Those stack.
The monk gets an untyped bonus to AC.
Bracers of armor give an armor type bonus to AC
Untyped bonuses stack with most other bonuses including themselves, unless those bonuses come from the same "source", usually meaning the exact same spell/ability/effect. That restriction also applies if the bonus comes from the same ability bonus, so you can't get wisdom to AC twice.
I think there was also some variant monk (Scaled Fist?) that gave Charisma to AC, and other class archetypes that had the monk style Wisdom bonus to AC and I think those were ruled not to work together, because they all basically said that work link the Monk's AC bonus.
But definitely bracers of armor and monk's AC bonus stack and are meant to. It's one of the few ways monks can get an armor bonus.
Bracers of armor are usually standard equipment for a monk. Most groups give priority to the monk over the mag for them because the monk is more likely to be in combat.
Bracers of armor are usually standard equipment for a monk. Most groups give priority to the monk over the mag for them because the monk is more likely to be in combat.
That and arcane casters that suffer from arcane spell failure (who haven't taken Arcane Armor Training) can still wear a haramaki or silken ceremonial light armor (both +1 armor bonus, no max Dex bonus, 0 ACP, 0% ASF).
I think what Dragonchess Player was saying is that arcane casters can still wear some armor without having to worry about spell failure. So, if the party has a monk and a wizard, the monk gets priority over the wizard. The wizard can still wear some armor without having to worry about spell failure, the monk on the other hand loses a lot of class ability if they wear that armor.
Plenty of monks have developed an addiction to potions of mage armor, and certain alchemist are prone to handing out potions of shield too.
I think what Dragonchess Player was saying is that arcane casters can still wear some armor without having to worry about spell failure. So, if the party has a monk and a wizard, the monk gets priority over the wizard. The wizard can still wear some armor without having to worry about spell failure, the monk on the other hand loses a lot of class ability if they wear that armor.
Exactly. Except, bonus for bonus, Bracers of Armor are like twice the price as enchanting regular armor. So wearing those light armors with no Arcane Spell Failure is better up until the bonus from Bracers of Armor would outstrip the AC bonus from enchanted armor. Which doesn't happen until mid teen levels. And even then, at that point it's probably not worth it.
Yeap, Monks are kind of double penalized, as there are some fairly attractive alternative options on the wrist slot, while mages rarely value their armor slot very highly, but can still use it to get AC.
I for example value seducers bane very highly, +5 resistance bonus vs enchantment, +5 to sense motive, and available far earlier then a +5 cloak of resistance.
Unless you're running 15-20 point buy, Monks also kinda don't need the armor boost. Like sure something is better than nothing, but even with just a 16 Dex/Wisdom, dodge, and some early investment into the AC boosting monk abilities and they have as much armor as any other non-uber tank.
Level 5 Monk:
10 Base
3+1 Dex with belt
1 Dodge
1 deflection ring
1+3+1 monk plus wisdom plus headband
Total 21 AC, can take defensive spin for +4 dodge vs single target if you're UNMonk, or just the normal +4 dodge ki point as an immediate action if you're a CMonk (which UNMonk can get in 2-3 levels as well). I think given the situational boosts, a monk can be seen to be easily within the Green (Diego Rossi's benchpressing) for armor.
Meanwhile a Fighter 5 without a shield or strong AC investment:
10 base
9+1 +1 Fullplate
2 Dex
Total 21 (sure this can reach obscene amounts: +1 armor spec, +1 armor focus, +2shield+1 shield focus+1 enhancement, +1 dodge, +1 natural amulet, +1 deflection ring for total 30, but that is a total 7,820 wealth on exclusively armor benefits which is not fighter's weak spot).
A monk like that is not going to be doing any significant damage in combat. Even with a 25 point buy that monk is only going to have a STR of 14. That means his chance of hitting is lower than normal and his damage when he does hit is also lower than it should be. If the monk takes power attack to increase his damage his chance to hit goes down even further. If he takes weapon finesse to increase his chance to hit, he is going to have a hard time getting DEX to damage. He cannot dump STR because doing so will give him a penalty to damage. He also does not have anything left in his budget to get an amulet of mighty fist which puts him even farther behind in the damage. Even if he does get an amulet of might fists that means he cannot use an amulet of natural armor.
A monk is better off pumping his STR so is unlikely to have a DEX and WIS on 16 and is better off taking a belt of STR instead of DEX. Assuming a 25 point buy the monk is probably going to have an 18 STR and a DEX, CON and WIS of 14. Assuming the monk goes with the STR belt but keeps all the rest the same the monks AC is only 18 not 21. This monk will be +10/+10 and doing 1d8+5 attacking unarmed, the other monk will be +7/+7 doing 1d8+2 for damage. If the first monk takes power attack his attack become +8/+8 doing 1d8+9.
Your fighter can also take dodge and has the feats to spare so his AC is 22, not 21. At 5th level the fighter with a +1 greatswword and +2 belt of STR will have a +10 to hit and be doing 2d6+16 damage. He only has one attack but can pick up cleave to give him a chance at a second attack. At 8th level the fighter can swap out cleave for something better.
Both the STR based monk and the fighter are a lot more effective in combat that the first monk. The monk still needs the bracers of armor.
There's a bit of a misunderstanding of what monk is supposed to be good at here, imo, but I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole in a thread where this isn't the subject. I'll just summarize with a monk doesn't need to do as much damage as the fighter when they can very easily be a much more mobile and utility based (read stunning fist and combat manuevers) combatant. Sure UNMonk is more "martially" focused than CMonk but aside from BAB they got no other buffs to their offensive capabilities over CMonk. A fighter and a monk shouldn't be an apples to apples comparison of offensive ability, their defensive ability is however far less apples to oranges.
We can very easily give the monk weapon finesse and say they will get the Agile AMoF at level 6 (not every build needs to be perfectly online by level 5, I just picked the number mostly at random). They still get the same to hit as your "Str Monk" even if they lose 3 dmg (assuming 14 starting), which is less important when you add 4 for power attack, a feat which monk rarely wants to take anyway because it makes stunning fists harder to land and because they overcome most forms of DR inherently at later levels. Once they have the Agile amulet, Strength joins Charisma as a dumpstat.
The fighter could take armor focus too for the cost of the same feat, the point was to show what they look like with minimal investment (but without making usually wrong choices, e.g. wearing a breastplate with no armor restricting abilities), so they are both AC 21 "base". Not that you challenged it so much but I also defend the purchase of a ring of protection over bracers because +1 all AC is better than just FF/Normal AC even if it's twice the price. The Monk can certainly use the bracers, do they need to take them above anything else, no. Monk has many ways to boost their AC while boosting other things, paying 4k for +1 attack/save DC, ki points, mobility/perception/social skills, reflex/will saves, initiative, *and* AC is a better bargain than 1k for +1 AC. Every gold the fighter spends on AC is spent on AC and only AC (and dodge isn't a limited selection bonus feat).
Monks also get flurry of blows, the extra attacks makes up for not hitting as often or as hard. with the right expenditure, that monk will deal damage on par with the fighter.
My examples were unchained monks and include the flurry of blows. That is why they get 2 attacks vs the fighter single attack. The monks are still behind the fighter after factoring in flurry of blows. Assuming the monk took weapon finesse that would make his attacks at +9/+9 doing 1d8+2
Assuming the monk hits with both attacks he is doing an average of 13 point of damage, where the fighter is doing 23 without factoring in cleave. The fighter also has a better chance to hit. The minimum damage the fighter can do on a hit is 18 points, the maximum the monk can do is 20. If you factor in cleave the fighter will often have the same number of attacks as the monk.
A monk can be built to deal decent damage in combat, but focusing on DEX and WIS is not how to do that. A STR based monk with power attack and using dragon style will do a lot of damage. Add Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity and weapon focus unarmed attack to the STR based monk and his unarmed attacks are now +9/+9 doing 1d8+11 damage. At that point he is doing more damage than the fighter, but his AC is only 18 vs the fighters 22.
yeah, at first level with only 2 attacks, but at higher levels that monk outpaces the fighter in attacks per round.
at 11th level the fighter get his third attack, but the monk has just picked up his 5th (+1 when spending ki). consistently the monk will get double the attacks. it doesn't take much for him do deal better than half the damage per attack than the fighter, which would maintain parity
I personally think that fighter suffers from power creep due to having been introduced very early. I still dip it occassionally, especially if I am building NPCs who need some feats, but between no spell casting, 2 skill points and a mediocre skill list, he just doesnt seem "better enough" outside of combat to compete with slayers, brawlers, bloodragers or other full bab classes.
Fighter is often worth a dip or 2 though.
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The unchained monk using strength can do a lot better by getting a Seven-branched sword. Unchained flurry also seems to use the 1.5x strength when using a 2 handed weapon. So, dealing two 1d10+1.5*STR attacks at level 1 is better than what most fighters will do at level 1.
Of course that weapon is a bit pricey for a level 1 monk at 50g, but there are options like the Ancestor's Blade trait to help with that. Or if you are in a large city, just buy it with your first cut of the loot.
Edit: I missed the Sansetsukon. It's only 8 gold and basically the same damage.
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The unchained monk using strength can do a lot better by getting a Seven-branched sword. Unchained flurry also seems to use the 1.5x strength when using a 2 handed weapon. So, dealing two 1d10+1.5*STR attacks at level 1 is better than what most fighters will do at level 1.
Of course that weapon is a bit pricey for a level 1 monk at 50g, but there are options like the Ancestor's Blade trait to help with that. Or if you are in a large city, just buy it with your first cut of the loot.
Edit: I missed the Sansetsukon. It's only 8 gold and basically the same damage.
I prefer Irumi. Monk weapon Does d8 18-20x2. UC monk is proficient.
But I love me some crit fishes
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Yeah, the Urumi is a good and fun choice too. It's a one handed weapon, but you can still use it two handed.
About the only time the flurry isn't great is if you are playing in a game with crit fails. Crit fail rules unfairly penalize builds that rely on multiple attacks.
Crit fails, also known as "martial caster disparity isnt big enough".
Semi related question, if a brawler brawlers flurries with the Scizzorre, he basically can do that but takes -4 penalties because the Scizorre is not light, right?
There are a lot of ways to build a decent unchained monk, but unless you are using mythic rules a DEX based monk is not a good idea. There is probably a monk weapon that could make it viable, but for the most part getting DEX to damage is difficult for a monk.
Style strikes make using a weapon less attractive because many of them only work with unarmed strikes. For example, Flying Kick specifies the attack made after the movement must be a kick. You can mix unarmed and weapon attacks with a flurry, but you often still need to use unarmed attacks. A good monk weapon does add more options for the monk, which is always good, but unarmed attacks are still an important part of the class.
Style strikes are a consideration, but they are mostly utility . It's not like the flying kick has to land to get the real benefit out of it. But also, it's not like the weapon monk is that unlikely to hit with his unarmed attacks when he needs to. It's still a full BAB class. And most of the style strikes can be performed while you have something in your hand.
Unless you're running 15-20 point buy
So everything you say here only applies to like 5% of players. Got it.
Sure UNMonk is more "martially" focused than CMonk but aside from BAB they got no other buffs to their offensive capabilities over CMonk.
So the ability to move and make a full attack is irrelevant to you?
If you don't understand a class, don't talk about the class.
We can very easily give the monk weapon finesse and say they will get the Agile AMoF at level 6 (not every build needs to be perfectly online by level 5, I just picked the number mostly at random). They still get the same to hit as your "Str Monk" even if they lose 3 dmg (assuming 14 starting)
The strength based Monk could spend the feat on e.g. Possessed Hand, and have a +1 higher AoMF bonus. And suddenly we're talking about -2 to attack and -5 to damage.
power attack, a feat which monk rarely wants to take anyway because it makes stunning fists harder to land and because they overcome most forms of DR inherently at later levels.
Str-based weapon builds obviously want Power Attack, and it's quite good for some other builds (styleless unarmed, Pummeling Style, and VMC Barbarian). Jabbing Style has to take it (sadly, as they do indeed not want it).
A STR based monk with power attack and using dragon style will do a lot of damage.
Dragon Styler is actually the build where you don't necessarily want Power Attack (unless you spend all your feats on damage), as Possessed Hand and Jabbing Style are better.
Style strikes make using a weapon less attractive because many of them only work with unarmed strikes. For example, Flying Kick specifies the attack made after the movement must be a kick. You can mix unarmed and weapon attacks with a flurry, but you often still need to use unarmed attacks.
You do indeed need to use them, but that doesn't make weapon based bad at all. Mathematically, a weapon-based build that uses the ki bonus attack for Flying Kick is absolutely fine - it's slightly ahead of unarmed builds, and while Ascetic Style is ahead a bit at most levels, the difference is small.
Unchained flurry also seems to use the 1.5x strength when using a 2 handed weapon.
cMonk is limited to 1xStr because cFlurry says so. With no such language, there is zero doubt that unMonk can get 1.5xStr in a Flurry.
I prefer Irumi. Monk weapon Does d8 18-20x2. UC monk is proficient.
No, Urumi does not have the monk special property. It's in the Monk Weapon Group, but Monk doesn't care about that one bit. There's the Waveblade, but it's a light weapon, which kills it for strength-based builds.
I personally think that fighter suffers from power creep due to having been introduced very early.
Advanced Weapon Training and the Training enchantment fixed that. It's not the best martial or anything, but can compare well to the likes of Brawler or Slayer.
Semi related question, if a brawler brawlers flurries with the Scizzorre, he basically can do that but takes -4 penalties because the Scizorre is not light, right?
Yes, if a Brawler wants to flurry with a single weapon, they suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls unless that weapon is light (in which case it's a -2 penalty).
Brawler Flurry is written terribly. Amazingly terribly. I doubt it was meant to penalize you for a non-light weapon, but we have what we have
Crit fail rules unfairly penalize builds that rely on multiple attacks.
Not to derail, and not that I do this with any level of frequency, but you *can* do crit fail rules if you have it confirm like you would a crit threat. The only difference is you always "confirm the fail" at your full BAB so missing again at lower BAB's isn't a higher chance the more iteratives you take. The downside is *more rolling that can only hinder you* which is still kinda just negative fun.
Unless you're running 15-20 point buySo everything you say here only applies to like 5% of players. Got it.
Sure UNMonk is more "martially" focused than CMonk but aside from BAB they got no other buffs to their offensive capabilities over CMonk.So the ability to move and make a full attack is irrelevant to you?
If you don't understand a class, don't talk about the class.
We can very easily give the monk weapon finesse and say they will get the Agile AMoF at level 6 (not every build needs to be perfectly online by level 5, I just picked the number mostly at random). They still get the same to hit as your "Str Monk" even if they lose 3 dmg (assuming 14 starting)The strength based Monk could spend the feat on e.g. Possessed Hand, and have a +1 higher AoMF bonus. And suddenly we're talking about -2 to attack and -5 to damage.
power attack, a feat which monk rarely wants to take anyway because it makes stunning fists harder to land and because they overcome most forms of DR inherently at later levels.Str-based weapon builds obviously want Power Attack, and it's quite good for some other builds (styleless unarmed, Pummeling Style, and VMC Barbarian). Jabbing Style has to take it (sadly, as they do indeed not want it).
Man you've really had nothing kind to say to me for three years. You want to talk about it?
The difference between a (+2 wis racial) PB 20 and 25 Monk is that the 20 has 14/16/11/10/14+2/7 and the 25 has 14/16/12/12/14+2/8 or some other combinations. Everyone builds differently so ymmv, but from my experience 15 to 20 PB tends to mean players get a +1 modifier in their main stats. 20 to 25 tends to mean that the players are no longer dump-statting or sitting with a bunch of +0's to get there.
In any case, yes I am fully aware of the utility in flying kick, I am fully aware it is the most powerful choice in the list of style strikes, except I am also aware it is the least powerful choice at level 5-8 when 5-15ft over a 5ft step is often not enough to close the gap to the enemy for said full attack, and by level 9 you've already gotten your second style strike for a 30ft move. I am also aware not *every* player who even is trying optimize with a monk will optimize for the same thing and thus said "defensive spin is an option for a character who wants more AC", and not "every UNMonk will have defensive spin so they have +4 AC when they need it". Maybe you're just unaware I am trying to speak broadly enough to cover both UNMonk who has these options and CMonk that doesn't?
Am I correct that your preferred alternative to taking a Dex monk and thus weapon finesse is to take a feat that is not only both heavily lore charged but from a splat book specifically meant for a certain style of campaign? Like I get it, plenty of people like to munchkin, but the entire point of my argument is that *for non-munchkins* giving the bracers of armor to the monk before the wizard is not a mandatory requirement.
My proposed 14 Str, Dex monk could take power attack to, but it's not something that benefits what monk is meant to be good at it. Ability Focus (stunning fist) is even a far better choice because it enables every other class to more easily damage a target while also denying said target actions. Trying to damage race with a monk is simply not the default play, especially when you will usually have many more classes that will always do it better in your party. (I do also find it ironic that you recommend the class that has consistent built in stun abilities take an ability that implies a campaign filled with stun-immune undead.)
The problem with the DEX based monk is that if you are going to be using combat maneuvers you need to take agile maneuvers or your CMB is going to be lower than it should. That means you are taking 2 feats just to be able to use your main combat stat to hit. That is two less feats you can be using to boost up your other abilities.
Trying to use stunning fist is going to run into a couple of problems. First is that a lot of creatures are outright immune to it. Any construct, ooze, plant or undead are immune to stunning. Stunning fist is also a limited resource, so you are not going to be able to use it in every attack, especially at lower levels. It also allows a fortitude save to ignore it. If you are focusing on stunning fist, you are probably taking mantis style. That would raise the DC of the example DEX based monk to 18. Looking over a bunch of CR 5 creatures I saw that most of them have a +9 fortitude save. That means that the stunning fist focused monk is only going to stun about 40% of those that are not immune to it. Without Mantis Style that drops down to 30%. The monk does have a better chance with lower CR creatures. But it does not make sense that you only use what is supposed to be your best attack on minions and cannot use it on the boss.
Using combat maneuvers on large powerful creatures does not work well. Since the DEX based monk does not deal a lot of damage how is he supposed to deal with a boss?
Since the DEX based monk does not deal a lot of damage how is he supposed to deal with a boss?
he ignores the boss, lets the fighter deal with it, he instead keeps the mooks off of the fighter.
That assumes that there is a fighter or other damaging martial character. It also assumes that there are mooks to deal with. What happens when the boss fight is a single big creature like a dragon or major demon? The DEX based monk contributes about as much to the party as a chained rogue with limited sources. The chained rogue can at least have decent social skills, the DEX based monk will not even have that.
That assumes that there is a fighter or other damaging martial character. It also assumes that there are mooks to deal with. What happens when the boss fight is a single big creature like a dragon or major demon? The DEX based monk contributes about as much to the party as a chained rogue with limited sources. The chained rogue can at least have decent social skills, the DEX based monk will not even have that.
then the monk becomes a flanking partner for the chained rogue who can deal a ton of sneak attack damage to that boss. The monks high dex will allow him to be missed more often, and to use acrobatics to maintain flanking position as the boss potentially moves.
Not every character can contribute to every encounter, There is always going to be an outlier type situation where they have nothing to do. Certain characters sometimes want to have nothing to do so they can conserve resources for when their tools can really shine (spell casters).
As long as a character can contribute something at least most of the time, it's ok if they can't contribute all of the time.
a monk can be seen to be easily within the Green (Diego Rossi's benchpressing) for armor.I don't disagree with what you wrote, but what are you referencing here? I don't recall ever giving a list of suggested values for ACs.
Ah actually it was Derklord who made the original Benchpressing sheets, I just remembered it was a D name and didn't check.
That assumes that there is a fighter or other damaging martial character. It also assumes that there are mooks to deal with. What happens when the boss fight is a single big creature like a dragon or major demon? The DEX based monk contributes about as much to the party as a chained rogue with limited sources. The chained rogue can at least have decent social skills, the DEX based monk will not even have that.
It's highly unlikely in a party of 4 you will have no other character meant for offensive melee damage. Even in the case there are no mooks, you can still provide flank (as TxSam said) or simply hitting the monster once is enough to force a save that both can eat the creature's entire turn until you can try it again and also makes it more vulnerable to damage (with a minimum -2 AC penalty even for 0 to negative Dex monsters).
It's highly unlikely in a party of 4 you will have no other character meant for offensive melee damage.
if they don't have something other than a monk meant for offensive melee damage, then the party deserves to get trounced.
Cleric can absolutely be as strong as a fighter in a melee capacity, they just aren't guaranteed to be built that way. Wizard can skill monkey both depending on school focus and skill selection itself, so that isn't a guarantee either. As such, I usually recommend people claim "party roles" (e.g. front line tank, crowd control, skills (both social and utility), buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.) with the idea that obviously not every role needs filled but if you can see what isn't filled, you can both pick a class that is generally good at what's missing but you can also adjust the build to cover some other things, again if you know what's missing.
While it is true that every character does not have to every encounter equally, they should be able to contribute equally to the overall success of the party. That means if they are lacking in certain type of encounters, they need to be able to contribute more in other types of encounters.
Let’s assume a 5th level party of 4 with a cleric, wizard and a unchained rogue in addition to the monk. Both the cleric and wizard are 9th level casters and what they contribute is fairly obvious. The rogue has lot of skills and is good at sneaking around. He also probably has fairly decent social skills, so can help the part that way. In combat rogue automatically gets weapon finesse and DEX to damage. Using a rapier gives him a decent chance to get a critical hit. Even without sneak attack he can contribute to combat. If he can get a sneak attack, he also is able to debilitate his foe. Rouge talents and rogues edge give him more utility. He takes trap spotter and fast stealth to be able to spot traps without searching and to move at full speed using stealth. Both the wizard and the cleric can summon creatures to give him a flanking buddy. He is in light armor and has excellent acrobatics, disable device, escape artist, perceptions and stealth rolls. A few points which he has to spare give him decent climb and swim as well. The monk makes a poor substitute for the rogue in this party.
What purpose of the fighter is to deal out large amounts of damage. This is true for any martial focused character although other martial classes sacrifice some damage for other abilities. The DEX/WIS
based monk does not fulfill this purpose and does not offer much to make him a valuable member of the party. Maneuverability in itself is worthless unless the maneuverable character can take advantage of being able to get into position. The DEX/WIS based monk is spending too many feats to get what the STR based monk gets for free. That leaves him with fewer feats to boost his value to the party.
There's the Waveblade, but it's a light weapon, which kills it for strength-based builds.
The Waveblade doesn't work with Ascetic Style? Why?
The Waveblade doesn't work with Ascetic Style? Why?
There's the Waveblade, but it's a light weapon, which kills it for strength-based builds.
It’s in the close weapon group, instead of the monk weapon group.
It's not listed as in the monk group on the official site, aonprd.com.
I don't own the paper version, so can't confirm who is right and who is wrong. I'm also not sure if the site supersedes the book, as it is a more recently updated official source.
Waveblade is in both the close and monk weapon groups.
And once again... d20pfsrd is not a reliable rules source, they change stuff.
the actual waveblade deets.
Waveblade is in both the close and monk weapon groups.And once again... d20pfsrd is not a reliable rules source, they change stuff.
the actual waveblade deets.
This. It literally says Monk in the description. That's why I was confused.
We still aren't sure which source is in error. Both sources say that the weapon has the monk weapon property. This is not in question. But the official source only lists the weapon as being in the fighter's close weapon group, so not in the fighter's monk weapon group.
The problem is that ascetic style references the fighter's monk weapon group and not the monk weapon property.
As a bit of an aside, the unchained monk class cares about the weapon property and not the fighter weapon group. So you can flurry with the waveblade just fine. It's just using ascetic style that gets weird.
Using a light weapon can make the DEX monk viable, but it is still at a disadvantage vs the STR based monk. It takes 3 extra feats (Weapon finesse, agile maneuvers and slashing grace) to achieve what the STR based monk gets for free. This is assuming the monk is taking weapon focus unarmed or it puts the DEX based monk 4 feats behind. Depending on the race this means the build does not come online until 3-7 level. A human could get DEX to damage by 3rd level, but a race without the bonus feat will not get that until 5th, then it will take 2 more levels to get agile maneuvers. If the monk is not going to be using combat maneuvers, they can skip the agile maneuvers. If the wave blade works with ascetic style that means still another feat the DEX based monk is going to want just to allow it to do what the STR based monk already does.
In the meantime, the STR based monk is using those feats to improve his abilities beyond the base class. For example, he could be taking dragon style and dragon ferocity, and power attack to increase his damage. He can also be using a two-handed weapon to increase his damage even higher. The unchained STR based monk using a Sansetsukon would be dealing 1d10+13 with a 20 STR and power attack, to the DEX based monks 1d6+5 using a wave blade.
If I go into a 3 people party, and the comp so far is wizard, monk, cleric I will probably be rolling a ranged skill monkey, as I would assume that utility and skill monkeying is needed.
You should never assume what a character can do solely based on class name.
I do wonder what utility you think is needed that two prepared full casters with the best respective arcane and divine spell lists in the game can't provide.
It literally says Monk in the description. That's why I was confused.
Not in the description, no. The only relation to monk it has is the special quality.
Ascetic Style asks for the weapon to be in the monk weapon group. It doesn't care about whether it has the monk special quality, nor what the description says. No part of the rules that doesn't say "monk weapon group" is relevant, because things that say "weapon group" only ever interact with other things that say "weapon group".
We still aren't sure which source is in error.
No, d20pfsrd.com is wrong.
The new weapons fall into the following weapon groups.
Axes: Boarding axe, butchering axe.
Blades, Heavy: Cutlass, sickle-sword, switchscythe.
Blades, Light: Drow razor, dueling dagger, sanpkhang,
spiral rapier.
Bows: Orc hornbow.
Close: Dwarven war-shield, tri-bladed katar, waveblade.
Double: Boarding gaff, chain-hammer, gnome battle ladder.
Flails: Cat-o’-nine-tails, dwarven dorn-dergar, flying talon.
Hammers: Chain-hammer, gnome piston maul, lantern staff.
Monk: Sanpkhang.
Polearms: Boarding gaff, fauchard, gnome ripsaw glaive.
Spears: Stormshaft javelin.
Thrown: Chain-hammer, dueling dagger, flask thrower,
stormshaft javelin.
if they don't have something other than a monk meant for offensive melee damage, then the party deserves to get trounced.
Everyone listen, the fun police has spoken!
It's telling that the people who claim Monk isn't good at dealing damage, and the people promoting dex-based Monk, are the same...
Not every character can contribute to every encounter
A well made character can. I mean, not every imaginable encounter, but it's not hard making characters that can meaningfully contribute to every encounter in an ordinary campaign. And while that's obviously not the only way to play, it does make for a stronger party than a combination of one-track specialists.
It's really neither of those things. It's just a different kind of game/class fantasy. Some people like being part of a larger whole. And some people want to do everything themselves. Pathfinder is capable of handling either kind of group and mixes of such players. Though there is certainly a bias towards certain kinds of hyper-specializing in Pathfinder.