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Paizo has confirmed golems are getting gone in the Pathfinder Remaster. See Logan discussing this at 1:26:25 or so, citing they had a bunch of complicated rules. Instead we will get separate constructs which have resistance to damage from spells. We basically already knew this because the the PF1 brass golem was turned into the PF2 brass bastion. The two are direct analogues, except instead of the typical golem magic immunity the bastion has: Resistances physical 15 (except adamantine), spells 15 (except water)
While Logan confirmed there will be other examples of this, like a "stone bulwark," you don't have to wait! You can start remastering golems today, and should definitely consider doing so.
How do I remaster a golem?
Simply find whatever magic the golem was "harmed by" under their golem antimagic ability. Then add damage resistance all spells but that same trait equal to the creature's physical resistance. Then discard golem antimagic. So if we wanted to remaster a glass golem, we would look at these two lines:
Resistances physical 10 (except adamantine or bludgeoning)
Golem Antimagic harmed by sonic (6d6, 2d6 from areas or persistent damage); healed by fire (area 2d6 HP); slowed by cold
And we simply tweak it to read:
Resistances physical 10 (except adamantine or bludgeoning), spells (except sonic)
And you're done! You can apply this to any pre-remaster golem and get something much simpler to run.
Why should I remaster? OGL golems work just fine.
Do they, though? Golem antimagic was an interesting ability, but one that generated a lot of confusing rule questions. Did fundamental weapon runes work on golems? How about weapon property runes, could they trigger the "healed by" or "harmed by" entries? And this has only gotten worse with later classes. Can a Thaumaturge trigger the golem antimagic weakness with Mortal Weakness? What is a kineticist supposed to do if they have the wrong element?
Beyond that, some people found this kind of blanket immunity really unfun. (I liked it, but I can certainly see their case.)
Why didn't Paizo just clarify the rules on golem antimagic?
The most obvious reason is copy right. The broad concept of an animated statue called a golem is extremely widespread, but that specific form of golem antimagic is straight out of D&D. Since Paizo is leaving the OGL, they can kill two birds with one stone by ditching the golem as we know it.
There's also a third bird: The term golem comes from Jewish folklore. I'm not sure how many Jewish folks were offended by this appropriation, and I'm no scholar of the Torah, but as I understand it the golem story is deeply spiritual and often used to represent ideas like man foolishly encroaching upon the territory of God. I'm not sure if the D&D take is offensive, but its certainly trite. Part of the remaster is taking creatures back toward their folklore origins instead of the pop culture versions they evolved into with D&D, and there's probably a take that's not only more respectful but more interesting. (On a similar note, I'm hoping we start getting biblically accurate angels.)
Well, I still like my D&D style golems.
Then keep using them! The great thing about the remaster is most things are cross compatible. Be prepared to deal with problems if your players have kineticists or property runes, but that was always the case.
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Why should I remaster? OGL golems work just fine.
Do they, though? Golem antimagic was an interesting ability, but one that generated a lot of confusing rule questions.
If anyone wants more examples of confusing ruling scenarios regarding Golem Antimagic, let me know. I have plenty of them.
Yeah, it was a mess. I kinda loved it, but it was a mess. I'll add that if you ever want to turn an ORC not-golem into an OGL golem, it's doable. It is a little harder, but we have 14 published golems to use as templates. Just take the golem antimagic values of the closest level match and then swap in the appropriate elements.
And we simply tweak it to read:
Resistances physical 10 (except adamantine or bludgeoning), spells (except sonic)And you're done! You can apply this to any pre-remaster golem and get something much simpler to run.
But what about the fire healing??? Things like that often allowed for more interesting encounter building, like putting a fire healing golem as a guard for a dwarven forge that did constant environmental heat damage.
But what about the fire healing??? Things like that often allowed for more interesting encounter building, like putting a fire healing golem as a guard for a dwarven forge that did constant environmental heat damage.And we simply tweak it to read:
Resistances physical 10 (except adamantine or bludgeoning), spells (except sonic)And you're done! You can apply this to any pre-remaster golem and get something much simpler to run.
They aren't part of the remaster formula. You can add them back in, I suppose.
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Also, the nebulous rules around golden antimagic confused many players about whether it is only magical sources of these element types that trigger weaknesses/healing/effects, or any element could do it.
Like the Iron golem was immune to fire so couldn’t actually take fire damage. The rules about fire healing are exclusively in the golem antimagic description so many folks read that to mean only magical fire could heal a golem. Otherwise the ability to heal from fire should have been separated out from that ability.
More important than the fire healing, they dropped the slow on cold damage. If Golems end up with just a resistance to spells, this is plain bad to casters. Against golems casters were able, by targetting the proper element, to be very strong. So there was a real place to casters in Golem fights, as long as RK checks were a success. Now if the only thing you can do is debuff them then that's lame.
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More important than the fire healing, they dropped the slow on cold damage. If Golems end up with just a resistance to spells, this is plain bad to casters. Against golems casters were able, by targetting the proper element, to be very strong. So there was a real place to casters in Golem fights, as long as RK checks were a success. Now if the only thing you can do is debuff them then that's lame.
Agreed; although a rules headache, some of the principles of the old golem antimagic were cool.
Many a PC got excited when they realized they could do the damage of a top level spell slot using a cantrip, if they hit the right damage type.And the ability to slow one made the wizard player shine, after they got the RK.
Now by targeting the golem's "weakness" they can be exactly as effective as they would normally be expected to be.
Agreed; although a rules headache, some of the principles of the old golem antimagic were cool.
Many a PC got excited when they realized they could do the damage of a top level spell slot using a cantrip, if they hit the right damage type.
And the ability to slow one made the wizard player shine, after they got the RK.Now by targeting the golem's "weakness" they can be exactly as effective as they would normally be expected to be.
Also because damage was overridden my players were especially excited when they realised they could do top tier damage but on a successful basic save.
It is a big part of why golems were fun for casters at my table. The rogue pulling out a dragon's breath potion for a stone golem was a highlight for the rogue too.
Atually, with the end of OGL, I hoped Paizo would go the other way around: Golem being specifically weak to magic. I find that it makes a lot of sense, as they are magically crafted creature, for magic to be especially disrupting to their core nature.
Agreed; although a rules headache, some of the principles of the old golem antimagic were cool.
Many a PC got excited when they realized they could do the damage of a top level spell slot using a cantrip, if they hit the right damage type.
And the ability to slow one made the wizard player shine, after they got the RK.Now by targeting the golem's "weakness" they can be exactly as effective as they would normally be expected to be.
Also because damage was overridden my players were especially excited when they realised they could do top tier damage but on a successful basic save.
It is a big part of why golems were fun for casters at my table. The rogue pulling out a dragon's breath potion for a stone golem was a highlight for the rogue too.
This wasn't our experience at all. Being able to fly out of the reach of a host of clay and stone golems, pelting them with ray of frost until they fell to pieces made them into an absolute joke. They were less of a threat than a level -4 creature, despite their higher level. It was like spoon feeding the heroes XP. One of the most anticlimactic encounters we've ever had in PF2e for GM and players both.
I will not miss golem antimagic as written one bit. It was a broken mechanic six ways from Sunday.
Atually, with the end of OGL, I hoped Paizo would go the other way around: Golem being specifically weak to magic. I find that it makes a lot of sense, as they are magically crafted creature, for magic to be especially disrupting to their core nature.
I agree but I don't think that is the remaster intent in general. The designers don't want to change how the things are and conceptually work instead they just want to make the things easier to deal, understand and manage. Most of the PC1 changes are around this. OK we have some pontual conceptual changes (yet keeping the main idea) like Shocking Grasp -> Thunderstrike that changes an electric touch attack damage spell to a pretty long ranged basic save spell (yet still keep the concept of be a single target rank 1 electric damage spell) or Cone of Cold -> Howling Blizzard that adds the 3-action version that allows to use it like a cold "fireball" (yet the 2 action version that allows it to be used as cone still there just give a bit less damage).
I think having specific traits of spells explicitly slow Bastions was probably just too much of a clear mechanical tie to the OGL golem to hold on to, whether it seen as a worthwhile complexity to hold onto or not from a fun or balance perspective. Besides, any caster can now just cast slow on a bastion if they have the goal of slowing it down.
Golem antimagic was a mechanic that just ignored everything unique about PF2 casting and combat to be worth trying to carry over, in my opinion. Especially, Golems were creatures that could be solved far too easily in a manner that bypassed level balance, which is an unnecessary breaking point to have in the game’s tight math. Perhaps we will see some Bastions get further elemental weaknesses not tied to magic at all, since alchemists and inventors should be able to get in on the fun, but resistance 15 to physical and all spells but 1 damage type is pretty brutal. It doesn’t really make defeating the brass bastion without being prepared to do so with the right spells and items a good idea.
I agree, a good monster design should balance resistances by weaknesses to encourage parties to adapt to the situation. Right now, I feel that this Bastion is just "resistant to everything, deal with it". Against this kind of enemies, combat is just a slog.
I also forgot: Kineticists will be mostly unable to affect Golems unless they have the proper element. Speaking of slogs...
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I agree, a good monster design should balance resistances by weaknesses to encourage parties to adapt to the situation. Right now, I feel that this Bastion is just "resistant to everything, deal with it". Against this kind of enemies, combat is just a slog.
I also forgot: Kineticists will be mostly unable to affect Golems unless they have the proper element. Speaking of slogs...
No because the resistance is to spells, not magic. Energy attacks, even magical ones, will mostly be very effective unless the bastion is immune to the energy type.
I agree, a good monster design should balance resistances by weaknesses to encourage parties to adapt to the situation. Right now, I feel that this Bastion is just "resistant to everything, deal with it". Against this kind of enemies, combat is just a slog.
I also forgot: Kineticists will be mostly unable to affect Golems unless they have the proper element. Speaking of slogs...
How is "resistant to spell damage" worse feeling than "immune to all but a select number of spells"?
How is "resistant to spell damage" worse feeling than "immune to all but a select number of spells"?
Because against "resistance to spell damage", you can't do anything but either try to brute force the resistance (very hard as the main asset of spells is to deal damage even on a successful save, damage that would be mostly negated by the resistance) or just do something else. With "immune to most but weak to a select few" you can shine by using the proper spells.
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Well, if kineticist impulses count as spells for resistance purposes, (which will either need to be called out in the monster core when talking about resistances or be a contentious sore spot in the rules forever) then at least only the damage is prevented. Against golem antimagic the kineticist can’t do anything with any targeted abilities unless the “spell” does one of 2 damage types.
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Well, if kineticist impulses count as spells for resistance purposes, (which will either need to be called out in the monster core when talking about resistances or be a contentious sore spot in the rules forever) then at least only the damage is prevented. Against golem antimagic the kineticist can’t do anything with any targeted abilities unless the “spell” does one of 2 damage types.
I don't think there's any contention on this rule, it's written clearly in the Kineticist class.
Before the remaster, Golems (and Will-o-Wisps) were serious problems to Kineticists, but at least we knew they would be remastered. But if Paizo goes the same way than the Brass Bastion for Golems then Kineticist is forever screwed.
Well, if kineticist impulses count as spells for resistance purposes, (which will either need to be called out in the monster core when talking about resistances or be a contentious sore spot in the rules forever) then at least only the damage is prevented. Against golem antimagic the kineticist can’t do anything with any targeted abilities unless the “spell” does one of 2 damage types.I don't think there's any contention on this rule, it's written clearly in the Kineticist class.
Before the remaster, Golems (and Will-o-Wisps) were serious problems to Kineticists, but at least we knew they would be remastered. But if Paizo goes the same way than the Brass Bastion for Golems then Kineticist is forever screwed.
Yup.
Impulses are magical, and though they aren't spells, some things that affect spells also affect impulses. Abilities that restrict you from casting spells (such as being polymorphed into a battle form) or protect against spells (such as a spell that protects against other spells or a creature's bonus to saves against spells) also apply to impulses.
The list of examples is not exhaustive. Being resistant to spell damage qualifies as something that protects against spells.
Something that is damage resistant to all spells except fire spells means that a Kineticist other than a Fire Kineticist is going to be unable to do much.
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The key for Kineticist though is that it is just resistance, not a special feature, so if the bastion has the corresponding elemental traits, they can now clearly extract element from the creature and then use all their abilities against it. They could not do this against any kind of Golems without a lot of GM arbitration. Additionally, all of their non damaging effects will work just fine against golems, which was not the case before.
Losing 1 additional damage type which just slows a creature is not a big deal compared to being able to clearly interact with the rest of your nondamaging impulses/aura effects and being able to extract element from bastions. A metal kineticist was nearly worthless against an Iron Golem. They will not be so against an Iron Bastion.
Losing 1 additional damage type which just slows a creature is not a big deal compared to being able to clearly interact with the rest of your nondamaging impulses/aura effects and being able to extract element from bastions.
We don't know as of now if the golems will lose the "slow". If it's the case then it's a wash to me.
The key for Kineticist though is that it is just resistance, not a special feature, so if the bastion has the corresponding elemental traits, they can now clearly extract element from the creature and then use all their abilities against it. They could not do this against any kind of Golems without a lot of GM arbitration. Additionally, all of their non damaging effects will work just fine against golems, which was not the case before.
Certain types of Kineticist will be fine against certain types of Bastion.
For example a Fire or Water Kineticist will be fine against a Brass Bastion. The Fire Kineticist by using Extract Elements, and the Water Kineticist by using Water Impulses which count as spells.
But a Wood/Air Kineticist is still going to have a hard time against a Brass Bastion.
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While the Metal kineticist will be fine and the fire kineticist was already fine, the wood, water, air, earth, and any other kineticists they may add latter are not fine. Better, but still very much not fine.
As written now, these kineticists can't do anything to a golem unless they have the right element. Golem anti-magic makes them 100% immune to all impulses, even if you are doing physical damage. At least with the Bastion setup, you can at least try to muscle through the resistance.
Brass Bastion is level 14 creature. Even in a level +4 fight, your level 10 kineticist is dealing at least 3d6+5 (average 12.5) with a ranged blast. They can do 3d8+9 (avg 22) with a two action melee blast. So you can at least do something.
And that is just with the standard blast. There are plenty of impulses can get you even higher damage. Elemental Artillery and Lightning Dash will each do 4d12 (avg 26), shard strike does 5d6 (avg 17.5), etc.
This also avoids all the weird corner cases where we have to decide if the golem can see through a darkness spell, or can walk through a wall of force, etc.
One curious thing that I notice about Brass Bastion is that its Spell Resistance is not about an energy type but a trait. It has resistance to spells except Water (what makes the Water Kineticists shine vs them).
I don't doubt that many new golems are build around this. Instead they have a resistance vs a dmg type their spells resistance are ignored by some specific spell traits.
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Before the remaster, Golems (and Will-o-Wisps) were serious problems to Kineticists, but at least we knew they would be remastered. But if Paizo goes the same way than the Brass Bastion for Golems then Kineticist is forever screwed.Brass Bastion is a L14 critter. Kineticists pick up additional gates at level 5, 9, and 13. While it is certainly possible to hyperspecialize, that's a choice. The class chassis is not the thing screwing you; it provided you ample opportunities to expand out the number of different damage types you can use.
So while a particular bastion may be nigh-impossible for a particular kineticist to harm, the set of "kineticists" should deal with the set of "bastions" about as well as any other class dealing with such an immune- and resistance- loaded monster. Just as with casters, we should not assume Schroedinger's kineticist who always has every element. But we should also not assume that they are all 1-2 element limited.The existence of such critters certainly does speak to party strategy though. You probably want your casters and kineticists to not specialize all in the same damage types. If the groups thinks bastions and similar monsters are going to be a significant campaign thing, then 'you cover X, I'll cover Y' is probably a good player to player conversation to have. And kineticists may have a current advantage there, simply because Wood and Metal have a full panoply of abilities, while for casters those elements "recently returned" means there aren't a huge number of spells (Wood: 26. Metal: 22. vs. Water 54, Fire: 73. You get the idea).
Casters have it easier because they can use any spell on their list thanks to scrolls, whatever its traits.
Kineticists can only, with a feat, cast spells from scrolls that match the traits they already have ...
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Yeah, but if you compare where Kineticists were vs Golems as opposed to bastions, they are in so much better shape against the remastered Bastion.
In order for a Kineticist to have nothing to do against a Bastion, they have to be incapable of doing enough damage to meaningfully overcome resistance, they have to not have an ability with a relevant damage type or trait, and they have to have no impulses that are useful beyond doing damage. Compared to Golem anti-magic which has one good damage type for doing damage, one damage type that will slow, and then nothing else the Kineticist can do is useful, because all impulses are spells and no spells have any affect on Golem anti-magic.
Personally, I think this is a very reasonable way of having creatures that still have resistances enough to matter, but not making it a locking picking encounter that essentially has 1 key to unlock.
I mean, unprepared martials are in worse shape than the vast majority of Kineticists against a bastion.
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Kineticists are basically now on the same footing as martials and everyone else against these things. Arguably, they're better off. An adamantine weapon is an 11th level item that costs Up to 1680 gp. That's more than a greater striking weapon, and nobody is going to delay purchasing greater striking for such a niche use. And once you've put the greater striking rune on, it will cost you even more to get an adamantine weapon later. Unless they find an adamantine weapon (and don't sell it) most martials won't have one. Everyone's gonna need to punch through that resistance.
Casters are in a better position since they have the most options (and therefore highest odds of having the winning ticket punched) and strong, single target spells concentrate their damage into one hit, where martials may be losing damage to resistance multiple times a turn. Though divine casters who've grown reliant on spirit damage are gonna sulk.
Agreed; although a rules headache, some of the principles of the old golem antimagic were cool.
Many a PC got excited when they realized they could do the damage of a top level spell slot using a cantrip, if they hit the right damage type.
And the ability to slow one made the wizard player shine, after they got the RK.Now by targeting the golem's "weakness" they can be exactly as effective as they would normally be expected to be.
Also because damage was overridden my players were especially excited when they realised they could do top tier damage but on a successful basic save.
It is a big part of why golems were fun for casters at my table. The rogue pulling out a dragon's breath potion for a stone golem was a highlight for the rogue too.
This wasn't our experience at all. Being able to fly out of the reach of a host of clay and stone golems, pelting them with ray of frost until they fell to pieces made them into an absolute joke. They were less of a threat than a level -4 creature, despite their higher level. It was like spoon feeding the heroes XP. One of the most anticlimactic encounters we've ever had in PF2e for GM and players both.
I will not miss golem antimagic as written one bit. It was a broken mechanic six ways from Sunday.
I don't think this will change as much as you'd think. There's no indicators that constructs won't still mostly be mindless, pre-programmed automatons. It might take longer, but you'll likely still be able to cheese them under the right conditions. And I suppose that's a lot of what I liked about golem fights. I like a little know how trivializing the occasional fight. There's still plenty of room for nail biting slug outs.
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Yeah, but if you compare where Kineticists were vs Golems as opposed to bastions, they are in so much better shape against the remastered Bastion.
Yeah, that is very true.
Worst case it ends up being about the same as a Fencer Swashbuckler with a rapier going up against an Amoeba Swarm - mindless, immune to precision damage, and resists piercing damage.
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Yeah, but if you compare where Kineticists were vs Golems as opposed to bastions, they are in so much better shape against the remastered Bastion.Yeah, that is very true.
Worst case it ends up being about the same as a Fencer Swashbuckler with a rapier going up against an Amoeba Swarm - mindless, immune to precision damage, and resists piercing damage.
IME Amoeba Swarm are less common than golems in adventures.
And a Swashbuckler can buy another weapon or hit with their fists.
A Kineticist cannot buy an element they do not have. They only get those through Gate's Threshold at very specific levels and cannot change them willy nilly.
Also no one said Kineticists are worse against bastions than they were against golems. Just that they are still in a pretty bad place.
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Yeah, but if you compare where Kineticists were vs Golems as opposed to bastions, they are in so much better shape against the remastered Bastion.
Hard disagree, it's a wash.
Before, there was one element where the Kineticist was obliterating the golem in a couple of rounds by doing 3-4 times per round high automatic damage. And one element that was slowing the Golem with no save (so a very strong effect).Now, they have one element that does normal damage, maybe a bit more options to deal normal damage if the Golem has the right trait, a resistance so high that it cancels most of your damage on other elements and the ability to use your non damage Impulses which are... very few (there's Winter Sleet, still).
So you went from: With the right element you are blasting the hell out of Golems but otherwise you are completely useless
to: With the right elements you can affect Golems but otherwise you are rather useless.
It doesn't look like any progress at all.
Again, this feels like a really weird case to complain about the kineticist being useless when literally every martial has been dealing with this same level of resistance since day 1.
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Again, this feels like a really weird case to complain about the kineticist being useless when literally every martial has been dealing with this same level of resistance since day 1.
Martials have tools to go through it. Power attack, double slice, runes, energy mutagen, etc. Kineticist throws out a 2-3 action impulse, gets saved against, and might do absolutely nothing. Honestly that's really miserable when the martial at least can still be buffed to try and land crits while mindless constructs just blank most math debuffs that aren't specifically set to target them.
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Again, this feels like a really weird case to complain about the kineticist being useless when literally every martial has been dealing with this same level of resistance since day 1.
Same level of resistance in value, not in impact.
At level 14, Elemental Blast does 4d8 damage for an average of 17. So the Golem blocks 80% of its damage. Most damage impulses cost 2 actions and have half damage on a successful save. If I count 1d8 damage per 2 levels (which is quite average in terms of progression), at level 14 you deal 7d8 damage=31.5 average damage. On a successful save, the Golem takes roughly nothing, otherwise it blocks half of the damage. If I combine an EB and a 2-action Impulse, the Golem blocks 70% of the Kineticist damage. And I don't count damaging auras that are very interesting in general and completely blocked by the Golem Resistance.
Meanwhile, a basic d10 Fighter of that level deals 3d10+5+4+2d6=32.5 damage. The Golem doesn't even block half of the Fighter damage. And I'm not counting any ability like Power Attack specifically designed to go through Resistances or like Double Slice that can combine damage.
There are some martials that are crippled by such resistances (typically the Flurry Ranger, but most archers, too) and that I call out when asked. But your normal Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue/Swashbuckler/whatever can strike through the resistance and still deal acceptable damage... unlike the Kineticist.
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I ran a flesh golem fight in PFS a few months back for a party that included two kineticists. The fight very quickly turned into the party twiddling their thumbs waiting for the fighter to kill the flesh golem. (One kineticist was able to slow the flesh golem, which lasted for 10 rounds so couldn't even contribute further by maintaining the slow.)
If they had fought the thread's proposed flesh bastion, the two kineticists being able to actually use their abilities may not have contributed as much damage as the fighter, but it definitely would have made it a more enjoyable fight for them since they could do something. So this is an improvement in my book.
You just compared a kineticst impulse damage when save is made to a fighter who hit. That's apples to oranges. If you compare "attack succeeds" to "save fails" like you should, then both the kineticist using a big impulse and the fighter using maxed weaponry can be expected to do about 30s-something hits.
To build off this, a Brass Bastion has a high AC, but a low reflex and a terrible will save.
Your level 14 Fighter is hitting on a 6, all other martials, including the kineticist, on an 8. Your reflex save impulses have a DC of 33, means the bastion fails 50% of the time.
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So this is where you want to do 2a
No, really, you don't. You never want to do 2-action EB as it is just plain bad. You want to use your 2 actions for an actually damaging Impulse, not one that will not even deal the equivalent of a martial attack.
You just compared a kineticst impulse damage when save is made to a fighter who hit.
No, I compared an Impulse damage when save is failed and when save is succeeded (because it will happen half of the time roughly) to a Fighter who hit (because when the Fighter misses the Bastion Resistance is not really applicable). The Fighter loses roughly half of its damage, the Kineticist 2/3rd of its damage.
Also, the Fighter is very far from a high damaging class. Barbarians, Rogues, Swashbucklers, Inventor, Investigators, Precision Rangers, Thaumaturge and Magus are all dealing more damage per attack than the Fighter.If the kineticist is getting in one good save-based shot per round, they are likely getting in damage comparable to other AoE-focused PCs.
AoE-focused PCs? You mean other Kineticists? Because casters are much more than "AoE-focused PCs". Casters have a lot of spells so they can switch entirely from damage to something else. The Kineticist has very few such spells (you bring Timber Sentinel as if it was an Impulse among many, it's actually the one true support Impulse of the Kineticist, the others tend to be more circumstantial or less impactful).
I stick to my position. At level 14, I agree that a Kineticist should have enough freedom to stay relevant. But this discussion was taking the Bastion as an example of new Golem design, not as the sole Golem you'll ever face. And if it's the new Golem design, then you'll face a lot of Golems also before level 10 without having so many support Impulses or damage choice or buffs. And these fights will be tough. Meanwhile, the martials will stay more relevant and casters should also stay quite relevant (even if they have been hit by the new design, at first glance).
Also, the Fighter is very far from a high damaging class. Barbarians, Rogues, Swashbucklers, Inventor, Investigators, Precision Rangers, Thaumaturge and Magus are all dealing more damage per attack than the Fighter.
The impression I get is that Fighter is high-accuracy -> which leads to more crits which are high damage.
And for several of those listed classes, the small amount of precision damage that they could potentially do isn't going to be all that much more effective at overcoming resistances than Power Attack. Assuming that the enemy isn't immune to precision damage entirely. Edit: And assuming that the Fighter has Power Attack since that is opt-in via feat.
I stick to my position. At level 14, I agree that a Kineticist should have enough freedom to stay relevant. But this discussion was taking the Bastion as an example of new Golem design, not as the sole Golem you'll ever face. And if it's the new Golem design, then you'll face a lot of Golems also before level 10 without having so many support Impulses or damage choice or buffs. And these fights will be tough.
I do think that is a fair assessment. At least until we actually see it in play.
Kineticist vs Bastion isn't worse than other class vs particular enemy type matchups that we could present, but it is one of the matchups that would qualify for the list.
Kineticist vs Golem probably was worse than most.
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My biggest problem with Golem antimagic is that it felt like a mechanic for a different system super imposed over PF2. It doesn’t interact at all with 4 degrees of success, just targeting the creature was enough to trigger everything, and how many adventure designers could really be expected to know how difficult some golems would be for some parties at certain levels based upon whether strong magical options were available at those levels? Golems were overly complex puzzle encounters that nearly remove the D20 from determining the outcome of the encounter. Even worse, they removed all other tactical magic use as well because of how poorly the limits of what being unaffected by spells were defined.
At lower levels, bastion resistance is going to be 10, or 5, or even lower for level -1 to 1 types, which we might reasonably see in the future of the game. I hope we see some with creative weaknesses (either direct weaknesses or abilities that can be overcome). I hope we can get more into the lore of them in PF2 remastered as well to create new stories divergent from “it’s a D&D golem with the serial number filed off,” and I think bringing them back closer to PF2 mechanics will help do that.
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My biggest problem with Golems is that Golem Anti-magic is so vague. Do weapon runes work? They're magic? Does your frost rune trigger the GA weakness? What about alchemical? What does it mean for them to be immune to spells that create an effect without a save? Is the golem immune to the hole in the ground? Can they see through all magical fog since the fog is affecting the light in the room and not the golem itself? What does "targeted by" mean? Do I have to roll to hit? Does the golem get a save to see if it crit succeeds (i.e. is unaffected?
All these issues go out the window with the Bastion. My options with a golem are either spamming my Ray of Frost to cheese the encounter or ripping my hair out because I didn't pick it. Now I actually have to use my rank 6 and 7 spells against the level 14 creature. I don't know about you but spamming cantrips isn't really why I choose high level play.
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Again, this feels like a really weird case to complain about the kineticist being useless when literally every martial has been dealing with this same level of resistance since day 1.Same level of resistance in value, not in impact.
At level 14, Elemental Blast does 4d8 damage for an average of 17. So the Golem blocks 80% of its damage. Most damage impulses cost 2 actions and have half damage on a successful save. If I count 1d8 damage per 2 levels (which is quite average in terms of progression), at level 14 you deal 7d8 damage=31.5 average damage. On a successful save, the Golem takes roughly nothing, otherwise it blocks half of the damage. If I combine an EB and a 2-action Impulse, the Golem blocks 70% of the Kineticist damage. And I don't count damaging auras that are very interesting in general and completely blocked by the Golem Resistance.
Meanwhile, a basic d10 Fighter of that level deals 3d10+5+4+2d6=32.5 damage. The Golem doesn't even block half of the Fighter damage. And I'm not counting any ability like Power Attack specifically designed to go through Resistances or like Double Slice that can combine damage.
There are some martials that are crippled by such resistances (typically the Flurry Ranger, but most archers, too) and that I call out when asked. But your normal Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue/Swashbuckler/whatever can strike through the resistance and still deal acceptable damage... unlike the Kineticist.
The precision martials can have some problems as some adventures are full of incorporeal and oozes and are straight immune to precision damage. If you combine a bit of resistance with that it is very effective defence.