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I'm debating with scalable cantrips as they're a thing I do like about 5E and 2E. I'm just not sure if it would be better to increase number of dice 2d3, 3d3, max 4d3 at 15th+ (not sure of level yet) or to just increase the die d6, d8, d10 at 15+. If you were to use scalable cantrips to keep them somewhat useable which do you think would be better?
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I'm debating with scalable cantrips as they're a thing I do like about 5E and 2E. I'm just not sure if it would be better to increase number of dice 2d3, 3d3, max 4d3 at 15th+ (not sure of level yet) or to just increase the die d6, d8, d10 at 15+. If you were to use scalable cantrips to keep them somewhat useable which do you think would be better?
Offhand, I think this idea needs a bit of a rethink: On a practical level, a cantrip that does either 4d3 or 1d10 at levels 15+ is just as worthless as a cantrip that only does 1d3.
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I'm debating with scalable cantrips as they're a thing I do like about 5E and 2E. I'm just not sure if it would be better to increase number of dice 2d3, 3d3, max 4d3 at 15th+ (not sure of level yet) or to just increase the die d6, d8, d10 at 15+. If you were to use scalable cantrips to keep them somewhat useable which do you think would be better?Offhand, I think this idea needs a bit of a rethink: On a practical level, a cantrip that does either 4d3 or 1d10 at levels 15+ is just as worthless as a cantrip that only does 1d3.
Depends on how you see it. I'm not aiming for a powerful option you'd use over level appropriate spells. Its a fall back option when you've used up all your other spells and still want to feel magical. In addition I'm looking at them in regards of the overall situation i.e. a ranged touch attack that does 4d3 + int/cha modififer for a probable 12 to 20 damage. In addition they're not meant to be a choice you'd use over higher level spells but still a decent fall back option over a magical crossbow or staff when all your spell slots are used up or the DM took away all the party's items for a prison escape plot. To me in the situation I'm trying to balance them for Int + 4d3 (4 - 12) isn't a bad basic attack for a high level character. Even Int + 1d10 is something though the general result would be lower. There's also situations where you want to do something but not use any of your spell slots and there is a difference between 9 - 12 and 12 - 20 damage in that situation. This is also in the thinking about it stage its not at a hard spell development yet hence my asking for advice. I want to keep it below magic missile which is first level as a rough power level.
It won't break much to have them scale, but it shouldn't fix much either. By around level 8 you'll have enough spells to make it through a normal adventuring day. So, unless you are doing something else to slow spell acquisition, I don't think it's worth the trouble.
The limited number of spells is supposed to be to bring some balance to casters so that martial characters can get some of the attention. A high-level caster should be using consumable magic items for these situations. A wand of magic missile is fairly cheap and can be scaled up on damage. The uses of these items are factors of game balance. Eliminating the need for them allows the caster to spend the money they would cost on more powerful items. The martial classes have a similar need for consumables in the form of potions, ammunition and wondrous items.
What are you giving the martial class for when the GM took away all the party’s items? The martial classes are actually worse off when this happens than the casters. The sorcerer without any items is hardly impacted at all. They may lose access to a few spells with expensive material components but that is all. All this does is to increase the caster/martial disparity even more.
Most of the damaging cantrips are touch attacks that do not offer a save. At higher level touch AC is usually not that high. Being spells they also ignore DR and can harm incorporeal creatures. The low damage of cantrips keeps this form being a problem. Putting their damage in the 12-20 range changes that.
I have to disagree with Taja on this. I think this is a bad idea that is solving a problem that is a deliberate game balance feature. A wizard can use the money they would normally be spending on wands to purchase more spells. A sorcerer will be able to afford more scrolls or gain access to powerful magic items earlier.
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The limited number of spells is supposed to be to bring some balance to casters so that martial characters can get some of the attention. A high-level caster should be using consumable magic items for these situations. A wand of magic missile is fairly cheap and can be scaled up on damage. The uses of these items are factors of game balance. Eliminating the need for them allows the caster to spend the money they would cost on more powerful items. The martial classes have a similar need for consumables in the form of potions, ammunition and wondrous items.
What are you giving the martial class for when the GM took away all the party’s items? The martial classes are actually worse off when this happens than the casters. The sorcerer without any items is hardly impacted at all. They may lose access to a few spells with expensive material components but that is all. All this does is to increase the caster/martial disparity even more.
Most of the damaging cantrips are touch attacks that do not offer a save. At higher level touch AC is usually not that high. Being spells they also ignore DR and can harm incorporeal creatures. The low damage of cantrips keeps this form being a problem. Putting their damage in the 12-20 range changes that.
I have to disagree with Taja on this. I think this is a bad idea that is solving a problem that is a deliberate game balance feature. A wizard can use the money they would normally be spending on wands to purchase more spells. A sorcerer will be able to afford more scrolls or gain access to powerful magic items earlier.
There are things the martials get as well e.g. power attack is an attack option not a feat since its just a reckless swing.
When you take away the archer's bow, he is much worse off than the sorcerer who has no equipment. While some feats like power attack will work without weapons many will not. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization does not. Class abilities like armor training, weapon training are also rendered useless. Power attack may be a reckless swing, but it still requires the fighter to spend a feat.
Take away all gear from a 15th level archery focused fighter and all he has left is a high BAB, bravery and a good fortitude save. Take away all gear from a 15th level sorcerer and they have the majority of their abilities. A melee focused fighter will fair slightly better because he probably has power attack and maybe 1 or two other feats that he can still use. The fighter will be doing 1d3 damage with his attacks, and probably provoking an AoO with every attack he makes. The fighter is reduced to the damage that a non-scaling cantrip does, while the sorcerer is doing 12-20 damage.
A 15th level draconic sorcerer with no gear can still use form of the dragon II to turn into a large red dragon. They also have mage armor as a spell so can have that up. Assuming a 10 STR, 14 DEX and Con and a 21 CHA the sorcerer at this point has an AC of 25 and has a bite at +9 doing 2d6+4 damage, 2 claws at +9 doing 1d8+3 damage and a tail slap at +4 for 1d8+4 and two wing attacks at +4 for 1d6+1. Changing into a dragon boosts his STR and CON so he also has a 152 HP. The sorcerer also has DR 5/magic, fire resistance, a breath weapon and can fly. The 15th level fighter has an AC of 12 (assuming 21 STR, 14 DEX 14 CON). He gets 3 unarmed strikes at +16/+11/+6 doing 1d3+13 damage (with power attack).
The fighter is totally outclassed by the sorcerer at this point. Even without using any spells the sorcerer has an AC of 16, two claw attacks doing 1d6+ 1d6 fire, fire resistance 10, a breath weapon, and flight. The sorcerer also has access to his spells. It’s pretty obvious the sorcerer does much better without gear than the fighter.
If you were to use scalable cantrips to keep them somewhat useable which do you think would be better?
Spells scale by increasing how many dice you roll, not by changing the type of dice. Why should a scaling cantrip behave differently?
A 15th level draconic sorcerer with no gear can still use form of the dragon II to turn into a large red dragon. They also have mage armor as a spell so can have that up. Assuming a 10 STR, 14 DEX and Con and a 21 CHA the sorcerer at this point has an AC of 25 and has a bite at +9 doing 2d6+4 damage, 2 claws at +9 doing 1d8+3 damage and a tail slap at +4 for 1d8+4 and two wing attacks at +4 for 1d6+1. Changing into a dragon boosts his STR and CON so he also has a 152 HP. The sorcerer also has DR 5/magic, fire resistance, a breath weapon and can fly. The 15th level fighter has an AC of 12 (assuming 21 STR, 14 DEX 14 CON). He gets 3 unarmed strikes at +16/+11/+6 doing 1d3+13 damage (with power attack).
The fighter is totally outclassed by the sorcerer at this point. Even without using any spells the sorcerer has an AC of 16, two claw attacks doing 1d6+ 1d6 fire, fire resistance 10, a breath weapon, and flight. The sorcerer also has access to his spells. It’s pretty obvious the sorcerer does much better without gear...
using a sorcerer is a niche example: A 15 level wizard without his spellbook has a few cantrips and maybe a school ability or two, but for the most part is crippled.
If the wizard chose familiar as his arcane bond, he could get some help from the familiar. An elven evoker would still has 15 rounds of elemental wall and up to 15 force missiles per day. A non-elven wizard would only have 8 force missiles, but still do 1d4+7 damage with no miss chance. He would still also have cantrips so assuming he memorized a damaging cantrip like ray of frost, he has a ranged touch attack with a range of 60’, that does 1d3+7 (with intense spell) damage that he can use an unlimited number of times. A conjurer would have an attack doing 1d6+7 and be able to teleport. The last one is likely to be a get out of jail card and allow the wizard to circumvent the entire problem of being captured.
A wizard without his spell books still has the spells he memorized but would have problems memorizing new spells after he uses his current spells. But there are several ways to minimize this problem. If the wizard has Teleport as one of his memorized spells they can simply teleport back to their base where they probably have spare copies of their spell book. The spell Secluded Grimoire also eliminates much of the problems with spell books.
Unless all the wizard’s spells have material/focus components they will still probably come out ahead of the fighter without any gear.
By 15th level, the wizard should be rather hard to keep from his spellbook, if he was trying at all. I personally keep a second blessed book with a bookplate of recall buried in a secret location just in case I lose my spellbook. My primary spellbook is kept in a glove of storing for quick access.
My "issue" with this whole idea is the problem of scaling. Casters start off relatively weak to martials until around level 8, where they catch up and then quickly leave them behind. If you want to buff casters, it needs to be on the front end, and if you want to buff martials it needs to be on the back end. Giving casters scaling cantrips and martials free starting feats just makes the problem worse.
Melkiador is spot on about buffing the classes. The last thing a spell caster needs is a buff at higher levels.
Not what you are going for here, but this did remind me of the rare cantrips. https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lc7e?Ultimate-Cantrips
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By 15th level, the wizard should be rather hard to keep from his spellbook, if he was trying at all. I personally keep a second blessed book with a bookplate of recall buried in a secret location just in case I lose my spellbook. My primary spellbook is kept in a glove of storing for quick access.
My "issue" with this whole idea is the problem of scaling. Casters start off relatively weak to martials until around level 8, where they catch up and then quickly leave them behind. If you want to buff casters, it needs to be on the front end, and if you want to buff martials it needs to be on the back end. Giving casters scaling cantrips and martials free starting feats just makes the problem worse.
I merely used power attack as an example that I do have things for martials not just casters and I also have things for early casters I just didn't list them all as its not the point of this thread which is which option is better for scaling cantrips.
I view the Fire jet etc that classes like evoker wizard get as what your "scalable cantrip"s should look like
Over the years, I've seen a few different 3PPs and independent game designers bring up their own version of scalable cantrips for PF1e. In every case I've seen a well-designed version of this, there's been a gateway feat needed to balance the character resource investment to the power up-tick of such a system.
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Over the years, I've seen a few different 3PPs and independent game designers bring up their own version of scalable cantrips for PF1e. In every case I've seen a well-designed version of this, there's been a gateway feat needed to balance the character resource investment to the power up-tick of such a system.
Care to direct me to any so I can see if I can get a copy to look at the feat/s please?
I adopted the 3 action economy from the Unchained Book and made use of scalable cantrips. Most spells cost 2 actions to cast, cantrips and swift/immediate actions cost 1 action/reaction (swift action spells wouldn't provoke like cantrips), with the limitation of being once per turn only. Cantrips were tweaked to all do 1d4+casting mod damage, with an extra dice being added at 4th level and every 3 levels after.
Might not work at all for normal games, but I thought I'd share.