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I've been holding in this feeling/worry that wizard is going to be essentially nerfed from it's current state.
I keep telling myself, wait for remaster to come out.
Then the preview happened and I'm really struggling to contain myself so I thought I'd let out my worries here and you all can either salve them or irritate them lol.
I like schools, but they are so limited I feel like that extra spell slot has become... disappointing. Those slots you'd often choose spells that remain useful even at low spell slots
With the much more narrow scope of options with the schools changes, I fear we can no longer do this, resulting in spell slots that become very nearly dead weight as I level.
Combine this with what seems to be like next to no mechanical changes to the class. I worry they will... Just be worse.
We haven't seen focus spell changes or possibly any good new low level feats.
I'm not knocking play at high level but the feat shown is for level 14. While interesting I'm in agreement with others that is could have been much lower.
I don't think they will be unplayable, and maybe I'm biased, but wizard seemed good but not particularly strong already unless your DM is very very generous to knowledge of what you will be facing regularly.
I'll still play them, just very sad the preview actually made me more worried about the class, instead of hyped.
Narrow schools could also mean that it's more easy for a low level feat that reads something along the lines of "pick a second school" siilar to Order explorer or multimuse bards and etc.
Not sure if this exists or not, but I think that it's still early to say if the class as a whole is nerfed.
It probably is, but I've been holding it in for well over a month now and I was going to explode after reading the preview if I didn't uncork a bit
A feat like that would be nice, though still results to me in a nerfed feeling since I have to spend a feat to hopefully gain similar results to current wizard
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Honestly, I don't see how they'll get any weaker by these changes. Wizard has always been the caster class that gets a lot of cool spell feats.
While I'm no where near as hyperbolic as problem... It's about a loss of versatility we no gain in power that we've really seen.
Paizo very clearly views versatility as power, so to reduce that versatility and not, from current perspective, give them more power, just comes off as them being overall worse.
Narrow schools could also mean that it's more easy for a low level feat that reads something along the lines of "pick a second school" siilar to Order explorer or multimuse bards and etc.
Not sure if this exists or not, but I think that it's still early to say if the class as a whole is nerfed.
It probably is, but I've been holding it in for well over a month now and I was going to explode after reading the preview if I didn't uncork a bit
A feat like that would be nice, though still results to me in a nerfed feeling since I have to spend a feat to hopefully gain similar results to current wizard
We've seen the complete list of wizard fears by name already. Only two if them are unknown at this point and neither of them sounds like it'll add a second curriculum.
It's still possible they added something like that to one of the old feats, of course. Or they might have made it a class feature at level 9-ish maybe? Universalist could get something else instead.
But honestly, I'm not holding my breath. Wizard focus spells have always been more filler than something you spend your turn on and of all the focus spell using classes, the wizard has by far the worst focus progression.
I'm frankly not sure if I'd play a wizard over an arcane Witch. The new rune patron is pretty bad as well, but the new witch feats shown so far might make up for it.
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Narrow schools could also mean that it's more easy for a low level feat that reads something along the lines of "pick a second school" siilar to Order explorer or multimuse bards and etc.
Not sure if this exists or not, but I think that it's still early to say if the class as a whole is nerfed.
It probably is, but I've been holding it in for well over a month now and I was going to explode after reading the preview if I didn't uncork a bit
A feat like that would be nice, though still results to me in a nerfed feeling since I have to spend a feat to hopefully gain similar results to current wizard
We've seen the complete list of wizard fears by name already. Only two if them are unknown at this pointamd neither of them spends like it'll add a second curriculum.
It's still possible they added something loke that to one of the old feats, of course. Or they might have made it a class feature at level 9-ish maybe? Universalist could get something else instead.
But honestly, I'm not holding my breath. Wizard focus spells have always been more filler than something you spend your turn on and of all the focus spell using classes, the wizard has by far the worst focus progression.
I'm frankly not sure if I'd play a wizard over an arcane Witch. The new rune patron is also as well, but the new witch feats shown so far might make up for it.
Overall I have negative interest in familiars and positive interest in a 4th spell slot per level
But if that extra spell slot isn't of much value anymore due to lack of good options I'm honestly not sure what I'd do
Probably just make a 4th cleric I guess
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Apparently the majority think the wizard is fine. If that is the data paizo has to go on, I guess there won't be many improvements.
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Narrow schools could also mean that it's more easy for a low level feat that reads something along the lines of "pick a second school" siilar to Order explorer or multimuse bards and etc.
Not sure if this exists or not, but I think that it's still early to say if the class as a whole is nerfed.
It probably is, but I've been holding it in for well over a month now and I was going to explode after reading the preview if I didn't uncork a bit
A feat like that would be nice, though still results to me in a nerfed feeling since I have to spend a feat to hopefully gain similar results to current wizard
We've seen the complete list of wizard fears by name already. Only two if them are unknown at this point and neither of them sounds like it'll add a second curriculum.
It's still possible they added something like that to one of the old feats, of course. Or they might have made it a class feature at level 9-ish maybe? Universalist could get something else instead.
But honestly, I'm not holding my breath. Wizard focus spells have always been more filler than something you spend your turn on and of all the focus spell using classes, the wizard has by far the worst focus progression.
I'm frankly not sure if I'd play a wizard over an arcane Witch. The new rune patron is pretty bad as well, but the new witch feats shown so far might make up for it.
The one wizard feat where we've seen a remastered version is Conceal Spell (from the Animist playtest) and it looks wildly buffed. I doubt we will see that across the board given how uneven remaster buffs have been,* but I don't think we need to give up hope that some of those feats will be stronger than they were before.
*The Inscribed Familiar ability isn't impressive compared to the Resentment, and Murksight remaining an 8th level witch feat compared to Spirit/Shred Familiar is absurd.
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But if that extra spell slot isn't of much value anymore due to lack of good options I'm honestly not sure what I'd doIt seems that Generalist won't be changed much and so remains a viable option. Free re-cast from 3 free options is still better then one additional niche slot.
I never liked it much as I liked having those extra slots
But it might become the default play by most...
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Have to agree. I don't think PF2 wizards are terrible but there's a lot that feels a little bit underbaked and the remaster isn't doing a lot to improve that.
It sort of feels like a lot of it is just going to hinge on whether one of the schools happens to have an abnormally strong focus spell or abnormally optimized list of bonus spells, rather than there being any obviously cool new thing that stands out.
It feels like a missed opportunity to me not to add another dimension to the schools, like some sort of passive effect or unique ability that really helps show why being a specialist in this field is meaningful to you.
... Also I don't really want to throw shade anywhere but it's kind of wild to me that one of the arguments in the other thread is that this change is really good because you can... homebrew it away if your GM wants to.
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I don't see how people can complain that the wizard is too broad, the wizard is too much of a generalist, the wizard doesn't have the means to lean into a theme, and then get spell schools that act like themes...and the same people turn around and complain that the wizard isn't broad and generalist enough with the new change.
Have to agree. I don't think PF2 wizards are terrible but there's a lot that feels a little bit underbaked and the remaster isn't doing a lot to improve that.
It sort of feels like a lot of it is just going to hinge on whether one of the schools happens to have an abnormally strong focus spell or abnormally optimized list of bonus spells, rather than there being any obviously cool new thing that stands out.
It feels like a missed opportunity to me not to add another dimension to the schools, like some sort of passive effect or unique ability that really helps show why being a specialist in this field is meaningful to you.
... Also I don't really want to throw shade anywhere but it's kind of wild to me that one of the arguments in the other thread is that this change is really good because you can... homebrew it away if your GM wants to.
I think the argument is less that being able to homebrew the change away makes it good, and more that GMs are explicitly encouraged to mitigate the negative consequences of the change. It is the difference between "oh yeah this is great!" and "meh, could be worse."
There are other parts of the new school idea that are good, and people may think those parts outweigh the nerf to school slots. But that's a different argument, as well.
My vibe right now from the remaster is that the general power level of casters is rising, but not particularly evenly even within the same class. Witches retained some meh feats while getting some absolutely bonkers new feats, and there's a similar spread on familiar abilities. There is still room for wizard feats to get a similar treatment.
A lot of the best options a class had got bigger upgrades than the worst ones did. Spell blending will probably be better than ever if you want to blend away low level slots with bad curriculum options, but familiar will probably still feel a little lackluster.
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It's all good. I've seen enough errata and expansion to know wizards and alchemists will probably remain not my cup of tea. Plenty of people like them as they are so they're not bad classes, they just have design paradigms I don't enjoy
Maybe the new remaster wizard will have an extra spell slot per rank than the previous edition on top of the limited bonus spells from curriculum.
I think that would cement the class as the versatile master of spells. You may have to prepare in advance, but you'll have lots of tools at you disposal.
We just don't know yet.
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Maybe the new remaster wizard will have an extra spell slot per rank than the previous edition on top of the limited bonus spells from curriculum.
I think that would cement the class as the versatile master of spells. You may have to prepare in advance, but you'll have lots of tools at you disposal.
We just don't know yet.
I think if there was a change that profound they'd probably have talked about it by now TBH. The buffs are probably going to be more around the edges. Some feats got stronger here, a few spells got stronger there. Shared casting proficiency means you can poach focus spells from the psychic and witch easier, and so on.
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I've been holding in this feeling/worry that wizard is going to be essentially nerfed from it's current state.
I keep telling myself, wait for remaster to come out.
Then the preview happened and I'm really struggling to contain myself so I thought I'd let out my worries here and you all can either salve them or irritate them lol.
I like schools, but they are so limited I feel like that extra spell slot has become... disappointing. Those slots you'd often choose spells that remain useful even at low spell slots
With the much more narrow scope of options with the schools changes, I fear we can no longer do this, resulting in spell slots that become very nearly dead weight as I level.
Combine this with what seems to be like next to no mechanical changes to the class. I worry they will... Just be worse.
We haven't seen focus spell changes or possibly any good new low level feats.
I'm not knocking play at high level but the feat shown is for level 14. While interesting I'm in agreement with others that is could have been much lower.
I don't think they will be unplayable, and maybe I'm biased, but wizard seemed good but not particularly strong already unless your DM is very very generous to knowledge of what you will be facing regularly.
I'll still play them, just very sad the preview actually made me more worried about the class, instead of hyped.
A lot of what the Remaster preview was shown to us was basically mostly already shown to us from the PDF document as well as the other tidbits from streams and the like. It's basically old news at this point, and while people have been saying "Wait until the release," it's basically being complicit in sending the class to its death, or the way of current Swashbuckler/Investigator/Alchemist/Witch, since the class is already at the printers now, and many who find subpar classes acceptable still definitely find issues with these ones in particular. (These are also probably the same people who were fine with PF1 Fighters and Rogues being the way they were before Unchained/PF2 as well, so no surprise there.)
Really, the only "new" thing they showed us not mentioned anywhere was the feat, and I can agree with others that it's a relatively lackluster feat. It does junk damage for its action/time investment, is written sloppily, and doesn't really have much draw to it for its intended purpose.
I can see what the feat was attempting to do though: It lets you add in a bit of battlefield control on top of blasting, so you can do both and not have to compromise that much (or spend as many slots for it). But there are a few fundamental problems with this (among some other minor tweaks they should just do to keep the feat operating smoothly).
1. The area it encompasses is way too small for the level you acquire it at; 10 feet at 14th level is dwarfed by a mere Fireball spell available at 5th level. This means you aren't going to be affecting anywhere near as many enemies or spaces with this, meaning it's nowhere near as threatening as you might think, since again, 3rd level spell doubles the size of a 14th level feat effect. Maybe if it matched the size of the effect for a reduced value (something like, I don't know..."Echoing Spell Array?"), it'd be more worthwhile, since then it's more menacing as a battlefield control effect, while simultaneously being potent enough to force enemies to actually waste an action or two (and trigger AoOs with proper placement, forcing them to move more than just a single Step action), and actually justifies the 14th level feat slot. But maybe I'm just crazy like that.
2. The spell can force players out of spots, or risk friendly fire, which is relatively poor spell design to begin with, and encourages stupid gameplay. Wizards are the smart class, they should that spells which keep pieces on the board are going to be more efficient than spells that don't, so why give them a tool that is either useless (in which case why print the feat) or more detrimental to the team than helpful? Feats are supposed to help the class and provide more options for the class to approach in-combat and out-of-combat situations, not create trap options that make them look stupid for taking them one way or another. It's potent enough just to irritate/invalidate potential party tactics while at the same time not potent enough for enemies to treat them as actual threats.
3. The "area" requirements for it don't make much sense as far as limitations are concerned, given that the main requirement is that it's supposed to trigger on instantaneous damage, of which plenty of other spells apply to. Why couldn't I use Chain Lightning for this, and have one of the targets be the centerpoint for this "Time Bomb" effect? It's a 14th level feat, have it actually do something mutable and feasible, instead of it only working on the slightest of circumstances.
Did I also mention that the damage rules for it make no sense? It deals Force damage, but deals the same type of damage as the spell if it does a different type? Pick one; it's not complicated. And given they already have the "choose one damage type if it deals multiple types" clause, it feels awfully repetitive to say it's one type, then it changes to the same type as the spell; no spell that fits the criteria applies to that, and no, futureproofing isn't an excuse, because unless they come up with a "Disintegrating Lasers" 9th level or 10th level spell that casts Disintegrate on all enemies within X feet of you, it's not happening. (Though it would be funny to have a "Raving Death Laser" spell, I'm not buying that Paizo would make one, both for balance and continuity reasons.)
And to put the feat into perspective, at 14th level, you're casting 7th level spells. This includes the likes of Mass Haste, Frigid Flurry, Prismatic Spray, etc. at what point does "I'm going to create a Large-sized Time Bomb effect as part of casting this spell" sound potent enough to justify the action expenditure instead of drawing a Scroll to prepare for next turn with, Striding to a better location, using Intimidate, etc.? Because even at the first levels where you get an area of effect (like Burning Hands/Chilling Spray at Level 1), this isn't justified, and honestly, if it was available at 1st level, imagine how many Wizards would end up putting themselves next to one of these explosive Time Bombs they make? Too many.
The schools are a straight nerf, there's no getting out of it or using OGL/setting as an excuse to justify it, because seriously, why should what was anywhere from 6-12 spells for a given level now reduced to 2, maybe 3. And it's not like they packed the school slots with purportedly useful spells; no, they have things like Approximate and Burning Hands as free spells. Boo, ugh, yawn. No Haste. No tradition-exclusive spells like every other spellcasting class gets (seriously, where's my School of Ecosystems at for some Primal spells like Protector Tree and Summon Animal?). It's just free known spells relegated to your "bonus" slot, which are usually irrelevant by the next spell level available.
I've played a Wizard from 1 to 20, and I've had no thesis on the Wizard from 1st to 8th (because I don't find the Familiar Master thesis to be compelling enough to justify as a class path), and quite honestly, the only thing that made me feel powerful with that character was my system mastery. No, it wasn't the class, or their abilities, because quite honestly, I could have done mostly the same thing(s) with a Sorcerer, especially within the first 8 levels (since I was basically gimped anyway), meaning it was all system mastery that made the class seem at all useful.