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The only Errata that I am seeing for Secrets of Magic is regarding the Remaster Compatibility. And that Errata doesn't address any of those problems - only things like replacements for alignment damage and cantrips having spell ability bonus damage removed.
So with the same rules text, we are going to come to the same conclusions.
#1 ask your DM. The Eidolon trait states "An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested)" so the DM has to determine if that means all items or just magic ones.
#2 ask your DM. This is an area not covered so how it's adjudicated is up to the DM.
#3 it dies: an Eidolon only unmanifests when it's forced beyond 100' or you are reduced to 0 Hit Points. Since the effect is what reduces hp to 0 it must happen BEFORE it can unmanifest: it can't unmanifest before it's dead or it wouldn't reduce hp to 0.
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#3 it dies: an Eidolon only unmanifests when it's forced beyond 100' or you are reduced to 0 Hit Points. Since the effect is what reduces hp to 0 it must happen BEFORE it can unmanifest: it can't unmanifest before it's dead or it wouldn't reduce hp to 0.
Corrolary: After your Eidolon dies, Ask your GM how to continue playing the game with that Summoner character.
So there are a couple of questions about eidolons that weren't really answered last time I looked and I wanted to check if we had heard something since.
1st Can eidolon use mundane items (healers tools, thieves tools etc)
2nd What happens to afflictions on the eidolon when they are unmanifested (poison, disease etc).
3rd What happens when an eidolon is reduced to 0 hps by a death effect (does the specific rule that an eidolon unmanifest when reaching 0hps trump the general rule that creatures die when reduced to 0 hps by a death effect)
Has already pointed there's no oficial answers to these questions (we are waiting an errata about this for years). So is you to your GM to decide.
IMO my houserules are:
1. Eidolon cannot use mundane items but in order to make the tools to work I use a similar rule of magic item bonus and runes to them. If the summoner has these tools their magically manifests with the eidolon to its uses including their item bonus if they have one even if it's not magic.
2. I rule as they continue once that your eidolon still exists somewhere.
About the 3rd point I was revising some rules and I notice a thing:
After you die, you can’t act or regain actions or be affected by spells that target creatures (unless they specifically target dead creatures), and for all other purposes you are an object. When you die, you are reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 Hit Points as long as you remain dead. Some magic can bring creatures back to life, such as the resurrect ritual or the raise dead spell.
Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are automatically reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!
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If an eidolon is unable to use mundane tools, then that severely limits its ability to make full use of feats like Dual Studies and Skilled Partner. Several skills (like Medicine and Thievery, for example) don't do a whole lot for you without the appropriate tools.
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Corrolary: After your Eidolon dies, Ask your GM how to continue playing the game with that Summoner character.
Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are automatically reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!
No, the player goes to Dying 1 because it's hp are 0. As they share hp, and the dead can't raise their hp above 0, you can at best make them unconscious with 0 Hit Points: this means that you can prevent death but they can't ever do anything until the Eidolon is brought back to life.
So, no it doesn't kill the summoner but it's mighty close.
If an eidolon is unable to use mundane tools, then that severely limits its ability to make full use of feats like Dual Studies and Skilled Partner. Several skills (like Medicine and Thievery, for example) don't do a whole lot for you without the appropriate tools.
"severely limits" is quite the overstatement: every skill has uses that do not require tools. This means that basically Medicine [1 1st level skill feat is usable] and Thievery lack variety [3 1st level skill feat is usable] aren't usable for Skilled Partner... Hardly seems like the end of the world and it's doesn't 'severely limit' options.
Note that Dual Studies isn't impacted at all as every skill has non-tool options: even medicine is used for Recall Knowledge and has the skill feat Forensic Acumen for Skilled Partner. The only way you really see limits is if you specifically go out of your way to pick tool skills and then pick skill feats from those skills: even then, there are enough options you can pick feats. Take craft: Recall Knowledge is usable without tools and a 1st level skill feat, Improvise Tool, allows repair checks without tools and you have feats to speed up repair, ID magic items, aid others in crafting...
Medicine focused eidolons can probably get away with using healing plaster if they have spells, unless a handful of dirt counts as an item lol
That'll work for beast, elemental, plant and fey [primal tradition]. Good catch! ;)
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Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are automatically reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!No, the player goes to Dying 1 because it's hp are 0. As they share hp, and the dead can't raise their hp above 0, you can at best make them unconscious with 0 Hit Points: this means that you can prevent death but they can't ever do anything until the Eidolon is brought back to life.
So, no it doesn't kill the summoner but it's mighty close.
I don't think that is all clear. I can argure the reverse. The Summoners HPs were reduced to zero by a death effect (which damaged it's Eidolon). You only have one pool of hit points. It is not like there is a disconnect or level of indirection here. I'd just as easily have the death effect apply to the Summoner.
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If an eidolon is unable to use mundane tools, then that severely limits its ability to make full use of feats like Dual Studies and Skilled Partner. Several skills (like Medicine and Thievery, for example) don't do a whole lot for you without the appropriate tools."severely limits" is quite the overstatement: every skill has uses that do not require tools.
Yep but still clearly a reasonable candidate for TBTBT.
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Thanks for starting this threat !! I had similar thoughts and wanted to write it now but instead will add it here.
1) Where does it state that an Eidolon can't use mundane items?
P.53 says:
Gear and your Eidolon
Your eidolon can’t wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. An eidolon can have up to two items invested. Your eidolon’s link to you means it can benefit from certain magic items invested by you.
It carries on how item bonuses are handled. This part is to ensure no misuse/stacking happens that gives an unfair advantage. An Eidolon (at least mine) has 2 hands. He has intelligence and skills. I can see zero indications that use of mundane items are in any way forbidden if the Eidolon has the skills / can physically use them.
Please someone quote the rules text if that is wrong.
The way I handled it so far: An Eidolon can carry stuff that drops to the floor when unmanifested. As such it tends not to carry/use anything unless for a short time span. Is this wrong according to RAW?
A typical use case for my Eidolon is to cast evolution surge to gain a swim or climb speed - then have the Eidolon to go dive for treasure/the McGuffin or climb up a cliff to throw down a rope to the party. Where does even 'use of a mundane item' start?
2) This clearly needs to be addressed in a remastered version of the summoner to ensure it neither handicaps the summoner nor that it leads to potential misuse.
The way I have seen it handled at the tables I have been at: Poisoned or bleed do not progress in unmanifested form. The Eidolon tends to get summoned back only after a while (you finish a fight / heal up etc. first) - so it is assumed the timer has worn off and the condition is cleared.
This implies the timer carries on. The actual effect of the condition doesn't carry on. It seems the most sensible approach in my view to avoid misuse. But it doesn't include how to handle a permanent condition.
Simple Example - Blindness Spell (lvl 3) - critical failure.
Can you 'cure it' using Manifest Eidolon twice or do you need a successful Restore Senses Spell to cure it?
3) Getting the condition Dead should be similar to how to cure blindness. Do you resurrect using a Raise Dead or similar or can you unmanifest to revive it.
Unfortunately the rules add one snag to it. If the Eidolon is dead it goes to 0 HP with no way to raise the HP above unless it gets revived. The summoner wouldn't die - but due to the shared HP pool he goes unconscious and his HP can't be raised to above 0 HP as well - which means he never can manifest the Eidolon again to get spells applied on it.
In my view this clearly isn't the intention that if you kill an eidolon then the best the summoner can be is permanent unconsciousness. So that edge case needs an additional solution
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1) Where does it state that an Eidolon can't use mundane items?
P.53 says:
Gear and your Eidolon
Your eidolon can’t wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. An eidolon can have up to two items invested. Your eidolon’s link to you means it can benefit from certain magic items invested by you.
That is not it. If fact this rule only stops magic item use by the eidolon.
Instead look at
P51
Key Terms
Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)
Honestly I think the intention is only prohibition of magic items. They just have worded it poorly. There are of course non magical items like alchemical ones.
1) Where does it state that an Eidolon can't use mundane items?
As mentioned earlier, there are threads dedicated to this particular topic. And the conclusion of those threads is that the rules are literally contradictory.
Gear and Your Eidolon only limits magical items: "Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait."
And the Eidolon trait limits all items: "An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait."
And different people have different viewpoints on which one of those takes priority.
Corrolary: After your Eidolon dies, Ask your GM how to continue playing the game with that Summoner character.Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are automatically reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!No, the player goes to Dying 1 because it's hp are 0. As they share hp, and the dead can't raise their hp above 0, you can at best make them unconscious with 0 Hit Points: this means that you can prevent death but they can't ever do anything until the Eidolon is brought back to life.
So, no it doesn't kill the summoner but it's mighty close.
You are technically correct.
And I would agree that this state of the Summoner being permanently at stable and unconscious with 0 HP is effectively non-functional for gameplay and the character is equivalent to dead.
Corrolary: After your Eidolon dies, Ask your GM how to continue playing the game with that Summoner character.Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are automatically reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!No, the player goes to Dying 1 because it's hp are 0. As they share hp, and the dead can't raise their hp above 0, you can at best make them unconscious with 0 Hit Points: this means that you can prevent death but they can't ever do anything until the Eidolon is brought back to life.
So, no it doesn't kill the summoner but it's mighty close.
To put the summoner into a permanent coma because the eidolon is dead and cannot recover the shared HP?
Well if we do this also will prevent the eidolon ressurection with nothing less than a Rank 9 Resurrect ritual because when the Eidolon HP zeroes it's body vanishes!Honestly is better to kill the summoner and allow it to be resurrected!
Wouldn't the Death Effect also effect the summoner since Eidolons and the Summoner share negative effects between each other?
Wouldn't the Death Effect also effect the summoner since Eidolons and the Summoner share negative effects between each other?
This isn't true, except where explicitly stated in the rules.
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Wouldn't the Death Effect also effect the summoner since Eidolons and the Summoner share negative effects between each other?This isn't true, except where explicitly stated in the rules.
Specifically, the things listed are:
Effects that affect your shared actions:
If you or your eidolon becomes slowed, stunned, quickened, or otherwise affected by something that changes the actions you gain at the start of each turn, it affects your shared actions. However, if you are both subject to such an effect, apply only the more severe one.
And effects that affect your shared Hit Points:
Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable).
Other conditions such as Frightened, Enfeebled, Clumsy, or Off-Guard only affect the one of them that actually has the condition.
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I don't think that is all clear. I can argure the reverse. The Summoners HPs were reduced to zero by a death effect (which damaged it's Eidolon). You only have one pool of hit points. It is not like there is a disconnect or level of indirection here. I'd just as easily have the death effect apply to the Summoner.
I don't see the logic that transfers the death effect to the summoner as it's not a listed condition that transfers.
Yep but still clearly a reasonable candidate for TBTBT.
It'd be nice if TBTBT was in the actual rules. What there is is "If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed." which is vaguer as it's not known which is intended and, as I pointed out, it's not overly problematic the vast majority of skills and skill feats are usable without tools.
To put the summoner into a permanent coma because the eidolon is dead and cannot recover the shared HP?
Well if we do this also will prevent the eidolon ressurection with nothing less than a Rank 9 Resurrect ritual because when the Eidolon HP zeroes it's body vanishes!Honestly is better to kill the summoner and allow it to be resurrected!
Yeah, I agree but IMO that's how it works. The only way around it would be to say that the dead eidolon doesn't unmanifest as it's an object now and not creature and doesn't vanish but that's a stretch. Better to just houserule something IMO.
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as I pointed out, it's not overly problematic the vast majority of skills and skill feats are usable without tools.
Quantity is not the same as quality.
Many of those skill usages and skill feats that require tools are the ones that people like to have available.
Such as:
* treat wounds: healer's tools
* repairing equipment (especially shields): repair kit
* crafting: various artisan's, alchemical, and magical crafting toolkits
* force open: prybar
Even some of the lesser used skills require toolkits. Such as Performance: musical instrument, and Disguise: disguise kit.
So no. Just taking a raw count and finding that more than XX% of skill usages or skill feats don't require a toolkit doesn't mean that the ruling that Eidolons can't use toolkits doesn't have problematic repercussions.
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Having had some time to reflect on all the contributions here I had an epiphany - at least one for myself. It might not be the answer - but it might help to get a step closer.
Question 1: Why do we assume that the summoner still shares his HP pool if the Eidolon is unmanifested.
Question 2: How should we treat the shared HP pool in case of unmanifestation?
Keep in mind sharing is 2-way.
How do we treat the HP pool?
Shared:
Case of Eidolon Death: Everyone here seems to agree if the Eidolon dies then the summoner goes to 0 HP and there is no way to get him to >0 unless the Eidolon is raised. This implies the HP pool keeps shared even after unmanifestation.
Not Shared:
Eidolon Dying status: Everyone seems to agree that the Eidolon never gets dying 1 as it first unmanifests. But that implies it no longer shares the HP pool after unmanifestation.
Eidolon bleed status: I have never seen it being tracked after unmanifestation. Again that implies it no longer shares the HP pool after unmanifestation.
Eidolon poisoned status: I have never seen it being tracked after unmanifestation. Again that implies it no longer shares the HP pool after unmanifestation.
We actually seem to contradict ourselves how it actually is handled in different cases. No - off course the rules don't say either way.
We actually seem to contradict ourselves how it actually is handled in different cases. No - off course the rules don't say either way.
Yup. That is because when the dice are hitting the table, people want to play a fun game - not argue about rules.
as I pointed out, it's not overly problematic the vast majority of skills and skill feats are usable without tools.Quantity is not the same as quality.
Many of those skill usages and skill feats that require tools are the ones that people like to have available.
Such as:
* treat wounds: healer's tools
* repairing equipment (especially shields): repair kit
* crafting: various artisan's, alchemical, and magical crafting toolkits
* force open: prybarEven some of the lesser used skills require toolkits. Such as Performance: musical instrument, and Disguise: disguise kit.
So no. Just taking a raw count and finding that more than XX% of skill usages or skill feats don't require a toolkit doesn't mean that the ruling that Eidolons can't use toolkits doesn't have problematic repercussions.
As pointed out, there is a skill feat to allow repair without tools and a cantrip to use Medicine checks to Administer First Aid or Treat Wounds without a healers tools. Additionally, force open does NOT require a pry bar...
That means you are looking at actual crafting, treat disease/poison, pick locks/disable device and disguise as issues. Performance can be used 100% [Act or perform comedy, Dance and Orate or sing work fine so it's ONLY Play an instrument it can't use]. AGAIN, it doesn't seem like a big issue that a small/limited number of skill actions can't be used and is sure isn't 'severely limiting' as was suggested. Out of the 68 skill actions [including individual Recall Knowledge/Earn Income/ect] you could take, only 5.25 [.25 for Play an instrument] are impossible for an Eidolon to use... so .061% of possible actions doesn't seem like a big deal.
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Eidolon bleed status: I have never seen it being tracked after unmanifestation. Again that implies it no longer shares the HP pool after unmanifestation.
Eidolon poisoned status: I have never seen it being tracked after unmanifestation. Again that implies it no longer shares the HP pool after unmanifestation.We actually seem to contradict ourselves how it actually is handled in different cases. No - off course the rules don't say either way.
I think it's more handwaving it off than ruling something. How many times have you seen beneficial buffs stay on the Eidolon when unmanifested? For myself, that's pretty much handwaved away too: if you rule that conditions continue, then buffs continue too but if you rule that they pause then so to would buffs... Does the DM really want to rule that you and your friends can toss a bunch of spells on your Eidolon, unmanifest it, rest and then go do something with a fully buffed Eidolon and the summoner/friends have all their spells?
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Graystone
Thanks for pointing out beneficial buffs!! I clearly wouldn't want to open a large option for potential misuse.
Is this a potential solution?
Once an Eidolon unmanifests it's current form ceases existence. It therefore loses all conditions> This includes positive buffs from spells or other sources as well as negative ones - even as severe as death. None of these transfer to their next manifestation.
I think this is in line with:
1) buffs don't last
2) conditions like poison or bleed are cured
3) it doesn't completely neuter the summoner if his Eidolon dies
Yes - it gives an Free out of jail card for disease and death for a pretty minor cost. This is the investment in a feat and reaction followed by a triple action or Summoner goes to 0 HP followed by healing of Summoner and triple action or two triple actions by the summoner.
So while I'm against out of jail free cards it seems a simple solution with not too many downsides or options of misuse. Unless I miss some?
It would solve both questions 2 and 3 by the OP.
Is this a potential solution?
Once an Eidolon unmanifests it's current form ceases existence. It therefore loses all conditions
That is how I usually run it.
Yes - it gives an Free out of jail card for disease and death for a pretty minor cost.
The cost is actually pretty high for in-combat use. Considering that combat often only lasts between 4 and 6 rounds, losing the ability to do anything useful for one of them is pretty rough. Two if you manually unsummon the Eidolon one round in order to remove a Persistent Damage condition and then a second one to remanifest them again. That's half the fight right there.
And for out of combat, I often see persistent damage getting handwaved away anyway even for characters that don't have an auto-succeed way of removing it. Usually something along the lines of 'you take one more round of persistent damage, then it ends'.
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only 5.25 [.25 for Play an instrument] are impossible for an Eidolon to use...
Which is still enough for the ruling to be considered to have problematic repercussions.
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only 5.25 [.25 for Play an instrument] are impossible for an Eidolon to use...Which is still enough for the ruling to be considered to have problematic repercussions.
What it will boil down to at the table is that it's goofy and unfun to enforce. It doesn't have to break the game to be an issue, but it does break in the cases of skill feats that require tool use like battle medicine.
I certainly hope Paizo has this on their list of stuff to take care of in the Remaster. With a new and complicated mechanic like a summoner with a single hit point pool, bound to be more rules questions to answer for this class that they will have a chance to fix up with the remaster.
Overall, the single hit point pool has been more advantageous than I thought it would be though there have been a few times where the double saves have really stuck it to me. It hasn't been enough to make playing a summoner a bad experience.
Pretty strong, versatile class in my experience. Definitely can use some polishing up with the rules.
Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
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Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
On the other hand, the scenario where the Eidolon goes down to persistent fire damage means that the Eidolon would unmanifest and be unavailable to have the fire put out with Assisted Recovery. You could only try to stabilize the Summoner, but with the Eidolon still taking persistent damage every round and a DC 15 flat check meaning that it likely lasts for multiple rounds... that is nearly a death sentence.
Is the too good to be true of six-action no-check condition removal a larger magnitude benefit than the detriment of not being able to tend to a debuffed dying Eidolon?
Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
I run it so that conditions keep going, especially poison and disease. It has to keep rolling. Same with bleed. There is some inference that when unmanifested, it is on another plane.
Stuff that will be gone by the next time you manifest are gone.
Permanent or longer duration conditions stay.
Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
On the other hand, the scenario where the Eidolon goes down to persistent fire damage means that the Eidolon would unmanifest and be unavailable to have the fire put out with Assisted Recovery. You could only try to stabilize the Summoner, but with the Eidolon still taking persistent damage every round and a DC 15 flat check meaning that it likely lasts for multiple rounds... that is nearly a death sentence.
Is the too good to be true of six-action no-check condition removal a larger magnitude benefit than the detriment of not being able to tend to a debuffed dying Eidolon?
Yet this is an edge case once the usually when a char falls the first thing that the players usually try to do is heal it and then they may try to remove the persistent damage. So is way more likely that the players will try to heal the summoner and then when summoner manifests the Eidolon again. If eidolon still suffering from persistent damage they may try help it.
Honestly is pretty rare to my players to try to heal a persistent damage. They usually just try to heal the HP and keep fighting while wait the persistent damage to pass.
only 5.25 [.25 for Play an instrument] are impossible for an Eidolon to use...Which is still enough for the ruling to be considered to have problematic repercussions.
As the parameters for what is "problematic" is, or how to define it's amount, are completely undefined, any number from 0 to all of them could be "considered to have problematic repercussions". As such, it's completely pointless to debate if something is or isn't "problematic" as you can't make a general ruling on an amorphous and undefined requirement. It's more productive to debate on what we have to work with since none of us can say what will be problematic to someone else.
What I was posting though on "not overly problematic" and it doesn't 'severely limit' skill and skill feat use. It was a qualified response* with a qualifier: IMO, .061% is a small percentage of issue and thus is "not overly problematic" IMO: but as I said, any amount of problematic could trigger the 'Ambiguous Rules' to make a house rule.
So basically, there really isn't a point of dithering over the Ambiguous Rules as it itself is ambiguous... :P
*'a qualified response' is a phrase used in written English: This phrase is typically used to refer to an answer to a question or statement that is not conclusively accepted or rejected.
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It seems odd when an eidolon doesn't have a body any more (unmanifested) it could still be taking poison, especially given their is nothing you can do about out.
What makes you think it doesn't have a body?
Secrets of Magic pg. 58
"Home Plane: This is the eidolon's home plane, where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment."
This means that beast and plant eidolon go back to the Material Plane, which leads to some... interesting questions.
This means that beast and plant eidolon go back to the Material Plane, which leads to some... interesting questions.
Not just them, though those are probably the easiest ones to do it with.
The interesting questions, of course, are regarding what happens when the party goes and finds the unmanifested Eidolon in its home location. Can the Eidolon join the party with no further restrictions on being summoned or distance from Summoner being enforced? Can the Summoner then summon the Eidolon to any effect? If they can summon the Eidolon and move it 10 feet to be adjacent to the Summoner, then they unmanifest the Eidolon, does it go back to its original location 10 feet away, or does it go back to where the party first found the Eidolon at?
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Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
It is abusable either way. If conditions don't clear then you can precast as well.
The rules don't say - they need to.
Yet this is an edge case once the usually when a char falls the first thing that the players usually try to do is heal it and then they may try to remove the persistent damage. So is way more likely that the players will try to heal the summoner and then when summoner manifests the Eidolon again. If eidolon still suffering from persistent damage they may try help it.
Honestly is pretty rare to my players to try to heal a persistent damage. They usually just try to heal the HP and keep fighting while wait the persistent damage to pass.
Dying to persistent damage is not any more of an edge case than living with it.
Normally people would rather just take the damage and attempt their flat check rather than spending six actions mid-battle removing persistent damage. Two Assisted Recovery attempts means that you are spending four actions and get a total of 4 flat checks at DC 10 to remove the condition (two immediately after each Assisted Recovery, and two automatically at the end of the Summoner's turn as normal). Six actions and zero checks sounds like a downgrade to me.
It seems odd when an eidolon doesn't have a body any more (unmanifested) it could still be taking poison, especially given their is nothing you can do about out.What makes you think it doesn't have a body?
Secrets of Magic pg. 58
"Home Plane: This is the eidolon's home plane, where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment."This means that beast and plant eidolon go back to the Material Plane, which leads to some... interesting questions.
That's why there's no lore reason to stop the effects when the Eidolon is unmanifested.
Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
It is abusable either way. If conditions don't clear then you can precast as well.
The rules don't say - they need to.
I'm not saying that these condition freezes when the Eidolon is in its home plane. If you precast their duration still counts while it's unmanifested.
Yet this is an edge case once the usually when a char falls the first thing that the players usually try to do is heal it and then they may try to remove the persistent damage. So is way more likely that the players will try to heal the summoner and then when summoner manifests the Eidolon again. If eidolon still suffering from persistent damage they may try help it.
Honestly is pretty rare to my players to try to heal a persistent damage. They usually just try to heal the HP and keep fighting while wait the persistent damage to pass.
Dying to persistent damage is not any more of an edge case than living with it.
Normally people would rather just take the damage and attempt their flat check rather than spending six actions mid-battle removing persistent damage. Two Assisted Recovery attempts means that you are spending four actions and get a total of 4 flat checks at DC 10 to remove the condition (two immediately after each Assisted Recovery, and two automatically at the end of the Summoner's turn as normal). Six actions and zero checks sounds like a downgrade to me.
DC 10 is only with "a particularly appropriate type of help" and isn't guaranteed: this means you should look at it from a DC 15: so 4 checks vs a DC 15 vs auto check is what you should be looking at. That or you might have to spend extra actions to get items for that "a particularly appropriate type of help" like pulling a waterskin out of a backpack [2 actions] or taking off a cloak to smother flames [1 action].
That's why there's no lore reason to stop the effects when the Eidolon is unmanifested.
There is no lore reason for what happens when they are unmanifested period. For instance, if it's mobile and effects happen, does that mean something might attack and injure or kill it while on that other plane? I mean, there is no lore reason your Eidolon can't kick the bucket while it's living its life on its home plane either... It's opening a whole can of worms if the Eidolon isn't in some kind of stasis. I mean if we're only going by "lore", your summoner could reasonably wake up dead from its Eidolon getting killed. ;)
DC 10 is only with "a particularly appropriate type of help" and isn't guaranteed:
True. Though I have never actually seen it run where a player spends two actions on Assisted Recovery and doesn't get the DC reduced.
this means you should look at it from a DC 15: so 4 checks vs a DC 15 vs auto check is what you should be looking at.
four actions and 4 checks at DC 15 vs six actions. Don't forget the action cost. Because that is the biggest cost, not the risk of failure. Staying on fire is annoying. Spending two entire turns removing it is (based on my experience from all of the combats that I have had characters in) catastrophic.
That or you might have to spend extra actions to get items for that "a particularly appropriate type of help" like pulling a waterskin out of a backpack [2 actions] or taking off a cloak to smother flames [1 action].
Also, in games that I have played in the action cost of Assisted Recovery includes various incedental things like taking off a cloak or grabbing a waterskin. But that is a GM specific and table specific type of thing.
I'm not saying that these condition freezes when the Eidolon is in its home plane. If you precast their duration still counts while it's unmanifested.Honestly I think that clear condition when your Eidolon unmanifests is TGTBT. This easily would end in "Oh! My Eidolon was debuffed. Let's unmanifest it to clear it without any checks".
That's why I consider that's all effects are ongoing no matter if the eidolon is in the field or not.
It is abusable either way. If conditions don't clear then you can precast as well.
The rules don't say - they need to.
Yes but spells like TailWind and Invisibility 2 are easy to get out of low level items and last a long time. The Eidolon becomes very different if long term buffs are available.