Apart from a level 1-2 speed bump, you can get medium armor easily, and heavy in exchange for an archetype dedication. I'd like for that to not be where the class pushes you, but...
You're giving up about five damage per hit with a melee Dex build vs. going Str, and that's pretty rough. Your reach weapon is a d6 instead of d10, maybe a d6.5 because of extra traits, and you'd have to dip into uncommon options to get a d8 non-reach finesse weapon vs. multiple common d12s. That's two damage, and there's another three from stat. You can cut it down to a difference of three damage total if you give up on being relevant in any social or downtime activities, of course.
This is something very much baked into the system, so I don't expect Exemplar to solve it. But if the class is going to have light armor as its base, and focus on nimble heroes of legend, it'd be nice to have the class follow the example of classes like Rogue, Investigator, and Swashbuckler, adding a little extra to finesse weapons. Not enough to bring it to the same damage level (given the extra skills and better reflex), but enough to take some sting out of it. Weapon ikon for finesse weapons that gives more than the usual two damage, maybe? That's far from perfect, since it even more strongly incentivizes just staying in weapon mode.
Mostly just tossing the idea out there.
I feel the class would be fine for str build by just having medium armor baked in; the class has a lot of greek myth demigod flavor, and many of those warriors in myth did wear what would be medium armor.
Weapon ikon for finesse weapons that gives more than the usual two damage, maybe? That's far from perfect, since it even more strongly incentivizes just staying in weapon mode.I mean in this case strength characters could just use a finesse weapon.
Definitely worth noting, yeah. As long as the extra damage isn't more than 2 per die, then there wouldn't be much advantage anyway, since finesse generally knocks max die size by two steps. They get more weapon traits, so the most balanced point is probably 1 per die?
I feel the class would be fine for str build by just having medium armor baked in; the class has a lot of greek myth demigod flavor, and many of those warriors in myth did wear what would be medium armor.
Going Dex-melee is already kind of hard to justify, and having medium armor takes the class in the "Just use Str" direction. That's fine, and an improvement over the annoying two-level gap for non-humans, but it'd be nice to have Dex be supported even if they resolve the issue that way.
I'm hoping that hurl at the horizon will add a returning rune effect so dex exemplars (or dexemplars) can fill in the finesse niche more fully. Imo, the best part of dex builds is the ability to switch hit.
Yeah- if they'd included that in the playtest, the potential perks of Dex would've been a bit more clear.
Dex exemplars that dump Str are really poor supported because we get basically no ikon support outside thrown weapons and bows.
In practice it's just strange that the class don't get medium or even heavy armor proficiency (many people are focused in some classic image of gods/demigods/hero epics due light armor only but nothing really prevents or justify a image of heavy armored legendary epic figure).
IMO would be cool if we get some sort of weapon Ikon with a higher spirit damage immanence when using a finesse weapon to support some more agile specialized heroes.
For some reason the class gives me a image of a Fate's hero (from Fate's games/animes) too (probably because they are based on legends) and there's some sort of heroic figures that are based on high dexterity.
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Going Dex-melee is already kind of hard to justify, and having medium armor takes the class in the "Just use Str" direction. That's fine, and an improvement over the annoying two-level gap for non-humans, but it'd be nice to have Dex be supported even if they resolve the issue that way.
Throughout the whole lifespan of pathfinder, it's been pretty well shown that the best way to encourage dex melee is to just add dex to damage. If you don't want to do dex to damage; just let the class use str for melee. The already assumes str is the "hurt people in melee" stat in it's core design.
Choosing to punish a melee exemplar with weaker armor proficiency isn't going to encourage people to play a dex exemplar; it just makes Sentinel a mandatory level 2 feat.
Even all of that mentioned, exemplar is a dex or str KAS class; the intent is to encourage both agile characters along with strong Hercules style demigods, so the fact that str isn't supported is just plain weird
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This is odd because I feel the exact opposite. That they are more supported than strength.
You can easily cap your AC, while yes you can take a feat for this, that goes for every class in the game so I don't see it as a good argument
They get static damage bumps in weapon ikon and many of their transcendant abilities are just better versions of existing abilities
Plus has some decent options for ranged/thrown builds
I do not think that being supported means best damage. Nor should it.
This is odd because I feel the exact opposite. That they are more supported than strength.
You can easily cap your AC, while yes you can take a feat for this, that goes for every class in the game so I don't see it as a good argument
They get static damage bumps in weapon ikon and many of their transcendant abilities are just better versions of existing abilities
Plus has some decent options for ranged/thrown builds
I do not think that being supported means best damage. Nor should it.
I don't expect the best damage either, just noting that the damage difference being about five feels really severe at the levels I can build in the PFS playtest (1, 3, and 5).
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I don't expect the best damage either, just noting that the damage difference being about five feels really severe at the levels I can build in the PFS playtest (1, 3, and 5).This is odd because I feel the exact opposite. That they are more supported than strength.
You can easily cap your AC, while yes you can take a feat for this, that goes for every class in the game so I don't see it as a good argument
They get static damage bumps in weapon ikon and many of their transcendant abilities are just better versions of existing abilities
Plus has some decent options for ranged/thrown builds
I do not think that being supported means best damage. Nor should it.
Fair, I don't play pfs admittedly
But this is on par with pretty much every martial as well outside of thief rogue.
You sacrafice strength you sacrafice damage. You can boost strength and Dex buy you sacrafice your class DC.
It seems people want capped AC, high strength and charisma without any sacrafice or decision making despite being able to shore up that pet desire with a single feat.
I don't expect the best damage either, just noting that the damage difference being about five feels really severe at the levels I can build in the PFS playtest (1, 3, and 5).This is odd because I feel the exact opposite. That they are more supported than strength.
You can easily cap your AC, while yes you can take a feat for this, that goes for every class in the game so I don't see it as a good argument
They get static damage bumps in weapon ikon and many of their transcendant abilities are just better versions of existing abilities
Plus has some decent options for ranged/thrown builds
I do not think that being supported means best damage. Nor should it.
Fair, I don't play pfs admittedly
But this is on par with pretty much every martial as well outside of thief rogue.
You sacrafice strength you sacrafice damage. You can boost strength and Dex buy you sacrafice your class DC.
It seems people want capped AC, high strength and charisma without any sacrafice or decision making despite being able to shore up that pet desire with a single feat.
The finesse classes are usually only a difference of 3 damage rather than 5- they get some damage bump conditional on them using a finesse weapon to make up for the difference in damage die sizes, so it's just the stat difference. Eating -2 damage per die on top of the stat damage difference is what hurts.
If I'm playing a Fighter and I want to make a finesse build, I've got a ton of support to make one-handed worthwhile, so I'm using a d6 weapon instead of a d8. If I'm playing a Monk, Dex actually gives me better AC.
Exemplar has no real incentive to not go two-handed, so the difference between finesse and strength is the full two die sizes. Any AC advantage for Dex disappears at level 1, 2, or 3. It's a 10hp class, so reflex saves aren't a big deal. You get very few skills, so Dex having more skills isn't relevant.
My annoyance is not "I don't want to give up anything by dumping strength", it's "You give up little by dumping dexterity, but dumping strength hurts a lot". Ranged and medium/heavy armor strength melee feel like the two clear winners. "You need a feat" feels like a cheap band-aid that covers up the issue, and I'd rather have the issue addressed.
Maybe the answer is just "everyone uses free archetype outside PFS, and I want more skills anyway - grab Rogue multiclass and pick up a d6 of sneak attack to take the sting out of the difference". I'm not actually worried about PFS, since I won't be able to play the class in it and it's better suited to home games anyway.
I don't expect the best damage either, just noting that the damage difference being about five feels really severe at the levels I can build in the PFS playtest (1, 3, and 5).This is odd because I feel the exact opposite. That they are more supported than strength.
You can easily cap your AC, while yes you can take a feat for this, that goes for every class in the game so I don't see it as a good argument
They get static damage bumps in weapon ikon and many of their transcendant abilities are just better versions of existing abilities
Plus has some decent options for ranged/thrown builds
I do not think that being supported means best damage. Nor should it.
Fair, I don't play pfs admittedly
But this is on par with pretty much every martial as well outside of thief rogue.
You sacrafice strength you sacrafice damage. You can boost strength and Dex buy you sacrafice your class DC.
It seems people want capped AC, high strength and charisma without any sacrafice or decision making despite being able to shore up that pet desire with a single feat.
The finesse classes are usually only a difference of 3 damage rather than 5- they get some damage bump conditional on them using a finesse weapon to make up for the difference in damage die sizes, so it's just the stat difference. Eating -2 damage per die on top of the stat damage difference is what hurts.
If I'm playing a Fighter and I want to make a finesse build, I've got a ton of support to make one-handed worthwhile, so I'm using a d6 weapon instead of a d8. If I'm playing a Monk, Dex actually gives me better AC.
Exemplar has no real incentive to not go two-handed, so the difference between finesse and strength is the full two die sizes. Any AC advantage for Dex disappears at level 1, 2, or 3. It's a 10hp class, so reflex saves aren't a big deal. You get very few skills, so Dex having more skills isn't relevant.
My annoyance is not "I...
It's never genuine to compare a one hand character to a two hand imo
If your going one hand and not dual wield you've already committed to the idea of doing less damage
What's the damage difference between one using a longsword and one using a finesse weapon is where I'd be interested in reading personally
It's never genuine to compare a one hand character to a two hand imo
If your going one hand and not dual wield you've already committed to the idea of doing less damage
What's the damage difference between one using a longsword and one using a finesse weapon is where I'd be interested in reading personally
I don't mean to be comparing one-handed and two-handed in general, I just brought it up for Fighter because it's another strength-or-dex class. Probably wasn't relevant enough.
Two-handed finesse caps at d8, or just d6 for common. General two-handed caps at d12 for common. Two-handed reach finesse caps at d6, while two-handed reach caps at d10. That two-step difference on top of stat difference hurts.
If you have a reason to go one-handed, yeah, that difference drops. D6 dagger is great compared to a longsword. Exemplar doesn't offer a reason to do that, though. No shield block, and you don't have spare actions to spend on it anyway. Maneuver builds are strength anyway.
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For some reason the class gives me a image of a Fate's hero (from Fate's games/animes) too (probably because they are based on legends) and there's some sort of heroic figures that are based on high dexterity.It's because fate as a similar view of hero's where their power comes from feats and legendary objects associated with them. The naming convention is also very similar for the abilities and they reference allot of the same heroes.I wonder if we will get any of the fate memes with exemplar such as archers rarely actually using bows, every swordsmen inexplicably being a blonde haired women and having a guy with a spear every adventure who gets betrayed and dies.
Any way on the topic of dex and strength. Exemplar is maybe the class to really mix up weapons and do things like allowing dex to add to damage or do things like wield two handed weapons in one hand or one handed weapons in two hands for extra damage. Part of the class is about making unique legendary ikons so maybe they should also have unique fighting style with unique properties like chuchulain throwing a spear with his foot. The humble strikes ability could also maybe use the ability to add a weapon trait to simple weapon in addition to increasing the damage dice because simple weapons are also often behind in traits as well as damage.
A feat that does something like let you add dex as precision damage instead of strength on a finesse weapon seems like a solid idea. It's also possibly a good idea for the gaze as sharp as steel which needs something to replace it's reactive strike feature that is both redundant and incompatible with the ranged weapons many people will want to use with it.
I was against thief getting Dex to damage
I'm still not a fan of it
So I'm very much not for more classes getting it.
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I'm not against dex to dmg option and honestly I don't know why some people are against it. IMO it just works for thiefs so I don't know why this solution cannot be used for other classes (including this is one of main reasons why I prefer rogues over swashbucklers for light melee characters).
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I tested both a Dex (bow) and Str (greatsword) exemplar and I found that the Str build was more fun and dynamic, but I really felt vulnerable in a way that the Dex build didn't.
After doing this in the Kineticist playtest, I have to say I really hate "take the armor proficiency general feat and then the sentinel dedication" as the solution for "Str martials with only light armor." It's an ugly kludge.
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I'm not against dex to dmg option and honestly I don't know why some people are against it. IMO it just works for thiefs so I don't know why this solution cannot be used for other classes (including this is one of main reasons why I prefer rogues over swashbucklers for light melee characters).I think it's a game balance thing. The idea being to keep strength/ dex balanced by having a clear delineation of their roles but I think the result is just that dex only melee doesn't exist.
Currently its the case that strength can replace dex on some classes through using heavy armor but its not the case that dex can replace strength in any classes.
STR does not really replace DEX though : non-damaging REF saves, bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth Thievery. Those are still DEX-based.
And Bulwark saves are worse than those with DEX 18+.
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I think it's a game balance thing. The idea being to keep strength/ dex balanced by having a clear delineation of their roles but I think the result is just that dex only melee doesn't exist.
You're not wrong but as far as I can tell that's Paizo's design goal. Dex melee is a trap option built to confuse new players, not something you're intended to use once you have the system mastery to realize you were fooled.
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You're not wrong but as far as I can tell that's Paizo's design goal. Dex melee is a trap option built to confuse new players, not something you're intended to use once you have the system mastery to realize you were fooled.
I think it's a game balance thing. The idea being to keep strength/ dex balanced by having a clear delineation of their roles but I think the result is just that dex only melee doesn't exist.
Um, Dex melee is quite well supported. Thief rogue and swashbuckler are the most obvious examples but you can make a fine monk, thaumaturge etc.
Dex-melee is in a weird spot since your damage deficiency from low strength is most notable at level 1, and barely noticeable at all by level 11.
Like if you're starting a new character for an AP that runs 11-20 (e.g. Stolen Fate, Ruby Phoenix) then 10 Str is fine for dex-melee. If you're starting at level 1, it's much less fine.
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Anything with a sizable enough damage booster is more comfortable with dex melee like thaums and possibly exemplars. Fighters and champions will notice the damage difference the most so there's not many dedicated dex melee for them. Other classes that get a choice aren't so bad though. Still, it's wise to invest in a ranged attack of some sort if you're using dex.
A ranged attack is always useful, especially at lower levels. Even for a STR character.