What Weapons Don't Have Ikons?

[Golurkcanfly]

Given the current list of Weapon Ikons, there are obviously some weapons that don't have support.

At a glance, I noticed that there wasn't support for bludgeoning weapons in the Brawling, Flail, or Shield groups.

There are likely other unsupported weapon types, so we should make a list of unsupported weapons that can be added in during the full release.

[VampByDay]

First of all, some weapon groups may be switched around for the remaster. That being said, as far as I can tell:

Everything you have mentioned (shields, flails, brawling bludgeoning weapons).

In addition, combination weapons are a big question mark. If you have a BOW STAFF (a staff that can transform into a shortbow), then what, does your ranged weapon ikon turn off if you switch the weapon to melee mod? Does your Noble branch just turn off when you switched to ranged? What hapens if your divine spark is invested in your ranged weapon and you change it to melee? Is your divine spark trapped and inaccessable until you switch back?

[Squiggit]

Between Barrow's Edge and Fated Shot you already cover pretty much everything that's not a melee bludgeoning weapon, so a bludgeoning specific ikon seems like the obvious missing piece here.

Beyond that, the only other two gaps are consumable weapons (like bombs), combination weapons, and unarmed attacks. The former is probably intentional, but some kind of unarmed boosting ikon would be neat. Combo weapons are super broken as is but again I'm not sure if that's something Paizo wants to support since they suck by design.

[PossibleCabbage]

I'm sort of disappointed there's not an "unarmed" option, since heroes of legend fought unarmed a lot in various epic tales. Like Gilgamesh and Enkidu became fast-friends by throwing down over a period of days, Beowulf kills Grendel with his bare hands, Heracles strangles the Nemean lion, Odysseus wins an argument with Greater Ajax by fighting dirty in a wrestling match, Bhima finally ends the cruel reign of Jarasandha by tearing him in half in a wrestling match, etc.

I know that we're kind of going with "this is a 'stuff' class" but if your body ikon can be some tattoos, I want to have to register my fists as lethal weapons with the local authorities.

[Guntermench]

VampByDay wrote:

First of all, some weapon groups may be switched around for the remaster. That being said, as far as I can tell:

Everything you have mentioned (shields, flails, brawling bludgeoning weapons).

In addition, combination weapons are a big question mark. If you have a BOW STAFF (a staff that can transform into a shortbow), then what, does your ranged weapon ikon turn off if you switch the weapon to melee mod? Does your Noble branch just turn off when you switched to ranged? What hapens if your divine spark is invested in your ranged weapon and you change it to melee? Is your divine spark trapped and inaccessable until you switch back?

Everything else simply doesn't work if the weapon form doesn't match, like a Crushing + Shifting rune combo would mean the Crushing wouldn't work if your weapon was a sword of some kind, so I would assume the same for this. You wouldn't get the abilities, but you could choose to move the spark with Shift Immanence.

[Dtmahanen]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm sort of disappointed there's not an "unarmed" option, since heroes of legend fought unarmed a lot in various epic tales. Like Gilgamesh and Enkidu became fast-friends by throwing down over a period of days, Beowulf kills Grendel with his bare hands, Heracles strangles the Nemean lion, Odysseus wins an argument with Greater Ajax by fighting dirty in a wrestling match, Bhima finally ends the cruel reign of Jarasandha by tearing him in half in a wrestling match, etc.

I know that we're kind of going with "this is a 'stuff' class" but if your body ikon can be some tattoos, I want to have to register my fists as lethal weapons with the local authorities.

There's also the very real possibility that we haven't seen everything yet. Remember, this is a playtest, and if this is something you want in the final product, definitely mention it in the feedback, but I think that we're just getting a sampling of the options so far. I definitely want that stuff too, though, because oh my gods would a wrestling exemplar be so fun.

[JRutterbush]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like Gilgamesh and Enkidu became fast-friends by throwing down over a period of days, Beowulf kills Grendel with his bare hands, Heracles strangles the Nemean lion, Odysseus wins an argument with Greater Ajax by fighting dirty in a wrestling match, Bhima finally ends the cruel reign of Jarasandha by tearing him in half in a wrestling match, etc.

None of these heroes were dedicated unarmed fighters though (at least not that I remember). They have feats of strength that involved defeating foes without weapons, but they still used weapons most of the time. Their unarmed fights were notable because they weren't unarmed fighters, it was a challenge they overcame, not their standard method of engaging with their enemies.

If you want to mimic these heroes you don't need ikons that focus on it, you just need high Strength, maybe some Athletics feats for wrestling, and if you really want unarmed combat as a fallback just take Monk Dedication.

"I focus on defeating foes with my bare hands." and "I'm so strong I can sometimes defeat a foe with my bare hands." are not the same thing.

[VampByDay]

JRutterbush wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like Gilgamesh and Enkidu became fast-friends by throwing down over a period of days, Beowulf kills Grendel with his bare hands, Heracles strangles the Nemean lion, Odysseus wins an argument with Greater Ajax by fighting dirty in a wrestling match, Bhima finally ends the cruel reign of Jarasandha by tearing him in half in a wrestling match, etc.

None of these heroes were dedicated unarmed fighters though (at least not that I remember). They have feats of strength that involved defeating foes without weapons, but they still used weapons most of the time. Their unarmed fights were notable because they weren't unarmed fighters, it was a challenge they overcame, not their standard method of engaging with their enemies.

If you want to mimic these heroes you don't need ikons that focus on it, you just need high Strength, maybe some Athletics feats for wrestling, and if you really want unarmed combat as a fallback just take Monk Dedication.

"I focus on defeating foes with my bare hands." and "I'm so strong I can sometimes defeat a foe with my bare hands." are not the same thing.

Some come close. Gilgamesh had a sword, yes, but it was just some weapon he picked up. It only became Gae Bolg AFTER he was done wielding it.

Kintarou (Japanese) had an axe, but it goes unnamed and he mostly uses it as a tool, not a weapon.

Coyote (Several different native American Legends) Rarely used weapons.

Romulus and Remus were raised by wolves and mostly used wrestling instead of weapons.

[Falgaia]

I just hope they add in unarmed strikes of all types. I really want to do a Fleshwarp Exemplar mutated by divinity that uses their gross flesh tail or whatever for combat.

[VampByDay]

Falgaia wrote:

I just hope they add in unarmed strikes of all types. I really want to do a Fleshwarp Exemplar mutated by divinity that uses their gross flesh tail or whatever for combat.

Or . . . like . . . some enlightened martial artist? If we don't want to go the gross route?

Like yes, unarmed option good. Your character is valid. Just . . . just not where my mind first went to when I heard unarmed demigod.

[Falgaia]

VampByDay wrote:

Falgaia wrote:

I just hope they add in unarmed strikes of all types. I really want to do a Fleshwarp Exemplar mutated by divinity that uses their gross flesh tail or whatever for combat.

Or . . . like . . . some enlightened martial artist? If we don't want to go the gross route?

Like yes, unarmed option good. Your character is valid. Just . . . just not where my mind first went to when I heard unarmed demigod.

Yeah, I'm mostly saying it should be open to all Unarmed and not just fists. Go nuts with your Goku build.

[VampByDay]

Falgaia wrote:

VampByDay wrote:

Falgaia wrote:

I just hope they add in unarmed strikes of all types. I really want to do a Fleshwarp Exemplar mutated by divinity that uses their gross flesh tail or whatever for combat.

Or . . . like . . . some enlightened martial artist? If we don't want to go the gross route?

Like yes, unarmed option good. Your character is valid. Just . . . just not where my mind first went to when I heard unarmed demigod.

Yeah, I'm mostly saying it should be open to all Unarmed and not just fists. Go nuts with your Goku build.

I . . . I . . .

May have already done that two years ago.

[Gobhaggo]

I won't be surprised if the Simple Boost would also now apply to natural weapons.

Like, 'If your weapon Ikon is a natural weapon with 1d6 or lower damage, increase the die size by one'

[VampByDay]

Gobhaggo wrote:

I won't be surprised if the Simple Boost would also now apply to natural weapons.

Like, 'If your weapon Ikon is a natural weapon with 1d6 or lower damage, increase the die size by one'

Except natural attacks are not considered weapons. Paizo has been very clear on that. It really messes up a lot of stuff.

[Gobhaggo]

I just forgot the specific term, but yes I do mean that Natural attacks should be allowed to be weapon Ikons.

[Milo v3]

Definitely need to add in a general bludgeoning option like how Piercing and Slashing has, so that they cover the many bludgeoning weapons they can't currently use.

[The Raven Black]

Which weapons should NOT have Ikons ?

TBT there is none, including Unarmed attacks, I can think of.

[Captain Morgan]

Pretty sure they already said there would be an unarmed option that they just didn't want distracting from the playtest due to unarmed vs weapon differences.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Pretty sure they already said there would be an unarmed option that they just didn't want distracting from the playtest due to unarmed vs weapon differences.

I remember reading this too. Gave me similar vibes to how they only don't have sling and spear throwing and such because they wanted to use fated shot as the benchmark for range, but such weapons are planned to have support

[QuidEst]

I'd like to see picks added to the list of weapons on the "bypass hardness and do spirit damage to constructs" ikon, because kobolds and dwarves both feel like good fits for that combination.