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So since I’ve recently come off of watching Arcane and reading through Outlaws of Alkenstar (still holding out for a Numeria based campaign in 2e), I’d like to discuss the Alkenstar of 2e, since Outlaws of Alkenstar was our first firsthand view of the place in this edition since like one module in 1e.
To be honest, it’s really disappointing to see that they decided to emphasize the “”Bronze Dead Redemption/cowboys with flintlocks”” thing, instead of really focusing on the steampunk/ pulp-weird tech elements.
Maybe this is just a case of a tremendously good portrayal of something being compared to a merely ok portrayal of something, but every time I look at the worldbuilding and ambience of Piltover/Zaun in Arcane and compare it to Skyside/Smokeside of Alkenstar the latter winds up looking like a poor imitation.
Having said that, I believe a great deal of things could be fixed by giving up the weird obsession with flintlock muzzle-loaders that Pathfinder seems to have and replacing them with simple mechanical revolvers and rifles, and more exotic things like maybe the Golarion/Mana Wastes version of thasteron-powered guns (would add subplots for mining that stuff as well).
A new dedicated clockwork automaton ancestry like Golarion’s version of the warforged would help the flavor as well. Lean into the mad science subplot opportunities (possible interplanetary/interplanar adventures might happen here). And depending on personal preference, maybe replace some of the dusty streets with neon lights?
What are your thoughts on this?
ps: the fact that the main plot character of OoA seems to disappear after book 1 and how the overarching plot about “”pyronite”” simply doesn’t seem to be enough of a high stakes enough plot (and that any mention of the stuff vanishes completely after the AP ends) doesn’t help anything
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I think the reason it has more of a western cowboyesque feel over 1st Edition's steampunk vibe is because game developers don't like doing the same thing twice. Redundancy in theme is boring and doesn't sell as well.
Another issue is the fact that you're comparing it to Arcane, one of the most cinematically stunning works of art to be released in over a decade. That is a VERY high comparative bar. Not much is going to have the awesome, cool, gravitas that Arcane has. Most things will pale in comparison.
However, that doesn't mean Paizo and other developers can't strive for such a high ideal in interest and quality, but even in doing so they are going to want to keep their identity unique and not simply copy what others are doing (because, again, redundancy is boring and doesn't sell well).
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I think the first thing you have to do is separate two pieces of media from each other by quite a fair margin to give either one of them a fair shake. I think it would be pretty disingenuous to compare Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes to League of Legend's (or, more accurately, Arcane's) Piltover. While there are some surface-level similarities, like reconciling tech's existance in fantasy worlds, they have very different worlds they inhabit, roles to play, and history.
Alkenstar has to reside in a something of a living shared world which makes it somewhat difficult to throw a lot of rules out the window on a system-wide scale. Now, that's not to say that you can't just do your own thing in home games, but as more math-inclined people than I have pointed out, revolvers in PF2 would either unbalance things or be so weak as to not fulfill that fantasy that those clamoring for them would want.
Also, are automaton's not to your liking when it comes to "warforged-esque" ancestry? It always felt like a bit of a bone thrown to the warforged crowd.
Like, I suppose what I'm saying is, a lot of what your asking is just a difference in perspective. If you want to tell a story of Alkenstar where there's neon lights and mutagenic drugs running rampant, your world can have that. You can even just take Outlaws of Alkenstar and tell the story in that way. But it does seem that's not where the writers are heading with the area.
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I think the reason it has more of a western cowboyesque feel over 1st Edition's steampunk vibe is because game developers don't like doing the same thing twice. Redundancy in theme is boring and doesn't sell as well.
Another issue is the fact that you're comparing it to Arcane, one of the most cinematically stunning works of art to be released in over a decade. That is a VERY high comparative bar. Not much is going to have the awesome, cool, gravitas that Arcane has. Most things will pale in comparison.
However, that doesn't mean Paizo and other developers can't strive for such a high ideal in interest and quality, but even in doing so they are going to want to keep their identity unique and not simply copy what others are doing (because, again, redundancy is boring and doesn't sell well).
Yeah lol I guess most of it is just a case of ""something amazing compared to something ok"". I mostly just brought it up since I've seen some players I know be disappointed about this.
Having said that, I still really wish that the weird flintlocks-only thing gets discarded, and that the theming gets changed a bit.
Alkenstar has to reside in a something of a living shared world which makes it somewhat difficult to throw a lot of rules out the window on a system-wide scale. Now, that's not to say that you can't just do your own thing in home games, but as more math-inclined people than I have pointed out, revolvers in PF2 would either unbalance things or be so weak as to not fulfill that fantasy that those clamoring for them would want.Also, are automaton's not to your liking when it comes to "warforged-esque" ancestry? It always felt like a bit of a bone thrown to the warforged crowd.
Like, I suppose what I'm saying is, a lot of what your asking is just a difference in perspective. If you want to tell a story of Alkenstar where there's neon lights and mutagenic drugs running rampant, your world can have that. You can even just take Outlaws of Alkenstar and tell the story in that way. But it does seem that's not where the writers are heading with the area.
I would argue that the LoL world is no less ""living and shared"" than the Paizo world is.
Automatons have this weird baggage to a really obscure part of Golarion lore that I feel ultimately makes them even less accessible than the actual literal androids on the world. Tying them more to Alkenstar would give it something that makes it stand out; in fact I recall a great deal of 3.X Eberron material had small tips on how to include Warforged in other settings.
Oh sure. Again, I'm not saying that all Alkenstar stuff is bad. I just wish that, what with the Inventor class and Alchemist class and other pulp stuff being a thing, that at the very least the weird ""flintlock-only"" stuff gets discarded.
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So since I’ve recently come off of watching Arcane and reading through Outlaws of Alkenstar (still holding out for a Numeria based campaign in 2e), I’d like to discuss the Alkenstar of 2e, since Outlaws of Alkenstar was our first firsthand view of the place in this edition since like one module in 1e.To be honest, it’s really disappointing to see that they decided to emphasize the “”Bronze Dead Redemption/cowboys with flintlocks”” thing, instead of really focusing on the steampunk/ pulp-weird tech elements.
Maybe this is just a case of a tremendously good portrayal of something being compared to a merely ok portrayal of something, but every time I look at the worldbuilding and ambience of Piltover/Zaun in Arcane and compare it to Skyside/Smokeside of Alkenstar the latter winds up looking like a poor imitation.
Having said that, I believe a great deal of things could be fixed by giving up the weird obsession with flintlock muzzle-loaders that Pathfinder seems to have and replacing them with simple mechanical revolvers and rifles, and more exotic things like maybe the Golarion/Mana Wastes version of thasteron-powered guns (would add subplots for mining that stuff as well).
A new dedicated clockwork automaton ancestry like Golarion’s version of the warforged would help the flavor as well. Lean into the mad science subplot opportunities (possible interplanetary/interplanar adventures might happen here). And depending on personal preference, maybe replace some of the dusty streets with neon lights?
What are your thoughts on this?
ps: the fact that the main plot character of OoA seems to disappear after book 1 and how the overarching plot about “”pyronite”” simply doesn’t seem to be enough of a high stakes enough plot (and that any mention of the stuff vanishes completely after the AP ends) doesn’t help anything
Personally I think the theme of mad science is a bit more Ustalav than it is Alkenstar.
Having said that, I still really wish that the weird flintlocks-only thing gets discarded, and that the theming gets changed a bit.
For more advanced technology to import into PF2 adventures such as Outlaws of Alkenstar, you may need to wait for Starfinder2e to become available. That should have plenty of high technology mechanics that can be re-themed to steampunk non-flintlock weapons and equipment.
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Having said that, I still really wish that the weird flintlocks-only thing gets discarded, and that the theming gets changed a bit.For more advanced technology to import into PF2 adventures such as Outlaws of Alkenstar, you may need to wait for Starfinder2e to become available. That should have plenty of high technology mechanics that can be re-themed to steampunk non-flintlock weapons and equipment.
Point being, it would be really easy to introduce revolvers and the whole Red Dead armory now already. Complaints about ""deadliness"" really hold no water considering how high pulp fantasy Golarion already is.
Personally I think the theme of mad science is a bit more Ustalav than it is Alkenstar.
So since I’ve recently come off of watching Arcane and reading through Outlaws of Alkenstar (still holding out for a Numeria based campaign in 2e), I’d like to discuss the Alkenstar of 2e, since Outlaws of Alkenstar was our first firsthand view of the place in this edition since like one module in 1e.To be honest, it’s really disappointing to see that they decided to emphasize the “”Bronze Dead Redemption/cowboys with flintlocks”” thing, instead of really focusing on the steampunk/ pulp-weird tech elements.
Maybe this is just a case of a tremendously good portrayal of something being compared to a merely ok portrayal of something, but every time I look at the worldbuilding and ambience of Piltover/Zaun in Arcane and compare it to Skyside/Smokeside of Alkenstar the latter winds up looking like a poor imitation.
Having said that, I believe a great deal of things could be fixed by giving up the weird obsession with flintlock muzzle-loaders that Pathfinder seems to have and replacing them with simple mechanical revolvers and rifles, and more exotic things like maybe the Golarion/Mana Wastes version of thasteron-powered guns (would add subplots for mining that stuff as well).
A new dedicated clockwork automaton ancestry like Golarion’s version of the warforged would help the flavor as well. Lean into the mad science subplot opportunities (possible interplanetary/interplanar adventures might happen here). And depending on personal preference, maybe replace some of the dusty streets with neon lights?
What are your thoughts on this?
ps: the fact that the main plot character of OoA seems to disappear after book 1 and how the overarching plot about “”pyronite”” simply doesn’t seem to be enough of a high stakes enough plot (and that any mention of the stuff vanishes completely after the AP ends) doesn’t help anything
Honestly that's literally only one trope. Ustalav's ""mad science"" bit is greatly outshadowed by the ""undead everywhere"" bit. That trope fits Alkenstar more tbh.
Point being, it would be really easy to introduce revolvers and the whole Red Dead armory now already. Complaints about ""deadliness"" really hold no water considering how high pulp fantasy Golarion already is.Having said that, I still really wish that the weird flintlocks-only thing gets discarded, and that the theming gets changed a bit.For more advanced technology to import into PF2 adventures such as Outlaws of Alkenstar, you may need to wait for Starfinder2e to become available. That should have plenty of high technology mechanics that can be re-themed to steampunk non-flintlock weapons and equipment.
My point being that such things are most likely going to be added in Starfinder.
A revolver is basically a capacity weapon. And a semi-automatic pistol would be a repeating weapon. So the mechanics are already there. We just don't have published weapons that use them (without also having some significant drawbacks) because they would outshine the various bows, crossbows, and flintlock firearms that the setting is built with.
So if you want to homebrew steampunk firearms with more power, you can do that. If you want published weapons that already have that level of power, look to Starfinder2e when it arrives and re-skin.
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Point being, it would be really easy to introduce revolvers and the whole Red Dead armory now already. Complaints about ""deadliness"" really hold no water considering how high pulp fantasy Golarion already is.Having said that, I still really wish that the weird flintlocks-only thing gets discarded, and that the theming gets changed a bit.For more advanced technology to import into PF2 adventures such as Outlaws of Alkenstar, you may need to wait for Starfinder2e to become available. That should have plenty of high technology mechanics that can be re-themed to steampunk non-flintlock weapons and equipment.My point being that such things are most likely going to be added in Starfinder.
A revolver is basically a capacity weapon. And a semi-automatic pistol would be a repeating weapon. So the mechanics are already there. We just don't have published weapons that use them (without also having some significant drawbacks) because they would outshine the various bows, crossbows, and flintlock firearms that the setting is built with.
So if you want to homebrew steampunk firearms with more power, you can do that. If you want published weapons that already have that level of power, look to Starfinder2e when it arrives and re-skin.
It's mostly a flavor complaint about the flintlock stuff at this point.
Having said that I don't think using the idea of anything ""outshining"" or ""obsoleting"" anything really matters in a setting like Golarion, especially not with the more Wild West stuff.
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I think you'd have a much easier time getting a feel of things and how they work when comparing Alkenstar against the Trigun world setting than doing so against the League of Legends world/setting, shoot, it has been listed as a direct inspiration for Pathfinder and the region specifically while LoL didn't even exist as a thing at all when PF1 released, let alone when the majority of the work on the setting was first cooked up in the mind and tables of the authors who created it.
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Just off of my memory of book 1 of the adventure path I remember a barhop with robo tinkerer hands, robot bank guards, a crashed blimp with a literal machine spirit (40k style), a diesel looking crane in a junkyard fool of scrapped steampunk inventions) and a mass production style brewery with magitech refrigeration units. Outlaws of alkenstar checked all the steampunk boxes in my eyes. All of that being couched in wild West chiq is what gives it a unique identity instead of being a derivative, posh, vaguely British steampunk like you see in many renditions (not Arcane though).
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Western steampunk? So, more like Back to the Future 3 or Wild Wild West then?
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The AP has lots of problems, from the map not fitting the descriptions, the plot hooks and the NPCs. Out of the 4 APs I've done so far this was the least enjoyable. That's saying a lot considering I played a Kobold inventor who started off styled like Wolfwood, carrying his mech around on his back until he could ride it, then he rode his dragon tank everywhere, was very fun.
You find lots of broken steam punk automatons, fight several different types of them from guard bots to ale servers. So I think there's lots of steam punk inspired stuff around. The big disconnect is likely how the map looks rather plain and many of the descriptions of places don't make sense on the map and don't give the feel of crazy inventions and unique things that can only be found here.
On the topic of weapons, you aren't going to get things that operate different then what we have. You can re-flavor them to be lever action or revolver like, but the mechanics are there to keep them balanced, that's one of the core principles of PF2e.
Outlaws of Alkenstar might be the 2e AP I've enjoyed reading the least, and trying to run it broke a friend of mine on running PF2. It's a real shame.
On the plus side, the Deadshot Lands have a more fun palette anyway :p
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Just off of my memory of book 1 of the adventure path I remember a barhop with robo tinkerer hands, robot bank guards, a crashed blimp with a literal machine spirit (40k style), a diesel looking crane in a junkyard fool of scrapped steampunk inventions) and a mass production style brewery with magitech refrigeration units. Outlaws of alkenstar checked all the steampunk boxes in my eyes. All of that being couched in wild West chiq is what gives it a unique identity instead of being a derivative, posh, vaguely British steampunk like you see in many renditions (not Arcane though).
To be honest, it’s precisely because all those things are included that the default setting (especially the flintlock obsession*) feels awkward and disjointed. The design requirements of a simple mechanical revolver a la the Colt SAA or Nagant M1895 pale when compared to what would be necessary for literally any of those examples (at least, the non-mystical ones). Everything looking drab and dusty is a flavor complaint on top of that.
To talk about a potentially more story relevant point, there’s still the fact that pyronite is hyped up a bunch in the story yet utterly ceases to be a relevant point after OoA concludes.
*I may as well note that irl there were two whole stages of firearms development (the matchlock and the wheellock) before the flintlock even existed that Paizo seems to have forgotten about
A lot of MacGuffins for APs don't extend beyond the APs, and are usually created for the purposes of the AP and aren't mentioned elsewhere - unless they result in world changes, and even then a lot of the 1E world state changes didn't occur until 2E came out. Pyronite is really no different.
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There's also the slightly odd thing that whilst Alkenstar has always been "Wild West meets Steampunk", Outlaws of Alkenstar goes hard into the Wild West element whilst its depiction in Lost Omens: Impossible Lands is much more on the Victorian England Steampunk aesthetic; so if that's what you prefer I might suggest checking that book.
That said, Piltover / Zaun it is not, and really a lot of the slightly magi-tech stuff doesn't really fit the aesthetics it is going for; even if you personally prefer a different aesthetic, it's unfair to evaluate a location on how well it achieves that aesthetic when it's going for something else entirely.
Probably the closer to what you're after in-universe are as others have mentioned Ustalav, the Deadshot Lands, or parts of Nex like Oenopion. Though unfortunately none of those are quite perfectly what you're after. Ustalav is aiming to be a "Gothic Horror Land" and thus whilst might do similar things, depicts them in a different way and the Deadshot Lands (as well as currently still being somewhat lite on actual details) whilst having the magi-tech weaponry isn't going for that whole inequality vibe.
Oenopion (and to a lesser extent other Nexian cities, they all express similar goals in very different ways so worth a check) is probably your best bet, going for that very inequality-heavy magipunk aesthetic with amazing architecture and technology (being the Inner Sea's single biggest producer of alchemical goods) even Piltover & Zaun's whole "it looks amazing but just down from where all the awesome infrastructure there is areas filled with frequent murders" + revolutionary sentiments. The main thing it is missing is the firearms, but given Alkenstar is just one nation over it's not unrealistic for that tech to get over here and maybe even be adapted for a more alchemical style.
snip
Yeah tbh I think the latter view is much better than what we actually got.
To note, a great deal of the reason I began this thread (beyond my own observations) was because literally every player who read the player's guide asked me ""so this is gonna be like Arcane, right?"" lol
Having said that, I agree that the tone of Alkenstar is different from that. And having said that, I'm still getting rid of the flintlock junk and putting in things like revolvers and rules for clockwork prosthetics.
snipYeah tbh I think the latter view is much better than what we actually got.
To note, a great deal of the reason I began this thread (beyond my own observations) was because literally every player who read the player's guide asked me ""so this is gonna be like Arcane, right?"" lol
Having said that, I agree that the tone of Alkenstar is different from that. And having said that, I'm still getting rid of the flintlock junk and putting in things like revolvers and rules for clockwork prosthetics.
The sterling dynamo archetype pretty much has the rules for clockwork prosthetics covered.
I will say never felt like Alkenstar gave off Arcane vibes but do feel the mechanics of the game (Gunslinger, Inventor and Fire arms stuff like that) don't really back up what it is trying to go for that well
Yeah for me I forget that Pf2e already has a lot of pulp stuff in it lol.
Having said that, I really, truly think the worst part of the dissonance is the flintlock stuff. For something like a simple mechanical revolver to be excluded when the Inventor exists is nonsensical. Heck, just make up some kind of alchemical cartridge thing for more exotic stuff and the whole problem is solved.
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And the rules for prosthetics pretty much have the rules for prosthetics covered, too.The sterling dynamo archetype pretty much has the rules for clockwork prosthetics covered.snipYeah tbh I think the latter view is much better than what we actually got.
To note, a great deal of the reason I began this thread (beyond my own observations) was because literally every player who read the player's guide asked me ""so this is gonna be like Arcane, right?"" lol
Having said that, I agree that the tone of Alkenstar is different from that. And having said that, I'm still getting rid of the flintlock junk and putting in things like revolvers and rules for clockwork prosthetics.
Yep, there's a whole range of Assistive Devices from Mobility Aids, Hearing Aids and Vision Assistance to Animal Companion Mobility aids, Canes and Crutches and Prostheses...
Having said that, I really, truly think the worst part of the dissonance is the flintlock stuff. For something like a simple mechanical revolver to be excluded when the Inventor exists is nonsensical. Heck, just make up some kind of alchemical cartridge thing for more exotic stuff and the whole problem is solved.
I think to understand why you have to look at the development history of Golarion and understand it is because there was a combo of some people really hating firearms in their fantasy & that mechanically advanced firearms (which is what 1e called revolvers, shotguns, etc) completely made other weapons obsolete due to the mechanics of that system. So when they finally made their way to their first Alkenstar Module (IIRC Wardens Of The Forge was in '13, which was 2 years after Ultimate Combat introduced firearms in '11 as a mechanic) I think the above backlash informed them on what people would accept and settled on "early" firearms for the setting to lean closer to the fantasy elements of their world and leave more advanced stuff in their setting for Numeria or something.
However, as folks have put out up thread you will definitely see a more modern firearm around at some point either in a future AP (mechanically it shouldn't be much more than an Air Repeater with a bigger die or Lethal) or with 2e Starfinder if you just want the mechanics. Otherwise, try to look on the upside that Golarion is wide enough that it still has stuff like this rather than being just traditional fantasy!
Having said that, I really, truly think the worst part of the dissonance is the flintlock stuff. For something like a simple mechanical revolver to be excluded when the Inventor exists is nonsensical. Heck, just make up some kind of alchemical cartridge thing for more exotic stuff and the whole problem is solved.I think to understand why you have to look at the development history of Golarion and understand it is because there was a combo of some people really hating firearms in their fantasy & that mechanically advanced firearms (which is what 1e called revolvers, shotguns, etc) completely made other weapons obsolete due to the mechanics of that system. So when they finally made their way to their first Alkenstar Module (IIRC Wardens Of The Forge was in '13, which was 2 years after Ultimate Combat introduced firearms in '11 as a mechanic) I think the above backlash informed them on what people would accept and settled on "early" firearms for the setting to lean closer to the fantasy elements of their world and leave more advanced stuff in their setting for Numeria or something.
However, as folks have put out up thread you will definitely see a more modern firearm around at some point either in a future AP (mechanically it shouldn't be much more than an Air Repeater with a bigger die or Lethal) or with 2e Starfinder if you just want the mechanics. Otherwise, try to look on the upside that Golarion is wide enough that it still has stuff like this rather than being just traditional fantasy!
Fwiw that's less the ""developmental history of Golarion"" than it is the bungling of firearms rules in 1e (the touch AC thing was awful).
Having said that I agree overall on what you think we are likely going to actually get.
I think they meant the (game) “development” of Golarion. Not technological (in game) development within canon Golarion.
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My group used Alkenstar extensively during our 1e campaigns and were really excited for our first foray into 2e to be a return to Alkenstar. As a whole, I think we've been largely disappointed with both the lack of advanced firearms in what's meant to be the firearm capital of world and what seems to be a total tonal change of Alkenstar from a city ravaged with permanent antimagic zones and a plucky reliance on "science over magic".
It doesn't even seem to match any other references on Alkenstar for that matter, which really begs the questions as to why it specifically was chosen to be watered down to be friendlier to new players.
The 2e firearms have largely been exceptionally disappointing and it feels like all the wrong lessons were learned from the debacle of touch attacks in 1e.
All around it seems like compromises were made so that nobody was satisfied. Guns are still in the world but they're somehow anachronistic to the clockwork and steampunk tech already flooding the setting.