changing? Tell me where the drow went, what evolved the dragons, what warped magic! Was there another Earthfall level event? A war of the gods? Maybe it was to gain freedom from a corrupt cabal of Sorcerers by the Sea... just gimme something to work with and and I'm in!
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They have and they haven't, and where they have, it's pretty scattered about in various official blogs, Twitch streams, book publications, and other sources.
Drow have been retconned to have never existed. They were either subterranean lizard people, false reports made by surface dwellers, or evil cabals of cavern elves.
Dragons and many other creatures don't need such changes; as they're still very much a part of the setting. Even though you won't see them printed anymore owlbears still populate the forests of the Inner Sea.
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I think the thing is, no matter what some people are gonna be unhappy.
Some people like yourself want an explanation.
Others want or will be ok with an explanation if it is an interesting enough story.
Others dislike this kind of narrative explanation because It brings so much attention to the changes, or because they dont like the idea of mechanics being an exact 1 for 1 for the world.
Paizo has to decide what is best for their staff and creative team, as well as what they think their audience will like.
If you are playing in a game that's already happen and you are introducing remaster elements, you don't have to introduce or remove anything that conflicts with the world. Drow stat sheets still exist, you can still use them in your game. Dragons havent evolved, any named dragon still exists and isnt nessecarilly being squared off into the new dragons, the only exception might be any named green dragons might be identified as horned dragons because theyve established a connection. But in that case it's not "green dragons became horned dragons," it's always been "this is a horned dragon that is green."
I'm not a biggest fan of this kind of narrative, but if you really want something, you could always take whatever is gonna happen in War of Immortals and make that the excuse/reason. Or maybe the events of stolen fates or something like that.
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They have and they haven't, and where they have, it's pretty scattered about in various official blogs, Twitch streams, book publications, and other sources.
Drow have been retconned to have never existed. They were either subterranean lizard people, false reports made by surface dwellers, or evil cabals of cavern elves.
Dragons and many other creatures don't need such changes; as they're still very much a part of the setting. Even though you won't see them printed anymore owlbears still populate the forests of the Inner Sea.
I said it was underground lizard people all along and everyone just laughed at me.
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I started a Strength of Thousands adventure path last week, and I told my players that they could use the Legacy Pathfinder 2nd Edition rules or the Remastered rules for their character creation. My younger daughter created an anadi divination wizard Ibris, so she used the legacy rules with the wizard divination school. But she had an explanation.
There was clearly a magical revolution recently that changed what people considered the most efficient ways to categorize and teach wizardry. Like with any major break from tradition, some people and groups are slower to adopt the new methods or cling to the old methods as familiar and established. And this is clearly why both pre and post Remaster wizards are in play.
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I'm also thinking that calling out all of the Remaster is a bit of a misnomer. What this thread is talking about is the removal of OGL creatures and mechanics from the setting. Things like Drow, alignment, and Wizard schools.
The Remaster also includes a lot of things like renaming flat-footed to off-guard and changing Spell Level to Spell Rank. If you are using those mechanics terms in-game, that is already a minor mistake on your part. But the fix for that is just as trivial - languages evolve IRL, no reason that they couldn't or shouldn't evolve in-game also.
One Remaster change that affects one of my characters is that Witch suddenly wakes up one morning and now their familiar can do more cool things. But that isn't really all that jarring. Witch familiars already do rather unexpected things. And when they level up it is not uncommon for the Witch to wake up one day and have their familiar able to do something new.
I said it was underground lizard people all along and everyone just laughed at me.They have and they haven't, and where they have, it's pretty scattered about in various official blogs, Twitch streams, book publications, and other sources.
Drow have been retconned to have never existed. They were either subterranean lizard people, false reports made by surface dwellers, or evil cabals of cavern elves.
Dragons and many other creatures don't need such changes; as they're still very much a part of the setting. Even though you won't see them printed anymore owlbears still populate the forests of the Inner Sea.
Well, what do surface iruxi think?
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Well, what do surface iruxi think?I said it was underground lizard people all along and everyone just laughed at me.They have and they haven't, and where they have, it's pretty scattered about in various official blogs, Twitch streams, book publications, and other sources.
Drow have been retconned to have never existed. They were either subterranean lizard people, false reports made by surface dwellers, or evil cabals of cavern elves.
Dragons and many other creatures don't need such changes; as they're still very much a part of the setting. Even though you won't see them printed anymore owlbears still populate the forests of the Inner Sea.
I think the surface iruxi would kindly remind inquiring apefolk that not every reptile is a lizard, and that once upon a time in the world there were many reptilian civilizations and very few mammalian civilizations so an underground reptile empire seems just as plausible as an underground mammal empire
As an Elven Archeologist who has been investigating the presence of underground Lizard people who seek the destruction of the surface world for longer than most of you have been alive, I assure you that never in my much maligned and ridiculed academic career have I insinuated that the Iruxi live underground, nor that they are collectively involved in any schemes or plots to destroy us all. My primary focus has actually been the Xulgath threat to the Starstone Isle, but I believe the Raving Dork that mentioned the underground Lizard people as one potential unreliable narrative about underground threats to the surface could very well have be referring to my unorthodox research, as that research was being done in a Extinction Curse game that he was running.
The possibility existence of not just malignant underground lizard people, but also underground snake people determined to destroy the surface should be cause for alarm for us all.
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From experience, sweeping in-universe rationales for game mechanic changes tend to be extremely awkward and rarely (if ever) satisfying to read or experience. Especially given that often these universes don't tend to work all that hard to remain rules compliant in the first place.
It's also not always practical. Like consider your request re: Drow. If the point of removing Drow is to disentangle official setting material from other licenses and IP, then telling a story about where all the Drow went is literally undermining that.
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From experience, sweeping in-universe rationales for game mechanic changes tend to be extremely awkward and rarely (if ever) satisfying to read or experience. Especially given that often these universes don't tend to work all that hard to remain rules compliant in the first place.
It's also not always practical. Like consider your request re: Drow. If the point of removing Drow is to disentangle official setting material from other licenses and IP, then telling a story about where all the Drow went is literally undermining that.
I dunno- I think an attempt at explaining the sudden changes is more satisfying than none at all. I do get your second point though. IP issues like drow could be alluded to and replaced by other creatures, I like the false report idea. I'd like to see a lot more background about these "cavern elves" that appeared in PF2, serpent men and svartalfar could explain the rest. I wanna know about the dragons and magic- as creatures of magic, a disturbance in the fabric of reality would warp them as well... I WANT to like it, just gimme something more than "see the errata and GM Core" Even ther titles feel soulless.
Evil God caused Golarion gods to have alter the fabric of the universe to prevent this evil god from destroying the world?
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From experience, sweeping in-universe rationales for game mechanic changes tend to be extremely awkward and rarely (if ever) satisfying to read or experience. Especially given that often these universes don't tend to work all that hard to remain rules compliant in the first place.
It's also not always practical. Like consider your request re: Drow. If the point of removing Drow is to disentangle official setting material from other licenses and IP, then telling a story about where all the Drow went is literally undermining that.
I dunno- I think an attempt at explaining the sudden changes is more satisfying than none at all. I do get your second point though. IP issues like drow could be alluded to and replaced by other creatures, I like the false report idea. I'd l8ke to see a lot more about these cavern elves that appeared in PF2, serpent men and svartalfar could explain the rest. I wanna know about the dragons and magic- as creatures of magic, a disturbance in the fabric of reality would warp them as well... gimme something more than "see the errata and GM Core" Even therewith titles are soulless.
The dragons are not warped. We will just focus on ones that have not been in the spotlight before.
Just like everyone took Magi, Oracles and Witches in the setting in stride without batting an eye that we never knew they existed before.
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Evil God caused Golarion gods to have alter the fabric of the universe to prevent this evil god from destroying the world?
Close enough to the real world explanation.
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The dragons are not warped. We will just focus on ones that have not been in the spotlight before.Just like everyone took Magi, Oracles and Witches in the setting in stride without batting an eye that we never knew they existed before.
I say "warped" as in they are different than they have been, and spells work differently than they have. This suggests a specific magical anomaly that could at least be alluded to and I could deal.
Also, I don't take these things in stride very well- I waited anxiously for the release of chara ter options to support my preexisting characters is PF2 and STILL await several options that have yet to return (ninja, samurai, bloodmage maybe?). Hard to explain why these characters disappear for a while while the book is at the printer, lol
I think the thing is, no matter what some people are gonna be unhappy.
Some people like yourself want an explanation.
Others want or will be ok with an explanation if it is an interesting enough story.
Others dislike this kind of narrative explanation because It brings so much attention to the changes, or because they dont like the idea of mechanics being an exact 1 for 1 for the world.
Paizo has to decide what is best for their staff and creative team, as well as what they think their audience will like.
If you are playing in a game that's already happen and you are introducing remaster elements, you don't have to introduce or remove anything that conflicts with the world. Drow stat sheets still exist, you can still use them in your game. Dragons havent evolved, any named dragon still exists and isnt nessecarilly being squared off into the new dragons, the only exception might be any named green dragons might be identified as horned dragons because theyve established a connection. But in that case it's not "green dragons became horned dragons," it's always been "this is a horned dragon that is green."
I'm not a biggest fan of this kind of narrative, but if you really want something, you could always take whatever is gonna happen in War of Immortals and make that the excuse/reason. Or maybe the events of stolen fates or something like that.
Unfortunately it is more complicated than just like or not liking it.
With the change of license it becomes a copyright violation to use OGL content in books with ORC. So the mere fact of referring to drows in new books opens brexes for possible processes against Paizo, so to avoid problems they simply did a retcon as if the content created by Paizo simply had never existed.
Golarion setting post-remaster is practically an alternative multiverse where many previous events have been without explanation or were made by different creatures.
But for your own tables. Where you aren't publishing anything you can use the story as you like, adapting or adjusting the events or simply cross the OGL and ORC content without problems.
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Even ther titles feel soulless.
I agree with you there.
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The dragons are not warped. We will just focus on ones that have not been in the spotlight before.Just like everyone took Magi, Oracles and Witches in the setting in stride without batting an eye that we never knew they existed before.
I say "warped" as in they are different than they have been, and spells work differently than they have. This suggests a specific magical anomaly that could at least be alluded to and I could deal.
Also, I don't take these things in stride very well- I waited anxiously for the release of chara ter options to support my preexisting characters is PF2 and STILL await several options that have yet to return (ninja, samurai, bloodmage maybe?). Hard to explain why these characters disappear for a while while the book is at the printer, lol
TBT I could see this going from PF1 to PF2 as the 2 games work pretty differently.
I feel going from PF2 to Remaster is a very small difference compared to that. It is more akin IMO to an errata. Yes, what we thought was true is not anymore. Yet it did not stop people from adapting to errata without having to change the whole setting.
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I've never really seen smoothing differences between editions over as necessary and in the case of the Remaster, it feels even less so. All of the changes to lore are fairly niche and can be wiped away with pretty much a single sentence.
Where did the drow go? Turns out letting a bunch of wickedly powerful and xenophobic elves run around unmonitored had some consequences.
Why are the types of dragon changing? Draconic taxonomy has already been shifting for decades and scale color is far less important to classification than other physiological similarities.
Alignment? Mortals stopped projecting flawed systems of ethics onto the multiverse and supernatural forces stopped molding themselves to it.
Magical schools? Nex has been pioneering new systems of magical organization for centuries and they've finally started being adopted outside Nex.
Here's the thing though, I fully expect that by bringing it up in any published material, Paizo would be preserving some aspect of what they were trying to get rid of for legal reasons and providing WotC a foothold for legal action.
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The thing is, with a few exceptions the remaster is intended to be practically invisible in-universe. Alignment changed but mortals are still sent to the plane that aligns with their philosophy or their deity, whichever. For the few people who could detect alignments, such magic didn't apply to the vast majority if the populace. Meanwhile, the classic schools of magic have no mechanical impact anymore, but aside from wizards almost nobody would even have noticed that the Thassilonian system of categorizing magic isn't anything more than one way to look at it.
The rules are merely an expression of what exists in the game world, and no editions rules have ever been a perfect objective 1:1 description of the physical reality if the game. Consider that when two people cast a classic like Fireball in the setting, it probably contains subtle differences from one another, or even from one casting to the next.
The major exception being the drow, but more than enough words have been shed on the unfortunate necessity of that topic.
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One Remaster change that affects one of my characters is that Witch suddenly wakes up one morning and now their familiar can do more cool things. But that isn't really all that jarring. Witch familiars already do rather unexpected things. And when they level up it is not uncommon for the Witch to wake up one day and have they're familiar able to do something new.
My Witch will just assume that her familiar was hiding her extra abilities, because, well, her familiar is a cat.
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There don't need to be any in-game changes. If you had Drow as a key part of your ongoing narrative, you have all the rules you need to keep using them. You can certainly use "there were drow, we met them, but now there aren't any" as a prompt for some kind of story, but you don't have to. Like if Paizo said "we're never going to set another story in Galt" it's not like Galt doesn't exist anymore and you can't set a story there.
In terms of "you character can/can't do stuff" that wasn't the case previously, that's no different from any other kind of errata. In your day 1 CRB alchemists weren't proficient with medium armor, then they were because of an errata.
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Unfortunately it is more complicated than just like or not liking it.With the change of license it becomes a copyright violation to use OGL content in books with ORC. So the mere fact of referring to drows in new books opens brexes for possible processes against Paizo, so to avoid problems they simply did a retcon as if the content created by Paizo simply had never existed.
Golarion setting post-remaster is practically an alternative multiverse where many previous events have been without explanation or were made by different creatures.
But for your own tables. Where you aren't publishing anything you...
I think I might not have been clear, or maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am well aware of the reasons why drows can't be used. Drows were mentioned so I was merely saying, like you are that at your own tables you can still include them because there are official pre remaster, pre orc stats for drow enemies. I personally do not care for "in setting explanations," I was explaining why thing don't need to be retconned with some in universe event, especially if it is a home game where the dm and players choose what things to use. And then I provided some optional in universe things someone can choose to use if they really must do so.
There are some specific spells that do, a little bit. Specifically things like the 1 Action version of Heal now having a spoken incantation, like all spells without the Subtle trait, when the verbal component was only on the 2 and 3 action versions before.
I don’t see any need for an in universe explanation of minor mechanics shifts like that, but there are a few you could notice if, for example, you've cast that spell while needing to hold your breath before.
There are some specific spells that do, a little bit. Specifically things like the 1 Action version of Heal now having a spoken incantation, like all spells without the Subtle trait, when the verbal component was only on the 2 and 3 action versions before.
I don’t see any need for an in universe explanation of minor mechanics shifts like that, but there are a few you could notice if, for example, you've cast that spell while needing to hold your breath before.
Yeah, if you're going to get into that level of minutia, you're basically calling for a Crisis on Infinite Earths every time errata is released.
Meanwhile, the spells which changed more significantly were largely replacements, but the old spells are still options mechanically and can still exist narratively. Ex: You don't need to explain why black tentacles became slither because you can just use either spell. Slither is basically just a newly discovered spell.
The most jarring "same spell works different now" that comes to mind would be a witch in an undead party using Life Boost as a focus point healing option. The Vitality trait being added to that is a big, unpleasant jolt in the specific case.
I say "warped" as in they are different than they have been, and spells work differently than they have. This suggests a specific magical anomaly that could at least be alluded to and I could deal.Ok. In which way do spells work differently?
(Because they don't. At all. Especially in-setting as magic never was completely solved science. Even arcane.)
Chill Touch-->Void Warp is now ranged and has no effect on undead
Ray of Enfeeblement--->Enfeeble no longer requires a spell attack roll (relevant for the Magus' Spellstrike)...and other spells with boosted damage or effects that may outstrip legacy spells, like Acid Spash--->Caustic Blast, again no spell attack and now is an AoE instead of just splash damage.
These are the things I notice immediately as they affect my necromagus build, now possibly imperiled if my GM goes to Remastered.
Spells definitely work differently.
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These are the things I notice immediately as they affect my necromagus build, now possibly imperiled if my GM goes to Remastered.
And by "goes to Remastered" that apparently means that anything that isn't republished in Player Core or GM Core is no longer available.
That isn't the intent of the Remaster. Player Core could not possibly be a compendium of everything that was published for Pathfinder2e.
Saying that it is would involve removing everything from Guns and Gears, Secrets of Magic, and Dark Archive at the very least. I'm not entirely sure what a Necromagus is, but if it is built on the Magus class, losing Secrets of Magic would kill the build more than just renaming a few spells would.
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So if those spells haven't been 'removed' in the Remaster, what exactly is the in-game difference between the drop of Player Core and the drop of Secrets of Magic? Both added spells to the game.
And by "goes to Remastered" that apparently means that anything that isn't republished in Player Core or GM Core is no longer available.That isn't the intent of the Remaster. Player Core could not possibly be a compendium of everything that was published for Pathfinder2e.
Saying that it is would involve removing everything from Guns and Gears, Secrets of Magic, and Dark Archive at the very least. I'm not entirely sure what a Necromagus is, but if it is built on the Magus class, losing Secrets of Magic would kill the build more than just renaming a few spells would.
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So if those spells haven't been 'removed' in the Remaster, what exactly is the in-game difference between the drop of Player Core and the drop of Secrets of Magic? Both added spells to the game.
Spells that automatically are redirected to a new version on apps we use to run campaigns make it difficult to utilize legacy content, suggesting these are meant to replace said content.i. my examples above, the changes are more than skin-deep. Some may be better, sure, but it has already thrown off some builds and the Remaster preference of the apps and sites makes using legacy content more complicated. Perhaps this will change.
I don't like when they change my thing, it's WotC's fault my thing is different, HATE THIS WITH ME! [/rant]
Just kidding. Thanks all for entertaining my musings, honestly this has helped me start to see things differently. Being 45 with rampant ADHD doesn't help when the sands I stand on shift suddenly, but these forums do. Thanks all.
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Chill Touch-->Void Warp is now ranged and has no effect on undead
Ray of Enfeeblement--->Enfeeble no longer requires a spell attack roll (relevant for the Magus' Spellstrike)
...and other spells with boosted damage or effects that may outstrip legacy spells, like Acid Spash--->Caustic Blast, again no spell attack and now is an AoE instead of just splash damage.
These are the things I notice immediately as they affect my necromagus build, now possibly imperiled if my GM goes to Remastered.
Spells definitely work differently.Finoan is correct. Nothing is changed.
But you know what's funny? Even if it had really changed exactly as you've wrote? You ask about changes in fiction, in-universe. Everything you give as an example, even if true, changes absolutely nothing at all in-universe. Fiction hasn't changed.
Fiction and story don't know what 'spell attack roll' is.
Fiction and story can't distinguish between AoE and splash damage.
Fiction and story don't care if it were 'negative' or 'void' damage when it's the same thing, and especially if you use one version. Or if using both they can be synonyms. Or different people in-universe could use different words.
Fiction and story mostly don't care about spells' names either: basically any caster already can name their spells as they like.
So no, 'spells' don't work differently at all.
Synonyms, fine. Characters are unaware of game mechanics, yes. However, spell attack is a prerequisite for the Magus Spellstrike feature without a specific feat, and there are noted differences in how some spells affect undead. That is in fact different.
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I think generally best practices for implementing errata is to hold off implementing it in a specific game if it would dramatically impact a specific character.
Like all your pre-remaster PCs just work exactly like they used to. If you want to update your PC, since like the cleric is better now, then that's on the player to figure out.
However, spell attack is a prerequisite for the Magus Spellstrike feature without a specific feat, and there are noted differences in how some spells affect undead. That is in fact different.
Yes. That is different. And why those could be considered to still be different spells.
If I was the GM for a Magus player that was making use of Chill Touch, I would let them continue using it. I would likely update the spell so that it does 2d4 damage at Rank 1 instead of 1d4+casting attribute though.
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Why must everything have a ingame explanation?
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Synonyms, fine. Characters are unaware of game mechanics, yes. However, spell attack is a prerequisite for the Magus Spellstrike feature without a specific feat, and there are noted differences in how some spells affect undead. That is in fact different.Chill Touch-->Void Warp is now ranged and has no effect on undead
Ray of Enfeeblement--->Enfeeble no longer requires a spell attack roll (relevant for the Magus' Spellstrike)
...and other spells with boosted damage or effects that may outstrip legacy spells, like Acid Spash--->Caustic Blast, again no spell attack and now is an AoE instead of just splash damage.
These are the things I notice immediately as they affect my necromagus build, now possibly imperiled if my GM goes to Remastered.
Spells definitely work differently.Finoan is correct. Nothing is changed.
But you know what's funny? Even if it had really changed exactly as you've wrote? You ask about changes in fiction, in-universe. Everything you give as an example, even if true, changes absolutely nothing at all in-universe. Fiction hasn't changed.
Fiction and story don't know what 'spell attack roll' is.
Fiction and story can't distinguish between AoE and splash damage.
Fiction and story don't care if it were 'negative' or 'void' damage when it's the same thing, and especially if you use one version. Or if using both they can be synonyms. Or different people in-universe could use different words.
Fiction and story mostly don't care about spells' names either: basically any caster already can name their spells as they like.
So no, 'spells' don't work differently at all.
What is different is how it is (IMO could be better) implemented on the tools you use.
I get that it can be a real burden.
But really, Paizo and the PFS org team did their utmost IMO to help the transition to Remaster be as painless as possible.
I think your best hope now is to tell the owners of the tools you use of the problems you have so that they improve their products to give all their users (including you) a better and more seamless post-Remaster experience.
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It's just Xanderghul who changed all of reality in order to retroactively survive his own death (no one other than him is aware that anything changed). Changing the schools of magic was the most important thing to ensure his fate got altered significantly, the rest was all just acceptable side effects.
Want proof? Look at the Remaster GM Core. Who is on the cover? Xanderghul.
I rest my case.
Chill Touch-->Void Warp is now ranged and has no effect on undead
Ray of Enfeeblement--->Enfeeble no longer requires a spell attack roll (relevant for the Magus' Spellstrike)...and other spells with boosted damage or effects that may outstrip legacy spells, like Acid Spash--->Caustic Blast, again no spell attack and now is an AoE instead of just splash damage.
These are the things I notice immediately as they affect my necromagus build, now possibly imperiled if my GM goes to Remastered.
Spells definitely work differently.
Chill Touch against Undead is quite bad, so it's not like it changes a lot of things as you should not really use it anyway.
As for the spells that lost their spell attack roll, you can grab Expansive Spellstrike and you'll still be able to use them (and many more) with your Spellstrikes. It's a simple change on your build if you really want to keep the exact same functionning.
Or: You can combine a normal strike with the spell. It's very close to a Spellstrike + recharge both mecanically and visualy.
And by "goes to Remastered" that apparently means that anything that isn't republished in Player Core or GM Core is no longer available.That isn't the intent of the Remaster. Player Core could not possibly be a compendium of everything that was published for Pathfinder2e.
Saying that it is would involve removing everything from Guns and Gears, Secrets of Magic, and Dark Archive at the very least. I'm not entirely sure what a Necromagus is, but if it is built on the Magus class, losing Secrets of Magic would kill the build more than just renaming a few spells would.
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So if those spells haven't been 'removed' in the Remaster, what exactly is the in-game difference between the drop of Player Core and the drop of Secrets of Magic? Both added spells to the game.
Spells that automatically are redirected to a new version on apps we use to run campaigns make it difficult to utilize legacy content, suggesting these are meant to replace said content.i. my examples above, the changes are more than skin-deep. Some may be better, sure, but it has already thrown off some builds and the Remaster preference of the apps and sites makes using legacy content more complicated. Perhaps this will change.
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Those apps are not indicative of in-universe changes, though. If your Magus wants to utilize Ray of Enfeeblement, they still can. They officially can in PFS, so any ruling otherwise is a house rule. Meanwhile, the Magus's bard friend can prepare Enfeeble. Both spells can coexist. The apps just make the distinction for legacy content because those options are generally redundant and weaker, but in the few cases where it isn't (like a Magus who needs more spell strike options) the legacy content is legal, usable, and still exists in universe.
I'm sorry that it is more confusing to you. As a fellow recently diagnosed with ADHD, my heart goes out to you. But I think you're making it harder on yourself than it needs to be. I've personally found the Player Core playlist by itself much better to browse with it's more manageable size and lower dud spell ratio, but I still dip into the old stuff as needed.
Creative Director
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We try not to do in-game explanations for standard errata or full edition changes (with the Remaster living between those two extremes, but being far closer to errata than an edition change), because the number of times that a game goes through those changes is so frequent that if we had to explain them in-setting every time, it would make the setting feel ridiculously impermanent and chaotic. Instead, our goal is to make sure that whatever we do to change the rules, that they work to keep the stories we want to tell the same, thematically, going forward.
Otherwise we might as well just start over from scratch and build an entire new campaign setting each time, and that's not feasible.
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We try not to do in-game explanations for standard errata or full edition changes (with the Remaster living between those two extremes, but being far closer to errata than an edition change), because the number of times that a game goes through those changes is so frequent that if we had to explain them in-setting every time, it would make the setting feel ridiculously impermanent and chaotic. Instead, our goal is to make sure that whatever we do to change the rules, that they work to keep the stories we want to tell the same, thematically, going forward.
Otherwise we might as well just start over from scratch and build an entire new campaign setting each time, and that's not feasible.
I get that, and I appreciate what Pauzo is and the circumstances that have come about due to ... everything. But things do feel impermanent and chaotic when things keep changing. Little tweaks and rules are one thing, but this is fairly huge. Rulewise, maybe not so much as an edition, but lorewise it's a reboot in some ways. Feels like a missed opportunity to tell more story and document and acknowledge the things that are going away for those who care about such things
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We try not to do in-game explanations for standard errata or full edition changes (with the Remaster living between those two extremes, but being far closer to errata than an edition change), because the number of times that a game goes through those changes is so frequent that if we had to explain them in-setting every time, it would make the setting feel ridiculously impermanent and chaotic.
Also known as the Forgotten Realms.
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Creative Director
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I get that, and I appreciate what Pauzo is and the circumstances that have come about due to ... everything. But things do feel impermanent and chaotic when things keep changing. Little tweaks and rules are one thing, but this is fairly huge. Rulewise, maybe not so much as an edition, but lorewise it's a reboot in some ways. Feels like a missed opportunity to tell more story and document and acknowledge the things that are going away for those who care about such thingsWe try not to do in-game explanations for standard errata or full edition changes (with the Remaster living between those two extremes, but being far closer to errata than an edition change), because the number of times that a game goes through those changes is so frequent that if we had to explain them in-setting every time, it would make the setting feel ridiculously impermanent and chaotic. Instead, our goal is to make sure that whatever we do to change the rules, that they work to keep the stories we want to tell the same, thematically, going forward.
Otherwise we might as well just start over from scratch and build an entire new campaign setting each time, and that's not feasible.
Getting the remastered rules out as fast as we did was already a tricky enough thing. Doing the same sort of deep dive into the lore would have required many more books added to the schedule which would have even further pushed things out, AND would have created the perception that all of our previous lore content was out of date, which is not good. Rules change every edition and (to a lesser extent with every errata), but the lore needs to stay as stable as possible.
It's not as much a missed opportunity as a deliberate choice aimed at self-preservation, personal preference, time management, and a desire to avoid the perception that we were trying to cash-grab or milk money out of our loyal customers.
Remember, the rules are free online. Customers don't HAVE to buy the rules from us, although we very much appreciate when they do.
The lore is NOT free online to the extent that the rules are, so the more changes we do to the lore means that folks HAVE to spend money on our stuff just to stay "caught up." That's not how we roll at Paizo, though.
I did attempt to ask this question of where the lore is at after remaster of the community on the lost omens forum but I either didn't ask it in the right way or just am not the right person to ask it.
Edit with humor:
My renown was too low so the difficulty of the ask was higher than normal and I failed my diplomacy check. i really should have invested in Hobnobber and Shameless Request
Getting the remastered rules out as fast as we did was already a tricky enough thing. Doing the same sort of deep dive into the lore would have required many more books added to the schedule which would have even further pushed things out, AND would have created the perception that all of our previous lore content was out of date, which is not good. Rules change every edition and (to a lesser extent with every errata), but the lore needs to stay as stable as possible.It's not as much a missed opportunity as a deliberate choice aimed at self-preservation, personal preference, time management, and a desire to avoid the perception that we were trying to cash-grab or milk money out of our loyal customers.
Remember, the rules are free online. Customers don't HAVE to buy the...
Thanks for adding rhe clarity and insight from the design side- the side we only peek at! As another refugee from D&D, a game I loved for years, and love Golarion and hate to see it change. I DO like a lot of the new stuff, just will take getting used to. Will there be a new thing to replace the drow? A Golarion thing?
Fun Fact: in the 90s I didn't allow drow in my home games because they were a Forgotten Realms and everyone was obsessed with them, lol
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Everything that was attributed to the Drow was actually the Sekmin (serpentfolk) - the person who first wrote about the Drow in Golarion made them up to mask her perception of the greater threat posed by the sekmins.
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Thanks for adding rhe clarity and insight from the design side- the side we only peek at! As another refugee from D&D, a game I loved for years, and love Golarion and hate to see it change. I DO like a lot of the new stuff, just will take getting used to. Will there be a new thing to replace the drow? A Golarion thing?
Fun Fact: in the 90s I didn't allow drow in my home games because they were a Forgotten Realms and everyone was obsessed with them, lol
It's been hinted at quite a few times that the drow mythology on Golarion was created as a 'cover' for ancient civilizations allegedly destroyed by the Azlanti and Cyclopean empires.
One of the more reliable sources about Darklands sorts of things was also doing his level best to suppress knowledge of some of the dangers in an effort to secure against them/prevent those dangers from being aware they'd been 'found out'.
He even quit his job in furious protest over it when his bosses decided to go to press anyways.
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Evil God caused Golarion gods to have alter the fabric of the universe to prevent this evil god from destroying the world?
So I actually had this come up the other day. My players found an Everlight Crystal (remastered Everburning Torch), and since they found it on an undead noble he wanted to try and recall knowledge with Legal Lore (maybe the dead guy was a judge or barrister?)
Screw it, roll a dice, this might be funny...
He crit, so I improvised an explanation like "you recognize this object is one of many magically transmuted by the gods in recent history. A war between creator gods of this world and another occurred, and to protect this world from divine contracts and laws they used their powers to slightly alter the fundamentals of Golarion."
Now he wants to use Legal Lore on any magic items he finds.