Probably going to get moved to the rules forum as its a rules question.
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
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A cleave, regardless of the action, isn't a single attack. I don't see how you'd be able to use cleave with overhand chop.
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Cleave is its own kind of standard action. It isn't an attack action or part of a charge.
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
The Two-Handed Fighter's Overhand Chop (scroll down the page) requires the attack action or part of a charge.
As BNW pointed out, this is probably more appropriate in the Rules Questions forum.
It's not ambiguous at all. The two do not work together. BNW and harmony covered why.
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As someone who has partaken in many rules discussions, I can understand the ambiguity from a new player's perspective (though this specific confusion usually revolves around Vital Strike, not Cleave).
The nuanced differences between making an attack as a standard action, and using a standard action to make a single attack, can be frustrating for newer players to get a grip on.
Samaranthae, I wouldn't look at the other player as "checking up on you". They probably never noticed exactly how you were calculating your damage until a certain point, and then realized "oh, it doesn't work that way".
I also don't think you need to retire your character early. It sounds perfectly functional. Are there other reasons why you were considering putting it to the side?
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I hate to say it, but you probably need to retrain your archetype or change your concept. I made the same error a few years ago, but ended up changing focus to the dwarven boulder helmet feat chain. The two handed archetype looks cool, but the way it's written makes it not work with many combat feats unless they are pure damage (i.e., power attack) or are passive (like dodge).
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It is not that bad to be able to do both overhand chop and cleave.
Fighting one guy overhand chop, more than one cleave.
^ this, also you should look at the dorn dergar and associated feats (darting viper, chain-flail master) since you're a two handing/cleaving dwarf
note that chain-flail master lets you use dorn dergars that are one size larger than you as a two handed weapon
EDIT: also if you're wanting to use dwarven cleave feats and a reach weapon in melee you might want to get the Phalanx Formation feat
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What book is Chain-Flail Master out of? That sounds awesome!
It's real name is Dorn-Dergar Master and it's in Dwarves of Golarion.
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Ah. I knew about that feat. Darn. Got all excited about wielding a larger Dorn-Dergar.
Well, it does allow that technically. There is no limit in the feat that requires the Dorn-Dergar to be appropriately sized, so you can wield a large Dorn-Dergar in two hands as any other large one handed weapon. It's not really worth the -2 to hit though unless you are using size stacking shenanigans.
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I don't think the feat lets you do that. Just like a medium-sized PC can't wield a Large-sized Earthbreaker using Thunder and Fang, the feat only grants what it states it grants: the ability to use the weapon one-handed (not an inappropriately-sized version two-handed). Likewise I wouldn't think it'd allow a small-sized Dorn-Dergar to be wielded as a light weapon.
The -2 to-hit just makes it all the more worse to even attempt dealing with table variation.
A medium PC can wield a Large sized earthbreaker using Thunder and Fang.
If the weapon is one-handed for you then a large one can be wielded at a -2 as a two-handed weapon.
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A medium PC can wield a Large sized earthbreaker using Thunder and Fang.
If the weapon is one-handed for you then a large one can be wielded at a -2 as a two-handed weapon.
Well that's one interpretation; but a very permissive one. The reasoning is following the same line as EWP(Bastard Sword) allows a correctly sized Bastard Sword to be wielded one handed and so a 1-step oversized Bastard Sword can be wielded two handed.
However the Bastard Sword is a one handed weapon, whilst the Earthbreaker is a 2 handed weapon and so an oversized Earthbreaker becomes a 3-handed weapon and cannot be wielded at all.
Relevant FAQs
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon? A: One Handed
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty? A: No
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However the Bastard Sword is a one handed weapon, whilst the Earthbreaker is a 2 handed weapon and so an oversized Earthbreaker becomes a 3-handed weapon and cannot be wielded at all.
Titan Fighter archetype (Fighter, Giant Slayer's handbook) can wield one-step oversized two handed weapons in two hands.
So, the (medium) Titan Fighter can wield a large Earthbreaker.
You are otherwise correct.
However the Bastard Sword is a one handed weapon, whilst the Earthbreaker is a 2 handed weapon and so an oversized Earthbreaker becomes a 3-handed weapon and cannot be wielded at all.
Titan Fighter archetype (Fighter, Giant Slayer's handbook) can wield one-step oversized two handed weapons in two hands.
So, the (medium) Titan Fighter can wield a large Earthbreaker.
You are otherwise correct.
There's nearly always a specific exception to a general rule, and thank you for pointing that one out. It does however beg another question: Can a Titan Fighter using Thunder and Fang wield an oversized Earthbreaker in one hand?
EDIT: My view is no, because it is an unintended overlapping of different specific exceptions and falls into the category of powergaming cheese. But by RAW, I can't see why it would not be allowed.
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However the Bastard Sword is a one handed weapon, whilst the Earthbreaker is a 2 handed weapon and so an oversized Earthbreaker becomes a 3-handed weapon and cannot be wielded at all.
Titan Fighter archetype (Fighter, Giant Slayer's handbook) can wield one-step oversized two handed weapons in two hands.
So, the (medium) Titan Fighter can wield a large Earthbreaker.
You are otherwise correct.
There's nearly always a specific exception to a general rule, and thank you for pointing that one out. It does however beg another question: Can a Titan Fighter using Thunder and Fang wield an oversized Earthbreaker in one hand?
EDIT: My view is no, because it is an unintended overlapping of different specific exceptions and falls into the category of powergaming cheese. But by RAW, I can't see why it would not be allowed.
Titan Fighter is specific to oversized (normally) two-handed weapons being wielded in two hands. Even there, it can only be a single step oversized. Large great swords and such.
So you can't use twice oversized one-handed weapons with the titan fighter. I also don't think the bastard sword qualifies for the titan fighter, as it's a one-handed weapon.
The class is mostly incompatible with the Titan Mauler archetype. There are a few class abilities that would be useful for both, as both kit the character against larger opponents, but the ability to wield two-handed weapons in one hand is mutually exclusive to the ability to wield large two handed weapons as two handed weapons.
Not sure about the thunder and fang, as I'm uncertain where that one is from.
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Though for biggest weapons, the best I've seen is the Shillelagh spell + a Large (Oak) Club.
Although the large club doesn't enlarge further with the spell, it's still treated as a two sizes larger Large club (Functionally a Gargantuan Club) which does 3d6 damage (+1 enhancement bonus).
It's still -2 on the attack for being oversized and requires two hands for a oversized one-handed weapon.
The titan Fighter's Large two-handed weapon will only deal 2d8 (2d6 or 1d12, both advance to 2d8). 2d8 is one step below the 3d6 of shillelagh.
Though, realistically, a class with strength increase (like barbarians in rage) will likely do more damage with normal sized two-handed weapons, just because of their sheer strength.
Not sure about the thunder and fang, as I'm uncertain where that one is from.
Thunder and Fang (Combat)
You have mastered the ancient Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A medium PC can wield a Large sized earthbreaker using Thunder and Fang.
If the weapon is one-handed for you then a large one can be wielded at a -2 as a two-handed weapon.
Threads have been locked for making that assertion, as there are a large number of people on the "yes" and "no" camp of that statement with very vocal opinions.
The summary is that it is subject to table variance whether or not Thunder and Fang lets you use a earthbreaker in one hand for any purpose other than wielding a klar in the off-hand.
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Regardless of Thunder and Fang, Dorn-Dergar Master explicitly allows you to "use a dorn-dergar as a one-handed weapon". It does not make any mention of off-hand, nor does it specify the dorn-dergar must be appropriately sized for you. It doesn't even mention the word "wield".
If you have the feat, the dorn-dergar is a one-handed weapon. And an oversize one-handed weapon can be wielded in two hands. That is the RAW.
Of course, any GM is free to rule otherwise, and you should absolutely expect table variation in PFS.
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Not sure about the thunder and fang, as I'm uncertain where that one is from.Thunder and Fang (Combat)
You have mastered the ancient Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
Thanks.
Okay, so titan fighter doesn't benefit from this one, as the class is built around an Oversized two-handed weapon being wielded in two hands. By reducing the hands required, you'd eliminate the benefit the titan fighter presents.
A Titan Mauler could use the Earthbreaker in one hand, though it would have to be a normal sized earthbreaker.
Though, the easiest way to accomplish the Klar+Earthbreaker would be an undersized Earthbreaker, so you'd have two one-handed weapons. That Thunder and Fang feat is much better, but it requires 3 other feats, so at level 1 you'd probably go with the undersized earthbreaker.
That Thunder and Fang feat is very similar to that Thunderstriker fighter archetype, which allows a two-handed weapon to be paired with a buckler, and allows the buckler to shield bash.
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Thunder and Fang allows the use of the weapon as discribed in the first sentence (You have mastered the ancient Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar)
It is still a two handed weapon, however, and a large one can not be wielded with this feat alone, nor can a character double wield the suckers.
This has been gone over in a thread that was eventually locked.
To wield a oversized Two Handed weapon the ability/feat needs to allow for the exception to the normal rule. Two abilities do this, Thunder and Fang is not one of them.
If I sound harsh, it is because of the ire I had received in the other thread about this and the overall want for a single period to change the entire intent of this Feat.
Would it read that differently if it was a comma instead?
The main reason the Feat was changed from one source to another (to the phrasing of "Used as a One Handed weapon") was to prevent TWF with the Earth breaker and klar and still getting 1.5 str mod damage when doing so.
I don't think the feat lets you do that. Just like a medium-sized PC can't wield a Large-sized Earthbreaker using Thunder and Fang, the feat only grants what it states it grants: the ability to use the weapon one-handed (not an inappropriately-sized version two-handed). Likewise I wouldn't think it'd allow a small-sized Dorn-Dergar to be wielded as a light weapon.
The -2 to-hit just makes it all the more worse to even attempt dealing with table variation.
comparing it to thunder and fang is kind of misleading since thunder and fang throws an additional requirement into the mix (using a klar).
You can use a dorn dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action.
this feat makes dorn dergars one handed weapons for the pc that has the feat. it does not mean that dorn dergars are still 2 handed weapons, it means they are now actually one handed weapons.
the reason im trying to emphasize this is that if they are still 2 handed weapons you will be applying 1.5 str to them, which is not the intention as far as i can tell.
if they are one handed weapons in one aspect then they are one handed weapons in all aspects, including the rules for using inappropriately sized one handed weapons. the feat does not pick out specific pieces of the one handed weapon rules, its switches the weapon from one rule to the other.
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You can use a dorn dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action.this feat makes dorn dergars one handed weapons for the pc that has the feat. it does not mean that dorn dergars are still 2 handed weapons, it means they are now actually one handed weapons.
the reason im trying to emphasize this is that if they are still 2 handed weapons you will be applying 1.5 str to them, which is not the intention as far as i can tell.
if they are one handed weapons in one aspect then they are one handed weapons in all aspects, including the rules for using inappropriately sized one handed weapons. the feat does not pick out specific pieces of the one handed weapon rules, its switches the weapon from one rule to the other.
Pretty sure you are confusing concepts here. Dorn Dergar (DD) doesn't become a one-handed weapon, the feat allows you to wield it as one.
This distinction does matter, as you are still able to use the DD as a two handed weapon even with the feat.
As per the FAQ, however you're wielding a weapon determines what kind it is. So if you wield a greatsword one-handed it's a one-handed weapon now for all things like power attack.
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But that doesn't allow the weapon itself to change.
It is still a Two Handed Weapon no matter how the character Wields it. It does nothing for the scale that inappropriately sized weapons use.
It does, however, use the effects for One Handed use, as the character wields it as such. This includes Power Attack, 1.0 str mod damage and so on, it just doesn't allow the wielding of two of them (Two Handed Weapons) or an oversized one (Medium character wielding a large Two Handed Weapon). This is the same for Thunder and Fang and other feats that do this particular phrase.
The scale does not change, the weapon doesn't change, only how the character interacts with the weapon changes. This is why the character is only getting One Handed scaling for feats, Str mod, and so on instead of being able to one hand the weapon and still get the higher scaling.
That is the difference.
Yes, since you're wielding them as one-handed weapons, and they are being treated as one handed weapons, you can 2wf with them. Because for the character it's a large one handed weapon so they can wield it as an inappropriate sized weapon.
You can use a dorn dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action.this feat makes dorn dergars one handed weapons for the pc that has the feat. it does not mean that dorn dergars are still 2 handed weapons, it means they are now actually one handed weapons.
the reason im trying to emphasize this is that if they are still 2 handed weapons you will be applying 1.5 str to them, which is not the intention as far as i can tell.
if they are one handed weapons in one aspect then they are one handed weapons in all aspects, including the rules for using inappropriately sized one handed weapons. the feat does not pick out specific pieces of the one handed weapon rules, its switches the weapon from one rule to the other.
Pretty sure you are confusing concepts here. Dorn Dergar (DD) doesn't become a one-handed weapon, the feat allows you to wield it as one.
This distinction does matter, as you are still able to use the DD as a two handed weapon even with the feat.
The Dorn Dergar becomes a one handed weapon for pc's that have this feat, it is no longer a two-handed weapon.
here is the one-handed weapon rule
A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half his Strength modifier if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon.
As you can see here the ability to use the dorn dergar in two hands even if you have the dorn dergar master feat is not because its a two-handed weapon, its because you can use any one-handed weapon in two hands.
This means that you can use the TWF feat with them, and any other feat that is applicable to one-handed weapons, all because it is in fact in that category now instead of the two-handed weapon category.
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The.
Weapon.
Does Not.
Change.
The PC only wields it differently, the weapon still keeps it's own designation. It does not suddenly gain the Adaptive quality.
Yes, the one handed damage and effects are used when wielded with one hand, but the weapon itself never changes.
If you TWF with them, they will take massive penalties. (Two Handed Weapons) The feats will not take those penalties down (you need one handed weapons, or one One Handed and a Light weapon)
Expect table variance if you insist on this mis-interpretation of the rules.
The scale for weapon sizes and measure of effort is not on a sliding scale, it stays the same and the character is able to subvert it in only a couple of cases (opened up recently with one source and errata'd for the other) These feats/abilities do not do that. Not Thunder and Fang, nor the Dorn Derger.
The-weapon-does-not-change. The way the character wields it changes, but it is still limited on what he can do when he does so.
It's not a mis-interpretation.
For other people they are a 2-handed weapon.
For you they are a 2-handed weapon that you treat as a 1-handed weapon.
You are able to wield two 1-handed weapons for 2wf.
So when you wield one, you're treating it as a 1-handed, so you could 2wf with it, because for you, you're treating it as a 1-handed.
faq
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
Yes, the one handed damage and effects are used when wielded with one hand, but the weapon itself never changes.
There is no self contained definition of a two handed weapon vs a one handed weapon, that categorization is always based on the character holding the weapon. Here is the rule defining what category a weapon falls under:
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature wields a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon (it still takes the –2 penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon). If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
According to this rule the weapon's category is based on three factors: 1)its size, 2)the size of the creature it was designed for, 3)the size of the creature attempting to wield it. After determining the weapon's category from this rule you can go on to the actual definition of the capabilities of the different weapon categories.
Using this rule I find that Dorn Dergars designed for medium sized creatures are medium sized objects, which for a medium sized character puts them in the two-handed weapon category.
Here is the feat in question:
You can use a Dorn Dergar with only one hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +4, proficiency with the Dorn Dergar.
Benefit: You can use a Dorn Dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action.
Normal: A Dorn Dergar requires two hands to wield.
Your character can now "use a Dorn Dergar as a one-handed weapon". It does not say "You can use a[n appropriately sized] Dorn Dergar as a one-handed weapon". This statement directly contradicts the rule that decides what category the weapon falls under, since no matter what size creature a dorn dergar was designed for it is always sorted into the two-handed weapon category (when wielded appropriately) without this feat.
To further illustrate the contradiction, here is the rule defining the capabilities and limitations of a two-handed weapon:
Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
The Dorn Dergar obviously no longer falls under this category for the character with the Dorn Dergar Master feat.
Since the only rule for choosing the category of a weapon that exists is the Weapon Size rule and the category has now been chosen differently I conclude that the Weapon Size rule is being trump'd by a more specific rule. In other words the dorn dergar master feat is either A) changing the amount of effort required by dorn dergars, or is B) increasing the total amount of effort the character can exert, but only for wielding dorn dergars. I lean towards B personally since feats are supposed to be representative of a character's personal skills, but since it isn't explicitly stated that either of these things happen, and in the end the weapon's category has changed, it doesn't really matter how you got there.
If you TWF with them, they will take massive penalties. (Two Handed Weapons) The feats will not take those penalties down (you need one handed weapons, or one One Handed and a Light weapon)
I think you need to show some rule that supports this, there are no penalties for using two-handed weapons listed under the two-weapon fighting section. You could extrapolate them easily enough, but that would be a house rule. The TWF feat is a prerequisite for both Dorn Dergar Master and Thunder and Fang, so the idea that you are not supposed to be two-weapon fighting with them does not seem to be supported by either the RAW or RAI.
The-weapon-does-not-change. The way the character wields it changes, but it is still limited on what he can do when he does so.
You are correct, the weapon does not change, it stays the same size in relation to the character wielding it (if you go with interpretation B). But it seems that the character's total amount of available effort may have changed in the case of wielding the weapon (dorn dergar or earth breaker). The limits of what the character can do with the weapon are now defined by the rule (or in this case feat) that decides a weapon's category(all weapons), then the One-Handed Weapon rule(weapon category), then the weapon's description(one type of weapon), then whatever extra capabilities are granted from feats(character's capabilities with weapons), and finally whatever special abilities have been placed on the weapon(the specific weapon being wielded) in order from least-to-most specific.
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Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
So, this does not change. The weapon is made, the die cast, it is meant to be wielded as such.
When you quote the section above this quote, you disregard the fact that the weapon itself has one of these designations (Light/One-Handed/Two-Handed) despite the character's skill in wielding the weapon differently than how it was made.
I can see that one can TWF with the weapon, just not two of them. I would think the character would want to wield a light weapon in the off hand to mitigate the penalties. You certainly can not wield an oversized one two handed.
Whatever the phrasing the feat has, treat is as one handed, it seems like a one handed, or is much like a one handed... it is made to allow the character to do things with the weapon and not get Two Handed bonuses while wielding it in such a way that would not beget those bonuses.
There is two abilities, Titan like, that allow the wielding of Two Handed weapons in the way you describe, mostly wielding an oversized one with two hands. This is a recent (last 6 months, year?) change from never having any chance of doing this at all. Not with Thunder and Fang, not with this feat, nor with any other like it.
Just keep this in mind.
Expect Table Variation with this rule.
Last post on this, I don't want to continue the back and forth on the subject. We are never going to convince one another.
I literally just showed you that those are relative definitions, they are reached using another rule dynamically based on who is holding the weapon and what skills they have. They change all the time, its spelled out right here: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."
The fact that you insist they are set in stone is amazing to me when it is defined to be the exact opposite of that.
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Are you looking at both sections of the rules, or focusing on the first set and ignoring the section I just quoted completely. The weapons are made in a specific way. There are no Versatile weapons like in Brand's 4th iteration.
The rules you are pointing out shows what those measures are and how the character uses the weapons with those designations. It is, though, the weapon that has those designations, not the character. The only thing that changes is the character's skill.
ok, since you are ignoring completely how weapon categorization actually happens lets look at this from another perspective (and by that i mean you are pointing to their designations in the shop sheets, which are all necessarily relatively sized to medium creatures).
Your assertion is that both the Dorn Dergar Master feat and the thunder and fang feat only apply to appropriately sized weapons, despite the fact that the feats do not mention appropriate sizes anywhere in their descriptions.
And yet, when feats/abilities are meant to apply only to certain sizes of weapons they state that explicitly (including both of your examples).
Here are some examples:
You wield spears with poise and grace.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 15, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category. In addition, you can use any feat or ability that functions with a quarterstaff with your chosen weapon.
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.
Now compare those with these two feats which have no, i repeat no, size restrictions at all.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +4, proficiency with Dorn Dergars.
Benefit: You can use a Dorn Dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action.
Normal: A Dorn Dergar requires two hands to wield.
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
How are you divining a size restriction here? Where is it stated?
I'm not trying to discredit your argument by asking these questions, I seriously want to know what chain of logic you are using to get here when i can see several rules that state the opposite or that don't support your interpretation.
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ok, since you are ignoring completely how weapon categorization actually happens lets look at this from another perspective (and by that i mean you are pointing to their designations in the shop sheets, which are all necessarily relatively sized to medium creatures).
Your assertion is that both the Dorn Dergar Master feat and the thunder and fang feat only apply to appropriately sized weapons, despite the fact that the feats do not mention appropriate sizes anywhere in their descriptions.
And yet, when feats/abilities are meant to apply only to certain sizes of weapons they state that explicitly (including both of your examples).
Then do you believe that a large lance can be wielded in one-hand by a mounted medium character?
Murdock you're missing what he's saying. It's changing it so that an appropriate Dorn Dergar is a one-handed for this person. So a large still is treated as a two-handed for him since he's treating it as a large one-handed weapon. The size relative to the user still exists, just the category changes.
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When you try to wield an oversized Two Handed Weapon with the two feats at the bottom, you are no longer wielding it as a one handed weapon, but as the weapon actually is, a (Oversized) Two Handed Weapon. How the character could wield the weapon otherwise is not relevant, it is still a Two Handed Weapon that is beyond his measure to wield.
In that same vein, wielding (The normal sized)a second one in the off hand is not possible, as you need a main hand to wield the Two Handed Weapon. (The feat allows the character to wield the weapon with his Main hand as the one hand)
The reason you don't have the phrase for appropriate size in some feats (I am sure there is others out there) is editing and space allotment. There is only so much text given to each particular in a product and sometimes something like this gets left out.
Common Sense and a bit of knowing what was intended. Those trying for some rules shenanigans such is this know that they are fudging the rules and going on the edge of what is possible and what should be possible.
The Giant Weapon Wielder is one of the abilities that allow for oversized Two Handed Weapons, and the Titan Brawler also has an Errated ability that allows it also.
Truthfully, if you want to TWF, you really need to have a light weapon in the off hand to have a better chance to hit. (Edits)
Thank you Chess Pwn, that is what i'm trying to say (about everything except the lance, which is a special case).
Also Murdock, the lance is a special weird case since the intention was for the +.5 str to damage to still happen when mounted and charging.
When you try to wield an oversized Two Handed Weapon with the two feats at the bottom, you are no longer wielding it as a one handed weapon, but as the weapon actually is, a (Oversized) Two Handed Weapon. How the character could wield the weapon otherwise is not relevant, it is still a Two Handed Weapon that is beyond his measure to wield.
No, you're wielding it as an oversized 1 handed weapon, which equates to a 2 handed weapon. While you may not see a distinction there, there definitely is one.
Mechanically the difference between wielding an oversized 1 handed weapon and an oversized 2 handed weapon is this: oversized 1 handers require 2 hands and a -2 penalty to hit, while the oversized 2 handers cannot be wielded at all.
The reason you don't have the phrase for appropriate size in some feats (I am sure there is others out there) is editing and space allotment. There is only so much text given to each particular in a product and sometimes something like this gets left out.
Again, no. The rules work on the theory that "they do what the say, and don't do what they don't say".
This feat says: "Benefit: You can use a Dorn Dergar as a one-handed weapon. When using it one-handed, changing whether it’s a normal or reach weapon is a full-round action. If you have the Darting Viper feat, changing its reach is a move action".
This means that there are no size restrictions, there is no main hand restriction, and there is no requirement that you must be wearing blue boxers and a polka dot bra to use it. Those restrictions do not exist no matter how much you may want them to without an Explicit Statement saying that they do exist (either in the rules or an faq/errata).
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You are the one not seeing the distinction, Ridiculon. The weapon itself stays a two handed weapon, it just will not have the higher damage uptick for wielding it with two hands when using the feat to wield it with one hand.
It is never considered a downgrade from the make of the weapon, the damage die for the weapon stays the same, which is the main advantage of the feat.
There is two abilities that allow one to use an oversized weapon, nothing allows for two of them to be wielded at the same time.
It's changing it so that an appropriate Dorn Dergar is a one-handed for this person. So a large still is treated as a two-handed for him since he's treating it as a large one-handed weapon. The size relative to the user still exists, just the category changes.
The category of the weapon never changes, the character skill in that weapon and how he effect is does. The weapon doesn't change, morph, or adjust itself, the character learns how to effectively wield the weapon differently and the mechanical adjustments are related to One Handed effects that would result in that difference.
The feat says nothing about wielding two of them, or an oversized one.
Right, but to the character it's a one-handed weapon. And any character can wield two one handed weapons. and since for me they are one handed I can wield 2 of them at the same time.
You even say so yourself I think.
"the character learns how to effectively wield the weapon differently and the mechanical adjustments are related to One Handed effects that would result in that difference."
The character learns how to wield them them differently. We both agree.
The mechanical adjustments are they are treated as one handed for the user. Is this what you're saying?
TLDR: Thax, you need to explain your view better of what you think. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." means mechanically.
ok, so you have now ignored every rule that has been quoted, every feat that has been quoted, and the faq that all say your interpretation is incorrect.
If you are going to continue posting please link or quote the rules/feats/faq/errata/dev quote that support your interpretation, up to this point you have not done so and i am no longer willing to believe that you have any supporting evidence for your views without at least one of those things.
EDIT: i apologize if this is starting to sound rude but i am getting frustrated with the lack of explanation of why you believe the things you believe
If you can wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, as if you were wielding a one-handed weapon, you certainly can wield one in each hand, each thus being treated (by you) as if it were wielded as a one-handed weapon.
It never loses its actual categorization of Two-Handed Weapon (so construction costs, hit points, etc. are all still calculated as a two-handed weapon). However, how you wield it is treated identically as any other actual one-handed weapon.
Whether you're actually wielding two longswords or wielding two greatswords which you're allowed to wield as if they were one-handed weapons, it doesn't matter; aside from damage dice and any attendant penalties possibly associated with the ability to let you wield a greatsword in one hand, you can do the exact same things with the greatswords as you can with the longswords (leaving room for corner case scenarios, of course).
I'm not sure how there's any other way to understand how these abilities function, to be honest.
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Hey guys, i was building a Dwarf fighter to take through the dwarf cleave feats. U know the Goblin cleave, orc hewer, cleave and greater cleave, Power attack and furious focus (so a minimum investment of 6 feats to do really)
And i was building it as a Two handed fighter archtype so that i can use my Str x2.
So i got 3 levels in and no one seemed to blink even though i stated that this was the reason i was a dwarf etc.etc. but then another player said that i cant cleave and have my Str x2.
The way i read it and i will summarise is that the Str x2 was for a single attack. The cleave says you make a single attack as a standard action so i thought i was fine.
So is this the rule and is it in an errata or FAQ somewhere?
So now i'm pretty annoyed at the player cos i feel he's gone and "checked up on me" just so he can spoil my day.
If its ambiguous i'm pretty sure this player will talk the local GM's into his interperetation which will annoy me more and if i can't change my character even tho its been retconned into nothingness i'm going to have to retire her.
Just a side comment. If looking for a cleaving archetype, the Corsair Fighter archetype is pretty solid. Basically forces you to take cleave at 2nd and greater cleave at 6th, but you aren't required to meet the feat requirements AND you don't get -2 AC when cleaving with either. Otherwise, it replaces armor training with a variant that makes it easier to use acrobatics and swim in armor, but loses any other benefits of the armor training.
So, if planning to go cleaving anyway, this is a solid archetype.
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He is wielding it in One Hand, using One Handed effects such as 1.0 str mod damage, +2 for every -1 for power attack and the like.
That is what it means by "...as a one handed weapon." It never changes the weapon itself, just the skill to which the character uses the weapon.
Expect table variation when you talk with different GM's, Expect different rulings for each feat like this for various situations (Such as using a Klar with the Earth Breaker).
You said that the feat doesn't say that you can not wield two of them or that the "size" difference should allow the wielding of a larger weapon.
I maintain that it does not say that you can either, that the feat does not specifically say "You can use two of these weapons" or "This allows you to wield an oversized weapon with this feat."
My main point is that the scale you refer to, the one that denotes the weapon as being a Two Handed Weapon, never moves or scales because of character skill. To do this would change the damage the weapon actually does (From 2d6 to 1d8 or similar)
This is evident with the Bastard Sword example, which is a One Handed weapon that characters not specialized in it's use needs to use the weapon with Two Hands. (It is a Two Handed weapon for them) This is the case where having Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) makes the weapon One Handed for them.
This is not the case here, the character only uses it as such as denoted in the feat. Nowhere in that feat does it mention being able to double wield the suckers or wield an oversized one. Where do you see it?
Thax, you need to explain your view better of what you think. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." means mechanically.
I believe you feel it means only for str and power attack and nothing else, but I want to make sure. So please, explain in mechanics what the feat does to an earthbreaker and any rules that support your view. An example would be, how it would be different than a warhammer that was a little heavier and did 2d6 damage.
We believe that the feat "turns it into a Warhammer" meaning that, at least for the character, it's a one-handed weapon, just as much as a Warhammer is. And the rules support for being able to 2wf with them or "wield an oversized one" is that it has mechanically been made a one-handed weapon that deals 2d6 damage. And as with any one-handed weapon, you can 2wf with 2 of them since they are both one handed weapons. I hope you agree that any character could wield two Warhammers for 2wf. And the oversized is that, as a one-handed weapon, you can wield a large one as a two-handed weapon, since it is now no different mechanically than a Warhammer that does 2d6 damage and is a little heavier.
Do you have any questions about the explanation of our view?
Can you see WHY we believe you could 2wf with them or wield a large one if we are correct that it is treated mechanically a one-handed weapon for all these things for the character?
Do you agree that one could 2wf with them or use a large one if we are correct that they'd be treated same as warhammers?