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I'm really amused by the fact that Feronia used to be married to Dispater, a literal Archdevil, and when the relationship didn't work out they didn't have some horrible, plane-destroying fight about it, they just split up amicably and even still correspond occasionally. It's just funny when put in contrast with all the over-the-top theatrics that most gods engage in. Perhaps notably, Dispater was the only Archdevil to allow Lawful Neutral clerics...
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Desna, friendly happy butterfly lady of dreams and travelers and the stars. Some demon lord Aolar starts killing clerics of various gods and gets around to those of Desna, and she responds in her peaceful hippy way by fluttering down into the Abyss and ripping his face off.
At least one other god (Calistria, it's rumored) had to save her from dozens of angry demon lords, outraged that she thought she could just flutter down into their home and murder one of them!
I just love that she's close to the last god you'd expect to go defcon 5 on the Abyss, and yet, there she went!
Desna's definitely my favorite of the 'Big 20.'
Of the 'lesser' gods, I love that Sivanah seems to be fueling at least some of Razmir's pretense at divinity, by allowing his sorcerer and wizard 'priests' to use shadow conjuration to cast curing spells (at least, back in 1st edition, I have no idea if that is now decanonized...). The notion that an actual god (of trickery and deception!) is secretly helping some mortal pretend to be a god, amuses me. And her, no doubt. And if he succeeds in actually becoming a real god, that will likely amuse her as much as his inevitable failure will...
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Not really deity "lore" but rather 'dogma' or 'ritual' -- it's from one of the Pathfinder novels (I can't remember for sure but I *think* Prince of Wolves) -- there is a religious ceremony of Pharasma that really just richly encapsulates her followers:
A narrow line of priests of Pharasma, wearing only robes, somberly walk each with a lit candle toward a calm pool of water. One by one the procession of disciples step into the pool and continue a slow stride until the calm waters rise to waist, chest, and above their head, extinguishing the candles one by one. Then, at the end of the pool, the first priest's head emerges as he continues to walk out, then his chest and his upheld candle reemerge, then his waist, and he exits the pool. And his candle reignites, bestowing its small light, as the other holy people of Pharasma exit the pool behind him, in line, with their candles also reigniting one by one.
The crafting of the literature is well done, the poetic artistry. But it's the symbolism of the birth and death and circle of life, even an interpretation of the 'water' of the mother's womb, and the peaceful beauty of the ritual.
Whatever, I really enjoyed reading that paragraph from whichever Pathfinder novel it was. And since details from the 'Pathfinder Tales' line are a little more obscure, I thought this would be a good Thread to throw it out there as my favorite bit of "Deity Lore."
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Casandalee was a memory back-up of a dead Android before becoming a goddess. Her cult now has the official backing of Kevoth-Kul, immortal ruler of Numeria and aspiring emperor of the Kellid people, who granted safe harbor to all Androids in his court.
Techno-barbarian stuff gets me.
Desna is the reason why the evil gods/demigods don't f@$* with chaotic good half as much as they f$%! with lawfull good. Against Torag or Iomedea, you can order your pawns to murder their pawns, and you can be pretty certain that their retribution will target your pawns, not yourself (but since you're evil, you don't care, they're expendable). They value the stability of the "cold" war too much to risk an escalation of the conflict.
However, Desna don't care. If she feel like killing your pawns will only lead to you finding more pawns to kill her owns with, then she won't mind taking the next step and targetting you directly instead. And it turns out, your average demon lord/archdevil don't really want to risk facing an actual godess, so really, only actual gods actually risk outright antagonizing her.
My personal favorite lore tho is that grandmother spider has started to aggressively annoy, trick and prank pretty much every other gods except the ascended mortals (and Achaekek of course) back when she just broke out of her "role" and seized her independance. Specifically, I love the fact that even now that she's calmed down from her "impetuous youth" and stopped ceaselessly harassing the other gods, she antagonize Sarenrae, specifically because Sarenrae is trying to bury the hatchet, but grandma isn't willing to make peace.
I really like the whole "trickster god" archetype, but the fact that she is doing this as a long passive aggressive vengeance against every other god is incredibly funny to me. That her now old "wizened" self continue targeting the godess that keep bringing it up out of sheer pettiness show that she still haven't forgoten or forgiven anything, she's focussed on other things now, but the feud absolutely isn't over.
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Not really deity "lore" but rather 'dogma' or 'ritual' -- it's from one of the Pathfinder novels (I can't remember for sure but I *think* Prince of Wolves) -- there is a religious ceremony of Pharasma that really just richly encapsulates her followers:
A narrow line of priests of Pharasma, wearing only robes, somberly walk each with a lit candle toward a calm pool of water. One by one the procession of disciples step into the pool and continue a slow stride until the calm waters rise to waist, chest, and above their head, extinguishing the candles one by one. Then, at the end of the pool, the first priest's head emerges as he continues to walk out, then his chest and his upheld candle reemerge, then his waist, and he exits the pool. And his candle reignites, bestowing its small light, as the other holy people of Pharasma exit the pool behind him, in line, with their candles also reigniting one by one.
The crafting of the literature is well done, the poetic artistry. But it's the symbolism of the birth and death and circle of life, even an interpretation of the 'water' of the mother's womb, and the peaceful beauty of the ritual.
Whatever, I really enjoyed reading that paragraph from whichever Pathfinder novel it was. And since details from the 'Pathfinder Tales' line are a little more obscure, I thought this would be a good Thread to throw it out there as my favorite bit of "Deity Lore."
Ooh, I don't have my copy of Prince of Wolves at hand but isn't this the one where the procession are all wearing really thin black robes and when they emerge, the water makes their clothes translucent enough to see the bright colours they're wearing underneath?
Oh yes, for my own, one thing I've always been terribly fond of is that the goddess of love and beauty's favoured weapon is a glaive called the Whisperer of Souls that she stole from her brother and has been steadily un-corrupting its near-hundred souls to purify it.
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Religion doesn't work on Golarion the way it works on the Discworld: the power of the god does not relate to the size of the god's religion (plus, some religions are active on more than just Golarion). Dead gods and forgotten gods aren't the same thing.
Still, there are people on Golarion who think it does work this way. Or at least, if they can't kill a deity, the least they can do is kill followers of that deity and profane sacred spaces.
I played one antagonist whose motivation was an incorrect assumption that Iomedae murdered Aroden and took his place. So I looked around here for those bad faith, "Iomedae Is Actually Evil" takes and put them in his mouth. The PCs tried to bait him into fighting them on their terms by praising Iomedae while they were walking around (which mainly just alerted his minions to their presence).
The fact that, at least according to Osirion, Osiris, Set and Horus ruled humanity not on Earth but on Golarion, and that Set's murder of Osiris is what ushered in the Age of Darkness, rather than Earthfall. Even if it's an in-universe theodicy, it makes the world feel a little more lived-in to have conflicting accounts about established events - that the idea of a big meteor hitting a now-sunken continent is ONE explanation for why the world was shrouded in a catastrophic dust cloud and entered a nuclear winter, but might also have just been the symptom of a larger deific struggle between good and evil.
It also anchors these gods more to the world, making them feel a bit less transplanted (which, let's be honest, they are) in a way that would be difficult to do with Greek mythology. Mount Olympus is a real place, you can go there, many of Greek mythology's myths are tied to specific places like Aphrodite rising from the sea at Cyprus or Cythera or Apollo born on Delos and taking the Delphic Oracle. But being able to localise elements of Egyptian myth makes it feel a little more organic.
Desna, friendly happy butterfly lady of dreams and travelers and the stars. Some demon lord Aolar starts killing clerics of various gods and gets around to those of Desna, and she responds in her peaceful hippy way by fluttering down into the Abyss and ripping his face off.
At least one other god (Calistria, it's rumored) had to save her from dozens of angry demon lords, outraged that she thought she could just flutter down into their home and murder one of them!
I just love that she's close to the last god you'd expect to go defcon 5 on the Abyss, and yet, there she went!
Desna's definitely my favorite of the 'Big 20.'
Well it wasn't that she needed saving but rather that Calistria averted planar war by making sure the coalition of Demon lords turned on each other. Sarenrae and Shelyin also helped out. Would be cool to see those godesses take on the Abyss.
But yeah Desna is based. I liked that she just decided sometrhing needed to be done and did it. I am not sure why full Deities allow the Demon lords to act up.
But yeah Desna is based. I liked that she just decided sometrhing needed to be done and did it. I am not sure why full Deities allow the Demon lords to act up.
Because of the aforementioned barely averted planar wide god war that would cause, alongside the power vacuum that's left after the old demon lords die.
Because of the aforementioned barely averted planar wide god war that would cause, alongside the power vacuum that's left after the old demon lords die.
But yeah Desna is based. I liked that she just decided sometrhing needed to be done and did it. I am not sure why full Deities allow the Demon lords to act up.
Fully agreed on the divine mutually assured destruction pact, but I wonder what the actual negative fallout of a demonic power vacuum would be. Since demon lords don't exactly live on the material plane, the majority of the struggle should likely fall directly on either other demons or their own cultists, neither case of which is much cause to lose sleep over, and in the case of spillover, any innocents close enough to get caught in the crossfire were already close enough to be directly threatened by the demon lords' usual activities in the first place and so in no more danger than they were without a abyssal power struggle.
Another planar godswar, however, is definitely something to be avoided at all costs. Wait, what was the next book out titled again? Ah. Well. The universe was nice while it lasted.
Desna, friendly happy butterfly lady of dreams and travelers and the stars. Some demon lord Aolar starts killing clerics of various gods and gets around to those of Desna, and she responds in her peaceful hippy way by fluttering down into the Abyss and ripping his face off.
I'm a big fan of the theory that Desna is not REALLY butterfly lady, but an Outer God who had blended into the gods of Golarion. Given the way that she absolutely swings above her weight class.
For me, one of my favourite lore points is that Grandmother Spider is the younger sister of Achaekek. Grandmother Spider tries to get Achaekek to rebel against the other gods. Achaekek doesn't really do relationships with the other gods at all, but he gets PISSED when his followers kill followers of Grandmother Spider.
Just an older brother who doesn't speak with his sister, but would kill to protect her.
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I'm a big fan of the theory that Desna is not REALLY butterfly lady, but an Outer God who had blended into the gods of Golarion. Given the way that she absolutely swings above her weight class.Desna, friendly happy butterfly lady of dreams and travelers and the stars. Some demon lord Aolar starts killing clerics of various gods and gets around to those of Desna, and she responds in her peaceful hippy way by fluttering down into the Abyss and ripping his face off.
I wonder what the basis for the theory that Desna is an outer god comes from? I'm pretty sure it was debunked years ago but I haven't retained the source on that. In any case, a goddess killing a demon lord should be swinging way below the weight class for a full deity, never mind that she happens to choose an elegant form. Doubly so, given the evidence that Desna is only two steps removed from the oldest god in the setting. Even if age doesn't imply power among gods, there's no mystery behind the probability of Desna being a powerful deity.
I wonder what the basis for the theory that Desna is an outer god comes from? I'm pretty sure it was debunked years ago but I haven't retained the source on that. In any case, a goddess killing a demon lord should be swinging way
Oh it very likely was debunked. I have not been around log enough to know much at all. I just liked it when I heard it due to circumstantial evidence of her associations with space and not having a "home" place as much. Then the fact she is the most involved in fighting the Dark Tapestry.
So, very likely not true, since not a whole lot of evidence, I just find it fun. Oh and for swinging above her weight class I more meant that from a newbie/outsider perspective she is like this goddess of butterflies, dreams and luck, but then her lore is like "one of the strongest gods, present at the binding of Rovagug, accidentally creating a minor deity randomly, almost started a planar war due to a demon lord possessing one of her priests" kind of things. I love Desna, and I also enjoy playful theories like that occasionally.
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I wonder what the basis for the theory that Desna is an outer god comes from? I'm pretty sure it was debunked years ago but I haven't retained the source on that. In any case, a goddess killing a demon lord should be swinging way
Oh it very likely was debunked. I have not been around log enough to know much at all. I just liked it when I heard it due to circumstantial evidence of her associations with space and not having a "home" place as much. Then the fact she is the most involved in fighting the Dark Tapestry.
So, very likely not true, since not a whole lot of evidence, I just find it fun. Oh and for swinging above her weight class I more meant that from a newbie/outsider perspective she is like this goddess of butterflies, dreams and luck, but then her lore is like "one of the strongest gods, present at the binding of Rovagug, accidentally creating a minor deity randomly, almost started a planar war due to a demon lord possessing one of her priests" kind of things. I love Desna, and I also enjoy playful theories like that occasionally.
It is true, Desna is a very fun goddess with many interesting stories. In any case, the idea that Desna's butterfly-elf form isn't enitrely her original holds merit. Desna and her girlfriend Sarenrae are I believe thought to have come into existence more as cosmic entities that do bear some notional resemblance with the way eldritch beings are as much concept as they are entities.
Indeed, I like Desna's hidden depths as a delicate-seeming deity for much the same reason I list Shelyn above as among my favorites.
Perhaps you have heard that the Sevenfold Cynosure, Desna's realm, exists as the north star for Golarion so that she can keep watch on the prison and was originally created as the site of the treaty where the gods agreed to team up if Rovagug ever attacked their creation?
Perhaps you have heard that the Sevenfold Cynosure, Desna's realm, exists as the north star for Golarion so that she can keep watch on the prison and was originally created as the site of the treaty where the gods agreed to team up if Rovagug ever attacked their creation?Ooooh I have not! Looks like I have some stuff to read tomorrow! Thanks!
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I have a bunch, but the one I remember most is Gorum's Will you fight?.
Note: I'm not particularly keen on the deity myself, but the fact that Gorum Does Not Care if one is an enfeebled elderly person or a child, the important thing is "Does the worshiper answer the call of Battle?"
Granted, in this modern time it has become exceptionally problematic, because weaponizing children is a very amoral approach to warfare, but for the Golarion setting it seemed to 'fit' and I can't help but wonder if some of the groups like the Firebrands have a bunch of Gorumites in them because "Hey, it's a fight!"
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Honestly I love the little story about Calistria preventing a planar war. Even if obviously there was more going on. It gives a lot of merits that Calistria is not this irredeemable evil goddess some make her out to be. The fact that she tried to nurture Desna and teach her is adorable. And that she would take enough of an interest to help protect her in such a way. It just struck me as while she may not be the most goodly of good gods, she certainly would be on the side of good, should all… HELL… break lose.
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I do not know how to edit, but I read the book that the story came from when I got home from work. It is -not- rumored that Calistria helped, just that she was the one in disguise. Though it does mention that Her, Sarenrae, and Shelyn where all responsible for "Desna (emerging) from the scandal intact."
So, a awesome little bit for all 4 of the goddesses involved!
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I'm a big fan of the theory that Desna is not REALLY butterfly lady, but an Outer God who had blended into the gods of Golarion. Given the way that she absolutely swings above her weight class.
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According to her creator, Desna is neither an Outer God nor a Great Old One.
Desna as a Great Old One? Haha I like her.. but I'd like her even more then.Desna is, by all the evidence, an ancient, alien, insectoid being from beyond the stars who visits people in their dreams.
She's never been technically stated as a Great Old One, and indeed she's among their greatest foes, but Alignments aside she has more in common with them than she does with most other Gods.
The 'friendly Great Old One' interpretation of her is really easy to buy into, and makes a whole lot of sense, even if it isn't 100% canonical.
Desna is indeed an alien entity who's kind of "adopted" the humanoid form in response to her delight in how we humans look and act. She's not from "outer space" even though she enjoys outer space—she pre-dates sapient thought/mortal life in the Material Plane, along with some of the other really REALLY ancient deities.
She's not a Great Old One, though. She's a full-fledged deity who doesn't get a stat block. Nor is she an Outer God, because she actively cares for and likes and wants to help us people.
If Desna were in Lovecraft's stories, she'd be classified along with Nodens as an Elder God, I suppose.
(We don't have an "Elder God" category in Pathifnder because it's nonsensical—"Elder God" basically means "deities who aren't Great Old Ones or Outer Gods," after all, so pretty much every other deity in the setting is an "Elder God" if you look at it from the Derleth Mythos world view—the creation of that category of deity being something August Derleth introduced to the stories in his sometimes awkward attempt to categorize Lovecraft's creations into narrowly defined categories like elementals and the like.)
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According to her creator, Desna is neither an Outer God nor a Great Old One.
Oooh thanks for that link and clarification. That makes sense and is fair. I can settle for "she is an alien entity" at least haha
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Ooooh I have not! Looks like I have some stuff to read tomorrow! Thanks!
Perhaps you have heard that the Sevenfold Cynosure, Desna's realm, exists as the north star for Golarion so that she can keep watch on the prison and was originally created as the site of the treaty where the gods agreed to team up if Rovagug ever attacked their creation?
In particular, one version of the origin story shows up in the Three Fears of Pharasma (Windsong Testaments web fiction found on Paizo blog) which lists Desna among the first deities to come into existence. The history of her home realm briefly comes up in another of the Windsong Testaments, the Rage of Creation. And of course one of the testaments is about Desna herself and the tale where she accidentally unleashed Ghlaunder. There are probably a more lore sources than that to list, but since those are easily readable on the blog, they're probably the most immediately accessible.
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I have a bunch, but the one I remember most is Gorum's Will you fight?.
Note: I'm not particularly keen on the deity myself, but the fact that Gorum Does Not Care if one is an enfeebled elderly person or a child, the important thing is "Does the worshiper answer the call of Battle?"
Granted, in this modern time it has become exceptionally problematic, because weaponizing children is a very amoral approach to warfare, but for the Golarion setting it seemed to 'fit' and I can't help but wonder if some of the groups like the Firebrands have a bunch of Gorumites in them because "Hey, it's a fight!"
Yes. "Will you fight ?" deeply resonates with me. I could rephrase it as Will you take your fate in your own hands ? Will you have a say in what happens to you ?
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Oooh thanks for that link and clarification. That makes sense and is fair. I can settle for "she is an alien entity" at least haha
According to her creator, Desna is neither an Outer God nor a Great Old One.
You are welcome. :)
For my part, as much as I like the theory that she is an Outer God, I prefer Jacobs' more unique origin story for her.
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I think my favorite bit of deific lore is that of Ydersius' severed head living on and perhaps even teaching some magic to Old Mage Jatembe.
It's very reminiscent of the Norse stories of Mimir, but Ydersius being a giant snake slain in an underground cavern adds even more chthonic imagery.
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Picoperi made Urxhel smile once from a joke, and Urxhel has been trying to kill him ever since. Fantastic.
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What gets me is Cayden Cailean's stuff.
1: When he passed the test of the starstone, he was SO DRUNK he canonically does not remember how he did it.
2: Because he was an orphan as a mortal, his priests frequently run orphanages, without insisting the children take up the caydenite faith, but those that do, take the last name Cailean.
Cayden: True Homie